God Only Knows Instruments/Credits
c-man:
Quote from: DonnyL on September 26, 2016, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: c-man on September 26, 2016, 11:41:17 AM
Quote from: aeijtzsche on September 25, 2016, 05:26:55 PM
There is the bizarre question of why the string bass was split in some fashion and given its own track in addition to being audible on the same track as the general rhythm instruments. That's another one I'm just tired of not having an answer for.
The original "GOK" 4-track tape has horns, violins, and accordions on one track - drums, harpsichord, piano, guitar, and percussion on another - and bass by itself on a third (actually the second) track. The fourth track contains a mono mix of the other three tracks, as is sometimes the case with BW-produced 4-tracks of this era.
If they baffled off the upright bass and recorded it with a super-directional mic, that might account for no leakage from the other instruments...but if it was baffled, would it have still picked up on the mics of the other instruments? Maybe the baffle and directional mic combined were sufficient for keeping out the sounds of the other instruments, but the baffle wasn't enough to keep the low frequencies of the upright from leaking out into the microphones of the other instruments? The only other thing that would make sense would be if Brian had Lyle redo the upright as an overdub on its own track, which would still leave the original upright sound there as leakage onto the other tracks (a similar thing happened with the drums on the 1963 track "The Rocking Surfer" - Dennis' original drumming was replaced, yet it's still there as leakage on the remaining original tracks, along with Mike's saxophone). The only problem with that "GOK" bass theory would be that there would have had to be enough time left on the clock from the original 3.75 hour session (the standard three hours plus 45 minutes of overtime) after the other musicians were dismissed, otherwise we'd expect to see a higher pay rate for Lyle (outside of officially-designated AFM session "leader" Hal Blaine and contractor Jay Migliori, the only players on the "GOK" session payed a higher rate than the others were Leonard Hartman, Bill Green, and Jim Horn - and each of their names is accompanied by a notation that they played a "double" - and in Bill Green's case, he was paid even more, evidently for staying and adding the sax solo) - but we don't see that for Lyle.
A good, and probably unanswerable, question.
I think we've been through the ringer on this question a few times!
... I didn't know about the timeclock issue though ... do you think it's possible Lyle overdubbed the extra bass at a later date?
MAYBE the clue lies in the sax overdub. Why would they have recorded an ENTIRE band on on 2 tracks instead of 3, unless that third was to be reserved for an overdub?
Craig, do you know if the sax solo was overdubbed before or after vocal work began? Because if it were before, then a decent theory might be that the third track was reserved for the sax solo, and when Brian decided he didn't want to keep it, he may have wanted a deeper bass sound and added the upright overdub.
If the sax solo was done on the vocal tape (as an overdub on the 8-track master), then my best theory is that Brian wanted more isolation and wiggle room for that bass and it was done at the live session.
The sax solo was overdubbed to the 8-track master, prior to the vocal sessions...the Columbia Studios 8-track master bears the same date as that given for the Western Recorders basic tracking session (3/10)...if both dates are correct, Brian cut the basic track between midnight and 4:15am at Western, then at some point (either immediately afterward or later that day) hopped across the street to Columbia, apparently bringing Bill Green with him (or having him meet him there), and transferred the mono mix to 8-track, then overdubbed the sax. Interestingly, two versions of the sax solo were taped....one on Track 1, the second on Track 6, both later wiped and replaced with vocals - meaning the version with the sax solo on the box set exists only from a vintage rough mix).
So, I'd say your second theory is likely correct - similarly, the Fender bass on "Here Today" was delegated to its own discrete track, apparently to allow more flexibility in mixdown.
DonnyL:
Quote from: c-man on September 26, 2016, 05:17:20 PM
Quote from: DonnyL on September 26, 2016, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: c-man on September 26, 2016, 11:41:17 AM
Quote from: aeijtzsche on September 25, 2016, 05:26:55 PM
There is the bizarre question of why the string bass was split in some fashion and given its own track in addition to being audible on the same track as the general rhythm instruments. That's another one I'm just tired of not having an answer for.
The original "GOK" 4-track tape has horns, violins, and accordions on one track - drums, harpsichord, piano, guitar, and percussion on another - and bass by itself on a third (actually the second) track. The fourth track contains a mono mix of the other three tracks, as is sometimes the case with BW-produced 4-tracks of this era.
If they baffled off the upright bass and recorded it with a super-directional mic, that might account for no leakage from the other instruments...but if it was baffled, would it have still picked up on the mics of the other instruments? Maybe the baffle and directional mic combined were sufficient for keeping out the sounds of the other instruments, but the baffle wasn't enough to keep the low frequencies of the upright from leaking out into the microphones of the other instruments? The only other thing that would make sense would be if Brian had Lyle redo the upright as an overdub on its own track, which would still leave the original upright sound there as leakage onto the other tracks (a similar thing happened with the drums on the 1963 track "The Rocking Surfer" - Dennis' original drumming was replaced, yet it's still there as leakage on the remaining original tracks, along with Mike's saxophone). The only problem with that "GOK" bass theory would be that there would have had to be enough time left on the clock from the original 3.75 hour session (the standard three hours plus 45 minutes of overtime) after the other musicians were dismissed, otherwise we'd expect to see a higher pay rate for Lyle (outside of officially-designated AFM session "leader" Hal Blaine and contractor Jay Migliori, the only players on the "GOK" session payed a higher rate than the others were Leonard Hartman, Bill Green, and Jim Horn - and each of their names is accompanied by a notation that they played a "double" - and in Bill Green's case, he was paid even more, evidently for staying and adding the sax solo) - but we don't see that for Lyle.
A good, and probably unanswerable, question.
I think we've been through the ringer on this question a few times!
... I didn't know about the timeclock issue though ... do you think it's possible Lyle overdubbed the extra bass at a later date?
MAYBE the clue lies in the sax overdub. Why would they have recorded an ENTIRE band on on 2 tracks instead of 3, unless that third was to be reserved for an overdub?
Craig, do you know if the sax solo was overdubbed before or after vocal work began? Because if it were before, then a decent theory might be that the third track was reserved for the sax solo, and when Brian decided he didn't want to keep it, he may have wanted a deeper bass sound and added the upright overdub.
If the sax solo was done on the vocal tape (as an overdub on the 8-track master), then my best theory is that Brian wanted more isolation and wiggle room for that bass and it was done at the live session.
The sax solo was overdubbed to the 8-track master, prior to the vocal sessions...the Columbia Studios 8-track master bears the same date as that given for the Western Recorders basic tracking session (3/10)...if both dates are correct, Brian cut the basic track between midnight and 4:15am at Western, then at some point (either immediately afterward or later that day) hopped across the street to Columbia, apparently bringing Bill Green with him (or having him meet him there), and transferred the mono mix to 8-track, then overdubbed the sax. Interestingly, two versions of the sax solo were taped....one on Track 1, the second on Track 6, both later wiped and replaced with vocals - meaning the version with the sax solo on the box set exists only from a vintage rough mix).
So, I'd say your second theory is likely correct - similarly, the Fender bass on "Here Today" was delegated to its own discrete track, apparently to allow more flexibility in mixdown.
Ah makes sense, good info!
It seems so ODD to have all those instruments on two tracks, yet ONE OF TWO basses on it's own track! But who are we to question the master ...
TheWonderfulHarpsichord:
Quote from: c-man on September 26, 2016, 05:04:01 PM
Quote from: metal flake paint on September 26, 2016, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: c-man on September 25, 2016, 11:01:18 PM
Quote from: TheWonderfulHarpsichord on September 25, 2016, 04:11:50 PM
Quote from: c-man on September 25, 2016, 03:19:59 PM
Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?
In the September 1990 edition of Select magazine, Bruce makes the following observation about the GOK session:
"I was there!...Carl was in the booth playing 12-string cos there was no more room. And there were about six fiddles - we didn't call them strings, they were fiddles - and an electric bass and an acoustic bass and a keyboard and some percussion, and the guy who's playing the drums."
Hmm...well, maybe Carl and Carol BOTH played 12-string on this session (the way Carl and Jerry Cole both played 12-string on "California Girls", and Barney and Glen both played 12-string on some of the other Pet Sounds cuts). Carol definitely played 12-string electric on the second session of "Good Vibrations" (April 9th at Gold Star), and most likely on "I'm Waiting For The Day" (similar situation to "GOK" - apparently only two basses, definitely Ray on the Fender and Lyle on the upright, leaving Carol as the probable guitarist) and the basic track to "Caroline, No" (although she also overdubbed the Dano bass on that one).
This is all very interesting. If Carl and Carol did indeed both play on the song then did they trade parts back and forth and switch out?
On Bruce's account he says "six fiddles". I had always assumed it was a string quartet and not 6 strings. I guess there is really no way to tell while just listening.
As for the Clarinets and Saxophones i've been trying ever so hard to hear, I recently thought I heard the bass clarinet playing along side the cello and perhaps the saxophones playing along side the accordians, most noticable at the end. Though, it could just be my ears playing tricks on me...
Also thanks for the Bruce quote, I couldn't remember where I had heard it from.
TheWonderfulHarpsichord:
Quote from: c-man on September 26, 2016, 05:04:01 PM
Quote from: metal flake paint on September 26, 2016, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: c-man on September 25, 2016, 11:01:18 PM
Quote from: TheWonderfulHarpsichord on September 25, 2016, 04:11:50 PM
Quote from: c-man on September 25, 2016, 03:19:59 PM
Assuming the three-bass scenario led me to originally conclude that Carl must be playing the guitar, but as I later pointed out on this board, and as you mentioned above, the jazzy guitar doodling between takes points to a studio pro rather than Carl, and according to someone on this board, Terry Melcher had gone on record as saying Carl did not play on the session. If Bruce was recalling that he did, perhaps he was thinking of a different session (do we have a source for that Bruce quote)?
In the September 1990 edition of Select magazine, Bruce makes the following observation about the GOK session:
"I was there!...Carl was in the booth playing 12-string cos there was no more room. And there were about six fiddles - we didn't call them strings, they were fiddles - and an electric bass and an acoustic bass and a keyboard and some percussion, and the guy who's playing the drums."
Hmm...well, maybe Carl and Carol BOTH played 12-string on this session (the way Carl and Jerry Cole both played 12-string on "California Girls", and Barney and Glen both played 12-string on some of the other Pet Sounds cuts). Carol definitely played 12-string electric on the second session of "Good Vibrations" (April 9th at Gold Star), and most likely on "I'm Waiting For The Day" (similar situation to "GOK" - apparently only two basses, definitely Ray on the Fender and Lyle on the upright, leaving Carol as the probable guitarist) and the basic track to "Caroline, No" (although she also overdubbed the Dano bass on that one).
Also I thought I would bring these up. I have no idea if these are reliable sources or not. I am dedicated to get to the bottom of this!
http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/owncharts.html Carol
http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/carolkay.htm Carol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XByMda7YooI Isolated strings, horns, percussion, and bass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCTVcNsJGX0
Again, I don't know if these are reliable
metal flake paint:
Quote from: TheWonderfulHarpsichord on September 26, 2016, 05:28:19 PM
Also thanks for the Bruce quote, I couldn't remember where I had heard it from.
No worries! Thanks for the YouTube link, some great isolated mixes there!
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