What If?: SMiLE came out instead of Good Vibrations?

[Emily]

But just as a point of clarification - a taped segment to be inserted into a show is pre-taped for a particular show to appear as if it were part of the live show. That's not what Hello Goodbye was. For HG there were three promo films shot and then dispersed to various television programs. It was a promo film in every way the same as Paperback Writer, Rain, Day Tripper, We Can Work It Out, Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane.

CSM - you know way more about The Beatles than I.  

However, in 1964, there was a "taped segment on June of 1964 of The Beatles." It was a stand up Twist and Shout, I Wanna hold Your Hand, and Please, Please Me.

This is acceptable as an "live" appearance, even inserted into a regular program.  Even in 1964.  

But the difference is that the '64 appearance was filmed in the Ed Sullivan theater particularly for Ed Sullivan's show using Ed Sullivan's crew. Hello Goodbye, as explained in the blog post I linked to (eta: and the Wikipedia link from CSM), was filmed as a general promo film.
FdP, it doesn't matter about the Beatles being special. Lots of bands were doing promo films at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_video#1960.E2.80.931973:_Promotional_clips_and_others

[filledeplage]

But just as a point of clarification - a taped segment to be inserted into a show is pre-taped for a particular show to appear as if it were part of the live show. That's not what Hello Goodbye was. For HG there were three promo films shot and then dispersed to various television programs. It was a promo film in every way the same as Paperback Writer, Rain, Day Tripper, We Can Work It Out, Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane.

CSM - you know way more about The Beatles than I. 

However, in 1964, there was a "taped segment on June of 1964 of The Beatles." It was a stand up Twist and Shout, I Wanna hold Your Hand, and Please, Please Me.

This is acceptable as an "live" appearance, even inserted into a regular program.  Even in 1964.   

But the difference is that the '64 appearance was filmed in the Ed Sullivan theater particularly for Ed Sullivan's show using Ed Sullivan's crew. Hello Goodbye, as explained in the blog post I linked to, was filmed as a general promo film.
FdP, it doesn't matter about the Beatles being special. Lots of bands were doing promo films at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_video#1960.E2.80.931973:_Promotional_clips_and_others

Emily - perhaps I am explaining this poorly.  A TV exposure void amidst new bands in the highly competitive music field was almost catastrophic and at a time, when the most media support for Pet Sounds and Smile (or Smiley) were not starting off at the top of the charts.  Keeping your brand out there was part of the job description.

The minutiae is of no consequence as to Ed Sullivan and how he taped his shows. There were other variety shows such as Andy Williams, or Bob Hope, etc.,  The Beach Boys are conspicuous by their absence for an extended period of time.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

That's an altogether different point. We could have a debate over whether it was a good decision not to do TV spots, but the discussion here has been about who made that decision. And the evidence in this case points to The Beach Boys making that decision.

[Emily]

But just as a point of clarification - a taped segment to be inserted into a show is pre-taped for a particular show to appear as if it were part of the live show. That's not what Hello Goodbye was. For HG there were three promo films shot and then dispersed to various television programs. It was a promo film in every way the same as Paperback Writer, Rain, Day Tripper, We Can Work It Out, Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane.

CSM - you know way more about The Beatles than I. 

However, in 1964, there was a "taped segment on June of 1964 of The Beatles." It was a stand up Twist and Shout, I Wanna hold Your Hand, and Please, Please Me.

This is acceptable as an "live" appearance, even inserted into a regular program.  Even in 1964.   

But the difference is that the '64 appearance was filmed in the Ed Sullivan theater particularly for Ed Sullivan's show using Ed Sullivan's crew. Hello Goodbye, as explained in the blog post I linked to, was filmed as a general promo film.
FdP, it doesn't matter about the Beatles being special. Lots of bands were doing promo films at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_video#1960.E2.80.931973:_Promotional_clips_and_others

Emily - perhaps I am explaining this poorly.  A TV exposure void amidst new bands in the highly competitive music field was almost catastrophic and at a time, when the most media support for Pet Sounds and Smile (or Smiley) were not starting off at the top of the charts.  Keeping your brand out there was part of the job description.

The minutiae is of no consequence as to Ed Sullivan and how he taped his shows. There were other variety shows such as Andy Williams, or Bob Hope, etc.,  The Beach Boys are conspicuous by their absence for an extended period of time.

There were some citations above in this thread of their promo videos being aired. I doubt their promos were aired any less than any other bands'. They were on the road - that's what they were doing to keep their brand out there. It's been their preferred method ever since, and seems to be their most successful method. They weren't very successful on TV. They usually come off as a bit dorky and I'm pretty sure I've read that they found some of their TV appearances embarrassing. They didn't have that stage presence that some other artists had. They definitely do their brand better service live.
FdP, you are really speculating and have presented no evidence to support your theory that the label somehow kept them off TV. Believe what you want, but an argument is unconvincing to others without either a clear rationale or evidence, neither of which is present.

[filledeplage]

That's an altogether different point. We could have a debate over whether it was a good decision not to do TV spots, but the discussion here has been about who made that decision. And the evidence in this case points to The Beach Boys making that decision.

Look at the Spring of '66 on the cusp of the new BRI with the release in May of Pet Sounds.  Then the release of Smiley about a year and a half later and into 1967.

It is unfathomable to me that if they were invited or had the media package put together properly, there would have refused TV appearances to promote Pet Sounds.  Would they refuse TV?  I don't think so.  

Even during C50, the TV stand up performances, were integrated into the tour with the release of TWGMTR.  Someone made that happen.  

And, in 1967, with Where the Action is, on wiki, there is an enormously long list of the bands that performed.  I don't think the band thought they were "too good" or "too important" to perform on TV during that time.  

[Emily]

I will add that I agree with you, FdP, on the idea that the Beach Boys suffered from very poor management and messaging at this stage (indeed at most stages). But as CSM said, I just don't think it's clear that the label was responsible.

[filledeplage]

But just as a point of clarification - a taped segment to be inserted into a show is pre-taped for a particular show to appear as if it were part of the live show. That's not what Hello Goodbye was. For HG there were three promo films shot and then dispersed to various television programs. It was a promo film in every way the same as Paperback Writer, Rain, Day Tripper, We Can Work It Out, Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane.

CSM - you know way more about The Beatles than I. 

However, in 1964, there was a "taped segment on June of 1964 of The Beatles." It was a stand up Twist and Shout, I Wanna hold Your Hand, and Please, Please Me.

This is acceptable as an "live" appearance, even inserted into a regular program.  Even in 1964.   

But the difference is that the '64 appearance was filmed in the Ed Sullivan theater particularly for Ed Sullivan's show using Ed Sullivan's crew. Hello Goodbye, as explained in the blog post I linked to, was filmed as a general promo film.
FdP, it doesn't matter about the Beatles being special. Lots of bands were doing promo films at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_video#1960.E2.80.931973:_Promotional_clips_and_others

Emily - perhaps I am explaining this poorly.  A TV exposure void amidst new bands in the highly competitive music field was almost catastrophic and at a time, when the most media support for Pet Sounds and Smile (or Smiley) were not starting off at the top of the charts.  Keeping your brand out there was part of the job description.

The minutiae is of no consequence as to Ed Sullivan and how he taped his shows. There were other variety shows such as Andy Williams, or Bob Hope, etc.,  The Beach Boys are conspicuous by their absence for an extended period of time.

There were some citations above in this thread of their promo videos being aired. I doubt their promos were aired any less than any other bands'. They were on the road - that's what they were doing to keep their brand out there. It's been their preferred method ever since, and seems to be their most successful method. They weren't very successful on TV. They usually come off as a bit dorky and I'm pretty sure I've read that they found some of their TV appearances embarrassing. They didn't have that stage presence that some other artists had. They definitely do their brand better service live.
FdP, you are really speculating and have presented no evidence to support your theory that the label somehow kept them off TV. Believe what you want, but an argument is unconvincing to others without either a clear rationale or evidence, neither of which is present.

The term dorky did not exist.  They looked great.  They were successful on TV, and I don't know where you get that information.  When they were making an appearance, the TV guides would list them as a highlight for the day or week.  The don't do that for losers.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It is unfathomable to me that if they were invited or had the media package put together properly, there would have refused TV appearances to promote Pet Sounds.  Would they refuse TV?  I don't think so.  

Just so I'm clear, then, you are accepting your own conjecture over the historical and factual evidence that exists. Elsewhere you seem to have an issue with conjecture. Why are you in favour of it here, particularly when it contradicts hard evidence?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The term dorky did not exist.  They looked great.

Didn't that Jack Benny appearance offer that same image of The Beach Boys that they were complaining about in 1970 and maybe stuff like that was precisely why they felt the medium of TV (which was really not in keeping with the new hip trends, certainly not in 1966) did not work for them at the time. Like someone on this thread said, bands like Buffalo Springfield were outright refusing to do shows like Johnny Carson because they felt those kinds of shows were lame.

[Emily]

But just as a point of clarification - a taped segment to be inserted into a show is pre-taped for a particular show to appear as if it were part of the live show. That's not what Hello Goodbye was. For HG there were three promo films shot and then dispersed to various television programs. It was a promo film in every way the same as Paperback Writer, Rain, Day Tripper, We Can Work It Out, Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane.

CSM - you know way more about The Beatles than I. 

However, in 1964, there was a "taped segment on June of 1964 of The Beatles." It was a stand up Twist and Shout, I Wanna hold Your Hand, and Please, Please Me.

This is acceptable as an "live" appearance, even inserted into a regular program.  Even in 1964.   

But the difference is that the '64 appearance was filmed in the Ed Sullivan theater particularly for Ed Sullivan's show using Ed Sullivan's crew. Hello Goodbye, as explained in the blog post I linked to, was filmed as a general promo film.
FdP, it doesn't matter about the Beatles being special. Lots of bands were doing promo films at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_video#1960.E2.80.931973:_Promotional_clips_and_others

Emily - perhaps I am explaining this poorly.  A TV exposure void amidst new bands in the highly competitive music field was almost catastrophic and at a time, when the most media support for Pet Sounds and Smile (or Smiley) were not starting off at the top of the charts.  Keeping your brand out there was part of the job description.

The minutiae is of no consequence as to Ed Sullivan and how he taped his shows. There were other variety shows such as Andy Williams, or Bob Hope, etc.,  The Beach Boys are conspicuous by their absence for an extended period of time.

There were some citations above in this thread of their promo videos being aired. I doubt their promos were aired any less than any other bands'. They were on the road - that's what they were doing to keep their brand out there. It's been their preferred method ever since, and seems to be their most successful method. They weren't very successful on TV. They usually come off as a bit dorky and I'm pretty sure I've read that they found some of their TV appearances embarrassing. They didn't have that stage presence that some other artists had. They definitely do their brand better service live.
FdP, you are really speculating and have presented no evidence to support your theory that the label somehow kept them off TV. Believe what you want, but an argument is unconvincing to others without either a clear rationale or evidence, neither of which is present.

The term dorky did not exist.  They looked great.  They were successful on TV, and I don't know where you get that information.  When they were making an appearance, the TV guides would list them as a highlight for the day or week.  The don't do that for losers.

a quick google indicates first use of the word 'dork' with it's current meaning in the '60s. However, I did not quote anyone using the word contemporarily, so it's not relevant. Obviously you and I differ as to their relative dorkiness but that is, of course, opinion. I certainly never said they were 'losers' and never would.
I will look for the interview, but I remember them saying "uncomfortable" probably, referring to lip syncing on TV and one of them particularly mentioning not knowing what to do with their hands when they weren't miming the instruments indicating that it was awkward, which it was. They also didn't do interviews with anything near the charisma of the Beatles and didn't have that 'je ne sais quoi' of Mick Jagger or the dancing of Tina Turner or James Brown. It's opinion but near fact that they simply don't transmit as 'cool' the way a lot of personalities do. And in a few interviews I've seen them acknowledge that.
But they are known for doing great live shows.

[filledeplage]

It is unfathomable to me that if they were invited or had the media package put together properly, there would have refused TV appearances to promote Pet Sounds.  Would they refuse TV?  I don't think so.  

Just so I'm clear, then, you are accepting your own conjecture over the historical and factual evidence that exists. Elsewhere you seem to have an issue with conjecture. Why are you in favour of it here, particularly when it contradicts hard evidence?

It is not conjecture or speculation.  It is a rhetorical question.  Rhetorical questions are asked to make a point rather than elicit an answer.   

[filledeplage]

The term dorky did not exist.  They looked great.

Didn't that Jack Benny appearance offer that same image of The Beach Boys that they were complaining about in 1970 and maybe stuff like that was precisely why they felt the medium of TV (which was really not in keeping with the new hip trends, certainly not in 1966) did not work for them at the time. Like someone on this thread said, bands like Buffalo Springfield were outright refusing to do shows like Johnny Carson because they felt those kinds of shows were lame.

That Jack Benny - Bob Hope with the surfboards was for California Girls.  http://youtu.be/AX1U0wtll10

Listed as November 3 1965 on imdb. 

[Emily]

The term dorky did not exist.  They looked great.

Didn't that Jack Benny appearance offer that same image of The Beach Boys that they were complaining about in 1970 and maybe stuff like that was precisely why they felt the medium of TV (which was really not in keeping with the new hip trends, certainly not in 1966) did not work for them at the time. Like someone on this thread said, bands like Buffalo Springfield were outright refusing to do shows like Johnny Carson because they felt those kinds of shows were lame.

That Jack Benny - Bob Hope with the surfboards was for California Girls.  http://youtu.be/AX1U0wtll10

Listed as November 3 1965 on imdb. 

The point wasn't that it was done '66. It's that it's probably part of why they chose, in '66, to stop doing TV.
And the point made by your rhetorical question, and that you've been making all along, is conjectural. Or maybe not even that, as the evidence available suggests the opposite.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It is unfathomable to me that if they were invited or had the media package put together properly, there would have refused TV appearances to promote Pet Sounds.  Would they refuse TV?  I don't think so.  

Just so I'm clear, then, you are accepting your own conjecture over the historical and factual evidence that exists. Elsewhere you seem to have an issue with conjecture. Why are you in favour of it here, particularly when it contradicts hard evidence?

It is not conjecture or speculation.  It is a rhetorical question.

As Emily suggested above, I wasn't referring to your question.

[filledeplage]

The term dorky did not exist.  They looked great.

Didn't that Jack Benny appearance offer that same image of The Beach Boys that they were complaining about in 1970 and maybe stuff like that was precisely why they felt the medium of TV (which was really not in keeping with the new hip trends, certainly not in 1966) did not work for them at the time. Like someone on this thread said, bands like Buffalo Springfield were outright refusing to do shows like Johnny Carson because they felt those kinds of shows were lame.

That Jack Benny - Bob Hope with the surfboards was for California Girls.  http://youtu.be/AX1U0wtll10

Listed as November 3 1965 on imdb. 

The point wasn't that it was done '66. It's that it's probably part of why they chose, in '66, to stop doing TV.
And the point made by your rhetorical question, and that you've been making all along, is conjectural. Or maybe not even that, as the evidence available suggests the opposite.

Emily - I do not believe that was a conscious decision.  They were disconnecting from Capitol in the Spring/Summer of 1966 just after Pet Sounds was released.

They are on the record, over and over, by the following Spring, uttering dismay for the way the tours were run and what was being promoted.  Those cites are in Rusten and in Badman.

Had Capitol possessed a crystal ball in 1966, think that they would not have promoted the hell out of Pet Sounds instead of releasing Best of 8 weeks later?



 

[Emily]

The term dorky did not exist.  They looked great.

Didn't that Jack Benny appearance offer that same image of The Beach Boys that they were complaining about in 1970 and maybe stuff like that was precisely why they felt the medium of TV (which was really not in keeping with the new hip trends, certainly not in 1966) did not work for them at the time. Like someone on this thread said, bands like Buffalo Springfield were outright refusing to do shows like Johnny Carson because they felt those kinds of shows were lame.

That Jack Benny - Bob Hope with the surfboards was for California Girls.  http://youtu.be/AX1U0wtll10

Listed as November 3 1965 on imdb. 

The point wasn't that it was done '66. It's that it's probably part of why they chose, in '66, to stop doing TV.
And the point made by your rhetorical question, and that you've been making all along, is conjectural. Or maybe not even that, as the evidence available suggests the opposite.

Emily - I do not believe that was a conscious decision.  They were disconnecting from Capitol in the Spring/Summer of 1966 just after Pet Sounds was released.

They are on the record, over and over, by the following Spring, uttering dismay for the way the tours were run and what was being promoted.  Those cites are in Rusten and in Badman.

Had Capitol possessed a crystal ball in 1966, think that they would not have promoted the hell out of Pet Sounds instead of releasing Best of 8 weeks later?



 

The label doesn't run the tour. That's on the band's management.

[filledeplage]

The term dorky did not exist.  They looked great.

Didn't that Jack Benny appearance offer that same image of The Beach Boys that they were complaining about in 1970 and maybe stuff like that was precisely why they felt the medium of TV (which was really not in keeping with the new hip trends, certainly not in 1966) did not work for them at the time. Like someone on this thread said, bands like Buffalo Springfield were outright refusing to do shows like Johnny Carson because they felt those kinds of shows were lame.

That Jack Benny - Bob Hope with the surfboards was for California Girls.  http://youtu.be/AX1U0wtll10

Listed as November 3 1965 on imdb. 

The point wasn't that it was done '66. It's that it's probably part of why they chose, in '66, to stop doing TV.
And the point made by your rhetorical question, and that you've been making all along, is conjectural. Or maybe not even that, as the evidence available suggests the opposite.

Emily - I do not believe that was a conscious decision.  They were disconnecting from Capitol in the Spring/Summer of 1966 just after Pet Sounds was released.

They are on the record, over and over, by the following Spring, uttering dismay for the way the tours were run and what was being promoted.  Those cites are in Rusten and in Badman.

Had Capitol possessed a crystal ball in 1966, think that they would not have promoted the hell out of Pet Sounds instead of releasing Best of 8 weeks later?



 

The label doesn't run the tour. That's on the band's management.

Emily - Perhaps poorly enumerated.  The TIKH Tour (May - 1967) in Europe was an EMI (Capitol) or whatever the structure was at the time, involved venture, IIRC.   I don't have the books at hand but cited them in an earlier post. Post Pet Sounds, Post GV, they had released Then I Kissed Her (from SDSN from 1965.) That it well documented in Rusten/Stebbins and Badman.