What did the beach boys do better than the beatles?

[JK]

Very nicely put, sir.

[Lonely Summer]

Agreed.

[Needleinthehay]

Not intentional but bb’s/brians story does infom the music and makes them more sympathetic once you know about murry/landy/drugs/mental illness/dennis etc.
John lennon on the other hand seemed like kind of a prick and sure his mom died etc but none of the beatles had to overcome as much adversity while they were alive, imho, which can make you have more of an appreciation for bbs music.

[KDS]

Not intentional but bb’s/brians story does infom the music and makes them more sympathetic once you know about murry/landy/drugs/mental illness/dennis etc.
John lennon on the other hand seemed like kind of a prick and sure his mom died etc but none of the beatles had to overcome as much adversity while they were alive, imho, which can make you have more of an appreciation for bbs music.

While I think there's some truth to this, I wouldnt use it as a tiebreaker.

Pink Floyd is my favorite band of all time, but Roger Waters is an insufferable, bitter, hateful person, and Dave, Nick, and Rick seemed to be relieved that he left the group.

Ritchie Blackmore is my all time favorite guitarist, and he's so disliked that he wasn't allowed to attended Deep Purple's RNRHOF induction.

But that doesnt affect my love for their music.

[rab2591]

Not intentional but bb’s/brians story does infom the music and makes them more sympathetic once you know about murry/landy/drugs/mental illness/dennis etc.
John lennon on the other hand seemed like kind of a prick and sure his mom died etc but none of the beatles had to overcome as much adversity while they were alive, imho, which can make you have more of an appreciation for bbs music.

While I think there's some truth to this, I wouldnt use it as a tiebreaker.

Pink Floyd is my favorite band of all time, but Roger Waters is an insufferable, bitter, hateful person, and Dave, Nick, and Rick seemed to be relieved that he left the group.

Ritchie Blackmore is my all time favorite guitarist, and he's so disliked that he wasn't allowed to attended Deep Purple's RNRHOF induction.

But that doesnt affect my love for their music.

I think NeedleInTheHay is just saying that the story makes the Beach Boys music more immersive. That John Lennon was a prick doesn't make me dislike his music any less, but his story doesn't make the music much more immersive - unlike that of the Beach Boys where you can look into these guys' lives and see a lot of perpetual suffering and it helps make the music come that much more alive.

Take 'In My Room' - its a beautiful song if you're just introduced to it. Soaring harmonies and a great melody. But when you hear of Brian's story you start imaging Brian as a scared individual hiding from the world/father/etc....it makes the song much more powerful.

So while artists being pricks doesn't affect my love of their music, artists having a vividly powerful story behind the music does affect my love for the music...for the better.

[HeyJude]

Not intentional but bb’s/brians story does infom the music and makes them more sympathetic once you know about murry/landy/drugs/mental illness/dennis etc.
John lennon on the other hand seemed like kind of a prick and sure his mom died etc but none of the beatles had to overcome as much adversity while they were alive, imho, which can make you have more of an appreciation for bbs music.

How familiar are you with the Beatles story? Have you read Mark Lewisohn's "Tune In?" The "sure, his Mom died, but...." suggests to me you're not super familiar with the Beatles.

Outside of John Lennon, the rest of the Beatles grew up in squalor compared to the relatively middle class upbringing of most of the Beach Boys members. The Beatles' families gave birth to the members in the midst of WWII bombings, etc.

There doesn't need to be a tit-for-tat, and Murry was awful, but an argument could easily be made that the Beatles, especially in the early era, suffered more adversity than the BBs.

The BBs essentially cut their first record before and/or as they became a band. The Beatles gigged around for years before they had the chance to make a professional record. Murry was awful, but he also was there to help the BBs immensely. Who out of all of the Beatles' parents actively helped them succeed in a way at all similar to what Murry did? Mostly Pete Best's Mom, that was about it.

Also, have you read Steven Gaines' book (not to mention Stebbins and others)? All the BBs and everybody else for that matter are human and have failings just like all of us. While Brian suffered greatly under Landy and deserves a huge amount of understanding and empathy, most of the BBs (and not just Mike) were pricks at various points over the years just like the Beatles were (and Lennon himself to a certain degree admitted as such; I believe one of his famous interviews referenced that the Beatles could be some of the biggest bastards around).

Lennon got shot, Harrison was attacked in his home. There are plenty of ways all of these guys were a-holes and also plenty of ways they faced adversity not of their own making.

I'm not sure every female Dennis had relationships with left those relationships with nothing but positive feelings.

Pretty much every one of the BBs was at the forefront of any number of business/money/artistic dealings that left others feeling slighted and disgruntled.

[HeyJude]

Not intentional but bb’s/brians story does infom the music and makes them more sympathetic once you know about murry/landy/drugs/mental illness/dennis etc.
John lennon on the other hand seemed like kind of a prick and sure his mom died etc but none of the beatles had to overcome as much adversity while they were alive, imho, which can make you have more of an appreciation for bbs music.

While I think there's some truth to this, I wouldnt use it as a tiebreaker.

Pink Floyd is my favorite band of all time, but Roger Waters is an insufferable, bitter, hateful person, and Dave, Nick, and Rick seemed to be relieved that he left the group.

Ritchie Blackmore is my all time favorite guitarist, and he's so disliked that he wasn't allowed to attended Deep Purple's RNRHOF induction.

But that doesnt affect my love for their music.

I think NeedleInTheHay is just saying that the story makes the Beach Boys music more immersive. That John Lennon was a prick doesn't make me dislike his music any less, but his story doesn't make the music much more immersive - unlike that of the Beach Boys where you can look into these guys' lives and see a lot of perpetual suffering and it helps make the music come that much more alive.

Take 'In My Room' - its a beautiful song if you're just introduced to it. Soaring harmonies and a great melody. But when you hear of Brian's story you start imaging Brian as a scared individual hiding from the world/father/etc....it makes the song much more powerful.

So while artists being pricks doesn't affect my love of their music, artists having a vividly powerful story behind the music does affect my love for the music...for the better.

Have you read Lewisohn's "Tune In." That story (which only takes it up to the end of 1962) has everything. You can't *not* be inspired reading that book. Inspired by everything. The hard work. The lucky breaks. The moments of chance/happenstance. The fortune of meeting Epstein. The drive to succeed and not settle.

There are just as many links between the Beatles' compositions and their lives as there was/is with Brian. Listen to "There's a Place" or "In My Life" or "For No One" or "I'm Looking Through You", and many many others. You need to know the Beatles story to get the context, just the same as you do with Brian and "In My Room" and other songs.

I'm not sure where it's coming from that Lennon was a prick, and meanwhile the BBs were victims of immense suffering. Lennon could be a prick, and also did great things. The BBs suffered, and could also be a-holes themselves.

Several members of the Beatles grew up in arguably something approaching near poverty.

I would never assume or expect everyone to be super familiar with the history of the Beatles. But a lot of these blanket statements about them are, in my opinion, false and/or overgeneralized.

[B.E.]

Not intentional but bb’s/brians story does infom the music and makes them more sympathetic once you know about murry/landy/drugs/mental illness/dennis etc.
John lennon on the other hand seemed like kind of a prick and sure his mom died etc but none of the beatles had to overcome as much adversity while they were alive, imho, which can make you have more of an appreciation for bbs music.

While I think there's some truth to this, I wouldnt use it as a tiebreaker.

Pink Floyd is my favorite band of all time, but Roger Waters is an insufferable, bitter, hateful person, and Dave, Nick, and Rick seemed to be relieved that he left the group.

Ritchie Blackmore is my all time favorite guitarist, and he's so disliked that he wasn't allowed to attended Deep Purple's RNRHOF induction.

But that doesnt affect my love for their music.

I think NeedleInTheHay is just saying that the story makes the Beach Boys music more immersive. That John Lennon was a prick doesn't make me dislike his music any less, but his story doesn't make the music much more immersive - unlike that of the Beach Boys where you can look into these guys' lives and see a lot of perpetual suffering and it helps make the music come that much more alive.

Take 'In My Room' - its a beautiful song if you're just introduced to it. Soaring harmonies and a great melody. But when you hear of Brian's story you start imaging Brian as a scared individual hiding from the world/father/etc....it makes the song much more powerful.

So while artists being pricks doesn't affect my love of their music, artists having a vividly powerful story behind the music does affect my love for the music...for the better.

I think Lennon's story is very sympathetic, as well as, 'vividly powerful'. An obvious choice, but look no further than 'Mother'.

Edit: Nice posts HeyJude, I agree. Also, I'm not attempting to rank who suffered more. Basically, just responding to "sure, his Mom died, but...".

[HeyJude]

Not intentional but bb’s/brians story does infom the music and makes them more sympathetic once you know about murry/landy/drugs/mental illness/dennis etc.
John lennon on the other hand seemed like kind of a prick and sure his mom died etc but none of the beatles had to overcome as much adversity while they were alive, imho, which can make you have more of an appreciation for bbs music.

While I think there's some truth to this, I wouldnt use it as a tiebreaker.

Pink Floyd is my favorite band of all time, but Roger Waters is an insufferable, bitter, hateful person, and Dave, Nick, and Rick seemed to be relieved that he left the group.

Ritchie Blackmore is my all time favorite guitarist, and he's so disliked that he wasn't allowed to attended Deep Purple's RNRHOF induction.

But that doesnt affect my love for their music.

I'd also say there's a wide gap between "victims/suffering" and being a known and infamous prick in the industry.

Neither the Beatles nor the BBs fall into either of these extremes (not even Mike).

If we weighed *heavily* these people's personal lives and dealings, we wouldn't listen to most any of their music. I'm not trying to be a misanthrope or anything. They're all just human.

[rab2591]

I'm not sure where it's coming from that Lennon was a prick, and meanwhile the BBs were victims of immense suffering. Lennon could be a prick, and also did great things. The BBs suffered, and could also be a-holes themselves.

Several members of the Beatles grew up in arguably something approaching near poverty.

I would never assume or expect everyone to be super familiar with the history of the Beatles. But a lot of these blanket statements about them are, in my opinion, false and/or overgeneralized.

The Beatles suffered too and I never said they didn't. I also know my Beatles history and have a fairly good grasp on why I think Lennon was a prick at times. I never said any of the Beach Boys weren't assholes - my posting history here about Mike Love should back that up quite easily. My point is that the Beach Boys stories is far more immersive than that of the Beatles....I wrote "perpetual suffering" regarding the Beach Boys for a reason: Brian has had to deal with manic depression and schizophrenia every day of his life since the mid 60s. I'm not trying to make a pissing contest out of the Beatles vs Beach Boys suffering, but it is obvious that someone who writes 'A Day In The Life Of A Tree' has some serious sh*t going on...and the ins and outs of that are deeply woven into a story that is unrivaled in the history of rock music, imo. Its the reason there was a feature film made about Brian Wilson revolving directly around his mental illness. That is the point NeedleInTheHay was making, which I agree fully with, and I don't think anyone could change my mind about it.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

OK. So do we all agree that the Beach Boys do suffering better than the Beatles?

[rab2591]

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

Shouldn't that be 

[Needleinthehay]

My point is that the Beach Boys stories is far more immersive than that of the Beatles....

Yeah, exactly the point i was trying to make. I guess putting the "lennon was kind of a prick" thing might not have been completely relavent to what I was saying. The reason i said that is i had recently read cynthia lennons book and he comes across not great...of course, she was trying to sell books and had an ax to grind, etc...

[Lonely Summer]

Lennon's first album after the Beatles was basically 35 minutes of him screaming out the misery and pain in his life. So he might tell you he suffered more than those pampered, middle class Wilson boys. "Mother, you left me, but I never left you". If that's not pain, I don't know what is.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

Lennon's first album after the Beatles was basically 35 minutes of him screaming out the misery and pain in his life. So he might tell you he suffered more than those pampered, middle class Wilson boys. "Mother, you left me, but I never left you". If that's not pain, I don't know what is.

Whereas Brian's scream, albeit quieter, lasted longer than 35 minutes. It began with In My Room and continues to the prssent day.

Although a case could be argued that Lennon's inner scream began with There's a Place. As Lennon actually wrote those lyrics, it could be a stronger case than In My Room. However, it could be argued that Gary Usher was merely transcribing Brian's feelings, which adds to the idea that this is a form of therapy for Brian.

What do you guys think? Who did 'enormous cry for help disguised as innocent 60's lyric' better. Brian or John?

Jokes aside, both these chaps suffered, and that suffering both informed and infused their art. And if Lennon was a prick, he was aware of it and tried to change his behaviour. This is also well documented in his music.

I'm no great Beatles fan, but I've always had a respect for John's honest lyrics.

Oh, and talking of In My Room, watch this study of it. I challenge you not to cry.

https://youtu.be/nTtbqs4OrfU

[RiC]

Beach Boys did surfing songs and songs about tomboys better. Also they did beards better and weird stage clothing too.

[wjcrerar]

.

[Manfred]

What did the Beatles do better than the Beach Boys ??

They broke up at the right time !

[rab2591]

Lennon's first album after the Beatles was basically 35 minutes of him screaming out the misery and pain in his life. So he might tell you he suffered more than those pampered, middle class Wilson boys. "Mother, you left me, but I never left you". If that's not pain, I don't know what is.

Again, nobody said that John or any of the other Beatles never felt pain. The point that was being made was that The Beach Boys story is more immersive than the Beatles - and this doesn’t solely include pain these guys felt. Between the alcoholism, cocaine abuse, manic depression, schizophrenia that told Brian to kill himself while on stage, deaths, “therapy” that almost killed Brian, mental illness that drove a wedge into the heart of the band, fist-fighting on stage, going from the pinnacle of fame to nearly homeless and alone, infamous lawsuits between the members, having to fire their own father, creating one of the most famous albums that didn’t even get released until decades later, etc. I would say with confidence that The Beach Boys story is more immersive (including pain but also many other aspects of life) and makes some of the music come that much more alive to the listener.

On a side note, The Cocaine Sessions bootleg is one of the more heartbreaking recordings I’ve ever heard.

[HeyJude]

None of this stuff about the BBs is incorrect. It's an epic saga, immersive as a musical experience and as a drama.

But I think "I'm not as interested in the Beatles" is being confused with "not as immersive as the Beach Boys."

If you're not as into the Beatles' story, that's fine. But as someone who has intensely studied both stories, and who has also gone on record many time saying there are elements of the BB story that are as epic as it gets, I'm *not* prepared to call the BB story more immersive or tragic or full of more suffering than the Beatles' story.

I feel silly even having to try to measure such things. If you knew both stories well and were equally interested in both stories, you'd find they're both plenty immersive (to the degree I can parse what that even means when it comes to these bands) and neither story sticks out as insanely more so than the other.

In some senses I guess the BBs were more dysfunctional than the Beatles. But to the degree the ills of their lives and profession impacted their music, I'd call that aspect pretty equal between the two bands. At a certain point, it kind of strays from the music and just becomes a "who was more f-ed up" contest.

Yeah, I guess Dennis let his drug and alcohol problems take a worse toll than any of the Beatles. None of the Beatles ever had a Landy situation. But as much as those things ended up being channeled into their music, I'm not sure the BBs being more dysfunctional on certain levels really qualifies as "doing something better than the Beatles" as the thread title implies.

[HeyJude]

Beach Boys did surfing songs and songs about tomboys better. Also they did beards better and weird stage clothing too.

It's certainly most likely the case that the Beatles collectively or individually never turned in anything as bizarre and creepy as "Lazy Lizzie."

[HeyJude]

Beach Boys did surfing songs and songs about tomboys better. Also they did beards better and weird stage clothing too.

Sorry but no Beach Boy ever did a beard better than Paul McCartney circa 1970, this is an objective fact

I'd also say McCartney did a better job of keeping a beard without looking like he was 50 years old.

Look at some of the pics of the BBs circa 1976, where Carl is 30, Dennis is 32, Al and Brian are 34, and Mike is 35. Al, Brian, and Mike in particular look like they're in their mid-40s if not older.

When Al shaved in 1983, he literally looked 10-15 years younger.

[HeyJude]

Lennon's first album after the Beatles was basically 35 minutes of him screaming out the misery and pain in his life. So he might tell you he suffered more than those pampered, middle class Wilson boys. "Mother, you left me, but I never left you". If that's not pain, I don't know what is.

Whereas Brian's scream, albeit quieter, lasted longer than 35 minutes. It began with In My Room and continues to the prssent day.

Lennon's pain (both expressed and not) did not begin nor end with the "Plastic Ono Band" album. Again, read "Tune In" by Mark Lewisohn. It literally tracks all the families from before the Beatles were born, goes through their entire childhoods all the way up to the end of 1962.

I'd actually argue that there's much more murky, creepy, traumatic things in the collective childhoods and young adulthood of the Beatles than there is of the Beach Boys, at least as far as everything we know.

I don't think this needs to turn into a "who was more abused" contest, and there may not be anything in Lewisohn's book that is as heinous as the worst Murry stories told by Steven Gaines (and while I'm more inclined to believe Gaines than others, I'm never 100% sure all of his details are impeccable as Lewisohn's are). But again, if you haven't read the Beatles' story, there's no basis to compare to Brian's or the BBs stories.

[rab2591]

Lennon's first album after the Beatles was basically 35 minutes of him screaming out the misery and pain in his life. So he might tell you he suffered more than those pampered, middle class Wilson boys. "Mother, you left me, but I never left you". If that's not pain, I don't know what is.

Again, nobody said that John or any of the other Beatles never felt pain. The point that was being made was that The Beach Boys story is more immersive than the Beatles - and this doesn’t solely include pain these guys felt. Between the alcoholism, cocaine abuse, manic depression, schizophrenia that told Brian to kill himself while on stage, deaths, “therapy” that almost killed Brian, mental illness that drove a wedge into the heart of the band, fist-fighting on stage, going from the pinnacle of fame to nearly homeless and alone, infamous lawsuits between the members, having to fire their own father, creating one of the most famous albums that didn’t even get released until decades later, etc. I would say with confidence that The Beach Boys story is more immersive (including pain but also many other aspects of life) and makes some of the music come that much more alive to the listener.

On a side note, The Cocaine Sessions bootleg is one of the more heartbreaking recordings I’ve ever heard.

In response to HeyJude I’m just going to requote my previous post here and write a little more, then let it be. I have read books about the Beatles, watched documentaries, I know their history as a band and understand what they went through as kids. Again, I wrote “perpetual suffering” for a reason in my initial post on the matter (mostly because I knew someone would turn this discussion into the pointless debate it is now). And the pain and suffering is only a small part of why their story makes the music that much more immersive...and I’d argue that The Beach Boys being around for 50+ years aids to this immersion. A lot of crazy stuff happened in those 50 years and even up to Brian’s latest solo album does he write about those crazy times.

I agree HeyJude; this shouldn’t be a pissing match about who had the most pain, and I wasn’t even trying to make it so. As my quoted above post shows there are so many aspects that make their music so immersive to The Beach Boys story...moreso than the Beatles applied to their own music, imo. But I guess we’ll agree to disagree on it.