Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again

[bonnevillemariner]

It would seem that many people who don't like Dennis' stuff completely miss that so much of POB and Bambu are the closest anyone got to the Pet Sounds/Smile Brian in the way the tracks are constructed...instruments layered, eclectic choices of instruments, arrangements avoiding a verse/chorus normality, great tags.

So you're saying if I just took a step back and realized that their approaches were similar, I'd start liking Dennis' stuff?  If they're so comparable, why do I perpetually have Pet Sounds/Smile songs in my head but must think hard to call a POB tune to mind?  

Again, I think there's a difference between appreciating music and liking music.  The more I learn about Smiley Smile, the more I appreciate it.  I still don't like it.  I don't appreciate Still Cruisin' and yet I really like it (that may actually be a good definition of 'guilty pleasure').  I appreciate classical music but I'll listen to just about anything instead.  If appreciation and liking happen to converge, great.  But it's certainly not a given.

[Jon Stebbins]

It would seem that many people who don't like Dennis' stuff completely miss that so much of POB and Bambu are the closest anyone got to the Pet Sounds/Smile Brian in the way the tracks are constructed...instruments layered, eclectic choices of instruments, arrangements avoiding a verse/chorus normality, great tags.

So you're saying if I just took a step back and realized that their approaches were similar, I'd start liking Dennis' stuff?  If they're so comparable, why do I perpetually have Pet Sounds/Smile songs in my head but must think hard to call a POB tune to mind?  

Again, I think there's a difference between appreciating music and liking music.  The more I learn about Smiley Smile, the more I appreciate it.  I still don't like it.  I don't appreciate Still Cruisin' and yet I really like it (that may actually be a good definition of 'guilty pleasure').  I appreciate classical music but I'll listen to just about anything instead.  If appreciation and liking happen to converge, great.  But it's certainly not a given.

I guess I'm saying I really love the way Brian constructs his tracks in the Pet Sounds/Smile period, there is so much innovation and out of the box thinking in his approach to making sound meld into something indescribably spiritual, I wish there was more of that type of organic approach around, and I did find more of it when i got into Dennis...he has a similar way of using the studio as an instrument of his creative process. He paints things with a Brian-like brush, and I'd assume most people who don't like Dennis do not because of his voice, or lyrics, or compositions, but underneath that there is something else of value that honors Brian in a way that IMO no one else nailed any better.

[bonnevillemariner]

I guess I'm saying I really love the way Brian constructs his tracks in the Pet Sounds/Smile period, there is so much innovation and out of the box thinking in his approach to making sound meld into something indescribably spiritual, I wish there was more of that type of organic approach around, and I did find more of it when i got into Dennis...he has a similar way of using the studio as an instrument of his creative process. He paints things with a Brian-like brush, and I'd assume most people who don't like Dennis do not because of his voice, or lyrics, or compositions, but underneath that there is something else of value that honors Brian in a way that IMO no one else nailed any better.

I hear you, Jon.

[shelter]

It would seem that many people who don't like Dennis' stuff completely miss that so much of POB and Bambu are the closest anyone got to the Pet Sounds/Smile Brian in the way the tracks are constructed...instruments layered, eclectic choices of instruments, arrangements avoiding a verse/chorus normality, great tags.

True. But above anything else it's the compositions that make Pet Sounds and Smile so great (at least IMO). And honestly I think that the compositions on POB (and Bambu) are not even close to being on the same level. I love almost every song that Dennis ever wrote for the Beach Boys, but I can't get into POB. It just won't grow on me.

[SMiLE Brian]

Same here, POB just doesn't do it for me. It seemed more interesting than it really is at first to the fans because it was so unavailable for listening before the CD set came out. (IMO)

[Mike's Beard]

I always felt POB suffered from pacing issues more than anything. Adding a few of the bonus tracks from the CD reissue in the place of a few of the lesser tracks makes for a much better record. I still can't get my head around the decision made all those years ago to cut Tug of Love from the final lineup.

[Mikie]

I just don't get why you guys don't get it. The day that POB came out, I took it home and after that, played it to death. Didn't even have to play it a few times to warm up to it. Loved it immediately. Even bought the 8-track for the car. My two friends (also big Beach Boys fans) also played that and "In Concert" over and over for a couple of years. "Put on Denny!", they'd say. We never got tired of it. Even played it (twice) at my New Year's party a few days after Dennis died. Everybody liked it. Still pull it out once in awhile and turn it up loud. Really good sh*t. Serious. Same with most of Bambu too, which I first heard some of in the 80's.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I've several friends who don't like the Beach Boys, who are baffled by my obsession, and who haven't liked anything I've given them to listen to, whether Sunflower or All Summer Long or Holland - however, they've all really liked POB. As indeed has everyone else I've given it too. My girlfriend adores it. My sister - a casual BB fan - played it to death when I got her it for her last birthday. It really seems that POB resonate with even those who dislike the band. Ironic then, that some BB obsessives don't much care for the album...

Personally, I agree with every post Jon Stebbins has written. It's an absolute cracker!

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Same here, POB just doesn't do it for me. It seemed more interesting than it really is at first to the fans because it was so unavailable for listening before the CD set came out. (IMO)

I love it. I don't approach the listening experience to POB like I do a BB album. It's a Dennis album and much more listenable to me than any other BB solo album.

[Jon Stebbins]

Its true that in general, and VERY generally speaking, that a certain vein of Beach Boys fans who really focus on the melodic, sweet, smooth harmony aspect of the Beach Boys tend to either not get, or not like Dennis' POB/Bambu era material. And at the same time many people who think that smooth sweet aspect of the Beach Boys is lame or annoying like Dennis' mid to late '70's thing. This has been proven by the performance of both the orig. POB release and the POB/Bambu reissue with non Beach Boys consumers. I've had a marketing person from Sony point this very thing out to me, Dennis crosses over in a way with younger people like Brian does, but with a more edgy or darker crowd. I've got the email i got around the time of the Sony release from their marketing dudes, I'll post it here if i find it...but the general gist was Dennis was picking up sales from people who like Coldplay, Snow Patrol, Radiohead etc... I don't listen to any of that BTW. But in general its a fact that Dennis stuff was on the fringe of being thought of as Beach Boys music.

[Mikie]

Guess I'm from the darker crowd.....   

[Jon Stebbins]

Guess I'm from the darker crowd.....   

Definitely...with all those tattoos and piercings...and the black clothes in 90 degree weather, you sneer at Hawaiian shirts.

[Mikie]

........with the black Harley and black leathers.......I fit right in, man.  Shirts off you motorcycle rider, night hider!! 

What's that feeling down inside of me?  Rock & Roll, food for the soul!!!

[monicker]

I wasn’t drawn to the Beach Boys, nor do i like them to this day, because of a “sweet” and “smooth” sound. It was/is because they’re so damn odd and unconventional in more ways than one. They’re truly one of a kind. I love all the paradoxes in their music. The arrangements, productions, and vocal harmonies are dense and powerful. The counterpoint is often jaw dropping. Everything comes together in such satisfying and amazing ways. There is an undeniable emotional and spiritual quality even in the songs that on the surface are about fluff. The music simultaneously possesses a joy, sadness, innocence, and sophistication. I don’t hear any of this in Dennis Wilson’s late music. Edgy and dark? Half of the music i listen to makes Dennis sound like nursery rhymes. I just think he’s cheesy and corny as hell. And on what planet is Coldplay, et al. considered “dark”?

I was just listening to Rachmaninoff’s 3rd piano concerto with its overwhelming, head-spinning cadenzas, those barrages of contrapuntal 16th note runs up and down the keyboard. Do i “get” it? No, i don’t. It goes over my head from a theory standpoint. Do i like it? I love it. Rachmaninoff, like Chopin, never seems technical to me. There is so much emotion felt even in something like an etude. It’s funny how the common argument is that you need to get something to be able to say that you dislike it, but not so to say that you like it. I have never once heard someone proclaim how much they love Beethoven’s 9th only to be questioned if they get it. I always place this argument in the same box with the “let’s see you do better” argument, to which i always tell people: when you walk out of the theater and decide you didn’t like the movie you just watched, should you be required to be a competent filmmaker in order to arrive at your opinion of a movie? Of course not. 

[pixletwin]

Well said monicker. 

[shelter]

Guess I'm from the darker crowd.....   

Definitely...with all those tattoos and piercings...and the black clothes in 90 degree weather, you sneer at Hawaiian shirts.

Funny thing is, I have quite some tattoos, I almost always wear black and I listen to a lot of "darker" music (punk,  hardcore, the "serious" singer/songwriters)... But I'll prefer Friends or Sunflower over POB any day of the week.

[Nicko1234]

Its true that in general, and VERY generally speaking, that a certain vein of Beach Boys fans who really focus on the melodic, sweet, smooth harmony aspect of the Beach Boys tend to either not get, or not like Dennis' POB/Bambu era material. And at the same time many people who think that smooth sweet aspect of the Beach Boys is lame or annoying like Dennis' mid to late '70's thing. This has been proven by the performance of both the orig. POB release and the POB/Bambu reissue with non Beach Boys consumers. I've had a marketing person from Sony point this very thing out to me, Dennis crosses over in a way with younger people like Brian does, but with a more edgy or darker crowd. I've got the email i got around the time of the Sony release from their marketing dudes, I'll post it here if i find it...but the general gist was Dennis was picking up sales from people who like Coldplay, Snow Patrol, Radiohead etc... I don't listen to any of that BTW. But in general its a fact that Dennis stuff was on the fringe of being thought of as Beach Boys music.

Coldplay are edgy???

[Loaf]

Its true that in general, and VERY generally speaking, that a certain vein of Beach Boys fans who really focus on the melodic, sweet, smooth harmony aspect of the Beach Boys tend to either not get, or not like Dennis' POB/Bambu era material. And at the same time many people who think that smooth sweet aspect of the Beach Boys is lame or annoying like Dennis' mid to late '70's thing. This has been proven by the performance of both the orig. POB release and the POB/Bambu reissue with non Beach Boys consumers. I've had a marketing person from Sony point this very thing out to me, Dennis crosses over in a way with younger people like Brian does, but with a more edgy or darker crowd. I've got the email i got around the time of the Sony release from their marketing dudes, I'll post it here if i find it...but the general gist was Dennis was picking up sales from people who like Coldplay, Snow Patrol, Radiohead etc... I don't listen to any of that BTW. But in general its a fact that Dennis stuff was on the fringe of being thought of as Beach Boys music.

Coldplay are edgy???

I agree with everything Jon's said so far (i love Dennis and Brian's music), but calling Coldplay and Snow Patrol edgy is to bring the lulz. Coldplay are perfectly spherical. To be fair to Jon, it appears that it was a 'marketing dude' who said this to him, and we all know what great taste those guys who work in marketing have... so i'll won't hold it against you, Jon

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I've seen Frisbees that are edgier than Coldplay. They're not edgy, they're just shite. Bland, unimaginative, whiney shite too.

[Generation42]

It would seem that many people who don't like Dennis' stuff completely miss that so much of POB and Bambu are the closest anyone got to the Pet Sounds/Smile Brian in the way the tracks are constructed...instruments layered, eclectic choices of instruments, arrangements avoiding a verse/chorus normality, great tags.

True. But above anything else it's the compositions that make Pet Sounds and Smile so great (at least IMO). And honestly I think that the compositions on POB (and Bambu) are not even close to being on the same level. I love almost every song that Dennis ever wrote for the Beach Boys, but I can't get into POB. It just won't grow on me.

I agree with almost everything here, except to say that I do enjoy POB.  That said, I believe, as you do, shelter, that the difference has always been the songs.  I enjoy a number of Dennis works, but few, in my opinion, can compare with the greatest of Brian's songs.

And incidentally, just because I find Dennis' admittedly fine work doesn't quite reach the same lofty heights as his older brother's, this should in no way imply that I am somehow wanting in the capacity to see the similarities between Dennis' approach to production and that of Brian's.  It only makes sense that, after years of absorbing his brother's successful tendencies, Dennis would aspire to something similar.  The people in Brian's circle were fortunate in that regard, they were able to learn from the best.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Coldplay is the opposite of being edgy "Oh what's hot in the moment, electro? cool let's go electro and make a duet with the hottest singer, Rihanna it is? ok let's do that".

[Mr. Cohen]

Dennis, at his best, was a ridiculously great raw talent. As someone mentioned earlier, some of the songs on POB aren't even really songs in a real traditional sense, but the rambling, impassioned outpourings of a tormented man. Like, "River Song." There's not a real formula to the song, although in it's constant movement has a quality to it akin to classical music, just not as deliberate. It's simply a dude with a really good musical ear letting it all hang loose, and it's glorious.  He does get a bit too indulgent on POB, and there are moments you can probably only truly enjoy if you've bought into the cult of the man - Dennis' biggest musical supporters also seem to be a big fan of him as a person, whereas people may be more indifferent to Mike Love but enjoy a good chunk of his work (even if it's just the second side of Today!, or something).

I do rank Dennis over Carl. Carl could write a darn good pop song when he was on, but he didn't seem to have that fifth gear his brothers had.

[Jon Stebbins]

Yeah...like I said i don't listen to those artists...I never called them edgy...but I tried to share that there was a marketing presence at Sony that noted that Dennis drew sales from a very non-Beach Boys demographic which he framed as being darker or edgier than the Beach Boys Kokomo Hawaiian shirt Country Club Full House demo.

[Sound of Free]

Dennis is a great "what if" in a sense. Obviously what if he didn't die so young, but what if his voice hadn't been ravaged by his own abuse and take a punch to the throat and also a savage beating. I think he was at his vocal peak from 1968-71 and it would have been great to hear the voice of Sound of Free singing POB. And what if he had either been able to stay focused on his own or kept people like Darryl Dragon or Gregg Jakobson to help keep him focused and bring the best out of him.

But while Dennis is far from a TOTAL "what if." He left behind some truly great music. He certainly was his own distinct presence from Brian, but you can't tell me that the guy who did THIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSiIHHOPULg

didn't learn a ton from his big brother.

[Wirestone]

He certainly was his own distinct presence from Brian, but you can't tell me that the guy who did THIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSiIHHOPULg

didn't learn a ton from his big brother.

That's pretty much all Van McCoy, though, right?