Why do you hate Mike Love?

[NHC]

Good grief. The questions just get sillier and sillier. You're "writing an article"? And this is the topic you chose? What's next - "why do you love Brian"? "Why are you indifferent to Al"? What a waste of time.

[HeyJude]

Good post MaryUSA. I don't know why it's the done thing on here to criticise the band we all love. We love them enough to sign up to be members of this forum so we can speak to like minded people. Yes there are always going to be some opinions on events that happened away from the music but come on, the music is by far the most important thing here and all we are doing is tarnishing the enjoyment of that.

Very few of us know the band members personally. Some who comment haven't seen either party live for years. So really, it's best to just talk about what you KNOW rather than what you think you know.

Apart from hard numbers (what date a song was recorded, etc.), there is little in the way of fact about any of this. The standard for discussion shouldn’t just be “it’s about the music.” Frankly, while it eventually blows up and gets too inflammatory, an actual *thoughtful* discussion about the perception of a band member is FAR more interesting to me than a thread about “favorite beards” or the millionth “fantasy track listings” thread. I’m all for all of these threads existing, mind you.

An occasional reminder to not be incessantly negative about something we ostensibly love so much is needed. But fans that are so non-analytical about the band to the point of never observing anything that even passively reflects negatively on a band member is a type of fan that probably isn’t going to have much to add to a message board beyond naming your favorite song or album, or asking Brian what his favorite pizza toppings are. I’m glad to have even those types of non-analytical fans around. It’s all good. But someone who wants to pick apart something a band member says shouldn’t be shamed or minimized, so long as it stays thoughtful and respectful. As I’ve often said, there are only a very small handful of people on this board that are truly trolls who seem to actually *hate* Mike, and only a few people who go to comic lengths to parse what he says so that he’s never wrong about anything.

The rest, the vast majority on this board, are thoughtful and know their s**t about this band, both about the music itself and the actual members of the band and what they say.

I also don’t believe being analytical and even criticizing these guys diminishes enjoyment of the music. For me, anyway. I can read an interview with Mike and feel like he comes across very poorly, and still go listen to his work on Beach Boys records and enjoy it. I can handle that dichotomy, stuff like the fact that while Mike didn’t “kill” “Smile”, he wasn’t its number one supporter, yet I can still listen to him kick ass singing the parts on those very same recordings. Same with C50. Mike himself has subsequently told us numerous things he *didn’t* like about the reunion album and tour, but I can still listen to that stuff and hear where Mike is a key component. He was literally the hero of C50, and then went on to tear it down. *That’s* what this band does, often. It’s nuts. 

[HeyJude]

Good grief. The questions just get sillier and sillier. You're "writing an article"? And this is the topic you chose? What's next - "why do you love Brian"? "Why are you indifferent to Al"? What a waste of time.

Did anyone every write the detailed follow-up article on Brian’s favorite pizza?   

[Pacific Ocean Blue]

I'll bet a donut that if Dennis had given that same speech this board would be falling all over itself praising Dennis for the balls to give it.

Yep there it is, the token "compare Mike to Dennis" or vice versa in a Mike love thread!

My donut bet still stands and is relevant to the question of the OP and not really about Dennis.

You got a point - "Elton John - Eat your heart out!" Dennis in Knebworth...

Yes because Dennis sounded like he was being serious when he said it huh?

[drbeachboy]

Mike's HOF speech was not some well thought out masterpiece to show the R and R world how important the BB were. It was a guy having way too much to drink and shooting his mouth off. We all have probably been there ourselves or been witness to someone else doing it.  When people try to defend it, it is an example of how this board has too many extremists.

But isn't that what Rock and Rollers are supposed to do? Be drunk, high, talk smack, be obnoxious, etc.? Had what Mike said came out of the mouth of Keith Richards, no one would bat an eye.

[KDS]

Mike's HOF speech was not some well thought out masterpiece to show the R and R world how important the BB were. It was a guy having way too much to drink and shooting his mouth off. We all have probably been there ourselves or been witness to someone else doing it.  When people try to defend it, it is an example of how this board has too many extremists.

But isn't that what Rock and Rollers are supposed to do? Be drunk, high, talk smack, be obnoxious, etc.? Had what Mike said came out of the mouth of Keith Richards, no one would bat an eye.

Good point.  Just the other day, Keith Richards slammed the Sgt. Pepper's album.  And the reaction was "Keith being Keith." 

[ontor pertawst]

I'm pretty sure the definition of rock n' roll doesn't mean humiliate yourself in front of the world at an awards ceremony talking rubbish. But maybe Jerry Lee pioneered it or something, I haven't read the latest book.

[drbeachboy]

I'm pretty sure the definition of rock n' roll doesn't mean humiliate yourself in front of the world at an awards ceremony talking rubbish. But maybe Jerry Lee pioneered it or something, I haven't read the latest book.

Has Mike ever claimed that he was humiliated or are you just standing in for him and taking the hit?

[ontor pertawst]

One look at the rest of the band's faces during that closes the "is this humiliating" case, chief. I'm not going to sit here trying to work out if Mike Love ever felt ashamed about anything in his life, kind of immaterial... I've read a good chunk of his interviews: I doubt it. Maybe he just can't express shame or ever apologize in public but sits around moping in his hotel suite after shows worrying about it. Who the hell knows! I just figure it was a shameful, pathetic display and nothing to brag about.

[HeyJude]

One look at the rest of the band's faces during that closes the "is this humiliating" case, chief. I'm not going to sit here trying to work out if Mike Love ever felt ashamed about anything in his life, kind of immaterial... I've read a good chunk of his interviews: I doubt it. Maybe he just can't express shame or ever apologize in public but sits around moping in his hotel suite after shows worrying about it. Who the hell knows! I just figure it was a shameful, pathetic display and nothing to brag about.

Here’s the portion of Al’s 2000 Goldmine interview where he discusses Mike’s speech:

Let's go back to the Beach Boys' induction into the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame. It was a bittersweet night. It was an amazing honor that was lessened by Love's bizarre speech. What are your memories of that evening?

It was one of the early inductions. It was such a monumental event because of the magnitude of the stars that were there. It made us feel almost humbled by it. It was the Beatles, Bob Dylan, The Surpremes, The Drifters who were inducted. So many great stars. John Fogerty was there, Mick Jagger, Jeff Beck, Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, who inducted us, Billy Joel, Paul Simon. The stage was so jammed when we did the jam session at the end that I didn't even run into Paul Simon. It was awesome to be inducted. It was a mixed pleasure. Brian opened up with a speech of his own, written by his surrogate father, Gene Landy. The nutty professor, Gene Landy, who ended up writing a book with Brian. He scripted everything Brian did and said, so it was a little bit unusual and stilted. There were words there that Brian never uses in his speech. I could tell that. Then Mike was just dying to get to the microphone. As we were leaving the stage it seemed as if - Carl was trying to get us off the stage so the next artist could get inducted. Bob Dylan was waiting in the wings. Mike just drifted back to the microphone telling everybody how f***ed it was that people that were still living weren't there, like McCartney. I'm not really sure what to this day he was trying to accomplish other then maybe the politics of the record business were not to his liking. But this was not an event to discuss the politics of the record business. That's a discussion you have at another time.

Were you, Carl and Brian embarrassed or just plain angry by his speech?

Of course, both. I remember meeting Dylan backstage and Bob saying, "What's going on?" [laughs] He said, "I'm sure glad he didn't mention me." [laughs]

When you returned to your table, did you say anything to Mike about his wacky speech?

He was sitting next to Muhammad [Ali] so I didn't want to start anything. [laughs] Just kidding. But I immediately went over to George [Harrison] and Ringo and I said, "Geez, guys, I really want to apologize for that speech. My partner's not feeling too well." I said something to that effect. [laughs] They put their heads on my shoulder. That was really touching. When I was leaning down between them Ringo just kind of came over and put his head next to mine. He said, "Oh that's okay, we love you guys." George did the same thing. They were really nice.

[drbeachboy]

One look at the rest of the band's faces during that closes the "is this humiliating" case, chief. I'm not going to sit here trying to work out if Mike Love ever felt ashamed about anything in his life, kind of immaterial... I've read a good chunk of his interviews: I doubt it. Maybe he just can't express shame or ever apologize in public but sits around moping in his hotel suite after shows worrying about it. Who the hell knows! I just figure it was a shameful, pathetic display and nothing to brag about.

What do you mean "work out"? You said that he was humiliated, but I have never read anything where Mike ever said that he was either humiliated or embarrassed by his remarks. Sure, maybe everyone else was, but I don't think Mike feels that way about the speech. He may have been drunk that night, but that may have been what was needed for him to let out how he really felt.

[filledeplage]

I'll bet a donut that if Dennis had given that same speech this board would be falling all over itself praising Dennis for the balls to give it.

Yep there it is, the token "compare Mike to Dennis" or vice versa in a Mike love thread!

My donut bet still stands and is relevant to the question of the OP and not really about Dennis.

You got a point - "Elton John - Eat your heart out!" Dennis in Knebworth...

Yes because Dennis sounded like he was being serious when he said it huh?

Had Mike said it, someone might have thought it was a challenge to a "duel at dawn."  

(Especially on this board.)

[KDS]

I think George also said something to the effect of "I guess he didn't listen to the Maharishi." 

[ontor pertawst]

It's such a weak point. "Yeah, if Ernest Borgine said it... you'd all applaud it!" "If William Bendix advocated yogic flying and talked sh*t about his cousins for decades, you'd be on his side!" yeah, well... those other guys DIDN'T say these things or do these dopey things. Mike Love did. Spinning hypotheticals you can never prove and don't matter in the least still doesn't actually deflect the fact that Love does some dickish stuff now and again, like clockwork.

Instead it comes off like you folks are resentful on Mike's behalf... about what, exactly? That a troubled, beloved drummer who died decades ago got a "free pass" somehow. As if he (and his family) didn't pay fucking DEARLY for his mistakes.

[KDS]

I don't think people are resentful in Mike Love's defense. 

I think it's just a tired old topic.   

Wasn't spring great?  We have a new BW record, a movie, and a tour to discuss.  Now, with not as much to talk about, it's back to the usual somebody says something bad about Mike, somebody defends Mike, OP accuses Mike defender of being "on payroll" yada yada yada. 

[ontor pertawst]

Fantastic, bump those threads and talk about them there. It's a great year for BW for sure, but that would just rub salt in the wounds if this is for an article on why some people hate Mike Love. I see IainLee reading this thread, so maybe he'll take you up on it and put in a paragraph about what a fantastic trifecta Brian Wilson pulled off in 2015.

 I'm sure that'll help make the article go down smooth here and lead to a 21 page response thread about it!

[filledeplage]

It's such a weak point. "Yeah, if Ernest Borgine said it... you'd all applaud it!" "If William Bendix advocated yogic flying and talked sh*t about his cousins for decades, you'd be on his side!" yeah, well... those other guys DIDN'T say these things or do these dopey things. Mike Love did. Spinning hypotheticals you can never prove and don't matter in the least still doesn't actually deflect the fact that Love does some dickish stuff now and again, like clockwork.

Instead it comes off like you folks are resentful on Mike's behalf... about what, exactly? That a troubled, beloved drummer who died decades ago got a "free pass" somehow. As if he (and his family) didn't pay fucking DEARLY for his mistakes.

Ontor - it's not exactly a "free pass" for Dennis who was arguably the most popular BB. Bar none. That cover of 72/3 Concert is the thousand words. Imagine sitting in a seat waiting for the BB's with a ticket you bought to see Dennis Wilson, play the drums and sing some lead or two.  Imagine that he was so drunk that he had to be literally carried off the stage.  Sadly I saw that in the late 70's.  

This isn't just compassion some fans might feel, but that they paid for a performance and Dennis didn't perform.  Not everyone is that understanding.  

This is not unlike a plumber you call to fix your sink...You are paying value for something. And not getting it.  That sounds extreme but it was an extreme situation.  I once worked in a school where an alcoholic teacher had a fifth grade class.  She was beloved and when sober on her game.  And the kids loved her.  But, she had a problem that took her away from those kids.

And, rather than fire her, the school needed to hire a substitute to cover that class when this teacher was incapacitated.  Same for Dennis.  They had to keep a back up drummer ready.  He was not reliable and all the compassion and love in the world doesn't fix that.  When he was good and sober, he was just the greatest.  When he was off the rails, the show still  needed to go on.   Who paid? We all paid.  Watching Dennis in that diminished capacity was painful for his fans.  

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

It's such a weak point. "Yeah, if Ernest Borgine said it... you'd all applaud it!" "If William Bendix advocated yogic flying and talked sh*t about his cousins for decades, you'd be on his side!" yeah, well... those other guys DIDN'T say these things or do these dopey things. Mike Love did. Spinning hypotheticals you can never prove and don't matter in the least still doesn't actually deflect the fact that Love does some dickish stuff now and again, like clockwork.

Instead it comes off like you folks are resentful on Mike's behalf... about what, exactly? That a troubled, beloved drummer who died decades ago got a "free pass" somehow. As if he (and his family) didn't pay fucking DEARLY for his mistakes.

Seriously.

And this is getting ridiculous. So if Mike "admit no fault" Love doesn't outright say "yep, I humiliated myself." It doesn't count? Bob Dylan's quip at the end stole the show and had everyone laughing *at* Mike at the end. Carl and I think it was Al, apologized to George and Ringo after the fact (according to Catch a Wave) Its almost universally regarded as Mike making a fool of himself. Case closed.

I get that some of you want to defend the guy, but this is silly.

[ontor pertawst]

And, rather than fire her, the school needed to hire a substitute to cover that class when this teacher was incapacitated.  Same for Dennis.  They had to keep a back up drummer ready.  He was not reliable and all the compassion and love in the world doesn't fix that.  When he was good and sober, he was just the greatest.  When he was off the rails, the show still  needed to go on.   Who paid? We all paid.  Watching Dennis in that diminished capacity was painful for his fans.  

Right, now imagine how pointless it would be that having said that... I just responded by going "If it was Mike Love drunk and messing up shows, you'd defend it!"

Oh wait, you folks ARE doing that. Never mind, I just cancelled myself out and will disappear in a poof of logic. Carry on.

[drbeachboy]

It's such a weak point. "Yeah, if Ernest Borgine said it... you'd all applaud it!" "If William Bendix advocated yogic flying and talked sh*t about his cousins for decades, you'd be on his side!" yeah, well... those other guys DIDN'T say these things or do these dopey things. Mike Love did. Spinning hypotheticals you can never prove and don't matter in the least still doesn't actually deflect the fact that Love does some dickish stuff now and again, like clockwork.

Instead it comes off like you folks are resentful on Mike's behalf... about what, exactly? That a troubled, beloved drummer who died decades ago got a "free pass" somehow. As if he (and his family) didn't pay fucking DEARLY for his mistakes.

Seriously.

And this is getting ridiculous. So if Mike "admit no fault" Love doesn't outright say "yep, I humiliated myself." It doesn't count? Bob Dylan's quip at the end stole the show and had everyone laughing *at* Mike at the end. Carl and I think it was Al, apologized to George and Ringo after the fact (according to Catch a Wave) Its almost universally regarded as Mike making a fool of himself. Case closed.

I get that some of you want to defend the guy, but this is silly.

No one said that the other guys weren't embarrassed. Hell, even I felt like that 27 years ago. Again, I have never heard anything from Mike or anyone else that Mike felt humiliated. You guys act like, just because you felt that way, that he had to feel that way. It is just not the case, it seems.

[Wirestone]

I don't hate Mike.

I don't know Mike.

I intensely dislike some of his actions. But so what? It's not going to make my or anyone else's life better to dwell on it, and carrying around negativity hurts the soul.

[CenturyDeprived]

It's such a weak point. "Yeah, if Ernest Borgine said it... you'd all applaud it!" "If William Bendix advocated yogic flying and talked sh*t about his cousins for decades, you'd be on his side!" yeah, well... those other guys DIDN'T say these things or do these dopey things. Mike Love did. Spinning hypotheticals you can never prove and don't matter in the least still doesn't actually deflect the fact that Love does some dickish stuff now and again, like clockwork.

Instead it comes off like you folks are resentful on Mike's behalf... about what, exactly? That a troubled, beloved drummer who died decades ago got a "free pass" somehow. As if he (and his family) didn't pay fucking DEARLY for his mistakes.

Seriously.

And this is getting ridiculous. So if Mike "admit no fault" Love doesn't outright say "yep, I humiliated myself." It doesn't count? Bob Dylan's quip at the end stole the show and had everyone laughing *at* Mike at the end. Carl and I think it was Al, apologized to George and Ringo after the fact (according to Catch a Wave) Its almost universally regarded as Mike making a fool of himself. Case closed.

I get that some of you want to defend the guy, but this is silly.

No one said that the other guys weren't embarrassed. Hell, even I felt like that 27 years ago. Again, I have never heard anything from Mike or anyone else that Mike felt humiliated. You guys act like, just because you felt that way, that he had to feel that way. It is just not the case, it seems.

Mike essentially never outwardly (in a public capacity) regrets anything that he has ever done/said, at least as far as I know, right?

Let's just say the man has problems saying he is sorry, just like Fonzie did on Happy Days, and at least we can agree at that?

It's not something to be proud of, it's a character flaw, but it is what it is, right? If we can all simply agree on this, then there is not much else to discuss... it's when people try to defend this, and say that an inability to publicly voice regret (the way Carl nobly did, for one) is not a character flaw... that a sober Mike being unable to publicly say sorry after the fact is perfectly hunky-dory and a praiseworthy, wonderful way for him to be... that's when the combative, endless debates go on and on.

The quickest way to end the discussion is to admit that he is overly defensive to a fault, and for posters to stop grasping at straws to defend stuff the way the man in question does himself. I don't for a moment think that there's a single poster here who actually, in their heart, thinks that Mike isn't overly defensive, and that he hasn't hurt his reputation at times by this over-defensiveness... I think people just plain don't want to admit this is the case for some strange reason.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

It's such a weak point. "Yeah, if Ernest Borgine said it... you'd all applaud it!" "If William Bendix advocated yogic flying and talked sh*t about his cousins for decades, you'd be on his side!" yeah, well... those other guys DIDN'T say these things or do these dopey things. Mike Love did. Spinning hypotheticals you can never prove and don't matter in the least still doesn't actually deflect the fact that Love does some dickish stuff now and again, like clockwork.

Instead it comes off like you folks are resentful on Mike's behalf... about what, exactly? That a troubled, beloved drummer who died decades ago got a "free pass" somehow. As if he (and his family) didn't pay fucking DEARLY for his mistakes.

Seriously.

And this is getting ridiculous. So if Mike "admit no fault" Love doesn't outright say "yep, I humiliated myself." It doesn't count? Bob Dylan's quip at the end stole the show and had everyone laughing *at* Mike at the end. Carl and I think it was Al, apologized to George and Ringo after the fact (according to Catch a Wave) Its almost universally regarded as Mike making a fool of himself. Case closed.

I get that some of you want to defend the guy, but this is silly.

No one said that the other guys weren't embarrassed. Hell, even I felt like that 27 years ago. Again, I have never heard anything from Mike or anyone else that Mike felt humiliated. You guys act like, just because you felt that way, that he had to feel that way. It is just not the case, it seems.

Mike essentially never outwardly (in a public capacity) regrets anything that he has ever done/said, at least as far as I know, right?

Let's just say the man has problems saying he is sorry, just like Fonzie did on Happy Days, and at least we can agree at that?

It's not something to be proud of, it's a character flaw, but it is what it is, right? If we can all simply agree on this, then there is not much else to discuss... it's when people try to defend this, and say that an inability to publicly voice regret (the way Carl nobly did, for one) is not a character flaw... that a sober Mike being unable to publicly say sorry after the fact is perfectly hunky-dory and a praiseworthy, wonderful way for him to be... that's when the combative, endless debates go on and on.

The quickest way to end the discussion is to admit that he is overly defensive to a fault, and for posters to stop grasping at straws to defend stuff the way the man in question does himself. I don't for a moment think that there's a single poster here who actually, in their heart, thinks that Mike isn't overly defensive, and that he hasn't hurt his reputation at times by this over-defensiveness... I think people just plain don't want to admit this is the case for some strange reason.

This about sums it up.

/thread

[drbeachboy]

If he hasn't said I'm sorry in the past 27 years, then in my opinion he isn't sorry. It's not like this happened in the past year. No, I won't say he has a problem saying sorry, because I don't know the guy to say one way or the other. The best way to end this is to mind our own business and let Mike to tend to Mike. Nothing Mike has said or done has ever hurt my feelings. I don't get that involved. I like the Beach Boys for the music, not because of their individual personalities. I certainly am not going to hold animosity for something that was said over a quarter of a century ago. Think about it? Just like I will never be more pissed at Mike, then Brian would be, when Mike is brought up in interviews. We carry our fandom way too far to the extreme.

[filledeplage]

And, rather than fire her, the school needed to hire a substitute to cover that class when this teacher was incapacitated.  Same for Dennis.  They had to keep a back up drummer ready.  He was not reliable and all the compassion and love in the world doesn't fix that.  When he was good and sober, he was just the greatest.  When he was off the rails, the show still  needed to go on.   Who paid? We all paid.  Watching Dennis in that diminished capacity was painful for his fans.  

Right, now imagine how pointless it would be that having said that... I just responded by going "If it was Mike Love drunk and messing up shows, you'd defend it!"

Oh wait, you folks ARE doing that. Never mind, I just cancelled myself out and will disappear in a poof of logic. Carry on.

That is the closest analogy that came to me.  This teacher was that valued on the staff that they gave the time off and got class coverage to make sure the kids did not fall behind.  It is the same consideration given to Dennis.  By the same token, the show had to go on.  

If any other band member needed that time, and show coverage, or support, they likely would have had it.  

And I don't like being called "you folks." I like all the band.