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Documentary!
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Topic: Documentary! (Read 74113 times)
SMiLE Brian
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #375 on:
June 06, 2024, 09:16:32 PM »
Brian at that beach meeting has that look of defeat knowing Mike’s got control over everything….
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
Lonely Summer
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #376 on:
June 06, 2024, 09:37:37 PM »
Quote from: rab2591 on June 06, 2024, 09:09:24 PM
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 06, 2024, 08:02:58 PM
I'm not concerned in the least about the Disney doc having a Mike Love spin to it. We've got several documentaries devoted specifically to telling Brian's story. Did the Love fans complain about those docs having a BW spin to them? Probably.
Brian Wilson is loved and revered the world over as the genius behind the music of the Beach Boys. He's worshipped for the sonic goods he bestowed upon us from 1962 to 1966 - especially 1966. Nothing about the Disney doc is going to change that. Nothing about the Disney doc is going to rob you of the pleasure you got seeing Brian tour as a solo artist from 1999 to 2023; his solo shows were universally praised as musically brilliant, unlike the traveling jukebox Mike leads.
If the result of the Disney doc is that Mike gets a little more credit, how does that take away from Brian?
I just want
a story told correctly
. I don't care if it gives Mike all the credit in the world for the things he has actually accomplished during his life (because he has accomplished a lot worthy of praise). And likewise, I don't care if it paints Brian at times in an unsavory way, because Brian hasn't always been an upstanding role model.
It would've been great for a
DEFINITIVE
documentary to just tell the story in a truthful and unbiased way where someone wouldn't have to comment
"I'm not concerned in the least about the Disney doc having a Mike Love spin to it"
when talking about it. For someone to comment that about a documentary that promotes itself as "The Definitive Look at America's Band." shows perfectly (a) that this documentary truly isn't "definitive", and (b) what a wasted opportunity this was for the band.
This documentary wasn't documenting the creation of TLOS or BWPS. It is supposedly the "definitive" look at the band so there shouldn't be ANY spin on it. Again, I go back to Ken Burn's baseball series - it would've been great to have a documentary like that where the people at the helm actually cared about the material. I guess I really expected a company that made 'Get Back' and made 31 billion dollars last year to be able to fund and create a documentary about "America's Band" that is actually worth watching.
And the rest of this is a reply to Hey Jude. Whether 10,000 or 10 million people see this, there are a couple worrisome things relating to this doc:
1) that the research team did their homework and came up with this tabloid-esque overview of the band (is this viewpoint held by so many people that it has become gospel now? or that there is never any official pushback on this lazy narrative that it was given the green-light due to being the easy way to put their story into an hour and a half movie? either way, it's worrisome that this narrative is what was put in a "definitive" documentary)
2) it upholds the viewpoint/understanding that SO many casual fans have about this band, so it's only going to bolster that false viewpoint. Especially when it calls itself "definitive". Regardless of it not going viral, it is now exclusively on a platform with 149 million subscribers (and growing), and from hereon when any casual person watches this film on there, they will walk away with the idea that this is THE official story. To someone who'd just like to have a truthful/beautiful documentary made, that is worrisome to me.
I will say, as Zenobi said above: the music will triumph over all this garbage. But in the meantime it's sad that our outlook is "in 200 years this won't matter" when in an alternate universe we're all on this message board talking about how great the new 5 part unbiased Beach Boys documentary series on PBS is. Sigh.
How do you do a book or movie or tv special without having some kind of spin to it? You put it in the hands of whoever, and they are going to mold and shape it in a way that is pleasing to that person. Already, you've got spin.
Then you get the band members involved. Mike says "I don't like that comment, take that out". Al objects to something different. As you get more and more people involved, the entire thing gets more watered down.
I watched Ken Burns' Baseball - including the update that was done later. Honestly, I was ticked off there wasn't more about Ken Griffey, Jr. He made the cover of the book and the dvd, but there was very little about him in it.
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Lonely Summer
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #377 on:
June 06, 2024, 09:38:16 PM »
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on June 06, 2024, 09:16:32 PM
Brian at that beach meeting has that look of defeat knowing Mike’s got control over everything….
Brian looks miserable in every photo of video I've seen of him in recent years.
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rab2591
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"My God. It's full of stars."
Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #378 on:
June 06, 2024, 10:01:33 PM »
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 06, 2024, 09:37:37 PM
Quote from: rab2591 on June 06, 2024, 09:09:24 PM
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 06, 2024, 08:02:58 PM
I'm not concerned in the least about the Disney doc having a Mike Love spin to it. We've got several documentaries devoted specifically to telling Brian's story. Did the Love fans complain about those docs having a BW spin to them? Probably.
Brian Wilson is loved and revered the world over as the genius behind the music of the Beach Boys. He's worshipped for the sonic goods he bestowed upon us from 1962 to 1966 - especially 1966. Nothing about the Disney doc is going to change that. Nothing about the Disney doc is going to rob you of the pleasure you got seeing Brian tour as a solo artist from 1999 to 2023; his solo shows were universally praised as musically brilliant, unlike the traveling jukebox Mike leads.
If the result of the Disney doc is that Mike gets a little more credit, how does that take away from Brian?
I just want
a story told correctly
. I don't care if it gives Mike all the credit in the world for the things he has actually accomplished during his life (because he has accomplished a lot worthy of praise). And likewise, I don't care if it paints Brian at times in an unsavory way, because Brian hasn't always been an upstanding role model.
It would've been great for a
DEFINITIVE
documentary to just tell the story in a truthful and unbiased way where someone wouldn't have to comment
"I'm not concerned in the least about the Disney doc having a Mike Love spin to it"
when talking about it. For someone to comment that about a documentary that promotes itself as "The Definitive Look at America's Band." shows perfectly (a) that this documentary truly isn't "definitive", and (b) what a wasted opportunity this was for the band.
This documentary wasn't documenting the creation of TLOS or BWPS. It is supposedly the "definitive" look at the band so there shouldn't be ANY spin on it. Again, I go back to Ken Burn's baseball series - it would've been great to have a documentary like that where the people at the helm actually cared about the material. I guess I really expected a company that made 'Get Back' and made 31 billion dollars last year to be able to fund and create a documentary about "America's Band" that is actually worth watching.
And the rest of this is a reply to Hey Jude. Whether 10,000 or 10 million people see this, there are a couple worrisome things relating to this doc:
1) that the research team did their homework and came up with this tabloid-esque overview of the band (is this viewpoint held by so many people that it has become gospel now? or that there is never any official pushback on this lazy narrative that it was given the green-light due to being the easy way to put their story into an hour and a half movie? either way, it's worrisome that this narrative is what was put in a "definitive" documentary)
2) it upholds the viewpoint/understanding that SO many casual fans have about this band, so it's only going to bolster that false viewpoint. Especially when it calls itself "definitive". Regardless of it not going viral, it is now exclusively on a platform with 149 million subscribers (and growing), and from hereon when any casual person watches this film on there, they will walk away with the idea that this is THE official story. To someone who'd just like to have a truthful/beautiful documentary made, that is worrisome to me.
I will say, as Zenobi said above: the music will triumph over all this garbage. But in the meantime it's sad that our outlook is "in 200 years this won't matter" when in an alternate universe we're all on this message board talking about how great the new 5 part unbiased Beach Boys documentary series on PBS is. Sigh.
How do you do a book or movie or tv special without having some kind of spin to it? You put it in the hands of whoever, and they are going to mold and shape it in a way that is pleasing to that person. Already, you've got spin.
Then you get the band members involved. Mike says "I don't like that comment, take that out". Al objects to something different. As you get more and more people involved, the entire thing gets more watered down.
I watched Ken Burns' Baseball - including the update that was done later. Honestly, I was ticked off there wasn't more about Ken Griffey, Jr. He made the cover of the book and the dvd, but there was very little about him in it.
Whether it's Ken Burns' Baseball, 'National Parks', or 'The War' series ANYONE can find something to nitpick about, but overall those documentaries are REVERED for their content and style. It would've been nice to have the same thing here. Would it be perfect? No. Would it have spin one way or another, yeah probably. But they could TRY to tell the real story without a
blatant
bias/narrative that every fan who watches this film can see. I have seen nothing but lukewarm reviews about this documentary - even from people who liked the thing! I don't think I've seen one review on any of these forums where someone was actually excited about this thing. I mean, even the Rotten Tomatoes critic reviews - most of them (and most of them being positive) had something negative to say in their main blurb about the film.
I guess I don't see the logic in saying "yeah there will always be a spin so having a Brian Wilson biased film and another Mike Love biased film is a good thing" - is that really the bar we're happy with? Or can we just admit that having a film that puts both Mike and Brian (and more importantly
the band
) in a truthful light would be the best option (and what this film SHOULD have been from the get-go)?
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Quote from: mtaber on September 18, 2021, 07:39:15 AM
God must’ve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!
"ragegasm" - /rāj • ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.
Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
rab2591
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"My God. It's full of stars."
Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #379 on:
June 06, 2024, 10:05:30 PM »
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 06, 2024, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on June 06, 2024, 09:16:32 PM
Brian at that beach meeting has that look of defeat knowing Mike’s got control over everything….
Brian looks miserable in every photo of video I've seen of him in recent years.
Suggest you check out his Instagram when he was at the Lakers game in April, he looked quite happy then. Especially with everything going on in his life lately, it's nice to see a smile on his face.
Logged
Bill Tobelman's
SMiLE site
Quote from: mtaber on September 18, 2021, 07:39:15 AM
God must’ve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!
"ragegasm" - /rāj • ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.
Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
SMiLE Brian
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #380 on:
June 06, 2024, 10:20:06 PM »
Yeah he looked like was having a good time
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
Shark
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #381 on:
June 06, 2024, 11:18:13 PM »
I just don't buy the whole "Mike Love POV" like this was told thru his eyes. Even Al saying that is a little much. Al was interviewed just as Mike was for this (and Bruce and David and Blondie). If Al had a certain narrative that he felt needed to be put across, he could have. I think the bottom line is very much tied to that AV article. This is a Disney project from Iconic. Does it benefit Iconic at all to have a "warts and all" story of the Beach Boys produced at this point? From their perspective, I highly doubt it. They wanted this thing as pristine as possible for the Disney audience and that means keep the drugs, lawsuits and fights to a minimum, certainly don't cover any sort of activities that may have been covered in the Gaines book and every Disney story needs a villain. Murry was the obvious choice: he had a negative effect on everyone (abusive to his sons, screwed Mike out of writing credits, bullied David out of the band) so he had to be woven throughout. Did that tie directly to Mike's big beef about not getting credited? Of course it did, but I highly doubt that Mike proposed casting Murry as the lone villain for the documentary. I hear what everyone is saying and that this is essentially a "paint by numbers" sort of program but saying this somehow expands on Mike's narrative history of the band at the expense of Brian just seems a little far-fetched for me. Iconic wanted this documentary made a certain way and they got it. It doesn't harm their brand. The hardcore fans will learn nothing from the documentary and that's the way they wanted it. We will always have Endless Harmony as a true documentary of the group. I'm certainly hopeful it does get updated one day with everything that happened post 1998 and covers the reunion and 2012 tour but some how I doubt that will happen while any of the main members are still with us.
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Lonely Summer
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #382 on:
June 07, 2024, 01:12:13 AM »
Quote from: rab2591 on June 06, 2024, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 06, 2024, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on June 06, 2024, 09:16:32 PM
Brian at that beach meeting has that look of defeat knowing Mike’s got control over everything….
Brian looks miserable in every photo of video I've seen of him in recent years.
Suggest you check out his Instagram when he was at the Lakers game in April, he looked quite happy then. Especially with everything going on in his life lately, it's nice to see a smile on his face.
I knew I would get this kind of reaction, because to say that Brian looks unhappy implies that his handlers are tormenting him, it's all Melinda's fault, etc.
IMO, Brian is probably in a lot of physical pain these days, and losing his wife isn't going to put a smile on his face, either. But I said what I said, and you can take it anyway you want.
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Zenobi
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #383 on:
June 07, 2024, 01:32:25 AM »
I said before that ignoring the great 1967-1977 era of the Beach Boys diminishes Mike, too. So I asked myself: how much diminished? Here's the answer: A WHOLE LOT. I'm listing all the songs where Mike sang a lead part in that period, marking with three stars the songs where he contributed at least lyrics.
SMiLE:
H&V (Cantina!)
Cabinessence (!)
Love To Say Dada
SMILEY SMILE:
H&V (Sunny Down Snuff!)
Vegetables
She's Goin' Bald***
Little Pad
GV***
Wind Chimes (!)
Gettin' Hungry***
Wonderful (prominent bass in Hey Baba Ruba section, too cool to ignore)
Whistle In
(MIKE IS ALL OVER THE WEIRDEST, LEAST COMMERCIAL BB ALBUM!)
WILD HONEY:
Aren't You Glad***
A Thing or Two***
Let The Wind Blow*** (GREAT)
Mama Says
FRIENDS:
Meant For You*** (SUBLIME)
Wake The World
Anna Lee, the Healer***
20/20:
Do It Again*** (OF COURSE! And without McGrath!)
Bluebirds Over The Mountain
All I Want To Do
Cabinessence
SUNFLOWER (no need to comment...):
Add Some Music to Your Day***
It's About Time
All I Wanna Do***
Cool, Cool Water***
SURF'S UP:
Don't Go Near The Water***
Student Demonstration Time***
'Til I Die (!!!!)
CARL AND THE PASSIONS:
He Come Down***
Marcella
All This Is That***
HOLLAND (ditto Sunflower):
Big Sur***
The Beaks of Eagles
California
Funky Pretty
I'm The Pied Piper (!!!!)
15 BIG ONES:
Rock And Roll Music
It's OK***
Had To Phone Ya***
Everyone's In Love With You***
A Casual Look
Blueberry Hill
LOVE YOU:
Let Us Go On This Way***
Roller Skatin' Child
Johnny Carson
Ding Dang (!)
Airplane (GREAT)
Love Is A Woman
(ALL OVER THE 2ND WEIRDEST ALBUM, TOO... OR IS IT THE 1ST ONE?)
That's 50 (FIFTY) leads in just the 1967-1977 window, and I left out the bonus tracks, and the live albums. He wrote at least the lyrics for 21 of these 50 songs. Of course he wrote also lyrics for songs where he did not sing a lead. And of course his trademark bass is always present, often prominent, in the harmony stacks.
Now, this is impressive. It's a FANTASTIC bunch of work. Not just the quantity, there are several masterpieces in there. Do you really realize this, Mike? Do you really think that your greatest accomplishment after 1966 is Kokomo? Do you think Marshall & the House of Mouse do you justice?
You are great, sometimes sublime. Whoever calls you talentless must be tone deaf.
I may be biased... I "confess" that my favourite among the peerless voices of Beach Boys is Mike's. How he can be punchy and rocking (and nasal, yes, I like also that!), but also so warm and quiet, sometimes gently whispering (THE WHISPERIN' WINDS!).
And talking of the Whisperin' Winds, Mike sang at least a part lead in most of the most "strange" and avant-garde songs by his cousin. In fact, he often helped Brian to f... with the formula.
«
Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 01:45:29 AM by Zenobi
»
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“May Heaven defend me from my fans: I can defend myself from my enemies." (Voltaire)
Zenobi
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #384 on:
June 07, 2024, 01:35:28 AM »
Sorry, double post.
«
Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 01:39:41 AM by Zenobi
»
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“May Heaven defend me from my fans: I can defend myself from my enemies." (Voltaire)
guitarfool2002
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"Barba non facit aliam historici"
Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #385 on:
June 07, 2024, 01:47:49 AM »
It's relatively easy to guess a possible reason why that period of albums and original music was all but glossed over, even though Mike created some classic music during that era: It doesn't fit the current narrative, or the narrative of the film if they're running into each other.
Endless Summer "saved" the band, according to the narrative. Endless Summer was, according to Mike's PR, something he "produced", something he named, and whatever else. Thus, 2+2=4, Mike and Endless Summer saved the band's fortunes after all that music from '67 to '74 failed to sell and the band was floundering...until Endless Summer bailed them out.
That's the narrative, right? Isn't that what this documentary is suggesting? Coincidentally or not, Mike is touring behind the anniversary of Endless Summer this year. As I said in an earlier post, it all ties in if you can see it.
Focusing on the great music they made during that time would go against that narrative, that they were a floundering band for those 6-7 years until Endless Summer hit the charts.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
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Offline
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"Barba non facit aliam historici"
Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #386 on:
June 07, 2024, 01:52:54 AM »
Quote from: Shark on June 06, 2024, 11:18:13 PM
I just don't buy the whole "Mike Love POV" like this was told thru his eyes. Even Al saying that is a little much. Al was interviewed just as Mike was for this (and Bruce and David and Blondie). If Al had a certain narrative that he felt needed to be put across, he could have. I think the bottom line is very much tied to that AV article. This is a Disney project from Iconic. Does it benefit Iconic at all to have a "warts and all" story of the Beach Boys produced at this point? From their perspective, I highly doubt it. They wanted this thing as pristine as possible for the Disney audience and that means keep the drugs, lawsuits and fights to a minimum, certainly don't cover any sort of activities that may have been covered in the Gaines book and every Disney story needs a villain. Murry was the obvious choice: he had a negative effect on everyone (abusive to his sons, screwed Mike out of writing credits, bullied David out of the band) so he had to be woven throughout. Did that tie directly to Mike's big beef about not getting credited? Of course it did, but I highly doubt that Mike proposed casting Murry as the lone villain for the documentary. I hear what everyone is saying and that this is essentially a "paint by numbers" sort of program but saying this somehow expands on Mike's narrative history of the band at the expense of Brian just seems a little far-fetched for me. Iconic wanted this documentary made a certain way and they got it. It doesn't harm their brand. The hardcore fans will learn nothing from the documentary and that's the way they wanted it. We will always have Endless Harmony as a true documentary of the group. I'm certainly hopeful it does get updated one day with everything that happened post 1998 and covers the reunion and 2012 tour but some how I doubt that will happen while any of the main members are still with us.
Of course Al could put his perspective across, and maybe he did...and then had it end up on the cutting room floor along with who knows how many dozens of hours of interview footage they could have used but didn't. It's easy to cut and edit anything to lean a certain way, in this case that seems to have happened. Who knows what Al actually said except Al, the interviewers, the editors, and producers.
Maybe that's why Al got a little salty talking about the footage that wasn't used in the doc.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Zenobi
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #387 on:
June 07, 2024, 02:07:38 AM »
Quote from: guitarfool2002 on June 07, 2024, 01:47:49 AM
It's relatively easy to guess a possible reason why that period of albums and original music was all but glossed over, even though Mike created some classic music during that era: It doesn't fit the current narrative, or the narrative of the film if they're running into each other.
Endless Summer "saved" the band, according to the narrative. Endless Summer was, according to Mike's PR, something he "produced", something he named, and whatever else. Thus, 2+2=4, Mike and Endless Summer saved the band's fortunes after all that music from '67 to '74 failed to sell and the band was floundering...until Endless Summer bailed them out.
That's the narrative, right? Isn't that what this documentary is suggesting? Coincidentally or not, Mike is touring behind the anniversary of Endless Summer this year. As I said in an earlier post, it all ties in if you can see it.
Focusing on the great music they made during that time would go against that narrative, that they were a floundering band for those 6-7 years until Endless Summer hit the charts.
I agree, let's hope that after touring behind the anniversary of Endless Summer Mike remembers all the great music he helped to create in that period. However, luckily that great music is still there to listen to, whatever the "narrative". Even more after all those wonderful box sets.
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SMiLE Brian
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #388 on:
June 07, 2024, 04:18:40 AM »
Them doing the original tracklist live would actually be cool.
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
Lonely Summer
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #389 on:
June 07, 2024, 06:35:53 AM »
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on June 07, 2024, 04:18:40 AM
Them doing the original tracklist live would actually be cool.
Yes it would. When did they last perform Girls on the Beach? Warmth of the Sun? Wendy? Girl Don't Tell Me? I'd pay to see that show.
And next year will be the 50th anniversary of Spirit of America and Good Vibrations - Best of the Beach Boys. Plenty of gems there to add to the show - The Little Girl I Once Knew, Add Some Music to Your Day, Surf's Up, Salt Lake City, Spirit of America, Please Let Me Wonder.
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Robbie Mac
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Carl Wilson is not amused.
Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #390 on:
June 07, 2024, 07:51:08 AM »
Quote from: Zenobi on June 06, 2024, 05:38:15 PM
FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE.
Carol is being subjected to enough character assassination in the Inclusive Board.
Let's try to be better people and not join in Carol-bashing. It's ugly.
She is a 87 old lady who managed to become a legend in a man-dominated environment. She says some questionable things now and then, so what? Just give her a break.
I said something very similar about Mike, some weeeks ago. As I am no "historian", don't apply two standards.
Some of what Carol has done is steal credits from James Jamerson who is not alive to refute her claims. It’s the BB version of Bernard Purdie claiming to have played on the Beatles records.
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rab2591
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"My God. It's full of stars."
Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #391 on:
June 07, 2024, 09:36:10 AM »
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 07, 2024, 01:12:13 AM
Quote from: rab2591 on June 06, 2024, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 06, 2024, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on June 06, 2024, 09:16:32 PM
Brian at that beach meeting has that look of defeat knowing Mike’s got control over everything….
Brian looks miserable in every photo of video I've seen of him in recent years.
Suggest you check out his Instagram when he was at the Lakers game in April, he looked quite happy then. Especially with everything going on in his life lately, it's nice to see a smile on his face.
I knew I would get this kind of reaction, because to say that Brian looks unhappy implies that his handlers are tormenting him, it's all Melinda's fault, etc.
IMO, Brian is probably in a lot of physical pain these days, and losing his wife isn't going to put a smile on his face, either. But I said what I said, and you can take it anyway you want.
Jeesh man, I wrote “especially with everything going on in his life lately, it’s nice to see a smile on his face.” - as in his horrendous back issues, that he’s now gotta use a walker/wheelchair, that so many of his friends and close associates are dying all around him, his wife dying, etc - ie acknowledging that he HAS looked really down lately.
I was merely saying that if you really hadn’t seen an uplifting picture of him recently that you should check out the Lakers game photo, because “it’s nice to see a smile on his face”. All the best to you, Lonely Summer.
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Quote from: mtaber on September 18, 2021, 07:39:15 AM
God must’ve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!
"ragegasm" - /rāj • ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.
Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
Zenobi
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #392 on:
June 07, 2024, 10:02:53 AM »
Quote from: rab2591 on June 07, 2024, 09:36:10 AM
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 07, 2024, 01:12:13 AM
Quote from: rab2591 on June 06, 2024, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 06, 2024, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on June 06, 2024, 09:16:32 PM
Brian at that beach meeting has that look of defeat knowing Mike’s got control over everything….
Brian looks miserable in every photo of video I've seen of him in recent years.
Suggest you check out his Instagram when he was at the Lakers game in April, he looked quite happy then. Especially with everything going on in his life lately, it's nice to see a smile on his face.
I knew I would get this kind of reaction, because to say that Brian looks unhappy implies that his handlers are tormenting him, it's all Melinda's fault, etc.
IMO, Brian is probably in a lot of physical pain these days, and losing his wife isn't going to put a smile on his face, either. But I said what I said, and you can take it anyway you want.
Jeesh man, I wrote “especially with everything going on in his life lately, it’s nice to see a smile on his face.” - as in his horrendous back issues, that he’s now gotta use a walker/wheelchair, that so many of his friends and close associates are dying all around him, his wife dying, etc - ie acknowledging that he HAS looked really down lately.
I was merely saying that if you really hadn’t seen an uplifting picture of him recently that you should check out the Lakers game photo, because “it’s nice to see a smile on his face”. All the best to you, Lonely Summer.
There is no hope, Rab. Some people can't help seeing EVERYTHING through the "Beach Boys politics" lens.
That was the main reason for my extremely long, and I guess just as useless, post about Mike Love. Trying to get away from that narrow and self-defeating mindset.
But, as I said, there is no hope. You show normal human decency to Brian Wilson, so you must be a Brianista. Shame on you!
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Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 10:03:52 AM by Zenobi
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Zenobi
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Re: Documentary!
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Reply #393 on:
June 07, 2024, 10:19:22 AM »
Quote from: Robbie Mac on June 07, 2024, 07:51:08 AM
Quote from: Zenobi on June 06, 2024, 05:38:15 PM
FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE.
Carol is being subjected to enough character assassination in the Inclusive Board.
Let's try to be better people and not join in Carol-bashing. It's ugly.
She is a 87 old lady who managed to become a legend in a man-dominated environment. She says some questionable things now and then, so what? Just give her a break.
I said something very similar about Mike, some weeeks ago. As I am no "historian", don't apply two standards.
Some of what Carol has done is steal credits from James Jamerson who is not alive to refute her claims. It’s the BB version of Bernard Purdie claiming to have played on the Beatles records.
Ok, I know that very well. That's not my point. My point is that two wrongs do not make a right. The behaviour of some people (in the Inclusive Board) to Carol is totally obnoxious.
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Angela Jones
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Re: Documentary!
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Reply #394 on:
June 07, 2024, 11:19:59 AM »
Quote from: Lonely Summer on June 06, 2024, 08:02:58 PM
I'm not concerned in the least about the Disney doc having a Mike Love spin to it. We've got several documentaries devoted specifically to telling Brian's story. Did the Love fans complain about those docs having a BW spin to them? Probably.
Brian Wilson is loved and revered the world over as the genius behind the music of the Beach Boys. He's worshipped for the sonic goods he bestowed upon us from 1962 to 1966 - especially 1966. Nothing about the Disney doc is going to change that. Nothing about the Disney doc is going to rob you of the pleasure you got seeing Brian tour as a solo artist from 1999 to 2023; his solo shows were universally praised as musically brilliant, unlike the traveling jukebox Mike leads.
If the result of the Disney doc is that Mike gets a little more credit, how does that take away from Brian?
'He's worshipped for the sonic goods he bestowed upon us from 1962 to 1966 - especially 1966. Nothing about the Disney doc is going to change that.' No but it could have enlarged upon that. And rather too much emphasis IMO on the fact that Pet Sounds didn't do that well (in the US) commercially at first. It got to No 2 in the album charts in the UK. And it's shouldn't just be about how well it sold either.
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Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 01:18:26 PM by Angela Jones
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HeyJude
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Re: Documentary!
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Reply #395 on:
June 07, 2024, 04:42:48 PM »
Quote from: rab2591 on June 06, 2024, 09:09:24 PM
And the rest of this is a reply to Hey Jude. Whether 10,000 or 10 million people see this, there are a couple worrisome things relating to this doc:
1) that the research team did their homework and came up with this tabloid-esque overview of the band (is this viewpoint held by so many people that it has become gospel now? or that there is never any official pushback on this lazy narrative that it was given the green-light due to being the easy way to put their story into an hour and a half movie? either way, it's worrisome that this narrative is what was put in a "definitive" documentary)
2) it upholds the viewpoint/understanding that SO many casual fans have about this band, so it's only going to bolster that false viewpoint. Especially when it calls itself "definitive". Regardless of it not going viral, it is now exclusively on a platform with 149 million subscribers (and growing), and from hereon when any casual person watches this film on there, they will walk away with the idea that this is THE official story. To someone who'd just like to have a truthful/beautiful documentary made, that is worrisome to me.
I will say, as Zenobi said above: the music will triumph over all this garbage. But in the meantime it's sad that our outlook is "in 200 years this won't matter" when in an alternate universe we're all on this message board talking about how great the new 5 part unbiased Beach Boys documentary series on PBS is. Sigh.
I agree with all of that. It's not a high water mark for this type of documentary to go out to a zillion worldwide subscribers.
But I've also spent a lot of time in non-Beach Boys areas of work/study looking at the media/streaming/cultural landscape, and what I was trying to say in a previous post is essentially to try to be optimistic in pointing out that not only is the doc not seeming to catch on as a pop culture centerpiece, but also that pop culture/entertainment moves *much more quickly* now than it did even ten let alone 20-30-40 years ago.
That things are HUGE and then drop off the face of the earth very quickly these days is not a good thing for some people (e.g. people looking for career longevity), but it might just be an inadvertent fringe benefit when there's something that you want to kind of just go away as quickly as possible.
Also, I think it's worth noting that a lot of fans, a lot of people on this board surely, probably delved into the Beach Boys with books/videos/articles that were not always accurate or fair. The vast majority of people who become legit *fans* who want to dive into all of the music and learn the whole story usually will find their way to the correct information.
I bow to nobody in my desire and in many cases effort to "guard" the band's legacy as much as any fan can. I've spent tons of posts/threads explaining why I think the Stamos/Full House connection had a definite *downside* to the band's perception/legacy, I have a zillion posts delving into the injurious things Mike (and others) have done to other members, fans, and the band's legacy over the years.
But we also should be able to *not* have to carry that on our backs all the time either. I could spend hours and many pages poring over how hard this Disney doc biffed it, and I probably will do so at some point. But I've lived through many other similar scenarios, and I think we'll all survive and we won't find "Mike Love is a Genius" buttons on sale on Etsy five years from now.
We survived the 2000 Stamos ABC TV movie miniseries (which was far more egregious than even this doc, and may well have been watched by more people in 2000), so I think the story/fandom will survive and thrive, so long as the authors/historians/researchers and the audio archive team we have right now continue to do the great work they do. Actual legit, true fans that want to delve in and learn more about the band, who actually have the attention span to close TikTok and go get some real books and *seek* information out, will be able to find a better, fair, correct narrative.
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guitarfool2002
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Re: Documentary!
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Reply #396 on:
June 07, 2024, 05:15:07 PM »
I would like to bring up the point of the Mike Love songwriting lawsuit and it's considerably larger role in the documentary than what some fans may have expected.
First, are there opinions that Mike's song credit lawsuit took up more time than expected in telling the story of the Beach Boys with this documentary? Do you think it was handled evenly or was it slanted more toward Mike's narrative of the whole situation?
I ask because I went back to a lot of research I had done in 2013, and to discussions on this forum from that time, after thinking how many fans watching this documentary came away knowing more than a surface level summary of the lawsuit. I don't think many do know the deeper details and context, and wonder where they would find such info.
The takeaway I got was "Mike got screwed on these credits, sued and won" and whatever else follows from there.
Do you think enough time was devoted to the fact that Brian also got screwed out of money and credits he deserved, and had to also file multiple lawsuits in order to win that back? Starting a long time ago, Capitol did not pay money due to Brian regarding his production credits and "points" on Beach Boys records. Brian eventually won that settlement to the tune of over a million dollars, and I'm not sure on the exact year that was decided, but in today's money it is a massive amount. So Capitol withheld that money, and Brian had to file suit to get it back. Brian and the band also sued Capitol over non-payment due to the label trying to exploit a "breakage clause" in their standard contracts involving returned product, and the band's win in that case led directly to the formation of the Brother Records label in '67. Brian also won a settlement against Irving-Almo, A&M, and whatever other corporate interests were involved in the sale of Sea Of Tunes in 1969, based on a handful of legal issues and claims of fraud and other misdeeds by the lawyers involved dating back to the inception of Sea Of Tunes when Brian was still legally a minor (i.e. unable to enter into a legal contract agreement) when Murry established the company originally.
That was filed in 1989, and eventually decided in June 1992. In July 1992, Mike filed his lawsuit against the 10 million dollar settlement Brian received, only to the tune of filing a 50 million dollar suit against Brian's 10 million judgement award. The number of songs in question dropped from Mike's original claim of over 70 songs, which got reduced to 48 by July 1992, then reduced further to 35 songs for which he received credit in perpetuity. Mike's suit also hinged on the claim that an agreement was made between their legal teams that Mike would receive 30% of Brian's 10 million settlement, which never happened. The agreement reached in December 1994 was for 5 million and future royalties.
Then in September 1995 Brian filed his own suit against the legal teams representing him during that time, and the lawyer acting in the conservator role for him since December 1991, basically controlling his money and what he could do with it in a legal sense. The suit alleged a variety of misdeeds and violations.
There is much, much more to this, which I will link to for anyone interested, but I wanted to give a surface level take on the case which is featured somewhat prominently in the documentary to show how much more there really is to the story, and how the narrative or takeaway some might see that "Mike got screwed out of money, sued and won" is only the tip of the iceberg. Brian also got screwed out of money (potentially more than Mike considering the production points), sued, and won, quite a few times since the 1960's. Do you think that aspect of the story was or was not highlighted enough in the documentary?
For anyone interested, here are links to the original discussion about the lawsuit. I went into it knowing a little more than average about the details, but through more digging actually came out of it having found some additional details that made the story all the more complete and interesting too. Unfortunately the discussion gets interrupted a lot, but it's a good read from 2013 where you can see several sides of the discussion being offered.
It starts around here:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,16619.msg411202.html#msg411202
And ends around here:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,16619.575.html
I'm just adding all this to show how even one topic which was aired in the documentary could actually be the subject of a 2-hour documentary on its own, and would probably appeal to all those viewers who watch the legal channels and discuss previous legal and criminal cases, not to mention the band's fans who might want to dig deeper into these topics which only get a surface-level airing. And ironically, pieces of the original case Mike filed and won in December '94 are still winding through the court system, but I'll say no more about that. It's public record anyway if you know where to look. And that's not even getting into the rumors and gossip involving Rocky Pamplin, Stan Love, etc. Topic for other discussions.
It may be interesting too if viewers just read a little bit of the backstories and compare that to what was presented in the new film, and how it was presented.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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Re: Documentary!
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Reply #397 on:
June 07, 2024, 05:41:02 PM »
Brian never complained….
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
HeyJude
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Re: Documentary!
«
Reply #398 on:
June 07, 2024, 07:48:33 PM »
Quote from: guitarfool2002 on June 07, 2024, 05:15:07 PM
I would like to bring up the point of the Mike Love songwriting lawsuit and it's considerably larger role in the documentary than what some fans may have expected.
First, are there opinions that Mike's song credit lawsuit took up more time than expected in telling the story of the Beach Boys with this documentary? Do you think it was handled evenly or was it slanted more toward Mike's narrative of the whole situation?
I ask because I went back to a lot of research I had done in 2013, and to discussions on this forum from that time, after thinking how many fans watching this documentary came away knowing more than a surface level summary of the lawsuit. I don't think many do know the deeper details and context, and wonder where they would find such info.
The takeaway I got was "Mike got screwed on these credits, sued and won" and whatever else follows from there.
Do you think enough time was devoted to the fact that Brian also got screwed out of money and credits he deserved, and had to also file multiple lawsuits in order to win that back? Starting a long time ago, Capitol did not pay money due to Brian regarding his production credits and "points" on Beach Boys records. Brian eventually won that settlement to the tune of over a million dollars, and I'm not sure on the exact year that was decided, but in today's money it is a massive amount. So Capitol withheld that money, and Brian had to file suit to get it back. Brian and the band also sued Capitol over non-payment due to the label trying to exploit a "breakage clause" in their standard contracts involving returned product, and the band's win in that case led directly to the formation of the Brother Records label in '67. Brian also won a settlement against Irving-Almo, A&M, and whatever other corporate interests were involved in the sale of Sea Of Tunes in 1969, based on a handful of legal issues and claims of fraud and other misdeeds by the lawyers involved dating back to the inception of Sea Of Tunes when Brian was still legally a minor (i.e. unable to enter into a legal contract agreement) when Murry established the company originally.
That was filed in 1989, and eventually decided in June 1992. In July 1992, Mike filed his lawsuit against the 10 million dollar settlement Brian received, only to the tune of filing a 50 million dollar suit against Brian's 10 million judgement award. The number of songs in question dropped from Mike's original claim of over 70 songs, which got reduced to 48 by July 1992, then reduced further to 35 songs for which he received credit in perpetuity. Mike's suit also hinged on the claim that an agreement was made between their legal teams that Mike would receive 30% of Brian's 10 million settlement, which never happened. The agreement reached in December 1994 was for 5 million and future royalties.
Then in September 1995 Brian filed his own suit against the legal teams representing him during that time, and the lawyer acting in the conservator role for him since December 1991, basically controlling his money and what he could do with it in a legal sense. The suit alleged a variety of misdeeds and violations.
There is much, much more to this, which I will link to for anyone interested, but I wanted to give a surface level take on the case which is featured somewhat prominently in the documentary to show how much more there really is to the story, and how the narrative or takeaway some might see that "Mike got screwed out of money, sued and won" is only the tip of the iceberg. Brian also got screwed out of money (potentially more than Mike considering the production points), sued, and won, quite a few times since the 1960's. Do you think that aspect of the story was or was not highlighted enough in the documentary?
For anyone interested, here are links to the original discussion about the lawsuit. I went into it knowing a little more than average about the details, but through more digging actually came out of it having found some additional details that made the story all the more complete and interesting too. Unfortunately the discussion gets interrupted a lot, but it's a good read from 2013 where you can see several sides of the discussion being offered.
It starts around here:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,16619.msg411202.html#msg411202
And ends around here:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,16619.575.html
I'm just adding all this to show how even one topic which was aired in the documentary could actually be the subject of a 2-hour documentary on its own, and would probably appeal to all those viewers who watch the legal channels and discuss previous legal and criminal cases, not to mention the band's fans who might want to dig deeper into these topics which only get a surface-level airing. And ironically, pieces of the original case Mike filed and won in December '94 are still winding through the court system, but I'll say no more about that. It's public record anyway if you know where to look. And that's not even getting into the rumors and gossip involving Rocky Pamplin, Stan Love, etc. Topic for other discussions.
It may be interesting too if viewers just read a little bit of the backstories and compare that to what was presented in the new film, and how it was presented.
This stuff is all intensely interesting to me and many here, and you've dug up some great stuff over the years on all the facets of the case. It could indeed be its own documentary.
I don't know how much of the story would ever be part of even a multi-part BB doc, but certainly there would be plenty of room to cover all the important points.
One aspect when telling the story in doc (or book) form though is how much one wants it to be a straight historical retelling, versus how much it would be driven by how the people involved feel.
I would again point people to the recent Surf's Up podcast with Howie Edelson where, while he's talking about the Genesis book mainly, they get into Mike's feelings about the songwriting credits. Howie even talks about some of the questions he's asked Mike regarding why Mike didn't say anything sooner, what resources or recourse he felt he had back then, etc. It's very interesting. And I think Howie put it well; Mike views the songwriting issue as a sort of "original sin." Putting it that way helps put into focus the last decade or so in particular of Mike continuing to hammer the issue decades after it was all rectified in his favor. And I think there's room to have understanding and empathy regarding that.
Mike's never going to get over it; there's nobody left to apologize any more than they already have, there's nobody and nothing left to "fix" it more than it has. Mike hasn't, to my knowledge, said that if, say, Brian had apologized for himself and/or on behalf of Murry or something, that that would help.
The 2016 "Ballad of Mike Love" Rolling Stone piece on Mike did a good job of conveying both Mike's insistence on continuing to make it a thing, and also the writer does a good job of conveying how he (and thus we as readers/fans) could easily be frustrated by his immovability on the issue, and of continuing to complain about the issue.
Any decent history/biography of the band should hone in on that "original sin" idea to help explain why Mike is so adamant about it. BUT, yes, it absolutely should tell the *other* parts of the story too. That Brian was cowed by Murry. That Brian never took initiative to fix it, but also that Brian never denied Mike wrote the songs, and wanted to settle rather than go to trial circa 1994, and had crappy lawyers. That Mike has been inconsistent with how much he blames Brian (sometimes it's Brian's fault, sometimes he acknowledges Brian was cowed). And yes, it should trace the genesis of the whole thing, including the Irving-Alamo lawsuit, that Murry screwed everybody over. It should point out that the timing of Mike's 90s lawsuit against Brian was not random, but rather specifically in reaction to Brian having settled the Irving-Alamo lawsuit. It should pose the fair question to Mike of why *he* waited so long to do anything about it. He likes to describe Brian as being cowed by Murry, but I don't think Mike feels like *he* was cowed by Murry. So why didn't he go straight to Murry? Why didn't he put the brakes on the whole thing in like 1966, especially after the success of "Good Vibrations", and say "Okay, this songwriting credit issue needs to be resolved, and I'm not going on stage for a gig until it is." And, in turn, Mike (or others) can offer explanations for why that didn't happen. I think some explanations are valid, maybe others aren't.
A good documentary filmmaker could push through all of that in five or ten minutes. I've seen documentaries diagram out intricate business relationships with military contractors, 87 levels of mob organization, and so on. It could be done.
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Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 07:51:20 PM by HeyJude
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Re: Documentary!
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Reply #399 on:
June 08, 2024, 12:26:26 AM »
Everybody agrees that ML penned the words to California Girls. Did he really write everything he got his name added to in the '94 lawsuit? I'm skeptical.
Tony Asher has said that ML's addition to the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" credits is a joke. Adding "good night, sleep tight" (hardly an original rhyme) to the outro during the vocal sessions shouldn't have merited songwriting credit. George and Ringo both commented many times that they added various lines to Beatles songs credited solely to Lennon-McCartney. Did they sue?
I can understand, I guess, how the "Sea of Tunes" issues are interesting to scholars of the band, but I really don't think they're as interesting to casual viewers of Disney documentaries as Mike Love and Frank Marshall apparently do. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, even I, a hardcore fan, have never lost a minute of sleep over the fact that Brian, Mike and their various wives and ex-wives aren't even richer than they are because Herb Alpert and Jerry Moss allegedly ate their lunch, courtesy of Murry's antics.
When I saw Marilyn in the doc incredulously lamenting that Murry unloaded SoT to AlMo in 1969 for $700,000, chump change, right? But the erstwhile corporate finance student in me is thinking.... "Hmmm, $700k in 1969, invested in the S&P 500... average annual return since then of 10.5%... in 2024: $169 million... not terrible.
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