Brian Wilson & Songwriting Credits

[Rocket]

I was reading the "Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight Appreciation Thread", where I was directed to this old thread: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14515.25.html ,posted by Jesse Reiswig.

Reading the opening paragraph of that thread, I began to wonder which songs after the 60s that Brian didn't really write, but was given a writing credit.

That post mentions "Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight" and "Let It Shine". Any other songs where Brian was given a writing credit but didn't really contribute much? I know "Deirdre" was one.

Also worth nothing that I recently got Apple Music and I am trying to make a massive playlist of songs written by Brian, so it would be nice to know which songs to remove if they weren't, ya know, written by Brian haha.

[Uncle Jesse]

I'm pretty sure I've read that a lot of the music for Sail on Sailor was written by Van Dyke Parks, and Brian mostly just kind of filled it all out.  And of course we all know that everyone and their dog contributed lyrics to Sail on Sailor. 

[GhostyTMRS]

On "The Warmth Of The Sun" podcast, Brian said he didn't like "Sail On Sailor" because the finished product wasn't like what he started out writing and said there were too many other people involved. Obviously he's changed his mind during the past decade. I'd love to know how the song went originally.

[bgas]

 If I could only find that interview where Brian says he didn't write any of the songs, they were all Murry....

[c-man]

OK, but according to Jeff Lynne, Brian actually wrote a lot of the lyrics on "Let It Shine". Paley has said the same thing about Brian's contribution to "Soul Searchin'". So to say he doesn't really deserve a credit on those songs (and doubtless others that are debated) is incorrect. He deserves as much credit as Ton Asher and Mike Love, to name but two.

[bgas]

OK, but according to Jeff Lynne, Brian actually wrote a lot of the lyrics on "Let It Shine". Paley has said the same thing about Brian's contribution to "Soul Searchin'". So to say he doesn't really deserve a credit on those songs (and doubtless others that are debated) is incorrect. He deserves as much credit as Ton Asher and Mike Love, to name but two.

Or, as Brian would say, Two Butts

[HeyJude]

OK, but according to Jeff Lynne, Brian actually wrote a lot of the lyrics on "Let It Shine". Paley has said the same thing about Brian's contribution to "Soul Searchin'". So to say he doesn't really deserve a credit on those songs (and doubtless others that are debated) is incorrect. He deserves as much credit as Ton Asher and Mike Love, to name but two.

And apparently nobody has contradicted the idea that Brian wrote the "let it shine, oh, let it shine" intro bit, which is completely different from the rest of the song and would seemingly warrant a co-writing credit.

Being very familiar with Lynne's work, especially during this time, I would say the rest of the song does sound very "Jeff Lynne-ish" (though it doesn't "sound like ELO" like a number of reviews over the years have claimed; Lynne's late 80's production sound was in many ways quite different from the "classic ELO" sound). If there was a Brian contribution to the bulk of the song (meaning outside of the intro), I would say it would be more likely to be lyrics. The chord changes (and of course the arrangement; timpani, descending bass/baritone guitar, synth flourishes, etc.) are very Lynne-ish. A lot of the lyrics are too (he uses "stars" and "shine" and "light" a lot), but I could easily picture Brian having added some stuff in there.

"Let It Shine" is certainly not a good example of anything close to a 50/50 collaboration as best as I can tell, but it doesn't strike me at all as a case where he shouldn't have even received a co-writing credit.

[Andrew G. Doe]

From the 2000 Brian Wilson reissue liner notes:

"Brian remembers that Jeff Lynne had most of the song written before they met, and that Brian’s main compositional composition was writing the “Let It Shine” vocal round that opens the track. For the a cappella opening section (repeated near the end of the song), Brian stacked excellent harmonies. The cut also features what is perhaps his sweetest lead vocal on the album.

Brian was concerned that the track was too sterile at first, but as he and Lynne worked in the studio, he began to like the song more. Recently Brian noted, “Jeff brought out the goodness in me. And vice versa.”"

[NateRuvin]

Santa Ana Winds is probably more Al than Brian. Same with Crack At Your Love.

That's just an assumption though.

[HeyJude]

I know there were reports back then that Brian “hated” “Let It Shine”, but he apparently liked it enough to actually add it to the setlist in 2000 for a short time. I saw the first show where they added the song to the setlist in 2000, and outside of Smile-era material popping up in 2001, it may still be the biggest *surprise* as far as a setlist pick in any of the shows I’ve seen, just in terms of thinking I never would have guessed they would do it.

I was also surprised when, a year or two back, someone dug up that lengthy, interesting Carl Wilson interview from 1989 and translated it, and Carl mentioned “Let It Shine” specifically as one he liked off Brian’s then-recent album.

[petsoundsnola]

Deirdre from Sunflower is probably a mostly Bruce composition with minimal Brian input.

"RCM You co-wrote Deirdre with Brian for that album.

Bruce Johnston: I wrote all the music for the song and started writing the lyrics with Brian although that’s not his strong point, even though we must remember that Brian wrote all the lyrics for songs like Surfer Girl and ’Til I Die. So Deidre was kind of my song and I split it 50/50 with him. It’s really about 99% my baby."

Full Interview with Bruce:

http://www.rockcellarmagazine.com/2013/09/04/bruce-johnston-interview-beach-boys/#sthash.QcFHM3dN.dpbs

[Jesse Reiswig]

I think Brian's co-writing credit on "Soulful Old Man Sunshine," while perhaps not totally undeserved, makes it seem like Brian was a lot more responsible for that song than he was. Stephen Desper has made it clear somewhere that this was almost totally Rick Henn's baby. Certainly he shouldn't be listed first in the credits.

A less extreme example is "Lonely Sea," where the chord structure at least was totally written by Usher independently and Brian helped him finish the song, notably writing the lyrics, according to Murphy's new book. It might be technically more correct to list Usher first in the credits.

"Sweet Mountain" appears to have been more David Sandler's baby than Brian's, though again, B Dub probably deserves the co-writing credit but should possibly be listed second for greater fairness. AGD, what's the name of the Sandler song this appears to have been based on? I remember your mentioning this at some point.

[Sound of Free]

Brian's contribution to "Let It Shine" was basically the same as Mike's to "I Get Around", right? Adding a vocal intro, repeated later in the song, to an otherwise finished product.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think Brian's co-writing credit on "Soulful Old Man Sunshine," while perhaps not totally undeserved, makes it seem like Brian was a lot more responsible for that song than he was. Stephen Desper has made it clear somewhere that this was almost totally Rick Henn's baby. Certainly he shouldn't be listed first in the credits.

A less extreme example is "Lonely Sea," where the chord structure at least was totally written by Usher independently and Brian helped him finish the song, notably writing the lyrics, according to Murphy's new book. It might be technically more correct to list Usher first in the credits.

"Sweet Mountain" appears to have been more David Sandler's baby than Brian's, though again, B Dub probably deserves the co-writing credit but should possibly be listed second for greater fairness. AGD, what's the name of the Sandler song this appears to have been based on? I remember your mentioning this at some point.

"Standing Tall".

[HeyJude]

I think Brian's co-writing credit on "Soulful Old Man Sunshine," while perhaps not totally undeserved, makes it seem like Brian was a lot more responsible for that song than he was. Stephen Desper has made it clear somewhere that this was almost totally Rick Henn's baby. Certainly he shouldn't be listed first in the credits.

A less extreme example is "Lonely Sea," where the chord structure at least was totally written by Usher independently and Brian helped him finish the song, notably writing the lyrics, according to Murphy's new book. It might be technically more correct to list Usher first in the credits.

"Sweet Mountain" appears to have been more David Sandler's baby than Brian's, though again, B Dub probably deserves the co-writing credit but should possibly be listed second for greater fairness. AGD, what's the name of the Sandler song this appears to have been based on? I remember your mentioning this at some point.

It is worth noting that while it may be common practice among some writers to put the "main" writer first in credits, there's really no rule about it. Sometimes writers agree on an order (the obvious example being "Lennon/McCartney"). Sometimes you'll see alternate orders on different releases/sheet music, etc.

Also, two names under both "Words & Music" doesn't always mean they're getting a 50/50 split of the actual songwriting royalties.

I would guess Brian isn't getting less than 50% of the songs his name appears on (where there are two names of course), but sometimes we don't know what the actual monetary split is. For instance, it may be that on some of the songs for which Mike won his songwriting lawsuit back in the 90's, he may not be getting 50% of the royalties. He could be getting a 50/50 split on only the "words" (though I don't believe any sheet music says "Words by Brian Wilson and Mike Love, Music by Brian Wilson", the split could still happen that way).

[harrisonjon]

VDP claims in the Priore book that he realized in 2003 he had been omitted from some writing credits for Smile tracks released prior to then and that he got a guarantee from Brian and Melinda that this would be rectified for the BWPS project. I'm not sure if that was also honored in the 2011 sessions release.

[harrisonjon]

VDP claims in the Priore book that he realized in 2003 he had been omitted from some writing credits for Smile tracks released prior to then and that he got a guarantee from Brian and Melinda that this would be rectified for the BWPS project. I'm not sure if that was also honored in the 2011 sessions release.

This is unrelated to the forthcoming re-release schedule in which Carol Kaye is credited of co-writer of every song from Surfin' through to That's Why God Made The Radio.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think Brian's co-writing credit on "Soulful Old Man Sunshine," while perhaps not totally undeserved, makes it seem like Brian was a lot more responsible for that song than he was. Stephen Desper has made it clear somewhere that this was almost totally Rick Henn's baby. Certainly he shouldn't be listed first in the credits.

A less extreme example is "Lonely Sea," where the chord structure at least was totally written by Usher independently and Brian helped him finish the song, notably writing the lyrics, according to Murphy's new book. It might be technically more correct to list Usher first in the credits.

"Sweet Mountain" appears to have been more David Sandler's baby than Brian's, though again, B Dub probably deserves the co-writing credit but should possibly be listed second for greater fairness. AGD, what's the name of the Sandler song this appears to have been based on? I remember your mentioning this at some point.

It is worth noting that while it may be common practice among some writers to put the "main" writer first in credits, there's really no rule about it. Sometimes writers agree on an order (the obvious example being "Lennon/McCartney"). Sometimes you'll see alternate orders on different releases/sheet music, etc.

Also, two names under both "Words & Music" doesn't always mean they're getting a 50/50 split of the actual songwriting royalties.

I would guess Brian isn't getting less than 50% of the songs his name appears on (where there are two names of course), but sometimes we don't know what the actual monetary split is. For instance, it may be that on some of the songs for which Mike won his songwriting lawsuit back in the 90's, he may not be getting 50% of the royalties. He could be getting a 50/50 split on only the "words" (though I don't believe any sheet music says "Words by Brian Wilson and Mike Love, Music by Brian Wilson", the split could still happen that way).

In my naivety, I've always assumed the custom was music/lyrics.

[HeyJude]

I’m sure there are folks more knowledgeable than myself when it comes to how songwriting credits/publishing works. What I *do* know is that there isn’t much legal precedent for going after a publisher or sheet music or CDs, etc. for re-ordering the credits. It doesn’t change what percentages are assigned to different folks. That’s why all that stuff about Yoko considering suing McCartney over the “McCartney/Lennon” credit was all a PR thing; had she actually gone after McCartney (or more likely the publisher of the product in question), she probably would have lost, because the Lennon estate was being credited and receiving all applicable royalties.

I can’t remember what release it was, perhaps one of “Knebworth 1980” releases (either CD or DVD), where all of the “B.Wilson/M.Love” credits were flipped to “M.Love/B.Wilson.”

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen things like “Sail on Sailor”, or something like that with numerous writers, where the order changes. I think as long as all of the writers are there somewhere, and more importantly as long as they get the share of royalties they are due, then everything else doesn’t matter too much.

In some cases, ASCAP or BMI have “writers” listed who aren’t even “writers” but rather have simply been assigned a percentage of the publishing. This was the case with Badfinger manager Bill Collins, whose name never appears on the actual release of Badfinger albums, but whose name pops up on the ASCAP and/or BMI databases for a bunch of Badfinger songs, because he got a cut due to their partnership as other sometimes-non-writing members received (thus weird screw-ups like listing *five* writers on “Without You” when it won that ASCAP award back in the 90s; only Evans and Ham wrote the song, but all four band members plus Collins were assigned a share of the royalties and thus were on the songs in the ASCAP database).

[onkster]

We all know about how Brian gave credit to Chuck Berry on Surfin' USA, which led to a credit correction.

And there's also the matter of "Never Learn Not to Love", which remains uncorrected, yes?

But what about the song that an unknown songwriter "handed over" to the band because they all pressured him to give it over and relinquish all credits to it. The story was elsewhere on this board--I can't seem to find it now, but I bet it's still here. My question: what was the song, was it recorded/released, and were there ever credit corrections to this? It was one of the saddest BB-related stories I've read here...

[Mike's Beard]

But what about the song that an unknown songwriter "handed over" to the band because they all pressured him to give it over and relinquish all credits to it. The story was elsewhere on this board--I can't seem to find it now, but I bet it's still here. My question: what was the song, was it recorded/released, and were there ever credit corrections to this? It was one of the saddest BB-related stories I've read here...

Are you thinking about 'It's About Time' where the guy who wrote the bulk of the tune was offered a flat rate for the band to buy it off him and rewrite it?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Bob Burchman.

[HeyJude]

It's also possible that the "handing over" credits story may be referring to Ed Carter's "Surfer Suzie", which was one of the songs supposedly rolling around during the KTSA period; difference being that in that case he supposedly/allgedly did not and/or would not hand it over and relinquish credits. I've never heard it (has it ever been aired/leaked/performed in any form?). I've always wondered if that's what really went down with that song, considering they had had no problem recording songs by outside authors in the past. Yes, most of those were cover versions as opposed to "songs for hire." But they did record "Winds of Change" for instance, and the authors of that track remained.

[Sjöman]

Here, and continued here, is Burchman's story about It's About Time.

[Ron]

If I could only find that interview where Brian says he didn't write any of the songs, they were all Murry....

one of the consequences of having a really creative mind, who knows what he meant by that.  He could have been telling the truth... or, he could have been messing with the interviewer, or, he could have been lying just trying to get the interview over, OR, he could have been saying that his father influenced him so much in that period of his life that he wrote all the songs to impress his father, or.....

Very interesting quote though...