Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[drbeachboy]

Micha,

Plus, besides the two hits, there is nothing "Commercial" about Smiley Smile at all. Brian's justification at that time does not hold water.

[guitarfool2002]

Could you clarify that? What was incorrect? Both Engemann and Desper say Brian took the song to KHJ so he could hear what it sounded like on the radio...which interview or what part of an interview are you saying is incorrect?

The date July 5 to KHJ apparently.

After some sleep, I realize Engemann says it is a tape, so the original delivery of on or before July 3 was an acetate which isn't in conflict with Brian also delivering  tape on July 5. Seems sensible actually.

What previous date was given? I only said July 3 referencing a KHJ aircheck that exists but has nothing to do with Heroes or Brian's tape, not the date when they went to KHJ's studios.

My bad, I thought you were saying Steele played H&V on the 3rd, I didn't read it closely enough.  The 5th it is then.  An acetate for KHJ and a tape for Engemann.

Cam - according to Carlin, p. 121, "...in the summer of 1967, Brian felt strongly enough about the new version that he kept it to himself for weeks, waiting for his astrologer, named Genevelyn, to identify the perfect moment to spring it upon the unsuspecting world. She came to Brian in the evening of July 11

...As Terry Melcher told the tale to Rolling Stone in 1971, it all began around the evening on the eleventh, when Brian gathered his remaining intimates (unnamed) into a flock of limousines and sped from the gates of his Bel Air home...to... KHJ-AM...presented it to Tom Maule, the overnight DJ..."Hi, I'm Brian Wilson, Melcher recalled hearing the pop monarch declare. 'Here is the new Beach Boys single, and I'd like to give you and KHJ an exclusive on it.'

'...I can't play anything that's not on the playlist,'...Maule was convinced to call the program director at home --'Put it on, you idiot!' Melcher recalled hearing the guy shreik..."

I'd recommend reading Stephen Desper's account of that trip to KHJ at the link I posted here earlier, he gives more details and also clarifies some of what had been written and previously assumed about that night. And it's fascinating info as well!

[Micha]

What you wrote here:
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but every human being is fallible and there is nobody whose every word can be taken as gospel. Everybody's statements have to be checked for plausibility. That doesn't equal discrediting them completely.


That is EXACTLY what I have been saying too. Why you direct it at me who has been agreeing with exactly that principle instead of addressing those who are using one questionable line or one word to throw away everything a person said or wrote is something maybe you could answer for me

All right, here we go. This is my perception of things. I went back to read John Manning's post with the word "discredit", and he says:

Surely that "Smile is finished" statement effectively discredits some of what Carl had to say that day?

SOME of what Carl had to say THAT DAY. You then went into a kind of rant that seemed to me like a hissy fit about people trying to discredit Carl totally as a person rather a very limited couple of statements of his. You even accused Cam of claiming Carl was a liar, which, if I didn't skip the post in which he did because of lack of concentration, Cam didn't. It seemed to me your point was "How can you all doubt Carl?", as earlier it seemed to me your point was that it was proven Mike told Taylor about SMiLE being scrapped and that you were annoyed some of us didn't agree that it was proven. You even refused to give us the source for some time and for reasons beyond me. Also it seemed to me that you got into a huff about Cam's theories as if everybody was buying them.

In short, your points may actually elude me because of all these emotional reactions of yours that sidetrack your argumentation.

This is exactly what I said:

But if you choose to call Carl a liar and discredit everything he says, Cam

"if you choose". Make sure you read my words correctly before accusing me of something.

I'll engage a conversation but not with someone whose goal might be more personal than something related to discussing the information. As I've already said, if your goal in posting this is to distract those who want to talk about the topics being discussed or make it about me and whatever issues you have against me or the board's moderation or anything else related, it will not happen here.

If you're here to discuss the issues, I engaged you in that and you chose instead to again bring up personal gripes, complaints, and everything else to make it personal. Your actions are unwelcome and if you're concerned about respect being shown by board members, start showing it in your own actions.

Line drawn.

Now we can get back to talking about the Smile issues people want to read and discuss.

I see our perceptions of each other's words differ strongly.

[guitarfool2002]

What you wrote here:
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but every human being is fallible and there is nobody whose every word can be taken as gospel. Everybody's statements have to be checked for plausibility. That doesn't equal discrediting them completely.


That is EXACTLY what I have been saying too. Why you direct it at me who has been agreeing with exactly that principle instead of addressing those who are using one questionable line or one word to throw away everything a person said or wrote is something maybe you could answer for me

All right, here we go. This is my perception of things. I went back to read John Manning's post with the word "discredit", and he says:

Surely that "Smile is finished" statement effectively discredits some of what Carl had to say that day?

SOME of what Carl had to say THAT DAY. You then went into a kind of rant that seemed to me like a hissy fit about people trying to discredit Carl totally as a person rather a very limited couple of statements of his. You even accused Cam of claiming Carl was a liar, which, if I didn't skip the post in which he did because of lack of concentration, Cam didn't. It seemed to me your point was "How can you all doubt Carl?", as earlier it seemed to me your point was that it was proven Mike told Taylor about SMiLE being scrapped and that you were annoyed some of us didn't agree that it was proven. You even refused to give us the source for some time and for reasons beyond me. Also it seemed to me that you got into a huff about Cam's theories as if everybody was buying them.

In short, your points may actually elude me because of all these emotional reactions of yours that sidetrack your argumentation.

This is exactly what I said:

But if you choose to call Carl a liar and discredit everything he says, Cam

"if you choose". Make sure you read my words correctly before accusing me of something.

I'll engage a conversation but not with someone whose goal might be more personal than something related to discussing the information. As I've already said, if your goal in posting this is to distract those who want to talk about the topics being discussed or make it about me and whatever issues you have against me or the board's moderation or anything else related, it will not happen here.

If you're here to discuss the issues, I engaged you in that and you chose instead to again bring up personal gripes, complaints, and everything else to make it personal. Your actions are unwelcome and if you're concerned about respect being shown by board members, start showing it in your own actions.

Line drawn.

Now we can get back to talking about the Smile issues people want to read and discuss.

I see our perceptions of each other's words differ strongly.

What part of "line drawn" was unclear? If you want to talk about the topics being discussed, then do it. If you want to continue engaging in personal issues, whatever they may be, take it elsewhere. It ends here.

[filledeplage]

Micha,

Plus, besides the two hits, there is nothing "Commercial" about Smiley Smile at all. Brian's justification at that time does not hold water.

drbeachboy - I never thought of Smiley being "commercial" in that context.  But there might not have been stuff that could be "mined as singles" - except if Surf's Up had been on it. In its own disjointed manner, there is some real beauty there.  But, no one seemed to inquire beyond Surf's Up being MIA.   

[Cam Mott]

Cam's theories as if everybody was buying them.

Et tu, Micha?  And I thought we were internet friends....

Why do you guys (you know who you are) keep pickin' on me by name?  (doe eyes)

I don't call you guys out by name over your half-assed theories and conspiracies that nobody else is buying. (granite jaw set)

[Paul J B]

...Brian was sort of on the spot to just get a record done. Less crazy all night sessions and less modular recording. Straightforward hours and less outside musicians and a tight budget.  But as many have pointed out some even stranger arrangements and odd songs.

Ian, I think you're making some great points here and bringing, in the form of the quotes you've found by scouring contemporary publications, some fascinating material to this saga! But I did want to highlight this point. Although the Smiley recordings are simpler than the stuff recorded at the SMiLE sessions, and unquestionably involve fewer outside musicians (and therefore much less expense)... well, they're still pretty out there. Many of the tracks ARE recorded in modular fashion, as the SOT disc shows us. And the arrangements, particularly the vocals, are actually still very intricate, even if the slightly sloppy way a couple of them are delivered helps to create a superficially different impression (the intro to Little Pad, I'm looking at you).

This is one of the things that has always baffled me about Smiley Smile. It's been discussed here before, of course, and can be summed up as follows: if it was supposed to be a solution to the difficulties that Brian had got himself into while trying to finish SMiLE... then it's a pretty strange solution! Consider:

Some of the Beach Boys (we know who...) have expressed concerns about the VDP lyrics being hard to relate to. Maybe Brian thinks they are, too. So, what do they do for Smiley Smile? They, er... STILL USE several tracks featuring VDP's lyrics. And the others aren't exactly straightforward, 'Boy-Girl relatable' stuff. Even Getting Hungry, which is written by Brian and Mike, the classic team behind some of their archetypal boy-girl numbers, and does seem to be a boy addressing a girl, is pretty off-the-wall... the 'boy' sounds incredibly oversexed and creepy, and not in a good way. It's hardly 'Your Summer Dream'.

Brian said, both at the time and many times later, that he junked SMiLE because of concerns about it 'not being right for the Beach Boys' or 'not being commercial enough'. And we know, despite the success of Good Vibrations in between, that since Pet Sounds there had been concerns about the commercial appeal of the Boys' recent material: certainly at the record company and also, um, within the band (naming no names). So the obvious solution to this... IS TO PUT OUT SMILEY SMILE? An album featuring the Boys so obviously stoned that they crack up laughing, with songs about Vegetables and a girl pouring hair restorer on her head in a desperate attempt to bring back her shining tresses of yore...?? These aren't the apple-pie, gold-disc-winning Beach Boys of Surfer Girl any more — listen instead to the 'crazed acid party chat' rammed into the middle of the languid ballad Wonderful... the deep 'laughing' vocals and wonky Woody Woodpecker accordion motifs of the oddball 'Fall Breaks And Back To Winter', and the chipmunk squeaks of the 'Eltronned' Boys on 'She's Going Bald'...

OK, so the big hit Good Vibrations is on there too... but at that stage, that record was nearly three-quarters of a year old, and doesn't sound like anything else on the album. In short, what the ACTUAL Foda??

We also know that there were, as there had been over Pet Sounds, 'concerns' from the touring group that the new material would be far too hard to play on stage. So what does the group do? It puts out an album which... they hardly ever played any tracks from live. From memory, what? Heroes and Villains for a few weeks only (and then it was in the deep freeze until the early 70s concerts) and Getting Hungry for even less time... that was pretty much it for the 60s, wasn't it? Oh, and of course Brian put Baldwin organ all over it... that most eminently portable and lightweight of instruments for live use. And yeah, I know they DID use the Baldwin live in Hawaii... but it wasn't something they did very often after that. If, indeed, ever!

We also know that Brian is getting more and more unhappy as the SMiLE sessions progress. He doesn't feel as though things are coming easily to him any more... he gets totally stressed out over the recording of Heroes and Villains and how to put it together. He records more and more things in shorter and shorter sections, cutting far fewer tracks live as one piece. And his solution, moving to the 'clean sheet' of the Smiley Smile sessions, is... er...

...to continue recording everything in short sections, and to bring the recording environment which has caused him so much stress in recent time INTO HIS ACTUAL LIVING SPACE!

I could go on. In short, it just seems as though they looked at all the things that weren't working about SMiLE, said (sensibly enough) 'this is causing no end of stress, we need a break from this and a fresh start...' And then they pitched headlong into an album that almost seems calculated NOT to resolve any of the problems SMiLE was causing, and if anything, would actually exacerbate them...

Not that any of this diminishes my absolute love of Smiley Smile (I'm a believer through and through)... but it seems a pretty odd response to all the problems thrown up by late 1966 and early 1967 in Beach Boys land...!

Matt- some great points here that I agree with in a big way. I would further your statements and add that Smiley also would be a preposterous choice in place of Smile if it was all about Mike's opposition...a false long held myth IMO. Yes Mike had objections and may have been a pain about. That was only one issue though.

That fact of the studio being installed at Brian's house also never made sense to me. Being able to not get away from your work that is obviously taking a toll on you makes no sense. At least at Western or something he could call it a day and get away from it. If he was hearing voices and had been suffering from a schizo effective disorder, was that part of the reason for the home studio? Was it obvious Brian was losing it and a cozy home studio seemed like a solution to the problem? I don't see how that could have ONLY resulted in making matters worse. In fact, I think history proves it.

That stuff about Carl and the LA Times article a few pages back had a few eye popping quotes. Carl more than implied Brian was under extreme pressure. I can't pull up the quote typing on my phone here, sorry. The one about it "being really hard on Brian" or something. Brian ceased being the main man, producer, writer, arranger, vocalist, and all the rest. It all started during this time period.

[Summertime Blooz]

Some of the Beach Boys (we know who...) have expressed concerns about the VDP lyrics being hard to relate to. Maybe Brian thinks they are, too. So, what do they do for Smiley Smile? They, er... STILL USE several tracks featuring VDP's lyrics.

It seems significant to me that we have SMiLE era lead vocals only for those songs that were reworked for Smiley: H&V, Vegetables, Wind Chimes, Wonderful. Obviously there was no problem with those lyrics. The unused tracks - CE, SU, DYLW - all have no 1966 lead vocals, maybe because those were the questioned lyrics.

It would seem like those three, however obscure the lyrics may be, are the ones that seem to paint American history in an unflattering light. Uncovering the worms, as it were. Might that be what BW called "inappropriate"? Could be with VDP gone he lost his nerve?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Just for yucks, a timeline:

4/29 - Someone* states that Smile is finished and ready to be rush released once the Capitol lawsuit is settled.

  5/2 - European tour starts (ends 19th)

  5/6 - Derek Taylor states that Smile is "scrapped"

  6/3 - Smiley Smile sessions commence

  7/5 - Brian previews "H&V" at KHJ

7/20 - Smiley Smile assembled & mastered

7/24 - "H&V" single released (Brother)

7/25 - Engemann "10-track Smile" memo

7/31 - Best of... Volume 2 released

8/26 - and 27: Hawaiian shows for live album

8/28 - "Gettin' Hungry" single released (Brother)

9/11 - Wally Heider session for fake live album

9/15 - Smiley Smile released (Brother)

9/26 - "Wild Honey" session (and 27th)

10/18 - "Wild Honey" single released (Capitol)

10/25 - Wild Honey sessions commence

[* seeing as it was Carl who later claimed the album was finished, this earlier statement must make him at least a suspect...]

So... between July 25th and some time before August 26th, the Smile redux album went out the door. Why ? If Carl is to be believed, the tracks were waiting and ready to go, as was the booklets and cover art. Someone had to have said "no". Who ? And why ?

[Cam Mott]

Some of the Beach Boys (we know who...) have expressed concerns about the VDP lyrics being hard to relate to. Maybe Brian thinks they are, too. So, what do they do for Smiley Smile? They, er... STILL USE several tracks featuring VDP's lyrics.

It seems significant to me that we have SMiLE era lead vocals only for those songs that were reworked for Smiley: H&V, Vegetables, Wind Chimes, Wonderful. Obviously there was no problem with those lyrics. The unused tracks - CE, SU, DYLW - all have no 1966 lead vocals, maybe because those were the questioned lyrics.

It would seem like those three, however obscure the lyrics may be, are the ones that seem to paint American history in an unflattering light. Uncovering the worms, as it were. Might that be what BW called "inappropriate"? Could be with VDP gone he lost his nerve?

I agree, I think it was probably something like that too; either too political or preachy or old timey or something like that for Brian (whatever he considered "too sophisticated" or artistically selfish).

I suppose we don't know enough about CIFOTM, OMP, or IIGS to even speculate, although I also suppose there are faint hints of being something similar maybe.

[DonnyL]

I think you can compare Brian to orson Welles.  He was accused of going over budget and getting too arty and having trouble finishing projects so when a studio offered to let him direct a movie called the stranger in 1946 it was on the proviso that he work on a tight budget and stick to the script. Basically they wanted him to demonstrate that he could work within the rules. Maybe smiley smile was a bit like that.  Brian was sort of on the spot to just get a record done. Less crazy all night sessions and less modular recording. Straightforward hours and less outside musicians and a tight budget.  But as many have pointed out some even stranger arrangements and odd songs.

Not to split hairs, but Smiley was definitely recorded and put together in a very modular way.

[Cam Mott]

Just for yucks, a timeline:

[* seeing as it was Carl who later claimed the album was finished, this earlier statement must make him at least a suspect...]

So... between July 25th and some time before August 26th, the Smile redux album went out the door. Why ? If Carl is to be believed, the tracks were waiting and ready to go, as was the booklets and cover art. Someone had to have said "no". Who ? And why ?

I'm going to guess that it was something boring and practical like they were never finished as Brian has said (and Taylor reported) or even more boring like Engemann eventually realized 5 of the 12 SMiLE titles had already been released in original or alternate form on Smiley instead of just 2 as he cites in the memo.

[mike moseley]

completely agree

Just for yucks, a timeline:

[* seeing as it was Carl who later claimed the album was finished, this earlier statement must make him at least a suspect...]

So... between July 25th and some time before August 26th, the Smile redux album went out the door. Why ? If Carl is to be believed, the tracks were waiting and ready to go, as was the booklets and cover art. Someone had to have said "no". Who ? And why ?

I'm going to guess that it was something boring and practical like they were never finished as Brian has said (and Taylor reported) or even more boring like Engemann eventually realized 5 of the 12 SMiLE titles had already been released in original or alternate form on Smiley instead of just 2 as he cites in the memo.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Just for yucks, a timeline:

4/29 - Someone* states that Smile is finished and ready to be rush released once the Capitol lawsuit is settled.

  5/2 - European tour starts (ends 19th)

  5/6 - Derek Taylor states that Smile is "scrapped"

  6/3 - Smiley Smile sessions commence

  7/5 - Brian previews "H&V" at KHJ

7/20 - Smiley Smile assembled & mastered

7/24 - "H&V" single released (Brother)

7/25 - Engemann "10-track Smile" memo

7/31 - Best of... Volume 2 released

8/26 - and 27: Hawaiian shows for live album

8/28 - "Gettin' Hungry" single released (Brother)

9/11 - Wally Heider session for fake live album

9/15 - Smiley Smile released (Brother)

9/26 - "Wild Honey" session (and 27th)

10/18 - "Wild Honey" single released (Capitol)

10/25 - Wild Honey sessions commence

[* seeing as it was Carl who later claimed the album was finished, this earlier statement must make him at least a suspect...]

So... between July 25th and some time before August 26th, the Smile redux album went out the door. Why ? If Carl is to be believed, the tracks were waiting and ready to go, as was the booklets and cover art. Someone had to have said "no". Who ? And why ?

This is my opinion, speculation if you will. No, I don't have...facts; just making conversation on a message board. I mentioned in an above post that, per Karl Engemann's memo, I believe that Brian intended to finish/release SMiLE as a follow-up album to Smiley Smile. I think there were enough quality tracks "left over" to compile a ten track SMiLE including:

01  Our Prayer
02  Heroes And Villains (a more fuller, longer, album version)
03  Do You Like Worms
04  I'm In Great Shape
05  I Wanna Be Around/Workshop
06  Barnyard
07  The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine
08  Cabinessence
09  Look
10  Holidays
11  Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (and/or other Elements)
12  I Love To Say Dada
13  Child Is Father Of The Man
14  Surf's Up
15  You're Welcome
16  He Gives Speeches
17  Tones/Tune X
18  I Don't Know

Looking at the songs that were used on Smiley Smile, "Good Vibrations" wasn't necessary for a follow-up SMiLE album, and the other tracks - "Heroes And Villains", "Wonderful", "Wind Chimes", and Vegetables" - could've been finished into the fuller, better (it's a matter of opinion) versions that we eventually heard on The Smile Sessions. It wasn't unheard of for Brian to re-record songs - significant songs - within months of each other, "Be True To Your School" and "Help Me Rhonda" being the prime examples. "Help Me, R(h)onda" did appear on back-to-back albums. Hell, we even got two versions of "Papa Oom Mow Mow".

Now to answer AGD's question. I give Brian the benefit of the doubt. I believe that Brian did discuss - in good faith - with Karl Engemann, a ten track SMiLE album to follow Smiley Smile. Maybe he was under the influence of drugs, maybe mental illness was affecting his judgment, maybe he was being an asshole, or maybe it was a combination of all three. But, maybe Brian was lucid, honest, and sincere. If he was, and I believe he was, for some period of time - a day, a week, a month - Brian was going to finish and release SMiLE after Smiley Smile, complete with the original album cover and booklets.

Why didn't that "plan" come to fruition? I think David Leaf said it best in one of the documentaries. Brian turned out the light, or turned off the switch, or whatever he (David) said. I believe that one day, during the time frame AGD laid out, Brian just came to the realization that, "I don't want to record like this (modular) anymore", or "I don't want to finish these songs", or "I'm tired of these songs", or "I want to go back to my old way of recording (two minute, non-modular recordings)", or "I just want to record "normal" music", or "I just want to record songs, not album projects", or "I just want to make a Beach Boys' record", or... whatever.

Not to appear hypocritical, but I think Brian, again for some period of time, SINCERELY INTENDED to finish and release SMiLE after Smiley Smile. However, the drugs, the mental illness, the conflicts around him, the burnout, the fill in your own reasons, probably got the best of him. I do think it was a COMBINATION of things, things that have been discussed ad nauseum. I think at that precise moment, when Brian finally dropped SMiLE and went into Wild Honey, he was never the same again, much like David Leaf was inferring.  

[Ian]

By the way-another interview of the time:  Mike Love talking in early February 1967 to Loraine Alterman of Detroit Free Press: she mentions that Brian told her in October 1966 when she interviewed him in Ann Arbor (which I have posted on the site today) that he said Smile would be ready by end of 66 and Mike says "We got into a thing where we're really doing a perfectionist thing on the album.  It will be a month or so before Smile is released."  As For the single Heroes, Mike says it will be released "when we finish it.  I don't know if it's going to be a hit but it sounds pretty good."

[Cam Mott]

I guess what we need to explore now is the obvious, which is: why would Carl and/or Dennis mislead Taylor to sabotage Brian and the other Boys and SMiLE when it is all finished and ready to be released in a couple of weeks at the end of the May tour?  Thoughts?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Who is the person or persons close to the action not saying the album is good to go in spring 1967 ?

[The Shift]

I guess what we need to explore now is the obvious, which is: why would Carl and/or Dennis mislead Taylor to sabotage Brian and the other Boys and SMiLE when it is all finished and ready to be released in a couple of weeks at the end of the May tour?  Thoughts?

Instillmdont think the "all finished" line sticks. Instrumentally, maybe, maybe arguably, but there was still some vocal work to be done and obviously mixing and mastering. I think the "all finished" line was in a similar context to "have you finished your homework/tidied your bedroom/eaten your greens?" "Yeah, finished that…) knowing there's gonna be a blitz on it overnight before it gets handed in/inspected/washed up the following morning. There's an element of PR in it and there's an element of simplifying the state of things for the sake of an outsider's uninitiated ears. If Smile had been finished, we'd've been presented with something quite different in 2004, before being presented with the real deal in 2011.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Unless there are two, three (minimum) session contracts missing, "The Elements" consisted of "Fire" and nothing else since 11/28/66. Knowing Brian's working methods for the preceding few years, that means at least two, three more tracking sessions. Add to that, say, six, seven vocal sessions, the sweetening, the mixing, the editing, the sequencing and the mastering... you're looking at another good two months work. In the 2000s, Brian said he needed another year to finish it. Carl et al may have thought Smile was finished and ready to go... they may have even been told that... but the available hard evidence contradicts that, and no amount of smoke & mirrors can make it read otherwise. If Smile was capable of being rush released by late April 1967, or again in late summer, then surely it would have been. As someone else noted, downthread, when Brian said something, he may have truly believed it at that moment in time. The next morning... that afternoon... an hour later... who knows ?

[Matt Bielewicz]

I totally agree. It's often said that SMiLE was complete to a fairly major extent - I've seen estimates of 75 percent, 60 percent, 80 percent, even 95 percent from various people over the years. But all these estimates are just guesswork, based on the state of the tapes as they've come down to us. If you think about it, though, it's actually completely impossible to say. You can only assign percentages like that in a creative process when the work is totally finished. With God Only Knows, for example, you could look at that on various dates in early 1966 and say... OK, on such and such a date the tracking was done, on such and such a date the instrumental backing for the pickup section at the end was complete (as you can tell, I don't know the actual dates of the top of my head, otherwise I'd be quoting 'em here), on such and such date an early attempt was made at the vocal, on this date the final vocals for the tage were done. And then you could say it was mixed on this and this date, and mastered on that date, and finally released to the public.

Then, if you really wanted to, you could go back and say 'on this date, based on how much work we know there was left to do before it came out, it was 23 percent done, or 56 percent, or 74 percent'... or whatever it was.

But with an unfinished creative process, like so much of the product of the SMiLE Sessions ended up being, that's utterly impossible. To illustrate this using another track that was actually finished and released in the end, consider the state of the track that became Good Vibrations... in June 1966. Yes, June 1966. Brian had a backing track recorded (from February) - it's on the Pet Sounds Sessions. Based on that, if you were trying to assign a 'percentage complete' to THAT in Summer 1966, you might say 'well, God Only Knows was at a similar stage a couple of months back... there's a track and a scratch vocal, so it's probably at least 75 percent done...'

But of course between then and the eventual release of the track in Autumn 1966, the recorded track and its lyrics and vocal arrangement were almost totally scrapped, rewritten and re-recorded (several times). When you look back at the finished article, the only piece of the track from the Feb 66 sessions used in the final thing was the verse backing. Everything else was redone. So any percentage guessed at in Summer 1966 would have been completely wrong. It would also depend WHEN you were trying to assess your 'percentage complete'. You might have thought it was 100 percent done after Brian got the version done that was released on Rarities. But of course THAT didn't come out either, so that would have been wrong too.

At one point, the track was going to be canned completely, or given away. If THAT had transpired, nothing of the version Brian began recording in February 1966 might ever have seen release for the Beach Boys at all. Then you might have to revise your percentage for Good Vibrations down to 0 percent - because it would have been an infinite process that was never complete.

You can see where I'm going with this. All attempts at assigning 'it was X percent complete' for SMiLE itself are as futile and wrong as estimating a 'percentage complete' would have been for Good Vibrations in Summer 1966. If you don't know how much work is left to do, which can ONLY be correctly estimated from the point in time when it's done and released, you can't assign any kind of accurate 'percentage done' at all.

As you can probably tell, I think the idea of assigning a 'percentage complete' is pretty daft anyway. I mean, if you can only accurately assign numbers once the project's over anyway, what's the point while work is on-going as any kind of indication of how much further you've got to go? And when it's done, you don't really care any more that on February 12th you were this much through finishing it...

I'd also argue that all bets are off where SMiLE is concerned, even more so than with previous Beach Boys projects. Basing an estimate of how much the tracks were complete on Brian's established production methods up until 1966 is surely a bit of a non-starter, as SMiLE was way more complex in terms of production, assembly, mixing and completion than any previous record they'd made until then. I mean... how done is the April version of Vega-Tables? It's completely impossible to say. Sure, there's lots of stuff on tape, instruments, vocals, overdubs, various sections... but because of how the sections are recorded, we can't even say what order the verses, choruses and various sections were going to be in. You can guess at a *likely* order — as Mark L did for the GV box set mix/edit, and Alan Boyd did for the SMiLE Sessions — but we can't say that those released versions reflect the plan back in the day. Who knows how many more overdubs, edits, and mono overdubs to the edited track at mixing stage there might possibly have been?

It turns out that all the effort on Vega-Tables (the 'demo' from Autumn 1966, and the various sessions and recording sessions for different sections in early Spring 1967) produced very, very little in terms of an assessable percentage of material that was finally used on the 'released' track. A couple of bars of backing and vocals on the tag of the Smiley Smile version of Vegetables was all that was released that year. You probably would have said in late April 1967 that the track was nearly done... but you'd have been wrong. It took them starting almost completely afresh for Smiley Smile before the track was completed to the extent that they would put it out.

Based on all that, I'd say that Brian, even at the super-speed he was accustomed to working at in the studio when all his cylinders were firing, might not have been far wrong when he said it might have taken him another year to complete the album. But his assessment of that, made only in recent years and several decades after the original sessions, is to some extent almost as much guesswork as it would be from anyone else. And I feel as though Andrew's guess of a couple of months has got to be a minimum, given all the work that went on getting GV right before it finally came out. But that, of course, is just MY guess... and therefore just as much smoke as all the other speculation here!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Unless there are two, three (minimum) session contracts missing, "The Elements" consisted of "Fire" and nothing else since 11/28/66. Knowing Brian's working methods for the preceding few years, that means at least two, three more tracking sessions. Add to that, say, six, seven vocal sessions, the sweetening, the mixing, the editing, the sequencing and the mastering... you're looking at another good two months work. In the 2000s, Brian said he needed another year to finish it. Carl et al may have thought Smile was finished and ready to go... they may have even been told that... but the available hard evidence contradicts that, and no amount of smoke & mirrors can make it read otherwise. If Smile was capable of being rush released by late April 1967, or again in late summer, then surely it would have been. As someone else noted, downthread, when Brian said something, he may have truly believed it at that moment in time. The next morning... that afternoon... an hour later... who knows ?

Yes, it would've taken a few (several?) sessions for Brian to complete "The Elements" - if he still planned to complete the track. It would've been nice to hear a completed "The Elements", but he didn't necessarily need it for a subsequent (after Smiley Smile) album; he had enough quality material left. And, due to the fact that he used up "Vegetables" and "Wind Chimes" on Smiley Smile, maybe he didn't want "The Elements" on the ten track SMiLE anyway (not that I'm necessarily insinuating "Vegetables" and Wind Chimes" were part of "The Elements" )

[Ian]

But it is also clear that Brian had enough material for an incredible album in early 67, just not the album that he initially envisioned.  His perfectionism finally worked against him-he just couldn't stop tinkering with already incredible tracks.  If he'd just moved on from Heroes, he could undoubtedly have gotten an album together by March-April.  The endless Heroes sessions in January (plus in my opinion needless tinkering with the gorgeous Wonderful) really hurt him.

[Sheriff John Stone]

But it is also clear that Brian had enough material for an incredible album in early 67, just not the album that he initially envisioned.  His perfectionism finally worked against him-he just couldn't stop tinkering with already incredible tracks.  If he'd just moved on from Heroes, he could undoubtedly have gotten an album together by March-April.  The endless Heroes sessions in January (plus in my opinion needless tinkering with the gorgeous Wonderful) really hurt him.

And, you're absolutely right. Brian did have enough incredible material for an early 1967 release. Maybe he just felt (as you suggest, because of tinkering), he needed more time. Smiley Smile bought him more time.

Another thought on Brian using "Vegetables" and "Wind Chimes" on Smiley Smile. I'm not just saying this to bolster my argument (though I'm not really arguing with anybody ), but I always felt that, like "Good Vibrations", "Vegetables" and "Wind Chimes" were the most un-SMiLE-like songs, mainly because of the lyrics. In Vegetables" you have the lines "my tenny flew right off" and "...when you send us in your letter". And, as we know, Brian's inspiration for "Wind Chimes" wasn't some brilliant Van Dyke Parks' lyric; it was Brian staring at his wind chimes and deciding to write a song about them!

You can remove "Good Vibrations", ""Vegetables", and ""Wind Chimes", and still have a unified ten track SMiLE:

Side A
01  Our Prayer
02  Heroes And Villains (an album version different from the single, maybe including "Cantina" and other goodies)
03  Do You Like Worms
04  Holidays
05  Cabinessence

Side B
06  I'm In Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around/Workshop/Barnyard/The Old Master Painter/Fade
07  Wonderful (original version)
08  Look
09  Child Is Father Of The Man
10  Surf's Up

[Cam Mott]

Who is the person or persons close to the action not saying the album is good to go in spring 1967 ?

Brian?  No, you mean Al.

[The Shift]

But it is also clear that Brian had enough material for an incredible album in early 67, just not the album that he initially envisioned.  His perfectionism finally worked against him-he just couldn't stop tinkering with already incredible tracks.  If he'd just moved on from Heroes, he could undoubtedly have gotten an album together by March-April.  The endless Heroes sessions in January (plus in my opinion needless tinkering with the gorgeous Wonderful) really hurt him.

For my money he could have made an album of Heroes and all its variants and I'd've been delirious. They're simply a parade of exquisity after exquisity and I can never get enough. This thread has prompted me recently to get all my SoT, TSS, PsychS, Archeology and other discs uploaded into one iTunes playlist and have them on repeat-shuffle … I'd become over-familiar with the material over years of incessant listening and consequently given it a wide berth for quite a while, so it's been an incredibly enjoyable indulgence. And it's amazing how many of the tunes have a root somewhere or other in that Heroes/Bicycle Rider theme, and how many more feature that ascending/descending Iron Horse/Fire sequence; and of course they're effectively conjoined by the H&V Intro piece… so many wonderful, recurring musical themes…