What did Mike + the other Boys think of Jack Rieley's lyrics?

[CenturyDeprived]

I love Jack's lyrics, though they are perhaps even more esoteric and "out there" than VDP's.

Mike, being the guy who seemed to most have issues with unusual, atypical lyrics, I would think would have not particularly cared for them... is there any evidence of Mike's or the other Boys' opinions on Jack's lyrics one way or the other?  They don't scream "commercial" either, or have any particularly "relatable" boy/girl themes.

Was Mike just not in an empowered position during this early 70s period to voice significant displeasure or dissent, was his opinion simply quashed by Carl, or was Mike just more open-minded at this time?

[Moon Dawg]

   Carl on at least one occasion apologized to the audience for the lyrics to "Feel Flows" before playing it in concert, circa 1974.

[NateRuvin]

I think Feel Flows has great lyrics. Sure, they don't make such sense, but they sound beautiful.

[Cyncie]

I always wondered that myself. I mean, Feel Flows is as far out there and psychedelic as anything from SMiLE, but somehow didn't get the same "drug induced" negativity from those who didn't "partake."

[CenturyDeprived]

I always wondered that myself. I mean, Feel Flows is as far out there and psychedelic as anything from SMiLE, but somehow didn't get the same "drug induced" negativity from those who didn't "partake."

Exactly… It's really strange and contradictory, but the only thing I can think of is that by that point in time, Mike was either more willing to go along with everything, or was in no political position to make as big of a stink as he did years earlier, and/or Jack and Carl could just tolerate dealing with potential pushback (if there was any?) more than Van and Brian could. I suppose Jack was far more respected by the entire band in general, relatively-speaking… Or perhaps a combination of all of those things.

 For that matter, I wonder if Van inspired Jack's lyrics? To me, there seems to be a pretty direct correlation between the two men's lyrics and styles, even though they are different.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I suppose Jack was far more respected by the entire band in general, relatively-speaking… Or perhaps a combination of all of those things.

Or maybe Brian had Jack's back...

[elnombre]

  Carl on at least one occasion apologized to the audience for the lyrics to "Feel Flows" before playing it in concert, circa 1974.

That's kind of sad to hear. It's a great song.

[filledeplage]

I love Jack's lyrics, though they are perhaps even more esoteric and "out there" than VDP's.

Mike, being the guy who seemed to most have issues with unusual, atypical lyrics, I would think would have not particularly cared for them... is there any evidence of Mike's or the other Boys' opinions on Jack's lyrics one way or the other?  They don't scream "commercial" either, or have any particularly "relatable" boy/girl themes.

Was Mike just not in an empowered position during this early 70s period to voice significant displeasure or dissent, was his opinion simply quashed by Carl, or was Mike just more open-minded at this time?

It is an interesting topic, but apart from asking them directly, we can comment as to how we feel about them. 

First, I had to look up what "esoteric" means...esoteric...from Merriam-Webster..." Only taught or understood by members of a special group, hard to understand, limited to a small number of people...eg. a body of esoteric legal doctrine, (Justice Benjamin Cardozo) requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group..."

Maybe that is (esoteric) Parks, (Smile) but not Reiley.

Reiley did more concrete, somewhat consciouness-raising, but understandable topics such as colonialism, with The Trader, but anyone with even an 8th grade education, who understood the concept of immigration or slavery, and basic concepts of predatory nations, more universal in nature, could understand this concept. Funky Pretty, not difficult to understand; young people were often into theirs' and others' astrological signs.  Steamboat is sort of concrete. 

What I don't know is how much of Sail on Sailor's lyrics is Reiley's contribution? 

[Cam Mott]

I suppose Jack was far more respected by the entire band in general, relatively-speaking… Or perhaps a combination of all of those things.

Or maybe Brian had Jack's back...

I think that is probably it.  Brian was reported as "clashing" with VDP but I have not heard of any clashing of Brian with Jack (or did I forget it?).

[marcella27]

  Carl on at least one occasion apologized to the audience for the lyrics to "Feel Flows" before playing it in concert, circa 1974.

That's kind of sad to hear. It's a great song.

I find it funny and rather endearing.  Yes, it's a great, great song, but the lyrics are really out there.  Does anyone have any more details about what Carl actually said?   

[Autotune]

I suppose Jack was far more respected by the entire band in general, relatively-speaking… Or perhaps a combination of all of those things.

Or maybe Brian had Jack's back...

I think that is probably it.  Brian was reported as "clashing" with VDP but I have not heard of any clashing of Brian with Jack (or did I forget it?).

According to Leaf, Brian was the one who did not trust Jack right away.

[The Cincinnati Kid]

  Carl on at least one occasion apologized to the audience for the lyrics to "Feel Flows" before playing it in concert, circa 1974.

I find it odd that he would sing the song at all if he felt he had to apologize for the lyrics. 

[bgas]

  Carl on at least one occasion apologized to the audience for the lyrics to "Feel Flows" before playing it in concert, circa 1974.

I find it odd that he would sing the song at all if he felt he had to apologize for the lyrics. 

OH, those crazy Beach Boys!!  You just never know what they'll do...

[Mr. Tiger]

The thing about Mike is that he's always commercially minded. The counterculture was in full swing (and probably reaching its zenith) by 1971. It was, paradoxically, a rather "safe" route to go by this time, hence the acquiescence to Rieley's new direction and making Surf's Up the centerpiece of the new album, etc. This new image made business sense (for now).

1966 was very different, only two years post "I Get Around". Brian (or VDP to be more specific) was ahead of the curve and in Mike's mind, taking enormous risks with the "brand" (although that wasn't the terminology back then). A completely different situation.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Who fired Jack Rieley?

[Doo Dah]

RE: the lyrics and their acceptance, Stephen Desper would probably know. He tracked 'em.

One of the revelations of the SOT studio boots is all the dialogue between takes. Gave a great birds eye view in how the guys worked. When they were all wood shedding at Bellagio, I'm sure there was some tomfoolery goin' on. Whether that ever turned into rebellion towards Jack's approach, we can only conjecture. Bruce maybe. Hell, he split the scene man.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I think I read somewhere that Jack Reiley said Feel Flows was about masterbation. So it could be that Carl loved the music and a lot of Jack's poetic lyrics. But apologized for the subject matter of Feel Flows Also, Mike had talked about Feel Flows when either Songs of Summer or Warmth of the Sun came out a few years ago. His take on Feel Flows seemed positive. But then again, he is a positive thinker!

[Smilin Ed H]

I suppose Jack was far more respected by the entire band in general, relatively-speaking… Or perhaps a combination of all of those things.

Or maybe Brian had Jack's back...

I think that is probably it.  Brian was reported as "clashing" with VDP but I have not heard of any clashing of Brian with Jack (or did I forget it?).

Perhaps at this point, the big Boy wasn't up to clashing with Jack.

Curious about the thread's title. 'Mike + the other Boys'. Who are the other Boys? All of them? Why not just ask what the Boys thought of the lyrics? I imagine, despite Jack moaning about Mike and Al, that they thought they were pretty good and went along with them. Mike's best solo song is Big Sur (either version); Al's best is Lookin' at Tomorrow and they both clearly tried to get in the groove with Cal Saga - and let's not  forget Mike's excellent work with Charles Lloyd from around this time. Was he just being opportunistic? Who knows? It works though and it remains their (that is, the whole band) last really creative period.

[Andrew G. Doe]

For all its other shortcomings, the Gaines book introduced the delightful concept of Brian's Best New Friend. Jack was but the latest.

[Gerry]

Lets not forget that Rieley was also their manager at this time and was having some success in how he was presenting the band.He was probably the perfect person to be running the show in the early '70's.

[clack]

The thing about Mike is that he's always commercially minded. The counterculture was in full swing (and probably reaching its zenith) by 1971. It was, paradoxically, a rather "safe" route to go by this time, hence the acquiescence to Rieley's new direction and making Surf's Up the centerpiece of the new album, etc. This new image made business sense (for now).

1966 was very different, only two years post "I Get Around". Brian (or VDP to be more specific) was ahead of the curve and in Mike's mind, taking enormous risks with the "brand" (although that wasn't the terminology back then). A completely different situation.

The "counterculture" was the mainstream in music by 1971. Also, by then Mike wasn't as reliant on Brian -- he could now generate songs on his own, or write with Al. (I think that a large part of Mike's objection to VDP 's lyrics was the feeling that Mike should be co-writing these songs, and not some fancy-pants outsider).

And people should give a listen to MIU, the next major occasion when Mike is writing extensively with Brian. Regardless of their quality or lack thereof, Mike's lyrics for that lp are quite ambitious, and in fact not unlike Rieley's.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

The thing about Mike is that he's always commercially minded. The counterculture was in full swing (and probably reaching its zenith) by 1971. It was, paradoxically, a rather "safe" route to go by this time, hence the acquiescence to Rieley's new direction and making Surf's Up the centerpiece of the new album, etc. This new image made business sense (for now).

1966 was very different, only two years post "I Get Around". Brian (or VDP to be more specific) was ahead of the curve and in Mike's mind, taking enormous risks with the "brand" (although that wasn't the terminology back then). A completely different situation.

The "counterculture" was the mainstream in music by 1971. Also, by then Mike wasn't as reliant on Brian -- he could now generate songs on his own, or write with Al. (I think that a large part of Mike's objection to VDP 's lyrics was the feeling that Mike should be co-writing these songs, and not some fancy-pants outsider).

And people should give a listen to MIU, the next major occasion when Mike is writing extensively with Brian. Regardless of their quality or lack thereof, Mike's lyrics for that lp are quite ambitious, and in fact not unlike Rieley's.

  I'm not getting how myKe's lyrics on MIU can possibly be akin to Jack's. Ambitious should be replaced by banal if anything. As far as calling VDP a "fancy pants outsider", I think we all know who wore them in the family. And honestly, luHv was paranoid of Asher, VDP, Rieley, and Thomas primarily because they all far exceeded his stuff.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Jack Reiley was also Brian Wilson's collaborator. If you make a list, it would show that they did some pretty good stuff together. I wonder if Brian stood up for Jack - not as a manager but as a collaborator - when Jack was being shown the door? Anybody know?

[Smilin Ed H]

The thing about Mike is that he's always commercially minded. The counterculture was in full swing (and probably reaching its zenith) by 1971. It was, paradoxically, a rather "safe" route to go by this time, hence the acquiescence to Rieley's new direction and making Surf's Up the centerpiece of the new album, etc. This new image made business sense (for now).

1966 was very different, only two years post "I Get Around". Brian (or VDP to be more specific) was ahead of the curve and in Mike's mind, taking enormous risks with the "brand" (although that wasn't the terminology back then). A completely different situation.

The "counterculture" was the mainstream in music by 1971. Also, by then Mike wasn't as reliant on Brian -- he could now generate songs on his own, or write with Al. (I think that a large part of Mike's objection to VDP 's lyrics was the feeling that Mike should be co-writing these songs, and not some fancy-pants outsider).

And people should give a listen to MIU, the next major occasion when Mike is writing extensively with Brian. Regardless of their quality or lack thereof, Mike's lyrics for that lp are quite ambitious, and in fact not unlike Rieley's.

  I'm not getting how myKe's lyrics on MIU can possibly be akin to Jack's. Ambitious should be replaced by banal if anything. As far as calling VDP a "fancy pants outsider", I think we all know who wore them in the family. And honestly, luHv was paranoid of Asher, VDP, Rieley, and Thomas primarily because they all far exceeded his stuff.

It's interesting to note how dismissive Mike AND Dennis were when Bruce left - of course, he contributed to CATP and was back singing on Holland in no time!

[Ian]

As I noted in the concert book, jack was still managing the band as late as summer 1973 by which point Brian was beginning his hibernation and the love brothers were gaining control of the band.  With Brian gone and al leaning in mike's direction, the wilsons lost control and rieley was soon gone. Didn't help that he decided to long distance manage the band from holland