Blue Note

[mark goddard]

i have been reading a book by James Cook called Blue Note and I'am surprised at how many of those guys were doing junk...also considering the high quality of playing. of course Blue Note gave the musicians rehearsal time which prestige didn't. But anyway Hank Mobley had a bad habit in the early 60's..Horace Silver , and of course Jackie McClean had a bad habit which he picked up as a kid driving Bird around.

[mikee]

have been reading a book by James Cook called Blue Note

'Blue Note Records : The Biography' by Richard Cook??  That is a pretty good and recent work.

 

I'am surprised at how many of those guys were doing junk

Yep but we probably shouldn't be.  I suppose that it was like psycedelic drugs to the classic rock generation of musicians.  It seems like the few who abstained were the stronger more self sufficient personality types (for example Mayall and Springsteen out of rock).  I'm not real certain about the jazz artists that abstained.  My understanding is Clifford Brown did not use.  He was so good too.  Had he not been killed (as a passenger in an auto wreck) I think he might have been 'the guy' in the early 60's.   

[Jaco]

Another thing: Rudy Van Gelder, a famous engineer from the Blue Note label is in the news in Holland. (he's of dutch origine)

Van Gelder’s handwork can be heard on hundreds of Blue Note albums as well as many other labels’ releases.

There was an article in the Volkskrant, but I couldn't find a good translation.
It said he'd fell very guilty if he would tell only a little bit about his recording tricks.
For him it's HIGH SECRET!, and it was certainly a business secret in the old days of Jazz.
(now I understand engineers...)
But he said, before you record a single note, the real secret is your goal, your sound-imagination.
(together with the artists sound-imaginations)
Three articles:

Promo about the 11 cd box

About new remastered releases: "Rudy Van Gelder BLUE NOTE series"
(warning: the page 1-2-3 links on page 1 are good, not all the links on the other pages)

And an old interview from 2004-01-30: "Rudy Van Gelder, all about jazz Article"

[mark goddard]

have been reading a book by James Cook called Blue Note

'Blue Note Records : The Biography' by Richard Cook??  That is a pretty good and recent work.

 Yes, sorry it's by Richard Cook...i own a lot of the RVG's and the sound is as close as you will get to  vinyl , it's that good. Now i know a lot of purists think the soundstage , where the instruments are placed on the recordings are off. But i disagree, these are a BIG improvement from the tinny remasters by Ron McMaster from the late 80's to early 90's.
My question is ..once they have upgraded all these sessions , will that be it ?...or will they find another way to re sell them?....maybe new remasters of the McMaster editions.

[mikee]

i own a lot of the RVG's and the sound is as close as you will get to  vinyl , it's that good.

I don't know about the vinyl sound since I did not start collecting jazz until well into the cd age but my thought on the RVG remasters are that the sound is awesome, and in particular, very warm.   I consider the non-RVG Blue Note cds to have excellent sound  (particularily for the late 80s when most were remastered).  What I liked about the old Blue Notes compared to the first few RVG remasters was that they were stereo while Rudy reverted to mono on some.  An example is the great Cannonball Adderley album, with Miles Davis as a side man!  'Something Else'.  The 1987 remaster has great sound and is in absolutely terrific stereo.  I love the stereo seperation on that version.  The RVG version improved on already suberb sound  but he went with mono.  So now I own a copy of each.   I think the stereo version of 'Something Else' is indispensible.   

Now i know a lot of purists think the soundstage , where the instruments are placed on the recordings are off.

I'm not certain if I understand. Are they referring to the stereo mix on those albums that were RVG'ed in stereo?   Could you give an example,  Perhaps from 'The Real McCoy' or 'Song For My Father'?

             

[mark goddard]

Mikee , i found this on the speakeasy board ...a short little overview as to how RVG's began ..i think it's interesting:

The RVG series was born in Japan and as Chris Albertson says, is the result of a recent "hero worship" that has sprung in recent history. If you think Blue Note is "worshipped" here in the US, imagine it 100 fold in Japan. There was an enhanced CD version of Coltrane's "Blue Trane" put out a few years back that had an interview with Rudy. The Japanese arm of Blue Note saw this and the idea of engaging RVG to remaster the label's classic dates was born in Japan only. It was originally going to be 100 titles and the series would be "special"... i.e. very limited. Rudy was paid very handsomely for his work.

Blue Note in the US heard about this series, obviously, and listened to a few and decided that it presented a marketable way to upgrade the sound of some older CD remasterings. They created this series based purely on its success in Japan. It was always about money.

As for the success of the series, I think there are quite a few that sound phenomenal and some that sound incredibly bad. I applaud Blue Note for starting this series and I will continue to buy these as they come out. However, I do so because the sound is improved over the older remaster, not for any hero worship, even though I appreciate RVG's work and recognize that his skill as a Jazz recording engineer was top shelf.

[mark goddard]

Mikee, here is one listeners take on the sound of some of the RVG's.....it's probably just personal preference and of course the equipment you play it on :

I hate to spoil the fun, but I don't like RVGs or their Japanese equivalents (JRVGS) at all. Many - if not most - (J)RVGs have a very narrow soundstage and sound very aggressive to my ears; it's as if the mid and high frequencies are "pumped up", as a member of another board once said in an e-mail to me. On my Mark Levinson-fed electrostatics with subwoofer most (J)RVGs sound as if they were recorded in the bathroom. They give me headaches and that's the last thing I want when I'm listening to music.

I prefer the older Japanese Blue Note CD reissues, known to some as "TOCJs"; OK, they're flawed, with the excessive stereo separation of many of the albums (like the old LPs), and they're probably heavily equalized, but to me they sound much more musical than the (J)RVGs and they're true sound reproductions of the 1950s and 1960s LPs.

Just my $0.02...

[mark goddard]

hey Mikee ..this is what i was talking about ..read this :

The new RVG remaster pulls in the bass and tones down the top even further – while pushing the overall treble balance forward; it also mucks about with the L/R balance, pulling the whole ensemble further between the speakers. This combined with the treble boost brings the solos further to the front and gives a feeling that players are moving to the centre to play their solos – something that does not occur on stereo pressings to my knowledge. The result is radically different from the other two: Autumn Leaves has now become a muscular, almost proto hard bop, workout, shorn of the beautiful “golden glow” and much of the introspection of the other pressings. What I suspect is that RVG is trying to recreate a dynamic pseudo-mono version.
To my mind this works quite well on the more traditionally hard bop recordings (Silver, Mobley, Dorham etc), and does increase the sense that they are playing together, but now I’ve heard something of what is really on the master tape.

[mikee]

The new RVG remaster pulls in the bass and tones down the top even further – while pushing the overall treble balance forward; it also mucks about with the L/R balance, pulling the whole ensemble further between the speakers. This combined with the treble boost brings the solos further to the front and gives a feeling that players are moving to the centre to play their solos – something that does not occur on stereo pressings to my knowledge. The result is radically different from the other two: Autumn Leaves has now become a muscular, almost proto hard bop, workout, shorn of the beautiful “golden glow” and much of the introspection of the other pressings. What I suspect is that RVG is trying to recreate a dynamic pseudo-mono version.

Thanks Zen!  Sorry to take so long to post.   I’d like to check the Speakeasy board out. What is the site name?
I find the guys audio techno-babble entertaining and at the same time I hear what he is saying.  In talking about ‘Autumn Leaves’ on Cannonballs “Something Else” album, he is citing the same album I discussed earlier in this thread.  I tend to generally agree with his conclusion.  However what Rudy created in the RVG version is not “pseudo-mono” it is real mono.  He worked off the mono version.  I think what Rudy has done is remaster all the Hackensack albums in mono (including the late ones which were also recorded in 2 track) because of his loyalty to what he feels Alfred Lion would want.  Rudy talks about this in the interview that Jaco provided a link to earlier in the thread.  http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=1116
The Englewood Cliffs records (from about June 1959 forward) have been RVG’ed in stereo.   Personally I love the Hackensack 2 track stereo versions though I also like the sound of the RVG’s.   I need to find out when the Hackensack 2 track sessions started so that I can go about collecting them.  I’m particularily interested in knowing if there is a 2 track version of “Blue Train”.                 

[mark goddard]

Mikee try this link :
http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php

they are talking about the new RVG of the gigolo by Lee Morgan. i have bought quite a few of these RVG's and 95% of the time i think there is a BIG upgrade. last night was listening to Joyride by Stanley Turrentine and Herbie's piano seemed really buried in the mix , i wonder if the new RVG helps with the mix a bit?.
years back on the old Blue Note board they discussed the RVG remasters to death!....don't know if it's been archived ?

[mikee]

last night was listening to Joyride by Stanley Turrentine and Herbie's piano seemed really buried in the mix

Thanks for the link!  How do you like “Joyride”?  I am presently listening to the RVG edition of Herbie’s 1965 “Maiden Voyage” which I think is a great recording.  It includes the 2nd Miles Davis Quintet rhythm section of Herbie-p, Tony Williams-b, and Ron Carter-b with Freddie Hubbard-tp, and George Coleman-t sax.  I feel the Coleman, who also played with Miles, is greatly underrated.  I saw him perform about 6 years ago and he has remained a superb player.  I was at the Jazz Bakery in Culver City (L.A.) one night, about that same time, to listen to the Dave Holland Quintet.  It was Dave’s birthday and Herbie showed up to listen and congratulate him.  Herbie has a real nice Ferrari.  I’m glad somebody has made some money in jazz!                   

[mark goddard]

i like Joyride ...it's a big band date with Turrentine out front. Oliver Nelson arranged it.

[mikee]

Blue Note album covers link:
http://www.gokudo.co.jp/Record/BlueNote1/

[mark goddard]

here is a great session , everyone should own Turning Point by Organist Lonnie Smith this was originally released in 69 on blue note ( just remastered as a RVG ) great version of eleanor rigby....Melvin Sparks and Idris Muhammad lay down unshakeable grooves on this album, freeing Smith and his horn soloists Lee Morgan, Bennie Maupin and Julian Priester to deliver inspired, often challenging solos. A unique and powerful album in Lonnie's discography.

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