If the Beach Boys never existed...

[shelter]

Suppose that the Beach Boys never would have excisted as a group and that all the members would've been solo artists in the early 60s... Who would've made it?

I think Brian would've been succesful on his own as well. Until Smile he didn't really need anyone else.

Bruce probably could have been a fairly succesful solo artist in the 60s. He once said that being in the Beach Boys made him passive as a songwriter, that probably wouldn't have happened if he didn't join and I'm sure he would've had a couple of hits on his own.

I'm not sure about Dennis. Sure he turned into a good songwriter, but he was never able to write hits. And I don't think many people would've enjoyed his early 60s singing voice for the duration of an entire concert or album.

I'm also not sure about Carl. He couldn't write hits either. And besides that, I don't think a chubby guy like Carl would have been a teen idol in the 60s if he would've been a solo artist.

I think Al and Mike would never have made it on their own. Which certainly doesn't mean they're not talented musicians, I just don't think we would ever have heard of them if it wasn't for the Wilsons.

[Dancing Bear]

Who knows about Mike, Dennis, Carl and Al? Bruce wasn't a member of a group led by Brian Wilson till 1965, which moved him to develop as a producer and songwriter. Dave Marks too worked his chops far beyond what he would have if he hadn't left the group.

Now Brian... On his own, he could have quit if success hadn'y come right away like it happened with the Beach Boys. And he would probably have had a breakdown just after getting married, touring or no touring. The guy had issues that would chase him forever no matter what. Smile being shelved was just one more of those.

[Jon Stebbins]

Let me start this off by saying I'm a HUGE, HUGE fan of Brian and think he is among the greatest artists of our time...as a composer, arranger, producer he is nearly unequaled in the history of pop. Without a doubt the most original American artist ever. But now some reality. You are completely fooling yourself if you think Brian Wilson would have 'made it' without the Beach Boys as his vehicle to fame. The phenomenon of the Beach Boys gave Brian all of his cache, without it no one would have cared who he was. The particular elements that gelled into the BB's were essential to Brian finding his voice. Brian was an introvert. He needed Dennis for his connection to the culture. He needed Mike to put it across. He needed Carl and Al and David to add musicality and diverse influences to the pallette. If the BB's hadn't gone in a teen friendly direction in '62 they more than likely would never have been a hit. Brian wasn't first in line to push the thing into an electric direction. He was thinking Four Freshmen, Mike was thinking Coasters, together they thought Everly Brothers, Al was thinking Kingston Trio, Carl and David were thinking Chuck Berry, Dick Dale, Dennis was yelling about Surfing, Cars and Girls. Brian took all of that and made it work. Alone he never would have found it. You are really missing something fundamentally important to Brian's story if you think he didn't need anyone until SMILE. In fact you're nearly missing everything. Every element that made up the BB's was crucial. Finding huge fame and all that power was a major long shot and Brian isn't even close to the only reason they pulled it off. He's the biggest reason, the most important reason. but genius doesn't exist in a vacuum. without Surfin Safari, Surfin USA, Little Deuce Coupe, Surfer Girl, Fun, Fun, Fun and I Get Around etc...No one would have ever heard or cared about Pet sounds and Smile. That's the truth.

[PongHit]

What about Murry?  Don't you guys think he was important in the early days?

[Jon Stebbins]

What about Murry?  Don't you guys think he was important in the early days?

Absolutely. Huge. Crucial.

[mikee]

Well said Jon!

What about Murry? Don't you guys think he was important in the early days?

I have great respect for Murry in spite of all the negative lore.  It occurs to me that it was unusual for a kid in 1963 (even one with some hit singles) to demand the right to produce his own records and go outside the record company and use whatever studios he wanted.  I suspect that it wasn't Brian that put his nose in the record company execs face.  Jon was it Murry that secured these rights for his son?     

[Jon Stebbins]

Yes it was essentially Murry who applied the pressure, but i think he thought he was securing the rights for himself in a sense. Brian was the one with the insight that Western would give the BB's the sound "he" wanted, unlike the Capitol facility. But beyond that Murry and Brian battled each other in the studio for control of the BB's "sound", Brian had won that battle by the end of '63. Despite the inner friction...Murry was most important in that he never took a back seat to anyone, was never intimidated, never lost focus, and made the BB's everybody's priority. In the Lost Beach Boy book we clearly illustrate that Murry made the BB's a priority for Brian to a degree that went beyond what was probably good for Brian. Brian loved the creative process but his enthusiasm for the BB's ended there. Carl on the other hand was totally on Murry's "team". He knew the BB's had all gotten very lucky and even as a teenager he drove the guys in a quieter, yet equally focused way. I love the characters in this story!!

[shelter]

You are really missing something fundamentally important to Brian's story if you think he didn't need anyone until SMILE. In fact you're nearly missing everything.

No I didn't, I'm affraid you got me wrong here. I didn't mean to say that Brian could've done what the Beach Boys did on his own. Of course that's nonsense. My question was: if Carl, Dennis, Mike and Al would never have been born, would Brian have been able to make it as a solo artist? Of course he never would've reached the same level as the Beach Boys, but imagine Brian on his own in 1962 - would he have been succesful as a solo artist if he tried? He had the voice, he knew how to write a hit song, he had his dad to kick his ass, I think that if Brian would've been on his own from the start he wouldn't have been the Brian Wilson as we know him now, but I do think he would've left his mark on the music industry. And I'm not sure that same thing goes for the others. That was my point, sorry if that was unclear (I will once again account it to the fact that English isn't my first language  ).

[Jon Stebbins]

You are really missing something fundamentally important to Brian's story if you think he didn't need anyone until SMILE. In fact you're nearly missing everything.

No I didn't, I'm affraid you got me wrong here. I didn't mean to say that Brian could've done what the Beach Boys did on his own. Of course that's nonsense. My question was: if Carl, Dennis, Mike and Al would never have been born, would Brian have been able to make it as a solo artist? Of course he never would've reached the same level as the Beach Boys, but imagine Brian on his own in 1962 - would he have been succesful as a solo artist if he tried? He had the voice, he knew how to write a hit song, he had his dad to kick his ass, I think that if Brian would've been on his own from the start he wouldn't have been the Brian Wilson as we know him now, but I do think he would've left his mark on the music industry. And I'm not sure that same thing goes for the others. That was my point, sorry if that was unclear (I will once again account it to the fact that English isn't my first language  ).

You initiated a great topic. I don't think any of the BB's would have been anything close to what they are/were. Bruce would have had a career in music because he was already there. Brian may have gotten lucky again or independently of the BB's... who knows? He sure had a BIG gift. He had his brothers and dad to help him too. Carl was going to be good and consistent at whatever he did. Dennis was a social savant. He could have been president, or an actor, or a bum. probably the latter. He too had a BIG gift. Mike had a calculating sense...might have been a good evangelical preacher or snake oil salesmen. Al might have made a good 10th grade social studies teacher who sang in a folk group on the side. Dave would have been a jazz musician either way, and maybe a happier one if he hadn't been a Beach Boy.

[Chris Brown]

I think Brian could have made it, just not with the same sound as the BB.  The thing with Brian though is that he really needed a group to provide harmony for his songs.  I don't think Brian could have ever written solo songs only to be sung by him.  He was obsessed with harmony, and they probably would have been a part of his music regardless of whether or not he was a BB.  So I think if he had been able to find another group, he could have been successful.  Of course like Jon said, Murry's motivation was what really propelled Brian into being the hitmaker he became.  Without that, it's hard to say what might have happened to Brian.  No matter what, I think he would have found a way to become involved in the music business, maybe as a producer for other acts or just writing songs with others. 

Jon is right, this is a really interesting and great topic!

[endofposts]

I don't think Brian would have been a successful solo act.  His voice, outside of his falsetto, was not that great.  A good voice, but not as commercial as Mike Love's or Carl's.  Carl's voice was actually similar to Brians, but had a prettiness that Brian's natural voice lacked.  As great as Brian's falsetto was, a falsetto voice only really works in the context of a vocal group.  His lack of confidence as a performer is also life-long.  He looks uncomfortable in almost all his Beach Boys TV appearances.  Some of his outside production work is also essentially solo work (such as the Survivors), and none of those were hits.  I've read that it was because Murry sabotaged any chance they would get airplay, but to my ears, they are inferior to Brian's work with the Boys, mostly because they lack the harmonies of the Beach Boys. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Bruce wasn't a member of a group led by Brian Wilson till 1965, which moved him to develop as a producer and songwriter.

Bruce has a songwriting, recording and producing career that pre-dates not only The Beach Boys but also The Pendletones and very probably Carl & The Passions. He was using an 8-track recorder a good year before Brian was (in fact it was very likely at Bruce's urging that Brian used the Columbia console).

[the captain]

This is interesting.

I believe there is no way any of them would have individually ended up sounding anything like the Beach Boys. But I do believe that Brian might have used other people in the way he ended up using them to make some other interesting and great music. He was too good a musician not to find an outlet. Of course, the public is fickle, and it might not have caught on. But I believe he would have brought his interesting melodic and harmonic sense--not to mention production and arranging skills--to something good.

Bruce had and could have continued a career (if not a lucrative one) as a player and producer.

I severely doubt any of the others could have been successful solo artists without being a part of something else, bigger, first. All talented musicians, but lacking anything that would have allowed them that big break.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think Brian would've had a good shot at a career in music mainly because of WHERE he lived.

Brian lived near L.A., where there were many recording studios. I think Brian would've gravitated there as a session musician, session singer, engineer, producer, or songwriter.

Brian's stage fright and introverted personality might've prevented him from being a live performer; he would've been more comfortable behind the scenes.

If Brian would've ended up as a "studio rat", I could see Carl literally following in Brian's footsteps because Carl obviously had the talent. Actually, that is what happened in the Beach Boys - Carl following in Brian's footsteps...

[Amy B.]

I think Brian would have been a songwriter/producer who would have played piano and sung background on the records of people he produced. Wasn't he trying to move in that direction somewhat in the early 60s anyway? Plus, he has said he believes he is a better background singer than lead singer. 

[the captain]

Plus, he has said he believes he is a better background singer than lead singer. 

I actually think your post was pretty right-on...but as for the part I quoted, let's be honest--what HASN'T Brian said at one time or another?

[Emdeeh]

I think Brian, Carl, and Bruce would all have had careers in music, no matter what. Carl and Bruce would have been in-demand studio guys, if they didn't have road careers as well. I've often wondered if Brian might have headed towards a soundtrack career, in addition to producing and writing. I'd like to think Al would have had a musical career, as well -- his voice is too good to waste.

Truth is, if the Beach Boys had never existed, I wouldn't be on these message boards.

[Amy B.]

Plus, he has said he believes he is a better background singer than lead singer. 

I actually think your post was pretty right-on...but as for the part I quoted, let's be honest--what HASN'T Brian said at one time or another?

True, but I can see where he's coming from there. As has been pointed out on this thread, Brian did not have as compelling a lead voice as Carl or Mike. It doesn't mean his voice wasn't good (sometimes great, and I personally prefer it to Mike's by a country mile), but maybe it's not a natural lead voice. And he really is a great background singer.

[the captain]

I know. I was just having a little fun. 

[Amy B.]

I know. I was just having a little fun. 

Well, okay.    Didn't he talk about becoming a pro baseball player at some point in the 70s, or am I just making that up? I have this memory of reading a quote: "I really think I could make it in to the Majors" or some BS like that.

[Don't Back Down]

Yeah in the Endless Harmony bio-pic of the band they talked about how Brian was good at baseball in highschool (?) Dont know about him talking about it in the '70s

[NHC]

I know. I was just having a little fun. 

Well, okay.    Didn't he talk about becoming a pro baseball player at some point in the 70s, or am I just making that up? I have this memory of reading a quote: "I really think I could make it in to the Majors" or some BS like that.

In a Oui magazine interview, about late 1977-early '78, Brian "joked" about "maybe going out for major baseball" when asked about his earlier love of the game.  He talked about his getting healthy in '76 and all that.  Or maybe he wsn't "joking".  Who knew wi.th Brian - hard to tell if he was kidding, serious, deluded or just the still-reigning master of the great put-on when he came up with this stuff.

[NHC]

First of all, life wouldn't have been a tenth as much fun growing up in Northern California in the sixties like I did.

Seems like we've been down this road before as to what else the Boys might have done with their lives.  Brian - probably an award winning writer/arranger/producer most of all.  Nothing new there. Dennis,  who knows.  No high school diploma, no life direction. Would his music talent have even sufaced, much less developed? Not without Brian, I think. Could have been pretty rough for Denny, or, like so many, his life could have blossomed after a ragged start. Carl, maybe those guitar lessons with a Walker Brother might have got him into a group.  He told his gym teacher that "all he wanted to do ws learn how  to play this guitar". If that didn't pan out (we've all had THAT dream), like a poster said, he would have been good in one career or another because of his character and personality. Mike, like Dennis and Carl an indifferent (a civil term for "poor") student and no other career goals, would he ever have had the opportunity to sing without The Group?  Probably not.  Sheet metal for Mike without some unforseen life change coming down the pike.  Maybe a hobby-band singing doo-wop but not the Beach Boys renamed. And, since I actually AM a good evangelical minister who just got back from Bible study at his church, we'll leave the previously-posted snake oil salesman comment aside  = :  ). I'm sure Jon wasn't lumping tht two together! Al - remember, he was already forming groups and was a decent musician in his own right.  He was also major college material with an original goal of dental school.  Maybe not dentistry or 10th grade social studies with a weekend folk gig as previously offered, but something of a standard career with music quite possibly part of that.  Bruce had the career going before he even met the Boys.  Would he have developed that even more if he hadn't got sidetrackd, so to speak, with a major group gig? Strong chance of it. And David, at some point would more than likely followed his musical dream, even if the Beach Boys hadn't opened up that opportunity. Would it have been the same?  Of course not, and there is simply no over-estimating Brian's role in all this.  Without him . . . . . . .

But for us, it would have been awful (even if we never knew what we were missing)

[Aegir]

Yes, Bruce did have a career before he was in the Beach Boys.. of making music that sounded like Beach Boys music.. his pre-BBs career was just ripping off Brian and Mike's surfing and car songs. He probably would've still been in music, but what would it have sounded like?

[shelter]

Some of his outside production work is also essentially solo work (such as the Survivors), and none of those were hits.  I've read that it was because Murry sabotaged any chance they would get airplay, but to my ears, they are inferior to Brian's work with the Boys, mostly because they lack the harmonies of the Beach Boys. 

Or because he had to save his best songs and ideas for the Beach Boys and his outside projects got all the leftovers. And why the Survivors single didn't do anything is a mystery to me. I could name several early BB hits that are in my opinion not nearly as good as Pamela Jean.