From Brianistas to Lovesters

[CenturyDeprived]

This is a Beach Boys fan site. Mike Love is an important member of the Beach Boys. In fact, during their 1963-1966 glory years, his importance was second only to Brian.

Why, on a Beach Boys fan site, is it considered remarkable that some people would want to defend a Beach Boy?

Of course it makes sense in a general sense. The question is more that this requires nuance. Just because someone is a member of one's favorite band, that doesn't in and of itself mean that any/all their actions are by definition excusable or defensible, right?

[Custom Machine]

The events of the past few months have caused me to reflect - what causes fans of the Beach Boys and Brian's music in Particular, and who have studied and loved Brian and his music for years, to change - metamorphose in fact - to become apologists for and advocates for Mike Love and his behavior and his (in their mind) crucial and under appreciated and misrepresented contribution to the Beach Boys' music?

I am not a Mike Love hater by any means, and I don't want this thread to be a Mike bashing session.  But two well known and longtime fans active on message boards for decades have been banned from here, both of whom appeared to have gone to the dark side of interrupting every thread with pro Mike sentiments and endless repeats of the same arguments and rationalizations, and in one case spreading malicious false anti Brian and his camp information.  We all know the three initials I'm talking about here.  In Cam's case, I remember on the Smile board he would take umbrage with the then current viewpoint that Mike gave "resistance" to the Smile project (which I think is almost indisputable, what is not is that Mike's resistance somehow derailed the entire album) - but he also had a lot of insight into the sessions, the history of the album, how things might have been put together, what the party reels were about, and other Beach Boy matters.  But then he became almost a caricature of himself, every post pro Mike to an extreme and even ridiculous degree.  The same arguments over and over and over again.  And then both allegedly went berserk with PMs to other members and the administrators.

What happened to create this change?  Are their personalities by nature contradictarian, delighting in creating controversy and going against the mainstream?  Did something happen with their interactions with the Brian camp to disillusion them with Brian and in spite they decided to throw their hats (baseball caps of course) into the Love ring?

I think this is worth discussing because I find it disturbing that these long time contributors like AGD, Cam, and others like Lee Dempsey, bgas, Ian are now active over at pet sounds, when they could be over here.

Mods if you think this thread is more sandbox material feel free to move it there.

Van Dyke Parks, working surreptitiously behind the scenes, is responsible.

[Rick5150]

It is funny that we spew venom at Mike for not letting go of the past (song credits, for example) and how he is continually bringing up the same things about the Wilson’s and drug use, his meditation, etc.

Yet when you ask someone why they do not like Mike Love, they will not let go of the past (Rock & Roll Hall of Fame speech) and will continually bring up the same things about Mike “firing” Brian from the C50 tour, the multiple lawsuits, etc.
 
We like Brian. Brian likes Mike. Logically, we should like Mike. I cannot say I was a Brianista, but after listening to everyone put every single thing Mike does under a microscope and examine every word and action - then put a negative spin on things that were  innocuous as if Mike has always had this tremendous agenda – it gets old and I have had enough.

It’s like watching a bunch of bullies beat up some guy you did not like, but it gets carried too far and you start to feel bad for the guy and sympathize with him. It is easy to beat up on Mike and is the “in” thing to do. I don’t think he deserves half the amount of sh*t he gets.

[CenturyDeprived]

It is funny that we spew venom at Mike for not letting go of the past (song credits, for example) and how he is continually bringing up the same things about the Wilson’s and drug use, his meditation, etc.

Yet when you ask someone why they do not like Mike Love, they will not let go of the past (Rock & Roll Hall of Fame speech) and will continually bring up the same things about Mike “firing” Brian from the C50 tour, the multiple lawsuits, etc.
  

You do realize that this is because he deflects ALL blame and ALL responsibility for these things, right? And that really, really bugs a lot of people. That is not just a Mike thing, I personally know people who do that type of thing, and it very, very much is a personality trait that I find super uncool. It's a reaction to that highly regrettable trait. Which in and of itself is probably a defense mechanism. If another band that I was a huge fan of had someone who acted in a similar fashion, I would be equally critical of that person.And I hope you would think (as I do) that if he actually said that he f*cked up, that he acted in a regrettable way, that ego got in the way etc, that MANY people would actually, really forgive him for these things?

But unfortunately *in addition* to not apologizing or having any kind of acceptance of blame for past events... he newly picks at old wounds with swipes in new interviews. Let's not pretend this is all just some old stuff. It keeps flaring up because he seemingly cannot not say something passive-aggressive about his bandmates.

[Amy B.]

You do realize that this is because he deflects ALL blame and ALL responsibility for these things, right? And that really, really bugs a lot of people. That is not just a Mike thing, I personally know people who do that type of thing, and it very, very much is a personality trait that I find super uncool. It's a reaction to that highly regrettable trait. Which in and of itself is probably a defense mechanism. If another band that I was a huge fan of had someone who acted in a similar fashion, I would be equally critical of that person.And I hope you would think (as I do) that if he actually said that he f*cked up, that he acted in a regrettable way, that ego got in the way etc, that MANY people would actually, really forgive him for these things?

Yes, it's that old saying that it's not whether you make mistakes (everyone does), it's how you deal with those mistakes. And he never takes responsibility. After all these years, he shows almost no self awareness. That annoys me.

[Debbie KL]

The people posting on this thread seem to have balanced opinions on things, even if they are more Brian fans than Mike fans.  They aren't anti Mike, although they may be pro Brian.  They recognize Mike's important role at different times in the band.  Which is the way it should be.

But the thing I'm talking about is the unrelenting defending Mike against any criticism or perceived negative comment, and then usually turning that defense into an attack or sarcastic insult against the person or persons making the comment.  The civility of the discourse on these issues has sadly disappeared, and this has resulted in banning and "purges."

Sometimes I think all message boards like this may have a limited lifespan, because something similar happened to the smile shop board which was the impetus for the creation of this board.  The weird thing is it's not just new board members who may be a little crazy with their own agenda joining the board, trolling and eventually destroying the board, it's long term members who for years appeared able to discuss controversial topics amicably even when representing their viewpoint vociferously.  Does this reflect the general coarsening of our culture and the rising frequency of Internet bullying on Twitter, Facebook and other social media sites?  I don't know but I wish something could happen to reverse this trend, because it obfuscates more than it illuminates the issues.

I wish I could answer this.  

I am pro-Brian, not anti-Mike.  But - okay I openly laughed at the production on SIP - and I've complained about the abrasive published comments from Mike - particularly when I knew that they were blatantly not factual.  This seems to earn this title of anti-Mike from some people - while relentless attacks on Brian's work and family are just fine.  It's quite odd to me.

Why it became so extreme, racist and sexist, I can't answer - I guess you'd need to go to the "peaceful" board and ask them, since most of them are there.  This bizarre political year in the US is equally inexplicable.  

[Cyncie]

In my years on this board, I have attempted to avoid the outright brawls, even while not holding back with posting my own opinions. My opinions of any of the band are based solely on what I observe publicly. I don't know any of them and have never met them, even in a paid for meet-and-greet.

Having said that, I was always a fan of the Beach Boys as a band first, and Brian second (as the creator of the music and the sound).  I have stated that I like Kokomo and that Mike's earthier vocal contrast with Brian's falsetto is key to the Beach Boys sound. I have praised Mike's work ethic and willingness to keep the band afloat during a time when the Wilson's seemed to have burned out on it. I have said that I can understand Mike and the band being hesitant about SMiLE, because Brian was gambling with all of their futures. I made all of these comments here, on this board. Yet, I'm lumped in with the Brianistas.

Why? Because I have also publicly stated that Mike's interviews demonstrate a shocking lack of empathy for the psychological struggles of his cousins. Because I have suggested that someone with Brian's diagnosis might need a strong hand like Melinda's to guide him, and that fact does not make her a "handler," no matter what Mike, or certain board members, say. Because I have stated that prescription medication for a mental illness is not the same as "being medicated" or "controlled" and I've called Mike's public comments to that effect bull crap. And, because most of all, I have made a point that Mike is his own worst enemy. Brian's story is a comeback story. The public loves that and have empathy for Brian because of it. That has elevated Brian's status with the public. Meanwhile, Mike churns out interview after interview making unfeeling, snide comments about the person the public has decided to embrace. He will NOT get the public on his side using this strategy.

Ironically, he almost had them on his side with C50. Why? Because he showed some concern, some empathy, some effort at team work. Then, he blew it. He walked. Any gains he made then were thrown into the dust bin and he's been trying to build his reputation back up by saying all of the wrong things, again. A lot of the dust ups on this board would fade into the past if Mike didn't keep regurgitating the same old points. Every time he goes into an interview with yet another "The Wilson's did drugs, I didn't. I was cheated, etc, etc" it brings it all up for scrutiny again. He needs a PR guy to tell him when to zip it, and how to present his POV without tearing down other band members.

Anyway, I feel that, when I comment on this board, I spell out my points fairly clearly and rationally. Yet, there were those members who would descend on my comments to "correct" my erroneous thinking. Because, you know, they know stuff I don't. This "we know stuff, so your opinion doesn't count" attitude is one of the reasons I backed off my posting. It just wasn't worth the energy.

But, hey! Maybe they do know all about it. I can't speak to any of these people's private lives. But, I do know this about recent events: PUBLICLY, it's been Brian who has taken the high road, rarely saying anything bad about Mike. Mike can't claim the same thing. And, public opinion is determined by public action. Not the behind the scenes whispers of a fan board.

[CenturyDeprived]

I am pro-Brian, not anti-Mike.  But - okay I openly laughed at the production on SIP - and I've complained about the abrasive published comments from Mike.  This seems to earn this title of anti-Mike from some people - while relentless attacks on Brian's work and family are just fine.  It's quite odd to me.

I will say that I think the production style on SIP is laughable (despite a few decent songs buried there). I will also say that I think that while I don't doubt that Brian did work hard and put lots of genuine effort into NPP (probably way more time/effort than Mike put into SIP, which Bruce apparently described as a rush job to meet a release deadline), I nevertheless have a number of issues with NPP.

I'm a HUGE Brian fan, but I'll be totally honest here (I hope nobody faults me for that!) and admit to having the record grow off me in hindsight, despite the fact that I really like some parts of it, and am genuinely moved by One Kind of Love. This is probably because of my major preference to have less guest stars, and my not being much of a fan of Joe Thomas' production style. (Ironically, again I will put some blame on Mike for screwing up the reunion, which I think had it gone on for multiple albums, would have had different BB members shouldering the vocal lead load on these songs, in whatever form they would have taken, instead of guest stars getting those leads).

I will say that, respectfully speaking, I think the mods' decision to have pushback at the comical review of NPP could have rubbed many board members the wrong way. Speaking for myself, I was laughing at the thread, and wasn't offended by it. Yet of course they were in a tough spot, because I'm sure that they don't want people who worked on the record to ditch the board and be made fun of. That said, I totally understand the inclination to defend Brian (and defending what I believe to be genuine, heartfelt intentions on the record) against a thread that seemed mean-spirited, but I took that thread to being more like a Dean Martin comedy roast, where everyone (IMO as I recall, mostly fairly) got their balls busted.  

[Debbie KL]

In my years on this board, I have attempted to avoid the outright brawls, even while not holding back with posting my own opinions. My opinions of any of the band are based solely on what I observe publicly. I don't know any of them and have never met them, even in a paid for meet-and-greet.

Having said that, I was always a fan of the Beach Boys as a band first, and Brian second (as the creator of the music and the sound).  I have stated that I like Kokomo and that Mike's earthier vocal contrast with Brian's falsetto is key to the Beach Boys sound. I have praised Mike's work ethic and willingness to keep the band afloat during a time when the Wilson's seemed to have burned out on it. I have said that I can understand Mike and the band being hesitant about SMiLE, because Brian was gambling with all of their futures. I made all of these comments here, on this board. Yet, I'm lumped in with the Brianistas.

Why? Because I have also publicly stated that Mike's interviews demonstrate a shocking lack of empathy for the psychological struggles of his cousins. Because I have suggested that someone with Brian's diagnosis might need a strong hand like Melinda's to guide him, and that fact does not make her a "handler," no matter what Mike, or certain board members, say. Because I have stated that prescription medication for a mental illness is not the same as "being medicated" or "controlled" and I've called Mike's public comments to that effect bull crap. And, because most of all, I have made a point that Mike is his own worst enemy. Brian's story is a comeback story. The public loves that and have empathy for Brian because of it. That has elevated Brian's status with the public. Meanwhile, Mike churns out interview after interview making unfeeling, snide comments about the person the public has decided to embrace. He will NOT get the public on his side using this strategy.

Ironically, he almost had them on his side with C50. Why? Because he showed some concern, some empathy, some effort at team work. Then, he blew it. He walked. Any gains he made then were thrown into the dust bin and he's been trying to build his reputation back up by saying all of the wrong things, again. A lot of the dust ups on this board would fade into the past if Mike didn't keep regurgitating the same old points. Every time he goes into an interview with yet another "The Wilson's did drugs, I didn't. I was cheated, etc, etc" it brings it all up for scrutiny again. He needs a PR guy to tell him when to zip it, and how to present his POV without tearing down other band members.

Anyway, I feel that, when I comment on this board, I spell out my points fairly clearly and rationally. Yet, there were those members who would descend on my comments to "correct" my erroneous thinking. Because, you know, they know stuff I don't. This "we know stuff, so your opinion doesn't count" attitude is one of the reasons I backed off my posting. It just wasn't worth the energy.

But, hey! Maybe they do know all about it. I can't speak to any of these people's private lives. But, I do know this about recent events: PUBLICLY, it's been Brian who has taken the high road, rarely saying anything bad about Mike. Mike can't claim the same thing. And, public opinion is determined by public action. Not the behind the scenes whispers of a fan board.

Beautifully said.  I hope I haven't "soiled' your comments with my approval.  

We'll let those bios speak this year (in addition to Brian's tremendous success on this tour - as you referenced the fan good will).

Mike seems like he'll get more tabloid press (from early indications).  Brian seems to be speaking from the heart so far (with the Google reveal of pages).  I have my preference.  Which will get more sales?  I have no idea. I can be cynical and say that the show Aquarius will get Mike more attention, if that's what it's all about - briefly, anyway.  

I'm just really pleased that Brian finally has a genuine autobiography (yeah, he's not at the keyboard typing, but it's clearly all from him).

Reading another Charles Manson iteration (well, actually an old, unproven one)?  Maybe for new titillation seekers.  I'm too old and informed.

[Debbie KL]

I am pro-Brian, not anti-Mike.  But - okay I openly laughed at the production on SIP - and I've complained about the abrasive published comments from Mike.  This seems to earn this title of anti-Mike from some people - while relentless attacks on Brian's work and family are just fine.  It's quite odd to me.

I will say that I think the production style on SIP is laughable (despite a few decent songs buried there). I will also say that I think that while I don't doubt that Brian did work hard and put lots of genuine effort into NPP (probably way more time/effort than Mike put into SIP, which Bruce apparently described as a rush job to meet a release deadline), I nevertheless have a number of issues with NPP.

I'm a HUGE Brian fan, but I'll be totally honest here (I hope nobody faults me for that!) and admit to having the record grow off me in hindsight, despite the fact that I really like some parts of it, and am genuinely moved by One Kind of Love. This is probably because of my major preference to have less guest stars, and my not being much of a fan of Joe Thomas' production style. (Ironically, again I will put some blame on Mike for screwing up the reunion, which I think had it gone on for multiple albums, would have had different BB members shouldering the vocal lead load on these songs, in whatever form they would have taken, instead of guest stars getting those leads).

I will say that, respectfully speaking, I think the mods' decision to have pushback at the comical review of NPP could have rubbed many board members the wrong way. Speaking for myself, I was laughing at the thread, and wasn't offended by it. Yet of course they were in a tough spot, because I'm sure that they don't want people who worked on the record to ditch the board and be made fun of. That said, I totally understand the inclination to defend Brian (and defending what I believe to be genuine, heartfelt intentions on the record) against a thread that seemed mean-spirited, but I took that thread to being more like a Dean Martin comedy roast, where everyone (IMO as I recall, mostly fairly) got their balls busted.  

I'm supposedly the primary person - well one of them, anyway - who didn't like the Anti-NPP thread (some others pointed out - not me - for personal reasons, but I also didn't think it was particularly funny).  If you don't like the record, I genuinely am fine with that.  I keep asking people, why would I care? Do you care if I like a particular record in your collection?  I would hope not.  I certainly don't care if you don't like some of my favorite music.  Why would I? 

What I had a problem with were the accusations against the record that weren't accurate. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I am pro-Brian, not anti-Mike.  But - okay I openly laughed at the production on SIP - and I've complained about the abrasive published comments from Mike.  This seems to earn this title of anti-Mike from some people - while relentless attacks on Brian's work and family are just fine.  It's quite odd to me.

I will say that I think the production style on SIP is laughable (despite a few decent songs buried there). I will also say that I think that while I don't doubt that Brian did work hard and put lots of genuine effort into NPP (probably way more time/effort than Mike put into SIP, which Bruce apparently described as a rush job to meet a release deadline), I nevertheless have a number of issues with NPP.

I'm a HUGE Brian fan, but I'll be totally honest here (I hope nobody faults me for that!) and admit to having the record grow off me in hindsight, despite the fact that I really like some parts of it, and am genuinely moved by One Kind of Love. This is probably because of my major preference to have less guest stars, and my not being much of a fan of Joe Thomas' production style. (Ironically, again I will put some blame on Mike for screwing up the reunion, which I think had it gone on for multiple albums, would have had different BB members shouldering the vocal lead load on these songs, in whatever form they would have taken, instead of guest stars getting those leads).

I will say that, respectfully speaking, I think the mods' decision to have pushback at the comical review of NPP could have rubbed many board members the wrong way. Speaking for myself, I was laughing at the thread, and wasn't offended by it. Yet of course they were in a tough spot, because I'm sure that they don't want people who worked on the record to ditch the board and be made fun of. That said, I totally understand the inclination to defend Brian (and defending what I believe to be genuine, heartfelt intentions on the record) against a thread that seemed mean-spirited, but I took that thread to being more like a Dean Martin comedy roast, where everyone (IMO as I recall, mostly fairly) got their balls busted. 

*That* is a balanced and well-thought post

[CenturyDeprived]

I am pro-Brian, not anti-Mike.  But - okay I openly laughed at the production on SIP - and I've complained about the abrasive published comments from Mike.  This seems to earn this title of anti-Mike from some people - while relentless attacks on Brian's work and family are just fine.  It's quite odd to me.

I will say that I think the production style on SIP is laughable (despite a few decent songs buried there). I will also say that I think that while I don't doubt that Brian did work hard and put lots of genuine effort into NPP (probably way more time/effort than Mike put into SIP, which Bruce apparently described as a rush job to meet a release deadline), I nevertheless have a number of issues with NPP.

I'm a HUGE Brian fan, but I'll be totally honest here (I hope nobody faults me for that!) and admit to having the record grow off me in hindsight, despite the fact that I really like some parts of it, and am genuinely moved by One Kind of Love. This is probably because of my major preference to have less guest stars, and my not being much of a fan of Joe Thomas' production style. (Ironically, again I will put some blame on Mike for screwing up the reunion, which I think had it gone on for multiple albums, would have had different BB members shouldering the vocal lead load on these songs, in whatever form they would have taken, instead of guest stars getting those leads).

I will say that, respectfully speaking, I think the mods' decision to have pushback at the comical review of NPP could have rubbed many board members the wrong way. Speaking for myself, I was laughing at the thread, and wasn't offended by it. Yet of course they were in a tough spot, because I'm sure that they don't want people who worked on the record to ditch the board and be made fun of. That said, I totally understand the inclination to defend Brian (and defending what I believe to be genuine, heartfelt intentions on the record) against a thread that seemed mean-spirited, but I took that thread to being more like a Dean Martin comedy roast, where everyone (IMO as I recall, mostly fairly) got their balls busted.  

I'm supposedly the primary person - well one of them, anyway - who didn't like the Anti-NPP thread (some others pointed out - not me - for personal reasons, but I also didn't think it was particularly funny).  If you don't like the record, I genuinely am fine with that.  I keep asking people, why would I care? Do you care if I like a particular record in your collection?  I would hope not.  I certainly don't care if you don't like some of my favorite music.  Why would I?  

What I had a problem with were the accusations against the record that weren't accurate.  

Just for the record (no pun intended), I wouldn't say I don't like the record; I'm just not that crazy about parts of it. And that's ok, as I'm sure Brian and all the Boys would say that about some of their past work too   I put some of the fault on my preference of which  guest stars were chosen, some of whose voices grate on me. However, I really love Zoey's vocal, and her song, for one. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yeah, that's cool of course! I happen to love NPP, although I would've reduced the running length (and saved the left over tracks for the followup) but that's a minor quibble.

[Debbie KL]

I am pro-Brian, not anti-Mike.  But - okay I openly laughed at the production on SIP - and I've complained about the abrasive published comments from Mike.  This seems to earn this title of anti-Mike from some people - while relentless attacks on Brian's work and family are just fine.  It's quite odd to me.

I will say that I think the production style on SIP is laughable (despite a few decent songs buried there). I will also say that I think that while I don't doubt that Brian did work hard and put lots of genuine effort into NPP (probably way more time/effort than Mike put into SIP, which Bruce apparently described as a rush job to meet a release deadline), I nevertheless have a number of issues with NPP.

I'm a HUGE Brian fan, but I'll be totally honest here (I hope nobody faults me for that!) and admit to having the record grow off me in hindsight, despite the fact that I really like some parts of it, and am genuinely moved by One Kind of Love. This is probably because of my major preference to have less guest stars, and my not being much of a fan of Joe Thomas' production style. (Ironically, again I will put some blame on Mike for screwing up the reunion, which I think had it gone on for multiple albums, would have had different BB members shouldering the vocal lead load on these songs, in whatever form they would have taken, instead of guest stars getting those leads).

I will say that, respectfully speaking, I think the mods' decision to have pushback at the comical review of NPP could have rubbed many board members the wrong way. Speaking for myself, I was laughing at the thread, and wasn't offended by it. Yet of course they were in a tough spot, because I'm sure that they don't want people who worked on the record to ditch the board and be made fun of. That said, I totally understand the inclination to defend Brian (and defending what I believe to be genuine, heartfelt intentions on the record) against a thread that seemed mean-spirited, but I took that thread to being more like a Dean Martin comedy roast, where everyone (IMO as I recall, mostly fairly) got their balls busted.  

I'm supposedly the primary person - well one of them, anyway - who didn't like the Anti-NPP thread (some others pointed out - not me - for personal reasons, but I also didn't think it was particularly funny).  If you don't like the record, I genuinely am fine with that.  I keep asking people, why would I care? Do you care if I like a particular record in your collection?  I would hope not.  I certainly don't care if you don't like some of my favorite music.  Why would I?  

What I had a problem with were the accusations against the record that weren't accurate.  

Just for the record (no pun intended), I wouldn't say I don't like the record; I'm just not that crazy about parts of it. And that's ok, as I'm sure Brian and all the Boys would say that about some of their past work too

Of course! We all have our preferences.  I don't begrudge yours.  It never crossed my mind to be upset about them.  

Obviously I'm protective of Brian and his work.  No denials here. He's done some things I don't listen to, as well.  I'm a bit picky myself.

It was just the Mike claims about "autotune" (vocal processing) when he seemed to be the primary recipient on the C50 work, were what I found hypocritical. I've heard the recent YouTube "live" videos of his shows.  Give me a break!  Thank heavens Steve Desper confirmed my opinion, so that I didn't have to wonder if it was delusional on my part, or the work of the person posting the video.   It was a recording of the show.

Here's the thing.  If you're going to accuse Brian of being too rough in his performance, how can you also accuse him of using autotune when he performs? People need to pick.

Once again, it's the hypocrisy and lies that get to me.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It was just the Mike claims about "autotune" (vocal processing) when he seemed to be the primary recipient on the C50 work, were what I found hypocritical. I've heard the recent YouTube "live" videos of his shows.  Give me a break!  Thank heavens Steve Desper confirmed my opinion, so that I didn't have to wonder if it was delusional on my part, or the work of the person posting the video.   It was a recording of the show.

I know exactly what you mean...and I know Brian had a few dates where tuning was audible on the c50 tour as well. For what it's worth, though, it seems like that ended in mid to late May 2012. May have been a default plug-in on the mixing board*, because I didn't hear tuning at all on *anybody* after that period.

*- I've heard of some promoters and/or venues that actually *insist*  on it being on by default...and it could've been present on others besides Brian and Mike.

[Bill Ed]

I don't find Mike Love interesting. I can't understand why some people devote so much thought to him, pro or con.

[Rick5150]

You do realize that this is because he deflects ALL blame and ALL responsibility for these things, right? And that really, really bugs a lot of people. That is not just a Mike thing, I personally know people who do that type of thing, and it very, very much is a personality trait that I find super uncool. It's a reaction to that highly regrettable trait. Which in and of itself is probably a defense mechanism. If another band that I was a huge fan of had someone who acted in a similar fashion, I would be equally critical of that person.And I hope you would think (as I do) that if he actually said that he f*cked up, that he acted in a regrettable way, that ego got in the way etc, that MANY people would actually, really forgive him for these things?

What I realize that is how we feel. Because we think he messed up and acted in a regrettable way does not mean he feels that he messed up and acted in a regrettable way. If you listen to the Howard Stern interview Mike said something like Paul Shaffer cut him off by playing music before he was finished. This is paraphrased, of course as I do not recall the exact wording. But this means he had more to say. LOL. Whether it would have made things better or worse may never be known, but it does not sound like the words of a guy who felt he acted in a regrettable way.

We all know people who have a hard time saying they are wrong or that they are sorry. They do what they do and move on without giving it a second thought as to how others feel. Is there a lack of empathy with Mike? Of course. Is there a lack of class. I think so. Maybe Mike has a bit of a mental illness himself where he is incapable of what we consider norms? There is something called Empathy Deficit Disorder. It is a made-up name for a real condition. This quote is taken out of context, so keep that in mind:

"Most people are socially conditioned into believing that acquiring and achieving things are "normal" - even "healthy" - ways to live. Empathy Deficit Disorder grows when people focus too much on acquiring power, status, and money for themselves."

I understand how you feel about Mike's actions, I really do. I am old enough to have lived most of them first-hand and cringed along with the rest of the world when they happened. How do you deal with people in your life that have this type of trait? Do you hang with them less? Avoid them altogether? I am willing to bet you do not go on the internet and anonymously rip them a new one every time they do something you do not like. We can do this because Mike is a public figure and it is easy when we are supported by a mob mentality.

The funny thing is that I am not a Lovester, but the Mike-bashing about every single thing gets old and it ruins nearly every thread in which his name is mentioned. I love the Beach Boys and nearly everything they have put out musically, and I want more. I love to read new facts and ideas about them - all of them - but more and more discussions take the same path lately is all I am saying. It takes the fun out of reading the material here, and this is the best Beach Boys resource on the net as far as I am concerned. People who try to push the anti-Mike agenda so hard are the ones who made me feel bad for him and lean toward a somewhat opposite stance. He did some shitty things. He still does. I get it.

We all draw our lines about what is acceptable or unacceptable and some lines are more lenient than others. But there are so many lines drawn here, it is like a big block of blackness.

[Debbie KL]

It was just the Mike claims about "autotune" (vocal processing) when he seemed to be the primary recipient on the C50 work, were what I found hypocritical. I've heard the recent YouTube "live" videos of his shows.  Give me a break!  Thank heavens Steve Desper confirmed my opinion, so that I didn't have to wonder if it was delusional on my part, or the work of the person posting the video.   It was a recording of the show.

I know exactly what you mean...and I know Brian had a few dates where tuning was audible on the c50 tour as well. For what it's worth, though, it seems like that ended in mid to late May 2012. May have been a default plug-in on the mixing board*, because I didn't hear tuning at all on *anybody* after that period.

*- I've heard of some promoters and/or venues that actually *insist*  on it being on by default...and it could've been present on others besides Brian and Mike.

I wasn't aware of those C50 shows.  Thanks for the info.  It helps.  All the times I've heard Brian perform he wasn't "tuned," so this is new info for me.  It seems, when he's performing as Brian Wilson and band, this isn't the case.  Obviously, I haven't attended every show, but I've not heard of it.  Those YouTube videos of Mike's band, frankly shocked me.  I can't imagine why anyone would process Foskett's or Ike's vocals.  They were spot on when I heard them with Brian (or the Four Freshmen) in the past nearly all the time.  Maybe they had an off night?

[Debbie KL]

You do realize that this is because he deflects ALL blame and ALL responsibility for these things, right? And that really, really bugs a lot of people. That is not just a Mike thing, I personally know people who do that type of thing, and it very, very much is a personality trait that I find super uncool. It's a reaction to that highly regrettable trait. Which in and of itself is probably a defense mechanism. If another band that I was a huge fan of had someone who acted in a similar fashion, I would be equally critical of that person.And I hope you would think (as I do) that if he actually said that he f*cked up, that he acted in a regrettable way, that ego got in the way etc, that MANY people would actually, really forgive him for these things?

What I realize that is how we feel. Because we think he messed up and acted in a regrettable way does not mean he feels that he messed up and acted in a regrettable way. If you listen to the Howard Stern interview Mike said something like Paul Shaffer cut him off by playing music before he was finished. This is paraphrased, of course as I do not recall the exact wording. But this means he had more to say. LOL. Whether it would have made things better or worse may never be known, but it does not sound like the words of a guy who felt he acted in a regrettable way.

We all know people who have a hard time saying they are wrong or that they are sorry. They do what they do and move on without giving it a second thought as to how others feel. Is there a lack of empathy with Mike? Of course. Is there a lack of class. I think so. Maybe Mike has a bit of a mental illness himself where he is incapable of what we consider norms? There is something called Empathy Deficit Disorder. It is a made-up name for a real condition. This quote is taken out of context, so keep that in mind:

"Most people are socially conditioned into believing that acquiring and achieving things are "normal" - even "healthy" - ways to live. Empathy Deficit Disorder grows when people focus too much on acquiring power, status, and money for themselves."

I understand how you feel about Mike's actions, I really do. I am old enough to have lived most of them first-hand and cringed along with the rest of the world when they happened. How do you deal with people in your life that have this type of trait? Do you hang with them less? Avoid them altogether? I am willing to bet you do not go on the internet and anonymously rip them a new one every time they do something you do not like. We can do this because Mike is a public figure and it is easy when we are supported by a mob mentality.

The funny thing is that I am not a Lovester, but the Mike-bashing about every single thing gets old and it ruins nearly every thread in which his name is mentioned. I love the Beach Boys and nearly everything they have put out musically, and I want more. I love to read new facts and ideas about them - all of them - but more and more discussions take the same path lately is all I am saying. It takes the fun out of reading the material here, and this is the best Beach Boys resource on the net as far as I am concerned. People who try to push the anti-Mike agenda so hard are the ones who made me feel bad for him and lean toward a somewhat opposite stance. He did some shitty things. He still does. I get it.

We all draw our lines about what is acceptable or unacceptable and some lines are more lenient than others. But there are so many lines drawn here, it is like a big block of blackness.

I wouldn't expect things to get better over the next month with the two bios coming out.  Sorry, but people react to those things.  I doubt many people will hold back when they read various assertions in those books.  I'm prepared for a lot of it.  I can probably never be prepared for some of the things that will be said here and elsewhere, so I'll be avoiding certain MB's (well I already avoid them anyway).

[Ang Jones]

Rick 5150 wrote: "I understand how you feel about Mike's actions, I really do. I am old enough to have lived most of them first-hand and cringed along with the rest of the world when they happened. How do you deal with people in your life that have this type of trait? Do you hang with them less? Avoid them altogether? I am willing to bet you do not go on the internet and anonymously rip them a new one every time they do something you do not like. We can do this because Mike is a public figure and it is easy when we are supported by a mob mentality."

Agreed but Mike makes public statements about his various grudges on the internet, radio, TV and in the Press (admittedly not anonymously but with Mike's ego, one wouldn't expect that). So the fans respond in kind - and not all of them do so anonymously. I use my own name in every one of the posts I have made criticising Mike. But undoubtedly the 'mob mentality' does sometimes take over and it's there to be seen when Mike's apologists get to work too. Like the guy who said he wanted to kill everyone who posted here. Of course he didn't mean it, it was a joke, but he was playing to an audience and some of them are prepared to indulge him. By all means criticise those who are just mindlessly going along with what others say or write but I've read dozens of posts here and elsewhere that have made sensible and well argued criticisms of Mike. To defend Mike with empty threats shows the weakness of one's own position surely?

[HeyJude]

It is funny that we spew venom at Mike for not letting go of the past (song credits, for example) and how he is continually bringing up the same things about the Wilson’s and drug use, his meditation, etc.

Yet when you ask someone why they do not like Mike Love, they will not let go of the past (Rock & Roll Hall of Fame speech) and will continually bring up the same things about Mike “firing” Brian from the C50 tour, the multiple lawsuits, etc.

I have to say, nobody but an initially lazy press and Mike himself have referenced Mike "firing" Brian. The former was of course, well, lazy. Mike has on occasion used the accusations of having fired Brian as an example of being vilified, and of an incorrect accusation being made. The thing is, fans on a board like this knew from the outset that the "firing" reports were incorrect. If for some reason anyone didn't, Brian's response letter to the LA Times specifically said he had not been fired. "Feels like fired" maybe, but nobody was fired. So I don't think it's fair, if we're talking about *this* board, to characterize anyone as saying that Mike fired Brian. We all know it's not true.

We like Brian. Brian likes Mike. Logically, we should like Mike. I cannot say I was a Brianista, but after listening to everyone put every single thing Mike does under a microscope and examine every word and action - then put a negative spin on things that were  innocuous as if Mike has always had this tremendous agenda – it gets old and I have had enough.

I'm not sure how much Brian likes Mike. Brian clearly respects Mike's work with the Beach Boys, has fondness for his history with Mike, and rarely if ever says a negative word about Mike. But I'm not sure how much he actually *likes* Mike, nor am I sure why how Brian feels about Mike should impact how *I* feel about, say, an interview Mike gives. Brian doesn't go negative on Mike. But Brian has also admitted he hasn't talked to Mike in four years, since the end of the reunion. I'm not sure how much that indicates a deep current fondness for Mike.

As for "negative spin", I think the keyword is "innocuous", and at least as far as *I'm* concerned, I don't criticize innocuous words or deeds of Mike. Now, what constitutes innocuous is quite subjective. I've had those small number of ardent Mike defenders characterize certain things as innocuous where I find those same things anything but.

I *will* say that Mike has been so negative and inflammatory in so many interviews and other arenas that it *is* easy to quickly jump on him for essentially repeating those same negative comments or actions (e.g. another "the Wilsons did drugs and I didn't" interview). I don't think most of the criticism of Mike on *this* board is "spin" or filled with an "agenda." Usually, at worst it's repetitive and circular. But it's all driven by his actions. To put it bluntly, if he'd stop saying cringe-worthy things in interviews, if he'd stop insulting most of the other members of the band and reflecting poorly on himself and the band and the brand, the critics wouldn't have any current things to criticize. But the stuff driving present-day criticism of Mike, especially on this board, is mainly his current statements and actions. I don't see a bunch of people still beating the "Mike didn't like Smile" issue to death, and other ancient issues. Ironically, the person beating *HALF-CENTURY OLD ISSUES* to death is Mike.

It’s like watching a bunch of bullies beat up some guy you did not like, but it gets carried too far and you start to feel bad for the guy and sympathize with him. It is easy to beat up on Mike and is the “in” thing to do. I don’t think he deserves half the amount of sh*t he gets.

Everyone is of course entitled to their own viewpoint on this. While the occasional troll takes it too far (and that mainly occurs in other areas of the internet like YouTube and Facebook comments rather than here), I don't think Mike is being unfairly taken to task. He is the one giving interview after interview. He's the one who *chose* to write a book. He's the one who *still* won't admit to a personal failing or mistake that doesn't invoke the name of someone else.

I also think implying that people "beat up" on Mike because it's the "in" thing to do is unfair. Again, especially concerning this board, it's Mike's continual stream of objectionable comments and actions that drive this stuff. Again, the Rolling Stone article earlier this year acknowledged Mike's reputation that has been a running issue for decades and decades. The author even tried to delve into it and figure out if decades of negative impressions were unwarranted, and even in the best, most forgiving of circumstances still *proved* those very stereotypes were largely true.

I think the negativity can become overwhelming and can bog any online community down. But if we're going to try to stray from that negativity, it will have to be by ignoring what Mike does and says in some cases. What are we supposed to do? If Mike makes an a-hole comment in an interview and someone posts it here, I guess we can just ignore it. But then what happens? What happens when someone says "Great interview!" Or, what happens when things like that David Beard "interview" appear? What happens when both Mike and his "interviewer" seem to actually have an obvious, cutting, negative agenda? Sorry, some fans are going to call them on it.

[HeyJude]

You do realize that this is because he deflects ALL blame and ALL responsibility for these things, right? And that really, really bugs a lot of people. That is not just a Mike thing, I personally know people who do that type of thing, and it very, very much is a personality trait that I find super uncool. It's a reaction to that highly regrettable trait. Which in and of itself is probably a defense mechanism. If another band that I was a huge fan of had someone who acted in a similar fashion, I would be equally critical of that person.And I hope you would think (as I do) that if he actually said that he f*cked up, that he acted in a regrettable way, that ego got in the way etc, that MANY people would actually, really forgive him for these things?

What I realize that is how we feel. Because we think he messed up and acted in a regrettable way does not mean he feels that he messed up and acted in a regrettable way. If you listen to the Howard Stern interview Mike said something like Paul Shaffer cut him off by playing music before he was finished. This is paraphrased, of course as I do not recall the exact wording. But this means he had more to say. LOL. Whether it would have made things better or worse may never be known, but it does not sound like the words of a guy who felt he acted in a regrettable way.

We all know people who have a hard time saying they are wrong or that they are sorry. They do what they do and move on without giving it a second thought as to how others feel. Is there a lack of empathy with Mike? Of course. Is there a lack of class. I think so. Maybe Mike has a bit of a mental illness himself where he is incapable of what we consider norms? There is something called Empathy Deficit Disorder. It is a made-up name for a real condition. This quote is taken out of context, so keep that in mind:

"Most people are socially conditioned into believing that acquiring and achieving things are "normal" - even "healthy" - ways to live. Empathy Deficit Disorder grows when people focus too much on acquiring power, status, and money for themselves."

I understand how you feel about Mike's actions, I really do. I am old enough to have lived most of them first-hand and cringed along with the rest of the world when they happened. How do you deal with people in your life that have this type of trait? Do you hang with them less? Avoid them altogether? I am willing to bet you do not go on the internet and anonymously rip them a new one every time they do something you do not like. We can do this because Mike is a public figure and it is easy when we are supported by a mob mentality.

The funny thing is that I am not a Lovester, but the Mike-bashing about every single thing gets old and it ruins nearly every thread in which his name is mentioned. I love the Beach Boys and nearly everything they have put out musically, and I want more. I love to read new facts and ideas about them - all of them - but more and more discussions take the same path lately is all I am saying. It takes the fun out of reading the material here, and this is the best Beach Boys resource on the net as far as I am concerned. People who try to push the anti-Mike agenda so hard are the ones who made me feel bad for him and lean toward a somewhat opposite stance. He did some shitty things. He still does. I get it.

We all draw our lines about what is acceptable or unacceptable and some lines are more lenient than others. But there are so many lines drawn here, it is like a big block of blackness.

I think there's something to be said for taking the high road and being compassionate even in situations where the compassion and empathy have no reward. If Mike has some sort of actual condition causing his lack of empathy and some of his other inflammatory traits, I think a tact can be taken that is compassionate and more zen or whatever we want to call it.

But I think picking apart statements and actions of Mike doesn't preclude one from still having compassion and empathy. I don't wish anything bad on Mike. I've never called for karma to "get him" or anything like that. I simply look at what he says and comment on it.

The idea of being compassionate about the mere possibility that Mike's ticks are due to some sort of actual clinical condition is rather ironic, because it has been Mike for decades now and especially recently who seems to display a jaw-dropping lack of empathy and understanding for Brian and Brian's *known*, *diagnosed*, and *publicly-discussed* conditions. Note that in the Rolling Stone piece earlier this year that Mike *still* incorrectly characterizes Brian as "paranoid schizophrenic." The author, a guy who I don't even know has ever met Brian, has to correct the guy who has known Brian for over 70 years and who played with Brian and wrote with Brian and interacted with at least some of Brian's doctors and family over the years.

It reminds me of that interview where William Shatner was still mispronouncing George Takei's name after like 30 or 40 years of having known and worked with the guy. It's almost starts to transcend embarrassing and turns to comical.

[thorgil]

I think the problem runs very deep, and sadly there is no mending it. Mike and Brian embody two opposite types of human being, and people will naturally gravitate around their respective planets. One would think that having composed 90% of the BB music would offset this on self-proclaimed BB fans. Sadly again, it does not. Tends to be "forgotten".

[Juice Brohnston]

Why it became so extreme, racist and sexist, I can't answer - I guess you'd need to go to the "peaceful" board and ask them, since most of them are there.  This bizarre political year in the US is equally inexplicable.  

It's an interesting comparable, and one I too have thought a lot about. Much like the current political climate, you have two groups, who are becoming increasingly unable to find common ground, and are at the point where they don't want to listen to the other side anymore. This is amplified by manipulation: Media, other posters, moderators etc.

[CenturyDeprived]

You do realize that this is because he deflects ALL blame and ALL responsibility for these things, right? And that really, really bugs a lot of people. That is not just a Mike thing, I personally know people who do that type of thing, and it very, very much is a personality trait that I find super uncool. It's a reaction to that highly regrettable trait. Which in and of itself is probably a defense mechanism. If another band that I was a huge fan of had someone who acted in a similar fashion, I would be equally critical of that person.And I hope you would think (as I do) that if he actually said that he f*cked up, that he acted in a regrettable way, that ego got in the way etc, that MANY people would actually, really forgive him for these things?

What I realize that is how we feel. Because we think he messed up and acted in a regrettable way does not mean he feels that he messed up and acted in a regrettable way. If you listen to the Howard Stern interview Mike said something like Paul Shaffer cut him off by playing music before he was finished. This is paraphrased, of course as I do not recall the exact wording. But this means he had more to say. LOL. Whether it would have made things better or worse may never be known, but it does not sound like the words of a guy who felt he acted in a regrettable way.

We all know people who have a hard time saying they are wrong or that they are sorry. They do what they do and move on without giving it a second thought as to how others feel. Is there a lack of empathy with Mike? Of course. Is there a lack of class. I think so. Maybe Mike has a bit of a mental illness himself where he is incapable of what we consider norms? There is something called Empathy Deficit Disorder. It is a made-up name for a real condition. This quote is taken out of context, so keep that in mind:

"Most people are socially conditioned into believing that acquiring and achieving things are "normal" - even "healthy" - ways to live. Empathy Deficit Disorder grows when people focus too much on acquiring power, status, and money for themselves."

I understand how you feel about Mike's actions, I really do. I am old enough to have lived most of them first-hand and cringed along with the rest of the world when they happened. How do you deal with people in your life that have this type of trait? Do you hang with them less? Avoid them altogether? I am willing to bet you do not go on the internet and anonymously rip them a new one every time they do something you do not like. We can do this because Mike is a public figure and it is easy when we are supported by a mob mentality.

The funny thing is that I am not a Lovester, but the Mike-bashing about every single thing gets old and it ruins nearly every thread in which his name is mentioned. I love the Beach Boys and nearly everything they have put out musically, and I want more. I love to read new facts and ideas about them - all of them - but more and more discussions take the same path lately is all I am saying. It takes the fun out of reading the material here, and this is the best Beach Boys resource on the net as far as I am concerned. People who try to push the anti-Mike agenda so hard are the ones who made me feel bad for him and lean toward a somewhat opposite stance. He did some shitty things. He still does. I get it.

We all draw our lines about what is acceptable or unacceptable and some lines are more lenient than others. But there are so many lines drawn here, it is like a big block of blackness.

I appreciate the response, Rick5150. I agree that Mike probably is afflicted with some issue like that, which I feel is tragic. Because it's probably related to trauma of some sort. I don't think anyone *chooses* to have traits like that. As to what I do when I encounter people with similar personality traits in my own life? I either make a conscious effort to associate with them as little as possible... of when that is impossible, and interaction happens, then if we have mutual friends/family members, I might vent to those members about the preposterousness of that person's actions. Venting about people doing actions that are baffling and contradictory can perhaps go too far when taken to the extreme. At least, speaking for myself, I try to bring a reasoned and nuanced discussion to whatever venting I might do.

And yeah... I get that Mike is doing venting of his own. I *get* that. It's just that it seems so tragically misguided that we often cannot help but to shake our heads in disbelief. Fans venting on a message board are not trying to win "fan of the year" awards, while Mike is literally trying to get awards or accolades amongst his peers despite not having a filter to not repeatedly say all the wrong things.

I, for one, actually desire to see Mike get more respect in the industry, and for things to go better for his reputation. Not sure that sitting back and saying nothing when he shoots himself in the foot is helping to achieve that goal, any more than venting about why I think he's saying something misguided that will inadvertently hurt his reputation will help either. Actually, we are probably helpless to do anything. Only the guy himself can choose his own destiny.

I try to have as much empathy as I possibly can, but it wears thin. I agree the negative discussion about Mike can get absurd at times, and I'll call myself out as being guilty of that sometimes, although I suppose the alternative is just a bunch of reasoned fans, a great many of which are truly willing to give Mike the benefit of the doubt, who are continually frustrated (and re-frustrated, not a word, I know) with each new interview, just sitting back and keeping their thoughts to themselves. I truly don't want threads ruined. But if the answer is for us to keep our thoughts to themselves, I hope the flipside of that is that people such as yourself will get equally frustrated at all of the fans who go out of their way to praise each new interview, regardless of how inflammatory the interviews may be. I don't see how they are helping matters either.

I just don't like the idea of anyone muzzling themselves. And frankly, that includes the IMO crazy Mike Love defenders. If they actually in their hearts feel like saying a bunch of stuff they believe, let them say it. There will be a group of logical people on the flipside to refute their (usually) flawed logic.