CIFOTM: the case for a lost Brian-Dennis collaboration?

[juggler]

Of course, the conventional wisdom is that, until BWPS, "Child" was an instrumental track and a vocal chorus... and that's it. Period.

As I understand it, VDP has indicated that the 2004 verse lyrics were new and that he was unaware of anything else existing in 1966-67.

And yet... I'm not quite buying it...

A few things...

1.  The 1966 NME article: "I got a sneak preview of one of the tracks the previous night when Dennis played me a piano version of one track, Child is Father of the Man, a cowboy song, and then gave me the throwaway line of the year – "And this is a prayer I'm working on for it!"

Would Denny really bother to do piano demo of a "child-child-child-is-father-of the-man" snippet? Really? And, if he did, who in the hell would think it to be a sort of 'cowboy song'?  Now, I've heard the argument that the "cowboy song" was actually "Heroes and Villains."  Well, maybe, but the writer explicitly was under the impression of listening to "one track" not two.  Of all the Smile tracks that were allegedly more "complete" than Child, why did Denny pick this one to demo?

2.  In Part II of Paul Williams' late 1967 Crawdaddy interview of David Anderle, the pair are reminiscing about the various Smile tracks. Anderle rattles off a new titles and Williams states, "Child is Father of the Man." And Anderle says: "Which I understand will be on his next album. I just heard that from someone, I don't remember who told me."

Now, a couple things...  Paul Williams was a visitor to Brian's home during the Smile era and heard various acetates and live demos from Brian himself.  Would Paul remember a track and a chorus as one of the top Smile songs to call to mind?  And would Anderle believe it be near enough completion to go on the next album? The thing is, it sorta *was* on "his next album"... Friends.  Of course, Dennis recycled part of the track for "Little Bird."  But, again, we find a connection with Dennis.  Was it a situation in which Dennis intended to finish "Child," but for whatever reasons, changed his mind and just used part of it for Little Bird? 

3. We tend to think of VDP as *the* Smile lyricist, but just as Tony Asher didn't write lyrics for 6 of 14 Pet Sounds tracks, it's not unreasonable to suspect that Parks' lyrics would be absent from a similar share of Smile tracks.  For a long time, before BWPS, Parks was uncredited on Wind Chimes and Wonderful.  While the latter sounds like something he'd write, the former really doesn't.  If VDP's memory is accurate and he never wrote vintage CIFOTM verse lyrics, it's possible that it was a song for which Brian himself wrote the lyrics... perhaps intended for Dennis to sing lead.

4, The argument that  vintage CIFOTM verse lyrics would have surfaced by now if they ever existed is weak sauce, in my opinion.  If the Humble Harv demo had never surfaced, would anyone have the faintest idea what the I'm In Great Shape lyrics were?  If Frank Holmes hadn't preserved his notes, how much would be known of the Worms verse lyrics other than Brian throw-away singing a partial "once a upon the sandwich islands" during the track session?

[Julia]

It makes sense and would explain why that song doesn't seem to register in VDP's mind at all. In the 2005 book he said "I think that song was supposed to be an instrumental" which clearly it wasn't. The comparison with Tony Asher is a good point as well, also how they were able to finish their album in what two months or thereabouts? While VDP apparently lived at Brian's house during at least part of the '66 sessions and never finished a major song? This would explain why that might be.

4, The argument that  vintage CIFOTM verse lyrics would have surfaced by now if they ever existed is weak sauce, in my opinion.  If the Humble Harv demo had never surfaced, would anyone have the faintest idea what the I'm In Great Shape lyrics were?  If Frank Holmes hadn't preserved his notes, how much would be known of the Worms verse lyrics other than Brian throw-away singing a partial "once a upon the sandwich islands" during the track session?

I've said this but what I mean is, primarily, we aren't getting those lyrics either way. (Or its 99% certain we won't unless some random old diary shows up when they catalogue Brian's possessions.) I only came to that conclusion they were never written because as you say, I just assumed "VDP was the lyricist" and didn't think Dennis had even tried to write a song before Little Bird--which does use parts of Child but it hadn't occurred to me that meant that song was always "his" and Brian offering the recycled horn melody was honoring that rather than just recycling something he thought of as scrap by that time. It's a plausible theory that Dennis and Carl were being encouraged to stretch their wings at this time, primarily by producing their first tracks and sure, why not songwriting as part of that too? (Carl, not trying to belabor the point too much but he wasn't as good at songwriting as his bros, it makes sense Dennis would come into this skill earlier than he...or maybe Carl wrote secret lyrics to Look we'll never hear unless we find that damned tape, who knows?)  

As I understand it, VDP has indicated that the 2004 verse lyrics were new and that he was unaware of anything else existing in 1966-67.

He has, but he does say he gave Brian the chorus lyric as a way to express "When I Grow Up to be a Man" in a more poetic, psychedelic manner.

[BJL]

Of course, the conventional wisdom is that, until BWPS, "Child" was an instrumental track and a vocal chorus... and that's it. Period.

As I understand it, VDP has indicated that the 2004 verse lyrics were new and that he was unaware of anything else existing in 1966-67.

And yet... I'm not quite buying it...

A few things...

1.  The 1966 NME article: "I got a sneak preview of one of the tracks the previous night when Dennis played me a piano version of one track, Child is Father of the Man, a cowboy song, and then gave me the throwaway line of the year – "And this is a prayer I'm working on for it!"

Would Denny really bother to do piano demo of a "child-child-child-is-father-of the-man" snippet? Really? And, if he did, who in the hell would think it to be a sort of 'cowboy song'?  Now, I've heard the argument that the "cowboy song" was actually "Heroes and Villains."  Well, maybe, but the writer explicitly was under the impression of listening to "one track" not two.  Of all the Smile tracks that were allegedly more "complete" than Child, why did Denny pick this one to demo?

2.  In Part II of Paul Williams' late 1967 Crawdaddy interview of David Anderle, the pair are reminiscing about the various Smile tracks. Anderle rattles off a new titles and Williams states, "Child is Father of the Man." And Anderle says: "Which I understand will be on his next album. I just heard that from someone, I don't remember who told me."

Now, a couple things...  Paul Williams was a visitor to Brian's home during the Smile era and heard various acetates and live demos from Brian himself.  Would Paul remember a track and a chorus as one of the top Smile songs to call to mind?  And would Anderle believe it be near enough completion to go on the next album? The thing is, it sorta *was* on "his next album"... Friends.  Of course, Dennis recycled part of the track for "Little Bird."  But, again, we find a connection with Dennis.  Was it a situation in which Dennis intended to finish "Child," but for whatever reasons, changed his mind and just used part of it for Little Bird? 

3. We tend to think of VDP as *the* Smile lyricist, but just as Tony Asher didn't write lyrics for 6 of 14 Pet Sounds tracks, it's not unreasonable to suspect that Parks' lyrics would be absent from a similar share of Smile tracks.  For a long time, before BWPS, Parks was uncredited on Wind Chimes and Wonderful.  While the latter sounds like something he'd write, the former really doesn't.  If VDP's memory is accurate and he never wrote vintage CIFOTM verse lyrics, it's possible that it was a song for which Brian himself wrote the lyrics... perhaps intended for Dennis to sing lead.

4, The argument that  vintage CIFOTM verse lyrics would have surfaced by now if they ever existed is weak sauce, in my opinion.  If the Humble Harv demo had never surfaced, would anyone have the faintest idea what the I'm In Great Shape lyrics were?  If Frank Holmes hadn't preserved his notes, how much would be known of the Worms verse lyrics other than Brian throw-away singing a partial "once a upon the sandwich islands" during the track session?

Re: the Dennis aspect, there's maybe something to it, though it doesn't necessarily fit all that well with what we know about how Little Bird was written. According to Kalinich (in the Dillon book), he came up with the idea for Little Bird, wrote the lyrics, and left them on Dennis's piano. Dennis wrote the music and melody, but Brian rewrote the song when he did the production. In Kalinich's words: "I always claimed Brian wrote the bridge and changed my words around, but he also changed the whole melody. I talked to Brian recently and he said, 'Well, I touched it up, arranged it and produced it.' So he calls that an arrangement, but it's really a rewrite. Brian didn't take credit. He was trying to help his little brother."

This doesn't really sound to me like Dennis thinking back to a song he was more than passingly involved with in the mid-60s, and much more like Brian bringing in some old Smile ideas as he reworked Dennis and Steve's song. Although that said, the fact that Dennis learned the song on the piano in the mid-60s does suggest at the very least that it made a notably strong impression on him, so maybe he did borrow from it a little when he set Steve's poem to music, and that's what prompted Brian to bring in the arrangement ideas.

I do feel strongly that the most logical explanation for the cowboy song comment is that Dennis played the verses on the piano in a way that emphasized the loping bass line in the left hand, and that this sounded to the reporter like cowboy music, an image probably encouraged in the reporter's mind by Dennis describing other songs with an old west theme.

And sure, I think it's perfectly plausible that Brian was working on lyrics in the mid-60s himself. I've always sort of doubted that Van Dyke Parks contributed all that much to Wind Chimes... it just feels so much more Brian than Van Dyke, although I certainly can't say he didn't have a hand in it. And despite the dodgy Mike precedent, I don't really think Brian would have let Smiley Smile go out with Van Dyke not credited if he didn't feel that at least the spirit and larger share of it was his. In any case, Brian was a perfectly capable lyricist, who very frequently did the music himself but collaborated on the lyrics with his co-writer (the recently posted Don't Talk sessionography notes that Tony Asher distinctly remembers Brian writing the line “Don’t talk, take my hand, and listen to my heart beat," for example) I wouldn't be at all surprised if Brian had full or partial verse lyrics at some point. But I really don't think there was anything like a finished song, because *no one* remembers hearing verses, there's no evidence of their existence anywhere. And it's just hard for me to imagine that a major piece of lyrical work, which is definitely, in my view, what the music seems to call for, would surely have stuck with *someone* if they ever left Brian's mind in any kind of complete or sustained way?

[juggler]

Good points, thank you both.

I guess I just do have a continuing quibble with the logic of "no one remembers it," "no one heard it in such a way that it stuck with them," "no one ever wrote it down," "no recording of it has ever surfaced"... ERGO... "it never existed."   The reason, again... it just seems like such random, dumb (-angel) luck that we know certain other Smile lyrics such as those of "I'm in Great Shape."  I'm old enough and a long term fan enough to confidently say that for 31+ years of Smile lore... until 1998 when the Humble Harv demo was found, no one, including Brian Wilson and all relevant Smile associates, ever suggested that IIGS lyrics existed (other than a few people mistakenly believing that the "eat a lot, sleep a lot" lyrics from Vegatables/Mama Says might be IIGS).

[BJL]

Good points, thank you both.

I guess I just do have a continuing quibble with the logic of "no one remembers it," "no one heard it in such a way that it stuck with them," "no one ever wrote it down," "no recording of it has ever surfaced"... ERGO... "it never existed."   The reason, again... it just seems like such random, dumb (-angel) luck that we know certain other Smile lyrics such as those of "I'm in Great Shape."  I'm old enough and a long term fan enough to confidently say that for 31+ years of Smile lore... until 1998 when the Humble Harv demo was found, no one, including Brian Wilson and all relevant Smile associates, ever suggested that IIGS lyrics existed (other than a few people mistakenly believing that the "eat a lot, sleep a lot" lyrics from Vegatables/Mama Says might be IIGS).

It's a genuinely good point, and I don't disagree entirely. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't be the least surprised if four or five lines of Child is the Father of the Man suddenly appeared, though now that the surviving material has been so well examined, it seems increasingly unlikely. Certainly, we have no evidence that lyrics *weren't* written by someone other than Van Dyke Parks, although I think Park's words establish fairly clearly that he didn't write them, and since he apparently came up with the title, it would be a little strange for Brian to turn to someone else. But maybe not that strange, after all, as Julia's has repeatedly expresses, it is pretty strange that Van Dyke Parks didn't finish his work on the album in all that time, by all accounts. In any case, you are absolutely right that absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

But that snippet of I'm in Great Shape didn't really solve the mystery of what exactly I'm In Great Shape would be at all. We still don't really understand the song, how it evolved, or how it related to the other fragments. It seems unlikely to me (not impossible, certainly!) that the lyrics of Child were actually finished, in the sense that were they to be found, we would have a completed song that made sense, because it's such an important piece of music, and Brian devoted so much time to it, that it seems like if the lyrics were done someone would have had an inkling. On the other hand, it feels perfectly plausible that more was done than we know about.

[juggler]

In Tom Nolan's long piece "The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music" (LA Times magazine, November 27, 1966, as reproduced on LLVS, p. 169), Brian Wilson is quoted saying the following:  "And another thing that interests me... who was it, Karl Menninger, who said, 'The child is father of the man'? That fascinates me! Anyway, that's another song, Father of the Man."

Let's parse these statements. Frist, Brian credits the saying not to Wordsworth nor to VDP but rather to psychiatrist Karl Menninger.  I have no idea if Menninger ever used the saying or quoted Wordsworth or if Brian is just off-base, but Menninger did write a lot on the subjets of child psychology and child development, so Brian's attribution isn't insane.  The fact is that BW had an interest in psychology, was apparently an avid reader and often mentioned that he was studying psychology courses at El Camino Junior Colelge before he dropped out to do the Beach Boys.  It's very possible that VDP truly suggested the CIFOTM title, just as it's very possible that he suggested the cellos on Good Vibrations. But note that Brian says, That fascinates me!"  ME, not my friend Van Dyke Parks.  The other interesting thing is that this Brian says, "[T]hat's another song."   SONG, not track, not half-baked fragment, not chorus but SONG. In fact "Good Vibrations" and "Father of the Man" are the only specific songs mentioned by Brian in that piece.

 I'll put forth the hypothesis that in the fall of 1966, CIFOTM was a more fully realized song (probably with verse lyrics) at least in the mind of Brian Wilson. And Brian was likely demo-ing it to Dennis and others. The instrumental track of course was recorded along with the chorus vocals.   And then, for whatever, reasons the lead vocal didn't make it onto tape, Smile collapsed in the spring of '67, and the lyrics were lost and/or forgotten.

[BJL]

In Tom Nolan's long piece "The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music" (LA Times magazine, November 27, 1966, as reproduced on LLVS, p. 169), Brian Wilson is quoted saying the following:  "And another thing that interests me... who was it, Karl Menninger, who said, 'The child is father of the man'? That fascinates me! Anyway, that's another song, Father of the Man."

Let's parse these statements. Frist, Brian credits the saying not to Wordsworth nor to VDP but rather to psychiatrist Karl Menninger.  I have no idea if Menninger ever used the saying or quoted Wordsworth or if Brian is just off-base, but Menninger did write a lot on the subjets of child psychology and child development, so Brian's attribution isn't insane.  The fact is that BW had an interest in psychology, was apparently an avid reader and often mentioned that he was studying psychology courses at El Camino Junior Colelge before he dropped out to do the Beach Boys.  It's very possible that VDP truly suggested the CIFOTM title, just as it's very possible that he suggested the cellos on Good Vibrations. But note that Brian says, That fascinates me!"  ME, not my friend Van Dyke Parks.  The other interesting thing is that this Brian says, "[T]hat's another song."   SONG, not track, not half-baked fragment, not chorus but SONG. In fact "Good Vibrations" and "Father of the Man" are the only specific songs mentioned by Brian in that piece.

 I'll put forth the hypothesis that in the fall of 1966, CIFOTM was a more fully realized song (probably with verse lyrics) at least in the mind of Brian Wilson. And Brian was likely demo-ing it to Dennis and others. The instrumental track of course was recorded along with the chorus vocals.   And then, for whatever, reasons the lead vocal didn't make it onto tape, Smile collapsed in the spring of '67, and the lyrics were lost and/or forgotten.

I agree with every word of this, except for the insinuation that the lyrics had to exist in anything like a finished form for all of this to be true. I think Brian *absolutely* conceived of Child as a song, and (unlike the impression I get from some of the Heroes / I'm in Great Shape / Elements related pieces), it feels to me like the track mix Brian did at the time represented his intentions, which was for a 3 minute song with verses and a chorus. I just don't think he needed to have finished verse lyrics to think about it that way. Brian had demoed, tracked, and otherwise highly developed songs that didn't have full lyrics yet before. It wasn't the most common way he worked, but it wasn't unheard of either.

That said, I'm more persuaded than I was, certainly, that maybe the lyrics were as likely to have existed in some form as to never have been written, that maybe we just can't know. But I don't think I can be persuaded all the way across to it being more likely they existed than not!

[Julia]

Honestly, I like this theory a lot the more I think about it. It could've been Brian trying out Dennis as a collaborator to see what he's got. (Wild Honey was probably something similar with Carl.)

I like to think the lyrics about psychology (per Brian's book) would've been a shared bonding moment over their recurring trauma with their Dad, and/or a promise that the next generation can be better, they themselves and their children to come.

I cant recall any other Beach Boy or VDP opting to talk about CIFOTM except Dennis--if Im wrong, let me know I'm curious.

[juggler]

Thanks, Julia.   It's taken as conventional wisdom based, not only on Brian's decades-long statements but only interviews from the likes of Anderle and other Vosse posse types, that Brian encountered "resistance" to Smile from the rest of the group.  But how does that jive with Denny's boundless enthusiasm about the album in fall '66?   "It's so good it makes Pet Sounds stink" etc.   For whatever reason, Denny's presence on Pet Sounds was fairly minimal, but he's all over the Smile vocal sessions and extant lead vocals.  For a long time, I took Denny's "And this is a prayer I'm working on for it!" line as a dubious boast of a younger brother who may have been attempting to over-emphasize his creative contributions to the group.   But then it occurred to me, what if it wasn't?  The fact is that Denny's 1/12/67 "I Don't Know" session with Brian's regular studio people (Carol K, Lyle R, Bill Pitman etc.) is indicative that his claims about creative involvement weren't just idle talk.

[WillJC]

Seconding all that BJL's said on this one. But, honestly, that brief aside in NME is so devoid of context that I think it's near enough worthless in trying to figure out anything of substance. Did Dennis give one title and play something else? Did "cowboy song" come from a lyrical theme or the mood of the music or a description of the Morricone-like trumpet line or a general comment about various songs for the album? What does throwaway line "and this is a prayer I'm working on for it" even mean?! Dennis could've said that at some point in the conversation for like, 600 different reasons. He's Dennis Wilson. It's so vague!

Van Dyke Parks gave a comparably vague note on this but I don't think it was he who suggested the title. The quote given to Domenic Priore: "Brian had a fervent desire to re-invent himself as an individual, not as a boy, and that’s what happened, I think. By the time I met him, he had already done 'When I Grow Up (to Be a Man)'; he’d already raised those questions about being a man, and when I met him, that crisis was acute. I knew it was psychologically complex and over my head. The only way I could help with any of this, whatever it was he was going through, was refer him to that poem by Hawthorne [sic - misprint?] from which the phrase 'the child is father to the man' comes. He used it as part of his inquiry of Smile, as a lyric. It was an instrumental piece until Brian asked me to put some words on it in November of 2003." Elsewhere in the text, Van Dyke does correctly name Wordsworth and recite from My Heart Leaps Up.

I believe what he meant, in a muddled, Van Dyke-ish way, is that at some point while working together he referred Brian to the Wordsworth poem from which the phrase actually originated, as Brian had already been using the title for a song and mistakenly attributing it to Karl Menninger. It was a title Brian mentioned to Tom Nolan in early August 1966, weeks before he and Van Dyke started writing together.

The section in Little Bird that lifts the trumpet line and drum figure from Child is Father of the Man was Brian's doing. A lot of that song was ultimately written by Brian, as well as it being his arrangement and production.

[Julia]

I believe what he meant, in a muddled, Van Dyke-ish way, is that at some point while working together he referred Brian to the Wordsworth poem from which the phrase actually originated, as Brian had already been using the title for a song and mistakenly attributing it to Karl Menninger. It was a title Brian mentioned to Tom Nolan in early August 1966, weeks before he and Van Dyke started writing together.

Can you clarify this point please, because it's something Ive been confused on, when VDP and Brian started working together exactly. I'd assumed it was around May '66 because Badman says so (flawed source I know, and this may be another example) plus the earliest H&V recording made me think it may've been before then. Also I can double check it if challenged but I thought the 2005 book has Frank Homes claiming he was given the job in June thanks to Van, and the three of them spoke in that month to tell him enough about the album to inspire a cover. For me, the question of "when exactly did VDP start working with Brian" is one of those simple things you'd think would have a simple answer, but like so much else it just doesn't.

Did Brian and VDP not write together until AFTER August? Does that mean WC really was solely, (or originally) Brian despite what Van claimed in 2003? You say weeks...so is it September or October they start together, and how do you know?

[WillJC]

I believe what he meant, in a muddled, Van Dyke-ish way, is that at some point while working together he referred Brian to the Wordsworth poem from which the phrase actually originated, as Brian had already been using the title for a song and mistakenly attributing it to Karl Menninger. It was a title Brian mentioned to Tom Nolan in early August 1966, weeks before he and Van Dyke started writing together.

Can you clarify this point please, because it's something Ive been confused on, when VDP and Brian started working together exactly. I'd assumed it was around May '66 because Badman says so (flawed source I know, and this may be another example) plus the earliest H&V recording made me think it may've been before then. Also I can double check it if challenged but I thought the 2005 book has Frank Homes claiming he was given the job in June thanks to Van, and the three of them spoke in that month to tell him enough about the album to inspire a cover. For me, the question of "when exactly did VDP start working with Brian" is one of those simple things you'd think would have a simple answer, but like so much else it just doesn't.

Did Brian and VDP not write together until AFTER August? Does that mean WC really was solely, (or originally) Brian despite what Van claimed in 2003? You say weeks...so is it September or October they start together, and how do you know?

It was in a small window between the last couple of weeks in August and the first couple of weeks in September. There's good evidence for the case that it was shortly before August 25, and there's another argument to be made that it was shortly after September 8, though I tend to believe the former. That timeframe is supported by the recollections of Frank Holmes, Michael Vosse and Derek Taylor, and most solidly from Cam Mott's detailed correspondences with Frank and the Otis Art Institute in 1998-2001 to nail down exactly when the drawings were commissioned relative to the beginning of the songwriting (it had only just started). When Tom Nolan interviewed Brian circa August 12, the album title was still Dumb Angel and there was no mention of a collaborator in the picture. The first session for Wind Chimes on August 3 and the original missing-tape tracking session for Heroes and Villains on May 11 were almost certainly before Van Dyke had any writing involvement.

[Don Malcolm]

I believe what he meant, in a muddled, Van Dyke-ish way, is that at some point while working together he referred Brian to the Wordsworth poem from which the phrase actually originated, as Brian had already been using the title for a song and mistakenly attributing it to Karl Menninger. It was a title Brian mentioned to Tom Nolan in early August 1966, weeks before he and Van Dyke started writing together.

Can you clarify this point please, because it's something Ive been confused on, when VDP and Brian started working together exactly. I'd assumed it was around May '66 because Badman says so (flawed source I know, and this may be another example) plus the earliest H&V recording made me think it may've been before then. Also I can double check it if challenged but I thought the 2005 book has Frank Homes claiming he was given the job in June thanks to Van, and the three of them spoke in that month to tell him enough about the album to inspire a cover. For me, the question of "when exactly did VDP start working with Brian" is one of those simple things you'd think would have a simple answer, but like so much else it just doesn't.

Did Brian and VDP not write together until AFTER August? Does that mean WC really was solely, (or originally) Brian despite what Van claimed in 2003? You say weeks...so is it September or October they start together, and how do you know?

It was in a small window between the last couple of weeks in August and the first couple of weeks in September. There's good evidence for the case that it was shortly before August 25, and there's another argument to be made that it was shortly after September 8, though I tend to believe the former. That timeframe is supported by the recollections of Frank Holmes, Michael Vosse and Derek Taylor, and most solidly from Cam Mott's detailed correspondences with Frank and the Otis Art Institute in 1998-2001 to nail down exactly when the drawings were commissioned relative to the beginning of the songwriting (it had only just started). When Tom Nolan interviewed Brian circa August 12, the album title was still Dumb Angel and there was no mention of a collaborator in the picture. The first session for Wind Chimes on August 3 and the original missing-tape tracking session for Heroes and Villains on May 11 were almost certainly before Van Dyke had any writing involvement.

At Bellagio, AGD has a session for "Wonderful" and "He Gives Speeches" (two tracks we know VDP was involved with lyrically) on August 25; that suggests that Brian and VDP had been working together for at least some amount of time prior to that. Their anecdotal recollections suggest that these two were not the first tracks that they worked on together, so it would seem plausible that it could have been shortly after the "Wind Chimes" session on August 3.

As for VDP and his credit on "Wind Chimes"--possibly he touched up some lyrics prior to the October 10 session where vocals were recorded?

[BJL]

And despite the dodgy Mike precedent, I don't really think Brian would have let Smiley Smile go out with Van Dyke not credited if he didn't feel that at least the spirit and larger share of it was his.

I have to take this back; I'd forgotten Brian didn't credit Parks for Wonderful, either. Ouch.

[WillJC]

I believe what he meant, in a muddled, Van Dyke-ish way, is that at some point while working together he referred Brian to the Wordsworth poem from which the phrase actually originated, as Brian had already been using the title for a song and mistakenly attributing it to Karl Menninger. It was a title Brian mentioned to Tom Nolan in early August 1966, weeks before he and Van Dyke started writing together.

Can you clarify this point please, because it's something Ive been confused on, when VDP and Brian started working together exactly. I'd assumed it was around May '66 because Badman says so (flawed source I know, and this may be another example) plus the earliest H&V recording made me think it may've been before then. Also I can double check it if challenged but I thought the 2005 book has Frank Homes claiming he was given the job in June thanks to Van, and the three of them spoke in that month to tell him enough about the album to inspire a cover. For me, the question of "when exactly did VDP start working with Brian" is one of those simple things you'd think would have a simple answer, but like so much else it just doesn't.

Did Brian and VDP not write together until AFTER August? Does that mean WC really was solely, (or originally) Brian despite what Van claimed in 2003? You say weeks...so is it September or October they start together, and how do you know?

It was in a small window between the last couple of weeks in August and the first couple of weeks in September. There's good evidence for the case that it was shortly before August 25, and there's another argument to be made that it was shortly after September 8, though I tend to believe the former. That timeframe is supported by the recollections of Frank Holmes, Michael Vosse and Derek Taylor, and most solidly from Cam Mott's detailed correspondences with Frank and the Otis Art Institute in 1998-2001 to nail down exactly when the drawings were commissioned relative to the beginning of the songwriting (it had only just started). When Tom Nolan interviewed Brian circa August 12, the album title was still Dumb Angel and there was no mention of a collaborator in the picture. The first session for Wind Chimes on August 3 and the original missing-tape tracking session for Heroes and Villains on May 11 were almost certainly before Van Dyke had any writing involvement.

At Bellagio, AGD has a session for "Wonderful" and "He Gives Speeches" (two tracks we know VDP was involved with lyrically) on August 25; that suggests that Brian and VDP had been working together for at least some amount of time prior to that. Their anecdotal recollections suggest that these two were not the first tracks that they worked on together, so it would seem plausible that it could have been shortly after the "Wind Chimes" session on August 3.

As for VDP and his credit on "Wind Chimes"--possibly he touched up some lyrics prior to the October 10 session where vocals were recorded?

It wasn't unusual at all for Brian to record a track having a title, a melody, and a handful of lines, so that doesn't necessarily correlate to anything. But there is very good reason to believe Wonderful and Persuasion didn't exist at all before Van Dyke was involved, with those being the likely first session after they started writing together.

I'm sure Van Dyke wrote all or most of the lyrics to Wind Chimes after Brian's opening line.

[juggler]

I'm sure Van Dyke wrote all or most of the lyrics to Wind Chimes after Brian's opening line.

You're sure of this because why?  

So, on Smiley Smile, Brian and Murry simply stiffed VDP on Wind Chimes despite crediting him on H&V, Vegetables and She's Goin' Bald?  

 It's my understanding that VDP wasn't originally credited for Wonderful but that was corrected by at least 1990 when my Smiley-Smile Wild Honey CD was released, and yet VDP wasn't on WC until BWPS when he was pretty much added to everything except Fire and the covers like Sunshine/Master Painter etc.

I don't know.  In my opinion the WC lyrics are pretty straight-ahead, more in line with Brian's writing of that vintage on Time to Get Alone and various Friends tracks than the punny, flowery and baroque lyrics that VDP was writing for Smile and Song Cycle.  Even Well, You're Welcome is more punny than Wind Chimes, and VDP wasn't credited on that either.

[WillJC]

I'm sure Van Dyke wrote all or most of the lyrics to Wind Chimes after Brian's opening line.

You're sure of this because why?  

So, on Smiley Smile, Brian and Murry simply stiffed VDP on Wind Chimes despite crediting him on H&V, Vegetables and She's Goin' Bald?  

 It's my understanding that VDP wasn't originally credited for Wonderful but that was corrected by at least 1990 when my Smiley-Smile Wild Honey CD was released, and yet VDP wasn't on WC until BWPS when he was pretty much added to everything except Fire and the covers like Sunshine/Master Painter etc.

I don't know.  In my opinion the WC lyrics are pretty straight-ahead, more in line with Brian's writing of that vintage on Time to Get Alone and various Friends tracks than the punny, flowery and baroque lyrics that VDP was writing for Smile and Song Cycle.  Even Well, You're Welcome is more punny than Wind Chimes, and VDP wasn't credited on that either.

Because he said directly that he wrote those lyrics. It isn't a wild leap to... believe a thing he said, which actually did result in the publishing being amended. But yes, Parks was shafted over the Wonderful credit in 1967 in an identical way. That his name was added to one song in 1990 is immaterial to the fact that his name was omitted from both when they were originally copyrighted. Beyond that, Michael Vosse in Fusion referred to Wind Chimes as a song Brian and Van Dyke had done together, and Van Dyke included the title on a handwritten list of their songs-in-progress in 1966.

[Julia]

It was in a small window between the last couple of weeks in August and the first couple of weeks in September. There's good evidence for the case that it was shortly before August 25, and there's another argument to be made that it was shortly after September 8, though I tend to believe the former. That timeframe is supported by the recollections of Frank Holmes, Michael Vosse and Derek Taylor, and most solidly from Cam Mott's detailed correspondences with Frank and the Otis Art Institute in 1998-2001 to nail down exactly when the drawings were commissioned relative to the beginning of the songwriting (it had only just started). When Tom Nolan interviewed Brian circa August 12, the album title was still Dumb Angel and there was no mention of a collaborator in the picture. The first session for Wind Chimes on August 3 and the original missing-tape tracking session for Heroes and Villains on May 11 were almost certainly before Van Dyke had any writing involvement.

At Bellagio, AGD has a session for "Wonderful" and "He Gives Speeches" (two tracks we know VDP was involved with lyrically) on August 25; that suggests that Brian and VDP had been working together for at least some amount of time prior to that. Their anecdotal recollections suggest that these two were not the first tracks that they worked on together, so it would seem plausible that it could have been shortly after the "Wind Chimes" session on August 3.

As for VDP and his credit on "Wind Chimes"--possibly he touched up some lyrics prior to the October 10 session where vocals were recorded?

Im gonna reply to both the comments in this quote chain simultaneously.

I've always had issues with the May/June date of their collaboration starting because with that much more time together, it raises more questions like "how did CIFOTM and Look not get done?" (though juggler's theory may provide an elegant solution) and "why was Van seemingly out of the loop of what SMiLE was if he spent ~7 months working with Brian on it?"

The thought that they actually started in August/September answers these problems well enough but in typical SMiLE fashion it raises other issues. Then what was the first Heroes session? Just a series of variations on OMP/YAMS? (There's an account that says exactly that, but how would that work and why was it called H&V?) How/why did they start recording Look, Holidays, Wind Chimes & He Gives Speeches instead of Heroes, Surf, Wonderful & CE despite them always saying those were the first four songs? If Brian gave Van finished backing tracks to write to, that's not explicitly mentioned anywhere, which doesn't mean it didn't happen necessarily but it's a stretch.

The clear impression is always that Van came over, they got stoned and sat at the piano writing side by side, melody and lyric influencing one another in a flurry of "give and take" activity. I always assumed Wind Chimes was a spur of the moment recording rushed to the studio to coincide with that sudden burst of inspiration after that shopping trip. Then, it was on to recording the tracks they wrote together as Brian finalized the arrangements. (So, even though Heroes and Surf were first written on the page, they were recorded later as Brian needed time to find the right blend of instrumental parts, while something like CIFOTM took precedence in the studio because Brian thought of a fully arranged melody even before lyrics were done.)

Between the two dates you give, I say the sooner the better for these reasons. But unless you're willing or able to tell us exactly what evidence you're looking at to peg it down to ~Aug 25, I hope you won't take it personally if I remain somewhat skeptical. Without seeing what you're seeing, I'm leaning towards late July or perhaps early August. Do we know which GV session Van recommended the cello triplets on? Because it was probably soon after that, and Im thinking that's June-July (by August GV was essentially over). Also, how does this affect Frank Holmes? He still could've delivered the cover by sometime in October, and I'd argue the new cover art was a not insignificant impetus to change the album's name to SMiLE, which inspired or coincided with the sudden burst of comedy recordings in very late Oct through November. But the man does say it was June where he was given the job by both men in Priore's 2005 book and it's an actual quote, not Domenic paraphrasing. This leads me to want to believe him, where otherwise I'd chalk this up to another Priore lie.

VDP claims he didn't write HGS but Im not sure I believe him. (Call it a misremembering or disownment.) He was even credited for SGB as I recall, unless wikipedia is wrong--which does happen--despite not getting credit for WC or Wonderful. That feels significant, like that song was REALLY VDP's. I think those lyrics are too sophistocated for Brian and too oblique for Mike. Mike could've written those words, but he'd never write a song that wavers between Mark Twain/public speaker imagery and a baby getting put down for a nap. At least, I don't think so.

[juggler]

VDP claims he didn't write HGS but Im not sure I believe him. (Call it a misremembering or disownment.) He was even credited for SGB as I recall, unless wikipedia is wrong--which does happen--despite not getting credit for WC or Wonderful. That feels significant, like that song was REALLY VDP's. I think those lyrics are too sophistocated for Brian and too oblique for Mike. Mike could've written those words, but he'd never write a song that wavers between Mark Twain/public speaker imagery and a baby getting put down for a nap. At least, I don't think so.

\

Yeah, "Bald" has always been credited to Wilson-Love-Parks.  It's possible, I suppose, that VDP didn't write the original HGS lyrics but suggested some new lyrics that became part of Bald. Or he did write some or all the HGS lyrics and simply forgot. Fifteen to twenty years ago, when BWPS and the TSS were in the news a lot, VDP was often asked by slightly skeptical interviewers about Brian's memory of the old days, and VDP would typically say that Brian's memory was better than his own.  We, in the obsessive fan department wrongly assume that the principals are as interested in all this trivia as we are.  I mean, on one level, we say how can any of them be mixed-up about who wrote what?  But stop and think about your own work. How much of your own memory is dedicated to minute details of things that happened decades ago? If someone pulled out, say, an email that I wrote to a client 20 years ago, and started asking me questions about it, my memory on the subject probably wouldn't be perfect.

[WillJC]

Between the two dates you give, I say the sooner the better for these reasons. But unless you're willing or able to tell us exactly what evidence you're looking at to peg it down to ~Aug 25, I hope you won't take it personally if I remain somewhat skeptical. Without seeing what you're seeing, I'm leaning towards late July or perhaps early August. Do we know which GV session Van recommended the cello triplets on? Because it was probably soon after that, and Im thinking that's June-July (by August GV was essentially over). Also, how does this affect Frank Holmes? He still could've delivered the cover by sometime in October, and I'd argue the new cover art was a not insignificant impetus to change the album's name to SMiLE, which inspired or coincided with the sudden burst of comedy recordings in very late Oct through November. But the man does say it was June where he was given the job by both men in Priore's 2005 book and it's an actual quote, not Domenic paraphrasing. This leads me to want to believe him, where otherwise I'd chalk this up to another Priore lie.

It probably isn't worth getting into this here in too much detail until it can be published with quotes and citations in a proper resource. But the short version is, when Frank said it was June in 2005, he gave an off the cuff answer and years earlier had engaged in a much more thorough correspondence drawing on key dates and events to figure out his place in it.

Frank believed that he met Brian and was commissioned at most about three weeks before starting the fall semester at the Otis Art Institute on Sep 19, and from that thought it may have been the last week in August. Some of his work was done at home in Pasadena and the rest was finished within a couple of weeks of moving to LA to begin the semester. He was told from the outset by Brian that the album title had originally been Dumb Angel, but was now being changed to Smile, and that was the concept he'd work from. Van Dyke started by giving Frank the lyrics for the few songs they'd finished, plus prospective titles for other ideas. More were communicated over the following weeks and Frank worked on each illustration start to end in an eight hour day immediately after receiving the latest work. His involvement tells us a great deal about the order and timeline of the songwriting.

[Julia]

It probably isn't worth getting into this here in too much detail until it can be published with quotes and citations in a proper resource. But the short version is, when Frank said it was June in 2005, he gave an off the cuff answer and years earlier had engaged in a much more thorough correspondence drawing on key dates and events to figure out his place in it.

Frank believed that he met Brian and was commissioned at most about three weeks before starting the fall semester at the Otis Art Institute on Sep 19, and from that thought it may have been the last week in August. Some of his work was done at home in Pasadena and the rest was finished within a couple of weeks of moving to LA to begin the semester. He was told from the outset by Brian that the album title had originally been Dumb Angel, but was now being changed to Smile, and that was the concept he'd work from. Van Dyke started by giving Frank the lyrics for the few songs they'd finished, plus prospective titles for other ideas. More were communicated over the following weeks and Frank worked on each illustration start to end in an eight hour day immediately after receiving the latest work. His involvement tells us a great deal about the order and timeline of the songwriting.

Fair enough, thanks for taking the time to clarify. You're obviously a very thorough researcher with access to info that the rest of us aren't so I believe you. Someone giving an off the cuff answer is plausible especially when by all accounts the 2005 book was a rush job (the editor on an earlier thread even admitted so) and full of errors. I hope the implication here is that this kind of thing will be sussed out in the SMiLE book I've seen allusions to in other threads 

So...damn...now that means SMiLE was SMiLE as early as August?? When was Dumb Angel even the title then, like for five minutes when working on WC and GV?? That's wild. Well, there goes my theory about the dramatic change in tone in November because of the name change...  (Not that I mind changing my position as new info comes to light, that's what this kind of thing entails, but it's crazy how often it seems to happen with this goofy album from 60 years ago. You'd think all the supposed research of the last 6 decades could've produced some kind of basic timeline for us by now...)

I wont pester you for more details but I hope to see this all someday. You think it'll be a published book or will it be an extension of the website you've been sharing the Pet Sounds information on?

[WillJC]

It probably isn't worth getting into this here in too much detail until it can be published with quotes and citations in a proper resource. But the short version is, when Frank said it was June in 2005, he gave an off the cuff answer and years earlier had engaged in a much more thorough correspondence drawing on key dates and events to figure out his place in it.

Frank believed that he met Brian and was commissioned at most about three weeks before starting the fall semester at the Otis Art Institute on Sep 19, and from that thought it may have been the last week in August. Some of his work was done at home in Pasadena and the rest was finished within a couple of weeks of moving to LA to begin the semester. He was told from the outset by Brian that the album title had originally been Dumb Angel, but was now being changed to Smile, and that was the concept he'd work from. Van Dyke started by giving Frank the lyrics for the few songs they'd finished, plus prospective titles for other ideas. More were communicated over the following weeks and Frank worked on each illustration start to end in an eight hour day immediately after receiving the latest work. His involvement tells us a great deal about the order and timeline of the songwriting.

Fair enough, thanks for taking the time to clarify. You're obviously a very thorough researcher with access to info that the rest of us aren't so I believe you. Someone giving an off the cuff answer is plausible especially when by all accounts the 2005 book was a rush job (the editor on an earlier thread even admitted so) and full of errors. I hope the implication here is that this kind of thing will be sussed out in the SMiLE book I've seen allusions to in other threads  

So...damn...now that means SMiLE was SMiLE as early as August?? When was Dumb Angel even the title then, like for five minutes when working on WC and GV?? That's wild. Well, there goes my theory about the dramatic change in tone in November because of the name change...   (Not that I mind changing my position as new info comes to light, that's what this kind of thing entails, but it's crazy how often it seems to happen with this goofy album from 60 years ago. You'd think all the supposed research of the last 6 decades could've produced some kind of basic timeline for us by now...)

I wont pester you for more details but I hope to see this all someday. You think it'll be a published book or will it be an extension of the website you've been sharing the Pet Sounds information on?

I believe a handful of reports in July and August stated that the next album would be called Dumb Angel, plus, most notably, Tom Nolan's article which came from interviews with Brian on and around August 12 while he was in the studio cutting Look. A new album project number was assigned by Capitol in late June, which is probably when Brian decided he'd he working on a new LP with that title. From various things Brian, Van Dyke and Frank have said, it became Smile pretty much as soon as Van Dyke was on the scene.

Don't worry, there will be something about this on the site in a few months!

[Julia]

Looking forward to it!

And damn, while I welcome new accurate info and dont dispute it...I must lament the death of a theory that I thought perfectly tied everything together, the sudden comedy skits, VDP losing step with the project, Brian's subsequent disinterest in the earlier SMiLE songs... it all seemed like such an elegant explanation when I thought Dumb Angel became SMiLE in late October. 

[BJL]

It probably isn't worth getting into this here in too much detail until it can be published with quotes and citations in a proper resource. But the short version is, when Frank said it was June in 2005, he gave an off the cuff answer and years earlier had engaged in a much more thorough correspondence drawing on key dates and events to figure out his place in it.

Frank believed that he met Brian and was commissioned at most about three weeks before starting the fall semester at the Otis Art Institute on Sep 19, and from that thought it may have been the last week in August. Some of his work was done at home in Pasadena and the rest was finished within a couple of weeks of moving to LA to begin the semester. He was told from the outset by Brian that the album title had originally been Dumb Angel, but was now being changed to Smile, and that was the concept he'd work from. Van Dyke started by giving Frank the lyrics for the few songs they'd finished, plus prospective titles for other ideas. More were communicated over the following weeks and Frank worked on each illustration start to end in an eight hour day immediately after receiving the latest work. His involvement tells us a great deal about the order and timeline of the songwriting.

I'm so excited for all of this research to be made properly available. Not having a precise or clear understanding of the timeline has made it so much harder to talk about pretty much any aspect of how the project evolved. And as it is, the facts of Smile are scattered through so many and so many different kinds of books and forums and articles, and the balance of interpretation versus straightforward showing what happened is all out of wack, so that you're constantly looking at sessionographies like AGDs or the one in the Smile Sessions book with basically *no* interpretation or context, and trying to measure them against sources that are basically *all* interpretation. It makes it so easy to put forward theories that don't really make sense without realizing it!

[mike s]

Ref IIGS mentioned a bit further up - possible suspects for it:

1 - the IIGS section - obvious of course but its still an assumption

2 - workshop - noted at the time as 'friday night-IIGS' if I remember correctly

3 - barnyard - very speculative but if transported out of H&V along with IIGS make sense + fits lyrically

4 - Do a Lot - speculative but years ago a report of it with toothbrushing sounds (can't remember if teh tape box eas noted - its an obviously stolen item)

So possibly a collage type 'humour' thing as opposed to some mysterious lost masterpiece.