Brian and Murry not crediting each other properly

[Mike's Beard]

Concerning the early credits, since Brian and Carl both stated that Murry produced or co-produced some of their early stuff, that's all I need to hear to recognize that he did. We all know that Murry ultimately became a pest in the studio, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have contributed valuable producer's type guidance in the early days.

Exactly, there is no arguement.

[c-man]

One last thought from me on this subject - in response to gf2000's assertion that Chuck's and Hal's recollections of Murry being more of an obstacle in the studio than anything should be taken as discounting the idea that he had any real production influence:

Hal was at none of the 1962 sessions and relatively few of the sessions from 1963-early '64 (really, only a few songs during that time), and then only the basic tracks, not the vocal overdubs: "Our Car Club", "Summer Moon", "Hawaii", probably "Be True To Your School", "Fun, Fun, Fun", "Pamela Jean", and some other of BW's outside productions. I don't think Murry was present for the tracking session on the first of these, and I'm not sure about the second. My point is, his exposure to Murry during that year or so was limited in scope compared to the total number of sessions for which Murry was present and acting in an unofficial producer's role.

As for Chuck, I think it quite possible that his memory of the fake console being set up for Murry to have something to "tinker with" comes from later, rather than earlier - I think it likely that after Murry was fired as their manager and "banned" from the control booth, then stayed away from their sessions for about a year before returning for some of the Today! vocal sessions, that THAT'S when the drastic measure of the fake board was undertaken, to stop Murry from having any control over the records' sound in a technical sense. Maybe Brian or Chuck said something like, "Uh-oh, he's back, and I just know he's gonna try to twist some knobs while he's up here - what do we do?" The resulting solution was a desperate means to what was envisioned as an unpleasant end. I have no proof, though, so it's just speculation. But what seems to be Chuck's downplaying of Murry's in-studio role could be clouded by his lasting memory of Murry trying to hi-jack the "Help Me, Rhonda" vocal session. Regardless, it's trumped by Brian's and Carl's statements, on multiple occasions, that Murry did indeed help produce some of their records.

[Cam Mott]

So Carl name checks their first "record" as co-produced by Murry.  So either recordings for their first single or first album? Single I assume.

For Murry as Producer Brian specifies after "early 1962" until whenever Brian took over.  Carl also specifies 409, Shut Down, and the first sess' for IMR.

I don't know how all of that lines up but according to his sons that would be where we can hear what Murry's uncredited co-production/production sounded like and might be guidance as to what other recordings may have been Murry colabs producer-wise.

[guitarfool2002]

Concerning the early credits, since Brian and Carl both stated that Murry produced or co-produced some of their early stuff, that's all I need to hear to recognize that he did. We all know that Murry ultimately became a pest in the studio, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have contributed valuable producer's type guidance in the early days.

Exactly, there is no arguement.

Maybe - to answer the first post in all of this - the reason why Murry didn't get nor did he seek a production or co-producer credit is in the comment above.

Perhaps Murry was doing what he thought a *manager* should do, and giving advice which was along the lines of what he thought a manager did for the band he was managing. Thus, he got credit for and paid for being a manager, as I've said earlier. He thought he was giving valuable manager's type guidance, and that's what his role was - manager.

When it was shown through the actual sessions and the recording process that Brian Wilson was the one with the vision, and the one "leading" the group and providing the musical directions, it was made even more clear who was producing the records when Capitol gave him credit (and thanks) starting with the Surfer Girl album. Venet's credit was gone after that, Murry's name wasn't listed as producer...because Murry wasn't producing and perhaps didn't think he was producing as much as he was trying to fill the role of manager. Musically, he didn't have the skills or the vision to do what Brian could do in the studio, and at least by Surfer Girl Capitol even conceded and erased Venet's credit entirely.

Keep in mind too that this exact time was when the role of producer if not the role of the recording studio itself was beginning to change dramatically from what it had been to what it would become. The "studio" was a separate instrument in itself, the sounds and technology played more of a role. The "producer" definition was being shaped by those like Phil Spector, and with indie studios like Gold Star and United/Western, there were less stringent rules and more experimentation allowed. That's how all of it developed too. It wasn't a case of getting an artist and a full orchestra into the studio and recording a live performance, then choosing the best takes. It was actually building up the song in the studio and using whatever then-new techniques and technology was available to help create sounds that were not going to be geared for a live performance on stage, but rather a "record" in a new way of thinking.

Perhaps try to pinpoint when *Brian* started to do things like double the harmonies through overdubs and start using studio sounds as Spector was doing. Perhaps around Surfin USA.

And consider there are reports that Brian was - through 1963 - actively going to other sessions around LA to observe, and to soak in all of what he saw and heard going on. It was new stuff, sometimes radically different from even a few years earlier where they'd be looking to capture a full live performance rather than build it up track by track. It was a guy like Spector with Larry Levine using echo and reverb, a guy like Stan Ross doing all kinds of crazy stuff, it was the logical extension of what Les Paul was doing with his "new sound" a decade earlier by pioneering some of the same techniques.

It was the time when producing a record focused as much on the producer's role and the role of the studio as much as on the artist and the material. The old "A&R guy" role, as Venet, Tom Wilson, and others filled, was being replaced and reshaped by Wilson, Spector, etc.

Murry was still in the 50's mindset. Capitol was still in the practice of assigning an A&R guy like Venet to a new artist. Chuck Britz is there when the Beach Boys first come to Western, and he saw firsthand what was happening and who was putting forth the musical direction (and vision) for the music...and as he said, it was Brian. In about a year's time, Capitol conceded that too. And they conceded that and gave Brian full credit more on what he was doing than some "bet" between Murry and Venet. If Brian wasn't doing the job, Capitol would not have agreed to take Venet off the credit and put Brian on. Capitol as a multimillion dollar label is not going to affect their finances on the back of a bet between a manager of a band who had just been signed a year prior and the word of one of their youngest execs. If Brian wasn't delivering, Venet's name on the records and presence at the sessions would still have been a factor. But Brian was delivering.

I think - again - Murry thought he was doing what a manager should do for their client, and to him that included managing the studio activity as well. But in terms of bringing the songs to life, his son Brian was the one making it happen much more than Murry, no matte how much Murry was managing.

In terms of modern lingo, Murry could have been "micromanaging" the band in ways that could have a negative effect on the processes he was trying to micromanage. But that's what he thought his role was in terms of 1962-63 until the band couldn't take it anymore and canned him.

[guitarfool2002]

So Carl name checks their first "record" as co-produced by Murry.  So either recordings for their first single or first album? Single I assume.

For Murry as Producer Brian specifies after "early 1962" until whenever Brian took over.  Carl also specifies 409, Shut Down, and the first sess' for IMR.

I don't know how all of that lines up but according to his sons that would be where we can hear what Murry's uncredited co-production/production sounded like and might be guidance as to what other recordings may have been Murry colabs producer-wise.

Listen to the Sunrays album which Murry produced. Consider the year that came out, and consider it was what Brian was doing early in 1963 when he was producing the Beach Boys. The Sunrays were Murry's spiteful attempt to promote a "surf band" that would be better than his sons who had fired him, and it ended up sounding like the music which Brian had already done and moved ahead. That's what Murry would have had the Beach Boys sounding like instead of Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, and Sloop John B. As Brian said "the 409 sound on Help Me Rhonda"...that was Murry in a nutshell. Before that, it could have been "the Lawrence Welk sound on I Get Around". He didn't get it.

Murry was an anachronism, from the time he wanted Brian to make records like they did in the 50's to the time he tried to one-up Brian with the Sunrays and sounded a few years out of date when he did.

[guitarfool2002]

And to sum up once again, it's good to see that even with a majority of those posting to this thread, there doesn't seem to be support for going back and changing any production credits in an official capacity any time in the foreseeable future. That's a good thing. They shouldn't be changed.

[Cam Mott]

So Carl name checks their first "record" as co-produced by Murry.  So either recordings for their first single or first album? Single I assume.

For Murry as Producer Brian specifies after "early 1962" until whenever Brian took over.  Carl also specifies 409, Shut Down, and the first sess' for IMR.

I don't know how all of that lines up but according to his sons that would be where we can hear what Murry's uncredited co-production/production sounded like and might be guidance as to what other recordings may have been Murry colabs producer-wise.

Listen to the Sunrays album which Murry produced. Consider the year that came out, and consider it was what Brian was doing early in 1963 when he was producing the Beach Boys. The Sunrays were Murry's spiteful attempt to promote a "surf band" that would be better than his sons who had fired him, and it ended up sounding like the music which Brian had already done and moved ahead. That's what Murry would have had the Beach Boys sounding like instead of Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, and Sloop John B. As Brian said "the 409 sound on Help Me Rhonda"...that was Murry in a nutshell. Before that, it could have been "the Lawrence Welk sound on I Get Around". He didn't get it.

Murry was an anachronism, from the time he wanted Brian to make records like they did in the 50's to the time he tried to one-up Brian with the Sunrays and sounded a few years out of date when he did.

Maybe we are just not going to agree on this. If we are disagreeing.

I've considered it but to me it is after the fact in this case and for a different group of guys and a distraction from what Murry actually did produce/co-produce for the BBs.  We don't have to depend on speculative comparables or unrelated material when Carl and Brian have pointed us to some of the material Murry actually did co-produce and produce for the BBs. 

[guitarfool2002]

You asked for something concrete to compare what Murry actually did produce, and that's the Sunrays album. No argument, just delivering an answer to the request. Listen to the Sunrays album, keeping in mind when that came out, and that's perhaps the best example of Murry's production ideas.

Not doubting the Wilson brothers regarding those early songs/sessions. It's when it goes beyond those earlier tracks and into 1964 that I challenge. But since there isn't much support if any at all (at least here) to change the production credits any time soon, it looks like the credits will stay the same as they should.

[Emily]

...Listen to the Sunrays album...

Do we have to?

[hideyotsuburaya]

Sunrays leader RICK HENN just had a birthday (see Facebook site https://www.facebook.com/richard.henn.9 where we're 'friends').  I really dug his LONGBOARDS RULE

[Cam Mott]

You asked for something concrete to compare what Murry actually did produce, and that's the Sunrays album. No argument, just delivering an answer to the request. Listen to the Sunrays album, keeping in mind when that came out, and that's perhaps the best example of Murry's production ideas.

Not doubting the Wilson brothers regarding those early songs/sessions. It's when it goes beyond those earlier tracks and into 1964 that I challenge. But since there isn't much support if any at all (at least here) to change the production credits any time soon, it looks like the credits will stay the same as they should.

Aw, I was looking for "Murry's uncredited co-production/production" but I understand about after 1964, did someone in this thread challenge that or advocate for retroactively changing the Producer credits?

[c-man]

I'm dredging up this old thread, not to restart an argument, but rather to add another instance of Brian stating Murry served as their producer early on - and that he (Brian) actually learned something about record production from his dad (as controversial as that may sound) - just so we can have these statements all in one tidy, consolidated place:

To this:

Here's an excerpt from an interview with Carl Wilson, published in the New Jersey-based music paper Aquarian (April 6, 1983), prior to the band's April 8th appearance at Brendan Byrne Arena:
Interviewer: "Your dad managed the group at the start, didn't he?"
Carl: "He co-produced our first record too. He produced "409", "Shut Down", and the first session of "In My Room"."

And here's part of a radio interview with Brian Wilson, conducted by Nikki Wine on October 4, 1980, for The Grapevine program on KHTZ, as reprinted in the BBFUN newletter of November 1980:
Interviewer: "When did you actually start producing records for The Beach Boys? How many records into the whole thing did you take over?"
Brian: "Well, I took over in 1962, mid '62. Nik Venet was producing us in '62, the early part. I took over, well actually my father was producing after Nik Venet, then I took over after my father. That's what happened."


and this:


Here's another quote - from a Brian interview recorded June 7, 1985 for Westwood One Radio, as reprinted in the February 1986 STOMP!:

Interviewer: "You kind of became the studio leader of the group."
Brian: "In a sense, yeah."
Interviewer: "...and you produced."
Brian: "My dad was too though, he was kind of the leader. He was our producer but I learned, he and I learned from this guy (Gary Usher) how to record, this friend of ours, we were grateful for that."


we can add this (scroll to about 4:38 in the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hokN_2MQH-c