"Love to Say Dada" or "All Day" the missing "Air" section? of "The Elements?"

[The Old Master Painter]

If we don't know, we could always speculate. I'm willing to speculate and to come out with theories that, for some, go against the very narrative of SMiLE folklore, but are, by definition valid, since SMiLE is a very uncertain chapter in Beach Boys history. Let's get started:

- In 1978(?), Brian Wilson was asked what the missing "Air" section of The Elements was. He replied that they attempted a piano instrumental in 66/67 to be the "Air" piece.

- "All Day" is a piano instrumental.

I also suspect the lyrics to "Whistle In" were the former lyrics to "All Day" since:

"Remember the day (Day = Sun = Fire)

Remember the night (Night = Moon = Water)

All day long (the title of the "instrumental")"

It's lesson is for us to remember and include The Elements in our daily lives, as a part of us, and to be careful when treating our planet.

I don't believe this theory, this is just a brian-puke I had to write down...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It's a good theory.

[Summertime Blooz]

If we don't know, we could always speculate. I'm willing to speculate and to come out with theories that, for some, go against the very narrative of SMiLE folklore, but are, by definition valid, since SMiLE is a very uncertain chapter in Beach Boys history. Let's get started:

- In 1978(?), Brian Wilson was asked what the missing "Air" section of The Elements was. He replied that they attempted a piano instrumental in 66/67 to be the "Air" piece.

- "All Day" is a piano instrumental.

I also suspect the lyrics to "Whistle In" were the former lyrics to "All Day" since:

Well, a whistle sound is made by Air so maybe there's something to it. Personally, I've used 'Second Day' as my Air element for years now because I think it just fits really well.

My edit of The Elements:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JYwBNIPRAQ

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If we don't know, we could always speculate. I'm willing to speculate and to come out with theories that, for some, go against the very narrative of SMiLE folklore, but are, by definition valid, since SMiLE is a very uncertain chapter in Beach Boys history. Let's get started:

- In 1978(?), Brian Wilson was asked what the missing "Air" section of The Elements was. He replied that they attempted a piano instrumental in 66/67 to be the "Air" piece.

- "All Day" is a piano instrumental.

I also suspect the lyrics to "Whistle In" were the former lyrics to "All Day" since:

"Remember the day (Day = Sun = Fire)

Remember the night (Night = Moon = Water)

All day long (the title of the "instrumental")"

It's lesson is for us to remember and include The Elements in our daily lives, as a part of us, and to be careful when treating our planet.

I don't believe this theory, this is just a brian-puke I had to write down...

Kinda speculative, but interesting. I think the idea of tying the Sun, Moon, and Earth into the Elements could be a cool way to work the astrology angle in even more. Even tho I dont believe Dada is an element anymore, I always was really interested in the idea of the title Second Day, and that being a possible name for the Water or Air section. Its a subtle reference to the Biblical day when God seperated the seas and skies, just as MOLC is a subtle reference to Fire. So...which is it, then tho? Is Whistle In the air...or Dada/SD? And can anyone say whether the WI lyrics would fit with any version of All Day/Dada we know of?

[yonderhillside]

Just realized All Day and Love To Say Dada / Second Day share the same piano motif.

[37!ws]

"Whistle In" also obviously evolved from "Do You Like Worms" -- "Remember the day" => "Wahallaloolay" (or however it's spelled)

[thetojo]

If we don't know, we could always speculate. I'm willing to speculate and to come out with theories that, for some, go against the very narrative of SMiLE folklore, but are, by definition valid, since SMiLE is a very uncertain chapter in Beach Boys history. Let's get started:

- In 1978(?), Brian Wilson was asked what the missing "Air" section of The Elements was. He replied that they attempted a piano instrumental in 66/67 to be the "Air" piece.

- "All Day" is a piano instrumental.

I also suspect the lyrics to "Whistle In" were the former lyrics to "All Day" since:

"Remember the day (Day = Sun = Fire)

Remember the night (Night = Moon = Water)

All day long (the title of the "instrumental")"

It's lesson is for us to remember and include The Elements in our daily lives, as a part of us, and to be careful when treating our planet.

I don't believe this theory, this is just a brian-puke I had to write down...

You could be onto something there - just quoting and adding a link to a previous post I made - a while back! I didn't get a positive reaction, but logic will turn people around to this view in time.

You hadn't read my post perchance?

I am utterly convinced that the Elements was more complete than people think.

Brian said Air was a piano piece. That's Dada - no question in my mind - especially when you hear the Dada with whistling sound that circulated as "Air Dada". Water is "water chant". Fire is obvious. Earth would have to be Barnyard, given that the Elements Suite was later referred to as the "Barnyard Suite".

I'm not saying it's not guesswork to some extent, but I believe that the water lyrics came to Dada after the abandonment  of SMiLE.

As to the correct order "Fire" is listed as part one. If you take the order which old philosophy tells us the elements arise, I think it would be fire then air, then water, then earth.

Another thing, which I thought I'd posted, but may not have - I believe Van Dyke has also said that SMiLE as conceived was to have one track where different titles were linked, that is, no other tracks other than the Elements would be linked to one another [in what we might call these days a gapless album], just The Elements, so if that's true the Barnyard Suite must be The Elements, if there was any doubt about that point.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Another thing, which I thought I'd posted, but may not have - I believe Van Dyke has also said that SMiLE as conceived was to have one track where different titles were linked, that is, no other tracks other than the Elements would be linked to one another [in what we might call these days a gapless album], just The Elements, so if that's true the Barnyard Suite must be The Elements, if there was any doubt about that point.

I can see how you got there, but the above is not quite accurate. As reported some years ago by AGD, VDP told him the SMiLE tracks were intended to be banded (ie. distinct songs, though this doesn't necessarily mean a full two seconds separating them) with one exception - 'The Elements', which was to have cross-faded sections within the track. This is more or less what you say above, but the connection to the 'Barnyard Suite' - which is referenced just the once, in the Priess book: "[It] was going to be four songs—in four short pieces—combined together, but we never finished that one." - seems tenuous.

First of all, VDP (through AGD - ain't acronyms wonderful?) refers particularly to cross-fades. This hardly precludes a 'Barnyard Suite' being a collection of short sections 'combined together' in different ways - for instance, a hard edit from the end of the IIGS 'tape explosion' into another section (like that in the Feb '67 Heroes mix between 'Three score and five' and the 'False Barnyard' coda). Or a quick instrumental or vocal transition, as many early '67 Heroes fragments seem to be (ie. 'Mission Pak'). These are all transitions between instrumental sections, but do not constitute the cross-fading explicitly described by Parks.

Secondly, most Smile tracks consist of separate, modular instrumental recordings, mixed, assembled into a sequence, and then overdubbed with vocals and various sound effects/treatments. So, to a certain extent, almost every song we have a period assembly of is essentially a collection of 'linked tracks', employing a variety of different transitioning devices.

So I'd hesitate before propagating (especially for any newcomers reading these boards) the idea that 'Elements = Barnyard Suite' - as "if there was any doubt about that point". Because, at least on the basis of the argument given in your post above, there very definitely is.  

[thetojo]

Thanks for the criticism - I probably went a bit too far - "over-reached".

Thanks also for the detail in relation to both the AGD/VDP thing and also the quote from the Priess book.

Seriously though, if you mentioned SMiLE then said to someone about a track "[It] was going to be four songs—in four short pieces—combined together, but we never finished that one." - that's screaming out as a description of what we do know about the Elements is it not?

My logic is this:
- you've got someone saying that there is only one track of the twelve that involves cross-fading from one piece to another.;
- none of the other 11 can then cross-fade (although as you say they can be modular, which almost all of Smile was - even Surf's Up);
- we know multiple titles were used by Brian for the SMiLE tracks, sometimes interchangeably - eg. "Cabinessence" "Who Ran The Iron-Horse" "Grand Coulee Dam"
- if you have a piece which is described as being a four-parter - this is something that obviously stands out about the song - it is reasonable, but not certain, that the two descriptions are of the same thing, but it has another name;
- then both cannot form part of the same album, unless they are one and the same track - the VDP quote excludes that possibility - not absolutely, but with a reasonable degree of likelihood.

The Barnyard Suite was referenced in an article from around 1972 (can't remember the exact details) - when the Beach Boys were scheduled to deliver the tapes to Warners. The article is reproduced in Look Listen Vibrate SMiLE from memory. There may or may not be a separate reference to "Elements", I'll have to check that when I get the book in front of me.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hi thetojo - hope I didn't come across as overly critical. I guess my fundamental point is though what you're saying could mean 'The Elements' and 'The Barnyard Suite' are the same thing, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are - not least because we have so little concrete information about either.

Seriously though, if you mentioned SMiLE then said to someone about a track "[It] was going to be four songs—in four short pieces—combined together, but we never finished that one." - that's screaming out as a description of what we do know about the Elements is it not?

Well, yeah, but from what we know about the recording process of 'Cabin Essence' (via Vosse's 'Fusion' article), for instance, starting out as at least two distinct song ideas and recorded as three  separate instrumental parts, you could almost say the same thing about CE, except that it's three sections instead of four. Even the single release of Heroes used salvaged and re-recorded sections from at least two original song sources. Not to say the number of parts isn't relevant, or that I don't see your point, just that the way in which SMiLE was recorded means the distinction between a 'song' as a totality and sequenced individual pieces can become a bit murky where we don't have any period assemblies.

My logic is this:
- if you've got someone saying that there is only one track of the twelve that involves cross-fading from one piece to another.;
- all of the other 11 mustn't cross fade (although as you say they can be modular, which almost all of Smile was - even Surf's Up);
- if you have a piece which is described as being a four-parter - this is something that obviously stands out about the song - it is reasonable, but not certain, that like the two descriptions are of the same thing, but it has another name;
- then both cannot form part of the same album, unless they are one and the same track - the VDP quote excludes that possibility - not absolutely, but with a reasonable degree of likelihood.

To go through these points 'verse by verse':
- Yep, but as I said above you'd need to prove (or at least give some basis for) that 'Barnyard Suite' was intended to feature cross-fades before this becomes relevant. The fact that 'Elements' was to be the only track with cross-fading does not ipso facto mean any other track with multiple sections would have to be cross-faded, as I tried to explain above.
- See above.
- Possible, but see my above comment about CE etc.
- And again, see my points this and the last post.

In short, I can see your process of reasoning here, but I'd argue that your premise is fundamentally flawed - ie. to say that you can't have two tracks of four parts with cross-faded sections on the  album is - in light of VDP's comments - correct, but for the BY=TE thesis to hold water you'd need to demonstrate that 'Barnyard Suite' was indeed going to have cross-faded sections - and not simply another, stand-alone track consisting of several distinct recorded sections linked through various other means. As a number of SMiLE tracks indeed are.

With the information we have, the number of parts intended for either could equally be simply coincidence or - in more high falutin' terms - a false equivalency. Unless, of course, there's info/interviews I'm not aware of.

The Barnyard Suite was referenced in an article from around 1972 (can't remember the exact details) - when the Beach Boys were scheduled to deliver the tapes to Warners. The article is reproduced in Look Listen Vibrate SMiLE from memory.

Ah. In which case, I stand corrected. 'The Child is Father to the Band' (Nolan), maybe?

[soniclovenoize]

Seriously though, if you mentioned SMiLE then said to someone about a track "[It] was going to be four songs—in four short pieces—combined together, but we never finished that one." - that's screaming out as a description of what we do know about the Elements is it not?

It is noteworthy that some here believe that Brian misspoke, that the Barnyard Suite he was referencing was in fact The Elements and he was mistaken or remembered incorrectly. 

I am not of that group who believe that, but i thought it's import to state that many people do. 

[zosobird]

Seriously though, if you mentioned SMiLE then said to someone about a track "[It] was going to be four songs—in four short pieces—combined together, but we never finished that one." - that's screaming out as a description of what we do know about the Elements is it not?

It is noteworthy that some here believe that Brian misspoke, that the Barnyard Suite he was referencing was in fact The Elements and he was mistaken or remembered incorrectly. 

I am not of that group who believe that, but i thought it's import to state that many people do. 

I just want to add that the evidence for Barnyard Suite = Elements Suite is minimal at best. There is much greater evidence the Barnyard Suite = IIGS and i find it odd that the Barnyard/Elements connection is even considered a possibility. That said, no need to justify a "roll your own" mix, just be done with it.

[thetojo]

Loving the input -

Found the reference I was thinking of [page 128 in LLVS revised edition] - I note that it mentions Barnyard, and also separately Mrs O'Leary's Cow and I Love To Say Dada (incorporating Cool Cool Water).

FWIW getting back to the topic, IMO there's a pretty good case for saying I Love To Say Dada may have been intended as "Air", particularly with reference to "part 2 second day" TSS disc 4 track 13.

PS. I always thought (from the 90s I mean) IIGS was probably I Wanna Be Around followed by the Workshop stuff. I just couldn't get past the use of the word AROUND as a play on the shape round - but there you go - then in 2004 for some reason the two were connected.

[soniclovenoize]

FWIW getting back to the topic, IMO there's a pretty good case for saying I Love To Say Dada may have been intended as "Air", particularly with reference to "part 2 second day" TSS disc 4 track 13.

What do you mean?

[thetojo]

FWIW getting back to the topic, IMO there's a pretty good case for saying I Love To Say Dada may have been intended as "Air", particularly with reference to "part 2 second day" TSS disc 4 track 13.

What do you mean?

The added whistling adds an airyness!

[soniclovenoize]

FWIW getting back to the topic, IMO there's a pretty good case for saying I Love To Say Dada may have been intended as "Air", particularly with reference to "part 2 second day" TSS disc 4 track 13.

What do you mean?

The added whistling adds an airyness!

It's also vaguely watery as well...   

[The Old Master Painter]

Just a look back at what happened in December 1966-May 1967:

I guess in pre-December 1966, there was JUST The Elements, since I'm In Great Shape and Barnyard where originally part of the "original" Heroes and Villains (not the crazy "Pt. 2" vocal chants that came after December 1966). The handwritten track list proves this: I'm In Great Shape is listed as a separate track from Heroes, and, although unrelated but interesting to note, Vega-Tables is taken apart from The Elements for a supposed single release(?), which contradicts the Feank Holmes' notation that Vega-Tables is part of The Elements, which I supposed was handed in before the December deadline.

 Knowing this, a pre-December 1966 SMiLE, in theory, should have been much easier to complete as a 12 tracked album, but that wasn't possible after December, because Brian felt the pressure (obviously) to get Heroes out as a single, and then he eventually went on to complete the fable Pt. 1 and 2, which he assembled (supposedly) master tapes for supposedly around mid-February. SMiLE, in my opinion, was still in good shape up till this point in time.

 I think that March-April was truly the nail in the coffin for SMiLE, since even though Brian had said in an interview he completed a version of Heroes in February, he was still recording more parts to that song, and then Brian started recording Vega-Tables to salvage fresh hope for a single, completely making those few months spent for Heroes usless. It was supposedly around then Van Dyke left, which was truly responsible for 90% of the project's misguided incompletion. Things didn't go any better when Paul McCartney visited Brian around the Vega-Tables sessions and played some Sgt. Pepper songs for him. That alone killed the SMiLE, and Brian's hopes for competing against The Beatles.

In May 2nd (?), it was announced by Derek Taylor SMiLE was no more.

It is still a wonder to me why Brian was recording "Love to Say Dada" around then. Any opinions? Where all those post-February recordings for Heroes where actually dedicated to The Elements? Think about it:

Chimes/Whistle Intro= Opening to Mrs. O' Leary's Fire

All Day = Love to Say Dada = Air = Water?

Sleep a Lot = Vega-Tables

An *if* Brian was recording LSD after the May 2nd announcement for an Elements suite, could this explain why Brian went to record the famous "Water Chant" and the "Surf's Up" Fall 1967 demo. Supposedly Capitol did want a 10-track SMiLE album out, without Heroes or Veggies. Could this be why Brian was *still* trying to complete SMiLE in fall 1967?

[thetojo]

You've reminded me of the Veggies demo master number / IIGS connection (which I don't think I imagined) - - which just confuses things even more!

[soniclovenoize]

It is still a wonder to me why Brian was recording "Love to Say Dada" around then. Any opinions? Where all those post-February recordings for Heroes where actually dedicated to The Elements? Think about it:

Chimes/Whistle Intro= Opening to Mrs. O' Leary's Fire

All Day = Love to Say Dada = Air = Water?

Sleep a Lot = Vega-Tables

An interesting observation.  But if that was really the case, why not slate them as The Elements (as Mrs O'Leary's Cow was)?  Why slate Chimes as Heroes and Villains intro?  Why slate All Day as Love to Say Dada?  Or it's just coincidence that the last remaining songs were (possibly) associated with The Elements (possibly because The Elements as a concept died in December and these were just segments gutted from it (Chimes, at the very least).  

I'm still not buying All Day = Air.  
When it was called "All Day", it was simply a segment of H&V that would have featured spoken word portions in those breaks (which I believe was the only manifestation of the "comedy" aspect of SMiLE, imo, which was even further reduced to "You're Under Arrest!").  Then it eventually became it's own entity in March and was about a baby (hence the term "dada").  Then by June it had started to become CooL Cool Water...  So was All Day an unfinished piano piece?  not really, it was finished as Cool Cool Water!  If anything, All Day is a contender for the Water Element since it eventually became a song about water, but I will be the first to admit that is wishful thinking and there's no direct evidence of it.

Also I think the "all day" lyric in Whistle In is just coincidence, and a stretch at best.  Sorry.

What I think is really interesting is a theory guitarfool and I mentioned (independently, I swear!) in the other thread... what if the "unfinished piano piece" was the fade to Wind Chimes?  That version was never finished and scrapped for a re-record for Smiley Smile, and Vosse really built that segment up as a great unrealized piece.  Again, no direct evidence, but an interesting thought.  

Also an interesting thought I believe Mujan mentioned in the same thread, that a number of vocal and chant pieces were recorded during the "Psychedelic Sounds" sessions that could reflect an element (Veggie chant for Earth, Water chant for Water, breathing for Air).  What if The Elements was, at one point, entirely a spoken word suite?  

One final 'What If'...  We learned that Vegetables was implicitly identified as the Earth section, right?  The April Assembly tape is lacking the Fade... What if the Vege-Tables Fade was meant for The Elements but the rest was meant for the song Vege-Tables?  

[The Old Master Painter]

It is still a wonder to me why Brian was recording "Love to Say Dada" around then. Any opinions? Where all those post-February recordings for Heroes where actually dedicated to The Elements? Think about it:

Chimes/Whistle Intro= Opening to Mrs. O' Leary's Fire

All Day = Love to Say Dada = Air = Water?

Sleep a Lot = Vega-Tables

An interesting observation.  But if that was really the case, why not slate them as The Elements (as Mrs O'Leary's Cow was)?  Why slate Chimes as Heroes and Villains intro?  Why slate All Day as Love to Say Dada?  Or it's just coincidence that the last remaining songs were (possibly) associated with The Elements (possibly because The Elements as a concept died in December and these were just segments gutted from it (Chimes, at the very least).  

I'm still not buying All Day = Air.  
When it was called "All Day", it was simply a segment of H&V that would have featured spoken word portions in those breaks (which I believe was the only manifestation of the "comedy" aspect of SMiLE, imo, which was even further reduced to "You're Under Arrest!").  Then it eventually became it's own entity in March and was about a baby (hence the term "dada").  Then by June it had started to become CooL Cool Water...  So was All Day an unfinished piano piece?  not really, it was finished as Cool Cool Water!  If anything, All Day is a contender for the Water Element since it eventually became a song about water, but I will be the first to admit that is wishful thinking and there's no direct evidence of it.

Also I think the "all day" lyric in Whistle In is just coincidence, and a stretch at best.  Sorry.

What I think is really interesting is a theory guitarfool and I mentioned (independently, I swear!) in the other thread... what if the "unfinished piano piece" was the fade to Wind Chimes?  That version was never finished and scrapped for a re-record for Smiley Smile, and Vosse really built that segment up as a great unrealized piece.  Again, no direct evidence, but an interesting thought.  

Also an interesting thought I believe Mujan mentioned in the same thread, that a number of vocal and chant pieces were recorded during the "Psychedelic Sounds" sessions that could reflect an element (Veggie chant for Earth, Water chant for Water, breathing for Air).  What if The Elements was, at one point, entirely a spoken word suite?  

One final 'What If'...  We learned that Vegetables was implicitly identified as the Earth section, right?  The April Assembly tape is lacking the Fade... What if the Vege-Tables Fade was meant for The Elements but the rest was meant for the song Vege-Tables?  

Early on, when creating SMiLE mix, this used to be my Elements:

Vega-Tables Fade: Earth

Wind Chimes Piano Solo: Air

Mrs. O' Leary's Fire: Fire

Love to Say Dada: Water.

To me, it just didn't sound right, and more of an edit of left out material from Veggies and Chimes. Fire and LSD were the only ones that made sense to be together.

For my new mix, however, I used the Psycodelic Sounds boot to help re-creating a comedical Elements suite:

Fire is Pt. 1 of the Elements Suite, as intended in 1966

Next is Water Chant with 1966 water sounds found of Bob Gordon's Real Trip

And air starts from a segment of the "Torture" skit, and then starts of with bits of hte Smog Rant, and in the background is the breathing skit and whispering wind sounds.

Earth is cornucopia version of Veggies with a but of the comedy arguments.

[jiggy22]

It is still a wonder to me why Brian was recording "Love to Say Dada" around then. Any opinions? Where all those post-February recordings for Heroes where actually dedicated to The Elements?

By May of 67, Brian wanted absolutely nothing to do with SMiLE. It was practically dead to him, aside from the occasional meddling around with the already recorded pieces in the studio, before he got sick of hearing the same fragments over and over again. Not to mention the new album by the Beatles was weeks away from release. Maybe the recording of LTSD was a way for Brian to get his mind off of SMiLE? Or maybe he was already moving on to ideas for Smiley Smile? The first version of Cool Cool Water was recorded in early-June, not even a month after Dada was recorded, and bears an almost identical melody to LTSD. I personally think of the song as much for of a Smiley Smile song than a SMiLE song. I have my own custom mix of Cool Cool Water on Smiley Smile, it kinda loosely follows this format:

1). Cool Cool Water (1st attempt, June 67)
2). Water Chant (Featuring wave crashing noises from the Sunflower version)
3). Love to Say Dada (2 version with bird-like noises)
4). Final wave crash from Sunflower version. A brief moment of silence before the first piano demo of CCW fades in and quickly fades out.

I think it sounds a lot better on Smiley Smile than as In Blue Hawaii or whatever connection it has as a Smile song. I can post my version on Youtube or whatever if anyone's interested in hearing it!

[Manfred]

Somebody help me please - where is "All day" to find ? I´m sure I got it, but I don´t remember where.

[zosobird]

Somebody help me please - where is "All day" to find ? I´m sure I got it, but I don´t remember where.

Smile Sessions box set, disc 2, track 17:
Heroes And Villains: All Day   2:20

[Manfred]

Fine, thanks.

[yonderhillside]

For sure jiggy, I'd like to hear your mix. I feel about the same way about it being a better fit for an album like Smiley Smile or Wild Honey, and more controversially, Vega-Tables as well. Though I do concur a Second Day title would be a nice little biblical pun for the Air element.