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Author Topic: Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?  (Read 48242 times)
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #600 on: February 04, 2016, 08:38:07 AM »

Craig, I'm away from home thus no access to my archives. However...

In 1967 Carl said one thing, then five years later said exactly the opposite, something even you cannot deny without ridicule. The article gave a list of the tracks to be included, some which were to be grouped under "Heroes And Villains". Hopefully Cam will oblige with the actual wording.

Plus I find the insinuation that I am ignorant of BB 101 more than slightly, and calculatingly, insulting. I was under the impression that the mods were here to facilitate the smooth running of the forum. Maybe I'm labouring under a misapprehension.
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« Reply #601 on: February 04, 2016, 08:42:27 AM »

Ok
HIT WEEK-May 18 1967 (Dutch magazine).  The band were interviewed in Holland on May 14 and asked why they'd released the two year old single "Then I Kissed Her."  Mike answered: "Of course we'd prefer to release something new and we thought that Smile would be released directly after our British tour but Brian is a perfectionist, that's why it takes so long."   Dennis: "Everything was already finished, also the Heroes and Villains single, but my brother Brian is very serious, I find that a good thing."   Bruce (Discussing the rumor that Brian had decided to scrap Heroes and release Vegetables as a single instead: "Heroes evolved and really became too long for a single.  Vegetables also might be a bit more commercial."  

D & ME May 20 1967 reported: "Contrary to some reports, plans for the 'Heroes and Villains' the group's scheduled new single, have not been completely scrapped.  Roger Easterby of the Howes office, who was with the boys throughout their British tour, said: 'When the boys return to the States they will spend a complete month in the studios completing 'Heroes and Villains' and also working on a new LP."

LA TIMES syndicated story that appeared in July 1967 commented: "Rumor had it that, apart from the legal hassles with Capitol. he (Brian) was not happy with the tapes, which had already been through months of mixing, balancing, splicing and mastering and might never let them be issued as records....On July 5 Brian Wilson finished the tape and invited Capitol's director of artists and repertoire Karl Engemann to the house to hear it.  'I arrived' Engemann said 'and no one was there.  Brian had gotten so excited with the finished tape that he'd taken it to radio station KHJ so he could hear it on the radio.'...The album too will be forthcoming, retitled Smiley Smile-the redundant adjective tacked on apparently as grinning finish to a long quiet hassle."    (this article makes clear-that the situation was being spun as BBs finally finished Smile to their satisfaction-rather than BBs scrapped it and did something new)

In August 12 1967 Melody Maker  Bruce refers to the gap between Good Vibrations and Heroes "came about because we were on a European tour; because we were involved in a lawsuit with our recording company in the States; and because Brian decided to record Heroes and Villains again when we got back from the tour.  He scrapped a finished version of the song and wrote it again.  This version is completely different from the number he wrote first."

Sept 1967 Carl Wilson interview with Pete Johnson of the LA Times: "Those six months were a difficult time for us.  Brian just wasn't happy with Heroes and Villains until he had worked it over and over, throwing out parts and adding new ones.  So we had no new records and we were in a lawsuit with Capitol and then my draft problem developed....

Carl commented that the new album is not the same one that Brian was working on at the time Good Vibrations was released "He still has all those tapes but we decided not to have a complicated album this time.  We did Smiley Smile quickly in a couple of weeks to get something out.  It's not nearly as ambitious an album as Pet Sounds was.

Carl interviewed in Fairfield, CT in Nov 1967 "In the case of Heroes and Villains we didn't feel that it would have the mass appeal so we canned it for awhile and decided to release it. Originally we didn't release it because we didn't think that it would be the kind of song that people would hear on the radio and immediately pick up."

Mike in Beat Instrumental February 1968 (Interview done in BBs brief visit to London in Dec 1967)- Regarding Wild Honey "Sure people were baffled and mystified by Smiley Smile but it was a matter of progression.  We had this feeling that we were going too far, losing touch I guess, and this new one brings us back more into reality....Brian has been re-thinking our recording program and in any case we all have a much greater say nowadays in what we turn out in the studio."
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« Reply #602 on: February 04, 2016, 08:43:51 AM »

But if you choose to call Carl a liar and discredit everything he says, Cam...

I can't remember anybody here calling Carl a liar, and pointing out that one or two of his statements were inaccurate doesn't mean discrediting everything he says or judging him to be a bad person. In real life there is no black or white. Neither Brian or Carl are angels nor is Mike a devil - and vice versa of course. I don't think anybody here feels that Carl was an unsympathetic and unrespectable person. Quite the contrary.

And should Carl in fact have consciously bended the truth a little in his comments, I'm 100% sure he did what he felt what was best for the band and his brother Brian. And as someone said, Carl was being diplomatic. Is that a bad thing?

Now the suggestion of discrediting Carl appears in the discussion. In both this and the other Smile discussions, so far we have seen attempts or suggestions to discredit the following people: Carl, Brian, Al, Michael Vosse, David Anderle, Jules Siegel. Any others to add? Van Dyke perhaps? Anyone else?

First question: Let's say we do for whatever reasons. Just discredit them and their words regarding what they've said or written about Smile since 1967.

Someone tell me who that leaves as a solid and reliable source when it comes to telling the history of Smile moving forward?

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but every human being is fallible and there is nobody whose every word can be taken as gospel. Everybody's statements have to be checked for plausibility. That doesn't equal discrediting them completely.


It’s completely illogical to say that a person in a band, under enormous pressure, wouldn’t be impacted AT ALL by their mates’ opinions, frustrations, and questions. Our lack of full scope of their interpersonal relationships at the time does not negate the potential impact these actions could have made, does it?

Is there anybody but Cam who would disagree with this? But what if some of the band members' objections were actually justified? Brian's a genius, but not infallible.


Here's my assumed scenario. It's an assumption, I could be dead wrong. The touring band felt estranged from their boss. The music he created had nothing to do with the other members anymore, they didn't identify with some of the music, which furthermore at the time was near impossible to do live. There wasn't much harmony anymore. Thus they tried to close the gap that had developed between Brian and the rest of the group in the two and a half years they had been working seperately, by working as one unit again. So it was - unfortunately - decided to junk the whole batch of one year's recordings and start from scratch. Why it was decided to record at Brian's home rather than in proper studios is another thing. And to display that it wasn't one king and a couple of pawns anymore, the new record bore the credit "produced by the Beach Boys", even though Brian still pulled the strings.
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« Reply #603 on: February 04, 2016, 08:48:30 AM »

Well-see my above quotes-it's clear that there were discussions about direction, commercial appeal, etc.  It's also clear that at some point it was decided that future records would be "Produced by the Beach Boys" and that had to be a conversation.....or maybe not. One gets the feeling that this band didn't communicate well-things were often left unspoken.
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« Reply #604 on: February 04, 2016, 08:52:31 AM »

Well-see my above quotes-it's clear that there were discussions about direction, commercial appeal, etc.  It's also clear that at some point it was decided that future records would be "Produced by the Beach Boys" and that had to be a conversation.....or maybe not. One gets the feeling that this band didn't communicate well-things were often left unspoken.

It took me a long time to type what I typed, I didn't read your post before I submitted mine, but I am happy to see it consistant with what you posted. Smiley
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« Reply #605 on: February 04, 2016, 09:03:41 AM »

Craig, I'm away from home thus no access to my archives. However...

In 1967 Carl said one thing, then five years later said exactly the opposite, something even you cannot deny without ridicule. The article gave a list of the tracks to be included, some which were to be grouped under "Heroes And Villains". Hopefully Cam will oblige with the actual wording.

Plus I find the insinuation that I am ignorant of BB 101 more than slightly, and calculatingly, insulting. I was under the impression that the mods were here to facilitate the smooth running of the forum. Maybe I'm labouring under a misapprehension.

I'm not Cam, obviously, but here is the quote from a summer of '72 Melody Maker article by Richard Williams entitled, "SMiLE...It's Carl and the Passions":

    You thought “Surf’s Up” was a nice surprise, maybe?  Well listen, kids: If you can steer clear of the grim reaper ‘til next Fall, “Smile” is coming your way.
 
     And, yes, it’s the real “Smile” – the original tapes, made in 1967 by Brian Wilson and never released because . . .  well, I guess you know the story about the “Fire” track, and how it caused a rash of conflagrations within the immediate vicinity of the studio.

     But didn’t we all think Brian had destroyed those tapes?  Sure we did.  He said so, didn’t he?  A million times.

     He must have been putting us on, though.  All the tapes have now been found, pieced together, new vocals overdubbed where necessary, and the whole album will be out
[unreadable…I’m guessing ‘before’] long.

     The complete list of tracks is: “The Child Is Father To The Man”, “Surf’s Up”, “Sunshine”, “The Old Master Painter”, “Barnyard”, “Cabin-essence” (incorporating “Iron Horse”), “Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow”, “I Love To Say Dada” (incorporating “Cool Cool Water”), and the different original versions of “Vege-tables”, “Wind Chimes”, and “Wonderful”.  Most of them seem to come under the overall sub-title of “Heroes and Villains”.

     Carl Wilson tells a story about the day he was working on the tape of “Master Painter”.  “Somebody put the tape out with the garbage, by mistake.  It got shredded, into a thousand pieces.  I had to go out, find it, and put it back together again.  It’s okay now, but we’ve made safety copies of everything, just in case.  Those old things were done on four-track tape, and they’re very fragile.”

     Carl is making his revelations by candlelight in a conference room at London’s Royal Garden Hotel.


We now know, of course, that no new vocals were overdubbed in '72, and that the only work done was to listen, catalog, and make safety copies.
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« Reply #606 on: February 04, 2016, 09:20:16 AM »

Craig, I'm away from home thus no access to my archives. However...

In 1967 Carl said one thing, then five years later said exactly the opposite, something even you cannot deny without ridicule. The article gave a list of the tracks to be included, some which were to be grouped under "Heroes And Villains". Hopefully Cam will oblige with the actual wording.

Plus I find the insinuation that I am ignorant of BB 101 more than slightly, and calculatingly, insulting. I was under the impression that the mods were here to facilitate the smooth running of the forum. Maybe I'm labouring under a misapprehension.

That wasn't the insinuation. Maybe you're being too defensive and looking for insults where they don't exist. As far as introducing your opinions on the moderation of the board as a topic in this discussion, it's not relevant at all.
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"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #607 on: February 04, 2016, 09:30:16 AM »

And perhaps you're searching for conspiracy theories and agendas where they don't exist...
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« Reply #608 on: February 04, 2016, 09:35:01 AM »

But if you choose to call Carl a liar and discredit everything he says, Cam...

I can't remember anybody here calling Carl a liar, and pointing out that one or two of his statements were inaccurate doesn't mean discrediting everything he says or judging him to be a bad person. In real life there is no black or white. Neither Brian or Carl are angels nor is Mike a devil - and vice versa of course. I don't think anybody here feels that Carl was an unsympathetic and unrespectable person. Quite the contrary.

And should Carl in fact have consciously bended the truth a little in his comments, I'm 100% sure he did what he felt what was best for the band and his brother Brian. And as someone said, Carl was being diplomatic. Is that a bad thing?

Now the suggestion of discrediting Carl appears in the discussion. In both this and the other Smile discussions, so far we have seen attempts or suggestions to discredit the following people: Carl, Brian, Al, Michael Vosse, David Anderle, Jules Siegel. Any others to add? Van Dyke perhaps? Anyone else?

First question: Let's say we do for whatever reasons. Just discredit them and their words regarding what they've said or written about Smile since 1967.

Someone tell me who that leaves as a solid and reliable source when it comes to telling the history of Smile moving forward?

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but every human being is fallible and there is nobody whose every word can be taken as gospel. Everybody's statements have to be checked for plausibility. That doesn't equal discrediting them completely.


It’s completely illogical to say that a person in a band, under enormous pressure, wouldn’t be impacted AT ALL by their mates’ opinions, frustrations, and questions. Our lack of full scope of their interpersonal relationships at the time does not negate the potential impact these actions could have made, does it?

Is there anybody but Cam who would disagree with this? But what if some of the band members' objections were actually justified? Brian's a genius, but not infallible.


Here's my assumed scenario. It's an assumption, I could be dead wrong. The touring band felt estranged from their boss. The music he created had nothing to do with the other members anymore, they didn't identify with some of the music, which furthermore at the time was near impossible to do live. There wasn't much harmony anymore. Thus they tried to close the gap that had developed between Brian and the rest of the group in the two and a half years they had been working seperately, by working as one unit again. So it was - unfortunately - decided to junk the whole batch of one year's recordings and start from scratch. Why it was decided to record at Brian's home rather than in proper studios is another thing. And to display that it wasn't one king and a couple of pawns anymore, the new record bore the credit "produced by the Beach Boys", even though Brian still pulled the strings.

Micha: A few points, I'll try to address them without quoting each one.

First, it was John Manning's post several pages ago that asked about discrediting Carl's comments due to what some were seeing as factual errors or contradictions. When I posted replies after that, I also hypothetically said "IF we discredit Carl's words", or if Carl's words are discredited, or similar variations. I was not the one who brought it up in the first place, though I knew it would eventually be suggested because what Carl said would serve to disprove some very long-held theories about Smile, Smiley, the whole works.

I have advocated since Carl's comments appeared here that we take what he said for what he said, and judge it on that level. If we dismiss entirely everything he said based on a word or a line, that to me is unfair and ultimately wrong.

What you wrote here:
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but every human being is fallible and there is nobody whose every word can be taken as gospel. Everybody's statements have to be checked for plausibility. That doesn't equal discrediting them completely.


That is EXACTLY what I have been saying too. Why you direct it at me who has been agreeing with exactly that principle instead of addressing those who are using one questionable line or one word to throw away everything a person said or wrote is something maybe you could answer for me, because we're in agreement here and have been all along. I've been arguing against casting Carl's entire comments in doubt, or to use John Manning's term "discrediting" Carl based on the inaccuracies some think are there.

Your scenario is a valid one, for sure. It would make sense. What I would highlight is this specific line:
So it was - unfortunately - decided to junk the whole batch of one year's recordings and start from scratch.

This line effectively rejects most if not all of the theories that what became Smiley Smile, conceptually or in any way, could have started as early as March or April. There was a very defined starting point for when the sessions moved into Brian's house. The entire scope and methods used to record, along with brand new songs and complete overhauls, changed at that point.

In other words, as you said and as Carl said, they started from scratch. They did not pick up what had already been started months ago, as some have tried to suggest, and there was a clear shift in direction dating exactly to June 1967.

We agree on this more than you might assume we do.

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“Some people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I don’t look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. It’s just wrong thinking in my opinion and I don’t mind saying that.” - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #609 on: February 04, 2016, 09:36:45 AM »

The SMiLE pool scene in L&M is a very simplified summary of what Craig is saying! Wink
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« Reply #610 on: February 04, 2016, 09:37:53 AM »

And perhaps you're searching for conspiracy theories and agendas where they don't exist...

If that's directed at me, show me where I'm searching for conspiracy theories and agendas. If not, whoever it's directed at can answer instead.
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“Some people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I don’t look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. It’s just wrong thinking in my opinion and I don’t mind saying that.” - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #611 on: February 04, 2016, 09:47:34 AM »


If you are somehow not dodging a question, please direct me to what you believe an example of dodging a question WOULD be.  
 

Still no response to this, FDP? Look, if you don't want to answer the original question, just own up to dodging and say so. You're so deep into dodging, you additionally dodge the question about dodging.



"getting into someone's mind-space" is well outside of my expertise.  I will not opine about Brian's state-of-mind and his interpersonal relationships. I find that ridiculous. Nor, will I be goaded into such a discussion.  Forgettaboutit.  Ain't happenin'.


So you don't honestly have an internal opinion about how Brian's mates most likely impacted his state of mind? No gut level feeling gives you an iota of a feeling in the slightest one way or another? Or you have some semblance of a guess, but just don't feel comfortable sharing and talking about the opinion on a message board? Which is it?  

And why is it ok to talk about how the Capitol Record execs, for example, likely put lots of pressure that weighed on Brian?  Didn't the people at the record company who pressured Brian have interpersonal relationships (however surface) with Brian? Why is that angle ok to talk about when figuring out why the project failed? Using your logic, it's off limits to discuss how Brian may have felt as a result of Capitol execs, right?



 
And, Mike might have been "put up" to making this inquiry by the rest of the band.  



If the rest of the band "put Mike up to it"... if they were gathering around to goad Mike into getting VDP into the studio for Mike to grill VDP about lyrics (especially in the tactful, respectful manner that Mike likely did), don't you for one moment think that Mike would have mentioned this in an interview over the years?

Mike seems to feel completely justified in having asked question, he's expressed zero feelings of regret for either asking, or the manner he asked the question (not an unimportant or irrelevant factor)...  yet he knows that lots of other people think otherwise because he continues to get asked about it in interviews. It makes no sense that he wouldn't at some point have said "well Carl, Denny, and/or Al put me up to it or encouraged me to ask in the manner that I did", if that scenario did actually happen, because as someone who thinks it's ok and not wrong, he wouldn't be throwing his bandmates under the bus; he'd think they did nothing wrong either, and it would surely take some heat off him.

It's one of the hugest, most infamous things Mike is known for, and I don't think he'd keep other bandmates "putting him up to it" some big secret. That's why this argument holds no water.

 


I taught Kindergarten, (greatest job on the planet)



I think that's awesome, and I have nothing but respect for teachers... but for a moment, consider if a student of yours showed symptoms of possibly having received emotional/verbal abuse. I don't imagine you'd just ignore those signs and think they are of negligible concern. People can be harmed by things other than fists.  Is Brian exempt from being emotionally harmed?
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« Reply #612 on: February 04, 2016, 09:49:07 AM »

Well-see my above quotes-it's clear that there were discussions about direction, commercial appeal, etc.  It's also clear that at some point it was decided that future records would be "Produced by the Beach Boys" and that had to be a conversation.....or maybe not. One gets the feeling that this band didn't communicate well-things were often left unspoken.

Ian - Thank you for posting those articles! Much appreciated.

Of the group, they're all important, but Bruce's and Carl's comments stood out on my first read-through. Except for his not mentioning Carl's draft issues, Bruce summed up in a few lines at that time what I tried and failed to do over several pages!  Grin

 Quote:

In August 12 1967 Melody Maker  Bruce refers to the gap between Good Vibrations and Heroes "came about because we were on a European tour; because we were involved in a lawsuit with our recording company in the States; and because Brian decided to record Heroes and Villains again when we got back from the tour.  He scrapped a finished version of the song and wrote it again.  This version is completely different from the number he wrote first."

Sept 1967 Carl Wilson interview with Pete Johnson of the LA Times: "Those six months were a difficult time for us.  Brian just wasn't happy with Heroes and Villains until he had worked it over and over, throwing out parts and adding new ones.  So we had no new records and we were in a lawsuit with Capitol and then my draft problem developed....


Both mention the lawsuit. Carl mentions the draft. Bruce and Carl mention the scrapping and re-recording of the Heroes single. The re-recording issue is one that Brian, Dennis, Mike, and I believe Carl and Bruce too had commented on various times going into May 67, all saying a variation of "we need time" to put out the quality of records we want to put out for the fans. They were on the same page.

It got lost in many sideline discussions during this thread, but the effects of that lawsuit on the whole process if not the band's musical activities in general cannot be underestimated. It had a major impact on every aspect of the band's recording and release activities, then on top of that Carl's issues with the draft reached a critical point during the same months.

The lawsuit, in terms of external (and internal) pressures that affected the album and the single's progress, was a major issue, if not one of the major issues to consider for Spring 67. And during this critical time, the band was on roughly a six-week long tour of the US and Europe that took them away from home where all of this was going on. When they finally returned, major changes took place. June 1967.

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“Some people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I don’t look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. It’s just wrong thinking in my opinion and I don’t mind saying that.” - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #613 on: February 04, 2016, 09:54:34 AM »

Question for Ian Rusten...If this comes across as asking too much, my apologies in advance.  Smiley

Do you have a transcript for the Pete Johnson LA Times piece with Carl which you quoted here, October 8th 1967 issue? It's the same piece the previous Carl quotes which got deleted from the board appeared. I'd be interested and I'm sure others would too in seeing the context where those quotes appeared in the full article.

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“Some people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I don’t look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. It’s just wrong thinking in my opinion and I don’t mind saying that.” - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #614 on: February 04, 2016, 09:56:20 AM »

Craig, I'm away from home thus no access to my archives. However...

In 1967 Carl said one thing, then five years later said exactly the opposite, something even you cannot deny without ridicule. The article gave a list of the tracks to be included, some which were to be grouped under "Heroes And Villains". Hopefully Cam will oblige with the actual wording.

Plus I find the insinuation that I am ignorant of BB 101 more than slightly, and calculatingly, insulting. I was under the impression that the mods were here to facilitate the smooth running of the forum. Maybe I'm labouring under a misapprehension.

I'm not Cam, obviously, but here is the quote from a summer of '72 Melody Maker article by Richard Williams entitled, "SMiLE...It's Carl and the Passions":

    You thought “Surf’s Up” was a nice surprise, maybe?  Well listen, kids: If you can steer clear of the grim reaper ‘til next Fall, “Smile” is coming your way.
 
     And, yes, it’s the real “Smile” – the original tapes, made in 1967 by Brian Wilson and never released because . . .  well, I guess you know the story about the “Fire” track, and how it caused a rash of conflagrations within the immediate vicinity of the studio.

     But didn’t we all think Brian had destroyed those tapes?  Sure we did.  He said so, didn’t he?  A million times.

     He must have been putting us on, though.  All the tapes have now been found, pieced together, new vocals overdubbed where necessary, and the whole album will be out
[unreadable…I’m guessing ‘before’] long.

     The complete list of tracks is: “The Child Is Father To The Man”, “Surf’s Up”, “Sunshine”, “The Old Master Painter”, “Barnyard”, “Cabin-essence” (incorporating “Iron Horse”), “Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow”, “I Love To Say Dada” (incorporating “Cool Cool Water”), and the different original versions of “Vege-tables”, “Wind Chimes”, and “Wonderful”.  Most of them seem to come under the overall sub-title of “Heroes and Villains”.

     Carl Wilson tells a story about the day he was working on the tape of “Master Painter”.  “Somebody put the tape out with the garbage, by mistake.  It got shredded, into a thousand pieces.  I had to go out, find it, and put it back together again.  It’s okay now, but we’ve made safety copies of everything, just in case.  Those old things were done on four-track tape, and they’re very fragile.”

     Carl is making his revelations by candlelight in a conference room at London’s Royal Garden Hotel.


We now know, of course, that no new vocals were overdubbed in '72, and that the only work done was to listen, catalog, and make safety copies.


That is indeed the one, many thanks. As can be seen, previously released tracks - including "Surfs Up" - were set to be included.

Incidentally, when I asked SWD about this, he told me that Carl did indeed listen to the tapes and that safety copies were made. The tapes were then returned to the vault with no further attempt at completion being made.
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« Reply #615 on: February 04, 2016, 09:59:37 AM »

Craig, I'm away from home thus no access to my archives. However...

In 1967 Carl said one thing, then five years later said exactly the opposite, something even you cannot deny without ridicule. The article gave a list of the tracks to be included, some which were to be grouped under "Heroes And Villains". Hopefully Cam will oblige with the actual wording.

Plus I find the insinuation that I am ignorant of BB 101 more than slightly, and calculatingly, insulting. I was under the impression that the mods were here to facilitate the smooth running of the forum. Maybe I'm labouring under a misapprehension.

That wasn't the insinuation. Maybe you're being too defensive and looking for insults where they don't exist. As far as introducing your opinions on the moderation of the board as a topic in this discussion, it's not relevant at all.

That's your opinion. Others may well disagree.
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« Reply #616 on: February 04, 2016, 10:07:54 AM »

Craig, I'm away from home thus no access to my archives. However...

In 1967 Carl said one thing, then five years later said exactly the opposite, something even you cannot deny without ridicule. The article gave a list of the tracks to be included, some which were to be grouped under "Heroes And Villains". Hopefully Cam will oblige with the actual wording.

Plus I find the insinuation that I am ignorant of BB 101 more than slightly, and calculatingly, insulting. I was under the impression that the mods were here to facilitate the smooth running of the forum. Maybe I'm labouring under a misapprehension.

That wasn't the insinuation. Maybe you're being too defensive and looking for insults where they don't exist. As far as introducing your opinions on the moderation of the board as a topic in this discussion, it's not relevant at all.

That's your opinion. Others may well disagree.

Do you want to shift this discussion now to make it about me and start rehashing all your previous issues about moderating the board? Why not just post and comment about the actual Smile/Smiley/etc issues being discussed here like everyone else, and discuss the new (for many readers here) quotes and articles being posted here? Seriously. If your goal is to again make me the issue and call into question the moderation of this board it won't be done in this thread, and it won't serve as a distraction to those of us (however many or few) who want to discuss these issues further. It will not be locked, it will not be deleted, and it will not become the thread to air whatever complaints you have about how the board is moderated.
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« Reply #617 on: February 04, 2016, 10:12:58 AM »

Billy's line.  Smiley
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« Reply #618 on: February 04, 2016, 10:26:26 AM »


If you are somehow not dodging a question, please direct me to what you believe an example of dodging a question WOULD be.  
Still no response to this, FDP? Look, if you don't want to answer the original question, just own up to dodging. You're so deep into dodging, you additionally dodge the question about dodging.

"getting into someone's mind-space" is well outside of my expertise.  I will not opine about Brian's state-of-mind and his interpersonal relationships. I find that ridiculous. Nor, will I be goaded into such a discussion.  Forgettaboutit.  Ain't happenin'.
So you don't honestly have an internal opinion about how Brian's mates most likely impacted his state of mind? No gut level feeling gives you an iota of a feeling in the slightest one way or another? Or you have some semblance of a guess, but just don't feel comfortable sharing and talking about the opinion on a message board? Which is it?  

And why is it ok to talk about how the Capitol Record execs, for example, likely put lots of pressure that weighed on Brian?  Didn't the people at the record company who pressured Brian have interpersonal relationships (however surface) with Brian? Why is that angle ok to talk about when figuring out why the project failed? Using your logic, it's off limits to discuss how Brian may have felt as a result of Capitol execs, right?



 
And, Mike might have been "put up" to making this inquiry by the rest of the band.  


If the rest of the band "put Mike up to it"... if they were gathering around to goad Mike into getting VDP into the studio for Mike to grill VDP about lyrics (especially in the tactful, respectful manner that he likely did), don't you for one moment think that Mike would have mentioned this in an interview over the years? Mike seems to feel completely justified in having asked question, he's expressed zero feelings of regret for either asking, or the manner he asked the question (not an unimportant or irrelevant factor)...  yet he knows that lots of other people think otherwise because he continues to get asked about it in interviews. It makes no sense that he wouldn't at some point have said "well Carl, Denny, and/or Al put me up to it or encouraged me to ask in the manner that I did", if that scenario did actually happen, because as someone who thinks it's ok and not wrong, he wouldn't be throwing his bandmates under the bus. That's why this argument holds no water.

I taught Kindergarten, (greatest job on the planet)
I think that's awesome, and I have nothing but respect for teachers... but for a moment, consider if a student of yours showed symptoms of possibly having received emotional/verbal abuse. I don't imagine you'd just ignore those signs and think they are of negligible concern. People can be harmed by things other than fists.  
CD - Yes, I had the greatest job on the planet for several decades and every day was a privilege.  That said, I am starting at the end of your post.  I taught the poorest of the poor, often in the most dire of situations. That said, I did have many children that were emotionally compromised.  What I did was "observe" them for behavior, write down what "they did" but not "why" they did it.  That is opining outside of my expertise.  

So, I could report that they behaved aggressively or passively.  Or could not engage with their peers, well.  And that gave me a framework to refer a child for "assessment by a professional." So, my background in education supports my reluctance to opine on someone's behavioral health.  One of my 4 year old students would wash her clean hands 50 times in a matter of a couple of hours.  I could not assess and opine on that, but it is a sign of terrible abuse that I referred immediately for diagnosis.  So, I cannot opine and diagnose as I am a step away from that expertise.   And the lines are pretty clear.  

Tact or no tact, or maybe exasperation could be the case with the lyrics.  And if the band looked at the lyrics and collectively said "what the heck" is this, who would go to the source and challenge them?  And, standing back to see who was in the best position, I would not choose Carl or Dennis because they barely finished high school.  It doesn't mean they were not smart, but younger, with fewer academic credentials.  I absolutely agree with Mike's position, because he was paying for the service.  If you pay; you get a say.  Further, he had a duty, as a corporate member to advance a product that would sell.  That is why you incorporate.  

State-of-mind... as to the reaction to the PR in 1967.  How would any ordinary person react?  Not a Brian or a Beach Boy, but anyone who was falsely represented.  It would not matter whom it would be.  

It is ok to talk about the Capitol execs.  You bet.  I am not using logic as others are attempting to use it.

What I am using - these  "inconsistent reports," promotion that was "regressive" (1967 with the clock turned backwards to 1965.)  I am comparing what is written against what quotes were given, with respect the tour.  I am offering Dennis' interview with Peter Fornatale to show the faith they had in Brian.  I am offering the Gaumont Palace interview with two twin beds pushed together and four guys squished together, reflecting candidly about their poor experience with the record company promoting an image that no longer existed.  

The Beach Boys are talking about the Capitol execs so it is fair play for discussion.  The Beach Boys opened the door to that discussion.  And, it is really easy for me.  I have compared student work for indications of cheating.  Or conflicting stories about schoolyard fights.  No logic, just prior inconsistent statements.  Means there is a big hole in the story.    

No logic; you won't find it.  Statements, interviews, PR inconsistencies; comparing them to each other.  If these journalists or PR people knew when they wrote these articles, that they would be held up to scrutiny, they might have been more careful with accuracy.  It is very much on my radar. Your work follows you.      

And, looking back, who would rely on a teeny bopper magazine to source as history? Seriously, that is not credible history. Especially if it was part of a PR campaign. Even if I hung on to every word as a teenager.  

Bottom line - there is no straight story.  Maybe they thought no teacher would ever check their work!  LOL

Hope that helps.   Wink
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« Reply #619 on: February 04, 2016, 10:29:45 AM »

C'mon, you guys, break it up and let's keep this discussion going. The thread is (for the most part) extremely interesting. Most have us have been here a long time and want to see more of that kind of thing. And not the interpersonal stuff...

Just a plea for sanity. Let's not go to the dark side if we don't have to...
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« Reply #620 on: February 04, 2016, 10:50:05 AM »

Good stuff, Ian. Thanks.

That LA Times puts a date on the very night Brian took H&V to KHJ, I don't remember seeing that confirmed before.  July 5 was a Wednesday.

So Dennis also thought SMiLE was finished before May 14.  So far Brian's brothers are the main suspects in the suspected scrapped sabotage, I suspect.
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« Reply #621 on: February 04, 2016, 11:18:11 AM »

Good stuff, Ian. Thanks.

That LA Times puts a date on the very night Brian took H&V to KHJ, I don't remember seeing that confirmed before.

So Dennis also thought SMiLE was finished before May 14.  So far Brian's brothers are the main suspects in the suspected scrapped sabotage, I suspect.

Very interesting indeed. Dennis in May 67 also said it was finished, add his comment to Carl's and there are two band members saying the same thing. Cam, let's take a look at that date for the KHJ visit. If what I'm about to do comes off as parsing, then I'll say in advance guilty as charged!

Here is the quote Ian posted:

LA TIMES syndicated story that appeared in July 1967 commented: "Rumor had it that, apart from the legal hassles with Capitol. he (Brian) was not happy with the tapes, which had already been through months of mixing, balancing, splicing and mastering and might never let them be issued as records....On July 5 Brian Wilson finished the tape and invited Capitol's director of artists and repertoire Karl Engemann to the house to hear it.  'I arrived' Engemann said 'and no one was there.  Brian had gotten so excited with the finished tape that he'd taken it to radio station KHJ so he could hear it on the radio.'...The album too will be forthcoming, retitled Smiley Smile-the redundant adjective tacked on apparently as grinning finish to a long quiet hassle."   

For those who may not have been on this board in 2012, I'm posting this link to what might be some of the best conversation I've ever been involved with on this forum. Well...at least for me and the board's fellow vintage radio and KHJ enthusiast Custom Machine. My mind was officially blown. This is Stephen Desper's firsthand account of what happened that night, firsthand because he went to the station with them. For the detail-oriented readers, it was an acetate which Stephen had cut for Brian that was taken to the station, not a tape copy. However, as you'll read in the discussion, KHJ was playing Heroes as an exclusive, and I know that for a fact having heard a July 67 tape of KHJ's Bobby Ocean playing the record as early as any surviving broadcast that exists in the timeline. That suggested KHJ at some point either made a copy of that acetate, took then transferred the acetate, or perhaps got one later for them to play on the air as Ocean would do later that month.

This is the link to the full discussion:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,13985.50.html

And this is an excerpt from Stephen Desper's account of that night:

COMMENT:  Custom Machine ask me to post my thoughts on this thread, so here they are . . .

SD: And I also remember having to take the lawn mower out of the back of the Phantom 5 limo.

AJ: [huge, hearty laugh]

SD: To make room for everybody. [more laughter]

AJ: That’s a great story! [still laughing] What the hell was the lawn mower doing in there? [new wave of laughter]

SD: Brian didn’t have a truck so he used his Rolls Royce to haul his yard equipment around, and we had it fixed.

AJ: Oh, God, I didn’t even know that. That is so funny…


In 2003 Mr. Desper stated that he’d taken a lawn mower out of Brian’s Rolls Royce Phantom 5 so that more people could fit in the car for the trip to KHJ, about 20 minutes away at 5515 Melrose.


That is still what I remember. I can’t recall if Brian or Dennis helped me with the removal of lawnmower, but someone did. None of this lawnmower business would be known or remembered by the station DJ.  It all happened in the back parking area of Brian’s home.

Who all does Stephen Desper recall making the trip? 

I simply do not recall. I think Brian’s wife or her sister went along, otherwise I do not recall. Maybe Carl. Maybe Alan.

Did Mr. Desper himself make the trip, or after removing the lawn mower did he head home or stay back at Brian’s home studio?

First of all, the song was delivered on an acetate disc which I had cut some time earlier at Artisan Mastering House in Hollywood. It may have been cut the day before, don’t remember. Then it was played a few times and was sitting on the kitchen counter for some time before Brian got the idea of taking it and delivering it himself to the station. He was anxious to get a reaction from the DJ and see how it sounded on the radio. There was some discussion in the kitchen with everyone jazzing each other about this idea -- finally a simple game plan evolved (big plan, drive to the station) and a dash was made to the cars. That was when we discovered the lawnmower was stilll in the Phantom.  I don’t recall who-all went, sorry. It was about five or six people, including me, because the trip was not your usual thing to do in the evening and everyone that was around wanted to go and be part of the “trip to the radio station.” 

How many vehicles does he recall making the trip?  

I can’t be certain, but I think it was two. Most in the Rolls-Royce and overflow in the other car. 

Since he went to the trouble of removing the lawn mover to make room, was it just Brian’s Rolls, or as Melcher stated, was it a caravan of limos?

The Phantom 5 will seat seven or eight people if you use the jump seats. So I would say five or six were in the Limo and the other car was just your standard sedan. I enjoyed driving the Rolls, so it may well have been that I drove. Any additional cars would have been personal cars that happened to be at the home studio that night.

Assuming Stephen Desper went to the KHJ studios, what are his recollections of what transpired?

When we got to the station there was nowhere to park and Brian wanted to go right in, so the Phantom 5 was parked on the street; illegally parked. We all hoped it's size and distinction would give it some sort of VIP illusion and not be towed.

Brian's Black Phantom 5 >>> http://www.autowp.ru/pictures/rolls_royce/phantom/autowp.ru_rolls-royce_phantom_royal_limousine_5.jpg

(( The horn of Brian's Rolls-Royce is featured in Take a Load Off Your Feet))

I remember there was some commotion about getting into the station, that is past the front desk. No appointment – and you don’t just bust into a radio show already on-the-air. But after that was straightened out, the DJ was still a little flabbergasted to have Brian there – and with a new record to be previewed on his show. On the air it seemed as if he was searching for his words, as if trying to buy himself some time before actually playing the record. He was on the phone to get clearance from someone; to cover his ass -- after all he had a responsibility to the station, not The Beach Boys. I recall that at first there was a question if Brian could do this without the record company’s OK, and if airing the song would present a later problem for the station. That was bantered about for a few minutes, but then it was decided to play it just once. You see, in those days if you released a single without stock in the store, you ran the risk of having what was then called “a turntable hit.” That is, a hit that was requested over and over to be played on the radio. By the time the record company could supply stock to the stores, the song would have run its course and not be a hit that was in demand to buy. Hence only a hit on the radio station’s turntable.  So this was something that the DJ did not want to be accused of doing by the record company's A&R people. But Brian and company was there and talking on the air about the recording of the song. The interest had been aired, so at the risk of making a turntable hit, it was decided this would be reduced by playing it once . . . so the song was played. After the airing, it was all over, Brian had gotten the reactions he wanted, and we left. The Rolls was still parked in front of the station on busy Melrose Avenue. I returned to the house studio while others departed for their homes from the station. That’s about it.


~swd

After that post, you'll see discussions about KHJ getting then playing their own copy of Heroes as an exclusive prior to the release.

And *if* Wednesday July 5th was the date of the night they visited KHJ and found DJ Tom Maule on the air in his nighttime shift, what is very frustrating is that one of the few surviving tapes of KHJ's 1967 broadcasts was recorded during the drive-time shift of The Real Don Steele, two days prior, July 3rd 1967. It is one of the coolest pieces of audio I've ever heard.

*If only* someone had also been recording Maule's Wednesday night July 5th shift as Brian showed up with the Heroes acetate... Smiley

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“Some people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I don’t look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. It’s just wrong thinking in my opinion and I don’t mind saying that.” - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #622 on: February 04, 2016, 11:23:36 AM »


After that post, you'll see discussions about KHJ getting then playing their own copy of Heroes as an exclusive prior to the release.

And *if* Wednesday July 5th was the date of the night they visited KHJ and found DJ Tom Maule on the air in his nighttime shift, what is very frustrating is that one of the few surviving tapes of KHJ's 1967 broadcasts was recorded during the drive-time shift of The Real Don Steele, two days prior, July 3rd 1967. It is one of the coolest pieces of audio I've ever heard.

*If only* someone had also been recording Maule's Wednesday night July 5th shift as Brian showed up with the Heroes acetate... Smiley


I did not remember that but it figures.  Another interview shown to be incorrect.
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« Reply #623 on: February 04, 2016, 11:27:19 AM »


After that post, you'll see discussions about KHJ getting then playing their own copy of Heroes as an exclusive prior to the release.

And *if* Wednesday July 5th was the date of the night they visited KHJ and found DJ Tom Maule on the air in his nighttime shift, what is very frustrating is that one of the few surviving tapes of KHJ's 1967 broadcasts was recorded during the drive-time shift of The Real Don Steele, two days prior, July 3rd 1967. It is one of the coolest pieces of audio I've ever heard.

*If only* someone had also been recording Maule's Wednesday night July 5th shift as Brian showed up with the Heroes acetate... Smiley


I did not remember that but it figures.  Another interview shown to be incorrect.

Could you clarify that? What was incorrect? Both Engemann and Desper say Brian took the song to KHJ so he could hear what it sounded like on the radio...which interview or what part of an interview are you saying is incorrect?
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“Some people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I don’t look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. It’s just wrong thinking in my opinion and I don’t mind saying that.” - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #624 on: February 04, 2016, 11:56:26 AM »

I'm sure I'm behind the times, perhaps a bit dense, but I think I finally get the title "Smiley Smile". I imagine everyone having such a bad bummer of a time trying to top Pet Sounds, top Good Vibrations and create this Smile masterpiece, when finally someone says something to the effect, "we're not even smiling anymore, how can we make an album called Smile!" So they put most of what they've got on a shelf and say, hey, let's put a happier process in place and see what we can make if we're actually having fun and smiling. "Let's make a more Smiley Smile"
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took me a while to understand what was going on in this thread. mainly because i thought that veggie was a bokchoy
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