Whennn was the last time Mike got to write with Brian alone in a room?

[filledeplage]

Plus the songwriting credits Mike sued for and won in 1994 are sure sketchy since he offered to settle for far less outside of court. Plus waiting for Brian to be in a period of weakness with recovering from Landy and Gary Usher/Roger Christian being deceased.

SMiLE Brian - the suit was likely* not against Brian.  It was likely against "Murry" but, since Murry was long deceased, Brian "stood in Murry's shoes" not unlike children who inherit a property that causes harm to someone get called into court as defendants, often because the parents are "unavailable" ( because they are deceased ) or are "witnesses" to an event.  

It is grossly misunderstood.  And it didn't ever seem that Brian didn't cause the non-attribution of songwriting credits, but Murry who clearly had power and control.  "Sea of Tunes" sale ring a bell?   It was not Brian's fault, but Murry's action.  

There is a lot to be said for an "action in court," because evidence is out in the open and in the record.  It is why people tend to disfavor "settlements" and "arbitration" because of the secrecy of the terms.  

[filledeplage]

filledeplage, you're really citing "Wouldn't It Be Nice" as a Wilson/Love collaboration? That was a song Brian wrote with Tony Asher that Mike got a credit on for one line at the end, if that.

Smile4ever - I don't have my original Pet Sounds LP at hand.  Tony may have a later credit.  I was looking for Wilson-Love collaboration.  Wind Chimes has Brian, Dennis, Carl and Mike listed on wiki.  There have been revisions. 

[Howie Edelson]

Cam -

I had heard differently from people that were not directly attached to the already booked C50 dates -- they were talking about other venues (not sheds) in other cities. But the bottom line re: MSG and what most lay people don't understand about at least THAT specific venue is that an act just about breaks even playing there, due to high cost of the venue (security, etc. . . which is why so many other NYC-area venues have prospered in the past and present.) So, to answer your question without seeing any paperwork, the logical answer would be that if in fact any MSG offer was in the air, it would've undoubtedly been for the 2013 calendar year, seeing as how the band essentially played to (someone help me whith the numbers) some 40,000 NY tri-state area fans over, I think, five different venues. They made a lot more money on those gigs than if they did two nights at the Garden -- BUT. . . . . . . .  they didn't get prestigious The New York Times review of a Madison Square Garden gig that the tour deserved.

The 2013 North American ideas floated around by the people I know were never made public -- but were all for 2013 -- and I don't believe they were even pitched to the band due to the ugly and amateur ending. I will say this, though; there were a lot of people with far deeper pockets than Joe Thomas watching how C50 played out and according to ALL my contacts as soon as the press release went down it was DEAD. They saw a mess and moved on.

And as one very powerful booking agent said to me -- and this stuck with me when I was pressing him about "Yeah, but what if they got it back together and made it work for the next year, and a new LP, and a DVD, etc, etc, etc. . ."

He said to me, QUOTE: "Look. It's dead. It's over. And it's dead not because Brian was crazy, or because Al was difficult, or Dennis was drunk and f ucked up the show, it was because Mike walked. He walked away from Brian Wilson, and Rolling Stone, and the Royal Albert Hall, and actual asses in the seats -- for WHAT? For parking lots with lawn chairs. He wanted to be the boss. Good. Now he's the boss. No one gets a second chance to take an AARP brand and become an arena act."

I felt like s hit for a week.

 

[SMiLE Brian]

Well said Howie! 

[Cam Mott]

Cam -

I had heard differently from people that were not directly attached to the already booked C50 dates -- they were talking about other venues (not sheds) in other cities. But the bottom line re: MSG and what most lay people don't understand about at least THAT specific venue is that an act just about breaks even playing there, due to high cost of the venue (security, etc. . . which is why so many other NYC-area venues have prospered in the past and present.) So, to answer your question without seeing any paperwork, the logical answer would be that if in fact any MSG offer was in the air, it would've undoubtedly been for the 2013 calendar year, seeing as how the band essentially played to (someone help me whith the numbers) some 40,000 NY tri-state area fans over, I think, five different venues. They made a lot more money on those gigs than if they did two nights at the Garden -- BUT. . . . . . . .  they didn't get prestigious The New York Times review of a Madison Square Garden gig that the tour deserved.

The 2013 North American ideas floated around by the people I know were never made public -- but were all for 2013 -- and I don't believe they were even pitched to the band due to the ugly and amateur ending. I will say this, though; there were a lot of people with far deeper pockets than Joe Thomas watching how C50 played out and according to ALL my contacts as soon as the press release went down it was DEAD. They saw a mess and moved on.

And as one very powerful booking agent said to me -- and this stuck with me when I was pressing him about "Yeah, but what if they got it back together and made it work for the next year, and a new LP, and a DVD, etc, etc, etc. . ."

He said to me, QUOTE: "Look. It's dead. It's over. And it's dead not because Brian was crazy, or because Al was difficult, or Dennis was drunk and f ucked up the show, it was because Mike walked. He walked away from Brian Wilson, and Rolling Stone, and the Royal Albert Hall, and actual asses in the seats -- for WHAT? For parking lots with lawn chairs. He wanted to be the boss. Good. Now he's the boss. No one gets a second chance to take an AARP brand and become an arena act."

I felt like s hit for a week.

 

I wondered about that because Phish had announced they were the NYE act at MSG for NYE '12 before the end of the C50 tour and I thought Wrigley's 2013 season was already over.

At the time of the "mess" Brian and Mike both said they had not discussed the 2013 offers as a group yet and Mike said recently that they never had (I think he said "never"). So I take it the necessary group members/people didn't get together to discuss the 2013 opportunities because they were never offered to discuss because of the "mess".

I agree with your lament that the group needs some sort of manager.

[filledeplage]

I believe it was in the mid 90's when they last wrote in the same room. As for the TWGMTR co-writes, as I understood it Mike would write his lyrics seperatly-no same room collaboration. I think that is due to Brian's people not wanting/allowing it (managers/collaborators/etc).  Too bad, as Wilson/Love songs are among my favorite in the pop music realm! (Wilson/Thomas/etc just don't do it for me...nor the charts.)

I don’t think Wilson/Love collaborations have burned up the charts in quite some time either. What’s the last Wilson/Love track that was a hit single? You probably have to go back to the 60’s. Even most of the scattered “minor hits” they had in the 70’s and 80’s were written by others. So if we’re talking about what “does it” for the charts, the evidence is that to the degree *anything* has succeeded in the last few decades, it has done so without Brian and Mike being in a room writing together. “Kokomo”, “Come Go With Me”, “Good Timin’”, “Rock and Roll Music”, all covers or tracks written without a Brian/Mike collaboration. I suppose “It’s OK” is another example, though it wasn’t a huge hit.

Which all isn’t to say I wouldn’t want to hear them write stuff from scratch. I think Brian could write some truly interesting stuff musically with nobody else contributing to the music part of it (and no, this isn’t a dig on Mike in terms of writing music; rather simply a question of hearing Brian’s musical ideas without collaborations on chords or melodies from Bennett or Thomas, etc.). I’m not sure what Mike would come up with lyrically.

My guess, and this is just a guess, conjecture, etc., is that Mike didn’t like the business/power/ego setup for C50, and most of the complaints we’ve heard from him in the last 2-3 years have been after-the-fact pieces of evidence that may not have particularly actually impacted his decision to go back to his own thing. The stuff about not being able to write alone with Brian, not being “consulted” enough on the album, etc., those are things that one could objectively look at and cite as disagreeable elements to participating in the project. But the evidence suggests that at the time, going into the project, he may well have KNOWN that that would be the setup for the album. They got a record deal based on Brian/Joe songs. It was known they were working from a cache of late 90’s Brian/Joe songs. The timeline/time frame for how long they had to finish recording the album was known. Mike later said he thought the band was too big, yet he obviously knew going into it EXACTLY how many people would be in the band. As with many projects of all sorts, what often happens is that everybody sucks it up and does the thing while it’s happening, because they’re contractually obligated to and are making some moolah doing it, and then when they aren’t obligated to it anymore, they will move on to something else and also have the freedom to say in retrospect all of the things they didn’t like about it. Fair enough I suppose, but when everybody else working on the project likes both the money aspect of the project as well as the logistical/power setup of it, then you’re going to be the buzzkill if you move on to something else.

Mike talking about the chart performance of TWGMTR is a perfect example of how the SAME piece of information can be digested and portrayed by the same person in two very different ways. During the 2012 tour, Mike went on about how the album was #1 on Amazon, was #3 on the album charts, etc. After the tour was over, all of a sudden the story is that it didn’t last long on the charts, and he wasn’t allowed enough input on the album. This, from the guy who did “Summer in Paradise” with zero Brian involvement and produced an album that didn’t chart at all in the Top 200.  

Hey Jude - I'm thinking you need a wiki basic fact check...while I appreaciate your zeal for the music, the list is long for the Brian - Mike "successful songsmithing."

Do It Again
Good Vibrations
Let him Run Wild
Little St. Nick ( resurrected EVERY holiday season for 50 years!)
The Man with all the Toys
Meant for You
The Warmth of the Sun
Add some Music
California Girls
Darlin'
I Get Around
I Know there's an Answer
I'm Waiting for the Day
Kiss Me, Baby
Please Let Me Wonder
Wouldn't it Be Nice (still used in many movies!)

That is just a little starter...

Anytime I see "ego" or "contractual obligations" my radar goes right up. It is speculative. And you can dislike any band member, living or dead, and it is clearly your right, but in my estimation, once the "value judgment" card rears it's head, the post loses cred.  

You wanna talk about a contract?  Then, post the contract.  It is ridiculous to speculate if you have no direct knowledge. That stuff is generally closely guarded and rightfully so.

I think you need to re-read my post. They had HUGE success (and quality success) in the 60’s. That’s the point I was trying to make by asking when was the last time they had a hit single.  

I’m sorry, but do you really think I’ve been on this board for ten years (and posting on BB forums and groups for TWENTY years) and yet didn’t know Brian and Mike wrote those songs in your list? Wait, Brian and Mike wrote “Good Vibrations”? Are you sure?

Your list backs up the question (and it was/is an open question) I posed, because everything on your list comes from 1968 or earlier. Your list is PRECISELY the point I was trying to make. They had great success in the 60’s, and haven’t so much since then as a hit-making, two-man songwriting team. To the degree that is an indictment on anybody, it is an indictment on both of them. They have also had some degree of alternative successes since then, and usually WITHOUT the other person involved. “Kokomo”, “That Lucky Old Sun”, the 2004 “Smile”, “No Pier Pressure”, and/or with songs not written by either of both of them (the few cover versions that were hits, etc.), and so on.

As to the ego/contractual obligation/contract stuff, it IS all speculation. At the same time, there’s some pretty hard info floating out there as well I’d say. Read Howie’s post again. If you think what *he’s* writing is BS, then nothing else needs to be said, “radar” notwithstanding.

Hey Jude - both men have written good stuff independent of one another.  There seems no plausible reason that anything they would jointly work on would not be "of quality." Art and music are often "hit or miss" works, depending on the times, contexts, promotion (we've seen that) radio promotion and biases of disc jockeys and ownership included.  I wasn't looking to make your argument, but just show a cursory "track-record."  Those who have a proven track-record tend to perform in conformity with that series of accomplishments.

Sometimes hard work does not prove financially fruitful. It is often a gamble.  One can never predict who is going to fail or succeed. There are no guarantees.

And, I'm not questioning Howie's perspective. He mentions some high profile venues.  I was not there, so I take "on good faith" until I hear differently.  It seems to be coming from an "industry perspective" and not the "principals' " perspective.  Each needs to be put into proper context.  Everything doesn't get "lumped together" for me.  

[Rocker]

What if MIKE didn't REALLY want a "one-on-one" collaboration?

To Mike's credit (or not) at the 2006 rooftop reunion Brian gave him a CD with a song and asked if he would write lyrics for that. Mike declined stating he wanted to start from scratch (Mike tells the story in an 2006/7 interview on Imus in the morning).

I don't know what or if anything was worked out before the reunion. Something seems strange because - as was mentioned already - the contract Brian and Joe got (and afaik this was before anything was planned with the other Beach Boys) from Capitol was for the songs they had already demoed according to Joe Thomas in some article. Brian, Mike and Joe then talked about it at a restaurant (see the Rolling Stone article).
IIRC then "Isn't it time" came about when they were in a studio and Mike started with the bassline, someone else played around with the verses and Brian out of the blue sang the chorus.

Anyway, some thoughts that come to mind: 

Did anyone try to tell Mike that maybe Brian needs a little time before he is ready to write with Mike again in a one-on-one situation without anybody else? I mean since the last time he went through a lot of changes and maybe he's just not ready yet. This of course is just a guess and might not have any truth to it.

Finally, looking at Mike's lyrical contributions to the album (except "Daybreak" which I think is a well written song) I don't think he gave anyone reason to have him write more lyrics. What he did come up with for the three songs he has a credit for is anything but worthwhile. Of course we don't know what he would've contributed had he and Brian worked the way Mike wants to but I think logically you would advertise the potential that writing with you can have instead of writing ...well, writing what we can hear on the album.





Howie, what does AARP mean?

[HeyJude]

At the time of the "mess" Brian and Mike both said they had not discussed the 2013 offers as a group yet and Mike said recently that they never had (I think he said "never"). So I take it the necessary group members/people didn't get together to discuss the 2013 opportunities because they were never offered to discuss because of the "mess".

In my opinion, the two take-aways from the available information and recent posts are:

1. They didn't "get together" to discuss things because one person had already decided before the tour was even over that they were DONE. It's easy then to state after the fact that nothing else materialized because "no discussions took place." In all of those interviews, I never once heard Mike say anything suggesting he actually TRIED to arrange any meetings (similar to what was mentioned earlier, asking if Mike ever actually TRIED to set up writing with Brian). There has never been anything suggesting Mike was particularly sad that the reunion didn't continue, or that he laments anything, or that he tried at all or worked against anyone or any other force to try to make it happen.

2. Future dates were a DEAD issue once that press release (and the accompanying media attention) hit. The stuff Howie is talking about as far as big-time promoters and industry people who absolutely were watching the C50 tour, that's stuff that few of us here (including myself) understand. Even those of us who dig into any legal paperwork about anything to do with BRI and corporate votes and meetings and all of that, that still is a totally separate orb from the concert/touring industry as a whole.

Howie's post about what the promoter had to say really cuts to the core of what occurred, in my opinion. I share Howie's frustration, and I too have had probably a very similar sort of reaction in the aftermath of C50. It starts to get like "Okay, well the industry probably thinks (and rightly so) that the Beach Boys are amateurs even after HALF A CENTURY in the business. But hey, they could still lineup another tour of some sort, right? A little short-term dealie at least?"

The answer to that question may well not ever be a firm NO, but it isn't anywhere close a YES, and even considering it ignores what a tragedy the end of that reunion is, for so many reasons. As I can only guess Howie and other fans have done, I've moved on and enjoyed what these guys continue to do on their own.

That they f-ed up a chance to indeed go from an AARP operation to an arena band doesn't change how much amazing music they've made or how much I enjoy it. But I can also move on from the C50 nonsense without having to IGNORE how much of a f***-up it was. That IS part of the story now. No, it won't be a big part of the one-page or one-paragraph bios written about the band many years from now. But it IS a significant part of the full, big picture.

[HeyJude]

What if MIKE didn't REALLY want a "one-on-one" collaboration?

To Mike's credit (or not) at the 2006 rooftop reunion Brian gave him a CD with a song and asked if he would write lyrics for that. Mike declined stating he wanted to start from scratch (Mike tells the story in an 2006/7 interview on Imus in the morning).

I don't know what or if anything was worked out before the reunion. Something seems strange because - as was mentioned already - the contract Brian and Joe got (and afaik this was before anything was planned with the other Beach Boys) from Capitol was for the songs they had already demoed according to Joe Thomas in some article. Brian, Mike and Joe then talked about it at a restaurant (see the Rolling Stone article).
IIRC then "Isn't it time" came about when they were in a studio and Mike started with the bassline, someone else played around with the verses and Brian out of the blue sang the chorus.

Anyway, some thoughts that come to mind: 

Did anyone try to tell Mike that maybe Brian needs a little time before he is ready to write with Mike again in a one-on-one situation without anybody else? I mean since the last time he went through a lot of changes and maybe he's just not ready yet. This of course is just a guess and might not have any truth to it.

Finally, looking at Mike's lyrical contributions to the album (except "Daybreak" which I think is a well written song) I don't think he gave anyone reason to have him write more lyrics. What he did come up with for the three songs he has a credit for is anything but worthwhile. Of course we don't know what he would've contributed had he and Brian worked the way Mike wants to but I think logically you would advertise the potential that writing with you can have instead of writing ...well, writing what we can hear on the album.





Howie, what does AARP mean?

I think one of the big take-always from the C50 aftermath is that, apparent to some people anyway, the appearance is that the bluff has been called on Mike for all of the decades of talk about wanting to write and work with Brian.  Not that he literally has ZERO interest in doing it.

But as with most of what he has said about Brian over the last few decades, it's much easier to TALK about Brian than to work WITH him. And some of that is certainly down to Brian and how his operation works.

But with C50, it was as close to a turn-key operation as one who wants to work and write with Brian could ever hope for. It had an infrastructure in place, and was setup so that it could evolve. Even if Brian has/had mixed feelings about getting in that room to write with Mike, my opinion is that if they had kept touring in 2013 and 2014, Mike probably would have gotten that "alone in a room with Brian" scenario to some degree at some point.

Howie poses an interesting question in a previous post: How much did Mike WANT to do the whole reunion thing? Even Mike naysayers have usually worked from the premise that, at least at the outset, Mike was enthusiastic about the project. What, and this definitely just a question, what if that wasn't the case? What if Mike was much more "meh" about the whole thing, but signed on for some other reason that was enticing, and then did a good job (for *most* of the tour anyway) about keeping up a good façade for the reunion project?

[Howie Edelson]

Cam --

I think it's safe to say that that nothing was discussed because it was informally deemed that any discussion would happen after the final dates. As Mike Love told me VERY CLEARLY in June 2012, the band was going to regroup after the tour and see where there were at. He spoke about further sessions. He gave me zero inclination that he was going to back out after Europe -- he even mentioned that further dates would feature Cal Saga. It was a vibe of "let's get through this and see if we CAN do this" mixed with an excited -- "Can you believe we're actually doing this?!"

I find that people cling to this "They never discussed!" "There were never definitive plans!" "It was only supposed to be. . . . . . . ." But it's living with one's head in the sand. Everyone -- from the press, to the venues, to the booking agents, to the BAND -- was amazed at how this went from strength to strength. Apart from some internal hiccups -- both musical and personal -- the was no reason to think that prior to the European dates there would need to be a sit down meeting. Nobody in the music business, barring Bruce Johnston, predicted that this reunion would be aborted.

And that's what it was -- an ABORTION.

And VERY, VERY, VERY SADLY, the touring brand -- and Mike Love's rep for that matter -- will never recover -- not in the States, at least. Definitely not to the working Rock press. He's solidly back in Lou Christie territory (and maybe that's where he's actually comfortable existing.)

Going from Frankie Valli to Mick Jagger and CHOOSING to go back to Frankie Valli (out of spite) is really the only way to sum it up -- and that's the truth no matter who hooks you up with backstage passes, freelance gigs, remembers you when they come to your town -- or anything of that sort.

I wish it was different. Believe me I do. It SHOULD be different. But I'd also rather see people onstage that want to be working with Brian Wilson when I listen to and see him.

[Mike's Beard]

The big surprise of the C50 blow up was how just about everyone (myself included) majorly overestimated just how badly Mike wanted to work with Brian again.

[Douchepool]

From where I see it Michael wanted to work with Brian and not the entourage. That's the way it goes. Brian's a package deal. So is Michael. It's not 1961 again and never will be. I'm just glad we got what we did from the band.

[the professor]

this is all so enlightening and yet so dark and grim. question: where do they do from here?  why not plan a new album and mini-tour together, correcting past errors? (silly question)

[KDS]

I never knew that there was a plan to regroup at the end of the C50 Tour to see what, if anything, could happen afterward. 

I thought this thread had devolved into the dead horse that is the 50th Anniversary Tour, but it's been interesting. 

But I also think that, when you're talking Beach Boys, no doors are ever really closed forever. 

While I highly doubt there will ever be another album or tour, I think that the 2012 lineup will play together again.  Perhaps in some sort of farewell scenario. 

Right now, both camps have their own business to attend to that will keep them busy through the end of 2015. 

[Nicko1234]

Ah, another thread that turns into the end of the C50 tour debate...

One thing I do know is that comparisons with The Rolling Stones are miles away from the truth. The C50 tour was obviously a success but The Rolling Stones can play to as many people in one show as the C50 tour did in a month...

[CenturyDeprived]

Ah, another thread that turns into the end of the C50 tour debate...

One thing I do know is that comparisons with The Rolling Stones are miles away from the truth. The C50 tour was obviously a success but The Rolling Stones can play to as many people in one show as the C50 tour did in a month...

And such a true, yet unfair disparity gap is likely due, in no small part, to the amount of overtouring that M&B do (said with full awareness of the BRI arrangement that has allowed it to happen).

[HeyJude]

Ah, another thread that turns into the end of the C50 tour debate...

One thing I do know is that comparisons with The Rolling Stones are miles away from the truth. The C50 tour was obviously a success but The Rolling Stones can play to as many people in one show as the C50 tour did in a month...

A question about Mike and writing with Brian “in the room” is pretty closely tied to the end of C50. It’s Mike who brings up the writing issue when asked about the reunion.

As for the “Rolling Stones” comparison, I think the point is that C50 took the touring brand *a long way* in a very short amount of time, and bands that are doing the circuit Mike’s band does (especially when they’re doing so on the back-end of their touring career after having played “bigger” venues years ago) do not often get a chance to re-boot a bit and work up to even getting offers for Madison Square Garden.

For a band to tour 125-150 shows per year, EVERY year, where at least *some* of those shows are in smaller markets at smaller venues (county fairs, bowling alleys, whatever), and then re-boot with a fuller lineup and work up to getting offers for arenas and stadiums, that is pretty freaking rare I’d say. Especially when it isn’t a new, up-and-coming band, but rather a band who did the arena/stadium thing thirty-plus years ago.

When I think about it, the amount of clout and “cred” the “Beach Boys” as a brand gained in 2012 is *more* impressive of a late-era rebound than hitting #1 with “Kokomo.” So, maybe one way to look at it that maybe Mike would understand better, is put it like this: For some fans and spectators, throwing away everything that was accomplished for C50 would be like telling Mike to drop “Kokomo” from his setlist and never perform it again.

[Nicko1234]

Ah, another thread that turns into the end of the C50 tour debate...

One thing I do know is that comparisons with The Rolling Stones are miles away from the truth. The C50 tour was obviously a success but The Rolling Stones can play to as many people in one show as the C50 tour did in a month...

And such a true, yet unfair disparity gap is likely due, in no small part, to the amount of overtouring that M&B do (said with full awareness of the BRI arrangement that has allowed it to happen).

It`s more due to the fact that The Rolling Stones are much more popular and have been since 1966. How many studio albums have they sold since the 1970s?

That`s not to knock The Beach Boys at all. But I don`t know why people persist in trying to make comparisons with The Beatles or The Stones when their levels of popularity have been colossally different for 49 years!

[CenturyDeprived]

Ah, another thread that turns into the end of the C50 tour debate...

One thing I do know is that comparisons with The Rolling Stones are miles away from the truth. The C50 tour was obviously a success but The Rolling Stones can play to as many people in one show as the C50 tour did in a month...

A question about Mike and writing with Brian “in the room” is pretty closely tied to the end of C50. It’s Mike who brings up the writing issue when asked about the reunion.

As for the “Rolling Stones” comparison, I think the point is that C50 took the touring brand *a long way* in a very short amount of time, and bands that are doing the circuit Mike’s band does (especially when they’re doing so on the back-end of their touring career after having played “bigger” venues years ago) do not often get a chance to re-boot a bit and work up to even getting offers for Madison Square Garden.

For a band to tour 125-150 shows per year, EVERY year, where at least *some* of those shows are in smaller markets at smaller venues (county fairs, bowling alleys, whatever), and then re-boot with a fuller lineup and work up to getting offers for arenas and stadiums, that is pretty freaking rare I’d say. Especially when it isn’t a new, up-and-coming band, but rather a band who did the arena/stadium thing thirty-plus years ago.

When I think about it, the amount of clout and “cred” the “Beach Boys” as a brand gained in 2012 is *more* impressive of a late-era rebound than hitting #1 with “Kokomo.” So, maybe one way to look at it that maybe Mike would understand better, is put it like this: For some fans and spectators, throwing away everything that was accomplished for C50 would be like telling Mike to drop “Kokomo” from his setlist and never perform it again.

Perish the thought!  

While I actually like Kokomo quite a bit (no joke), or at least the studio version with Carl, I almost get the feeling that if Mike for some legal reason had to drop either Good Vibrations or Kokomo from his setlist and never perform it again (or had to somehow drop one of those two song from ever existing whatsoever), that he'd drop Good Vibrations. It almost seems like the pride thing of having written a #1 song without Brian's help would have Kokomo win out. Call me crazy. I do wonder what the various Beach Boy members would do if given a genie in a bottle, or were forced to make choices like these.

[Wirestone]

Here's the thing. It's been noted many times before.

Brian and Mike were working in exceptionally close quarters for all of the C50 tour. There was no BW "entourage there" -- no Melinda, no Jean Sievers, no Joe Thomas -- for the vast majority of the shows.

If writing in the proverbial room is so important to Mike, why did he never -- in the entire tour -- drop by Brian's room either backstage or in the hotel? If co-writing is so important to him, why didn't he show up with some lyrics and ask Brian what he thought?

Let me repeat: The word from folks who were there is that Mike never did that. Never. In dozens of dates, across the U.S. and Europe, Mike never showed up to spend time with his cousin. Brian generally only collaborates with people he feels comfortable with. Mike had a chance to re-establish a relationship, to become comfortable with Brian yet again. But he didn't.

As always, a picture is worth a thousand of these.

[CenturyDeprived]

Here's the thing. It's been noted many times before.

Brian and Mike were working in exceptionally close quarters for all of the C50 tour. There was no BW "entourage there" -- no Melinda, no Jean Sievers, no Joe Thomas -- for the vast majority of the shows.

If writing in the proverbial room is so important to Mike, why did he never -- in the entire tour -- drop by Brian's room either backstage or in the hotel? If co-writing is so important to him, why didn't he show up with some lyrics and ask Brian what he thought?

Let me repeat: The word from folks who were there is that Mike never did that. Never. In dozens of dates, across the U.S. and Europe, Mike never showed up to spend time with his cousin. Brian generally only collaborates with people he feels comfortable with. Mike had a chance to re-establish a relationship, to become comfortable with Brian yet again. But he didn't.

Well, the sad thing is that Mike was probably avoiding even dealing with the situation, perhaps because he sensed that even if he could "get through" to Brian alone on a personal level, by sort of "sneaking" a one-on-one writing situation in once or twice on tour, that he (Mike) would subsequently have to deal with pushback or another cowriter sneaking into a hypothetical new-from-scratch song.  Obviously, poor communication was happening.

Maybe the writing was on the wall, from how Mike experienced writing collaboration (or lack thereof) during the TWGMTR sessions, in a way that was not suitable for his needs, that he'd not have any luck getting things done his way without conflict, so he just quit even trying at a certain point.

And I get it - that's surely a similar avoidance at writing that probably happened to Brian himself in the late 60s/early 70s, when he started getting pushback from Mike about musical direction. Brian also stopped trying at a certain point. I mean, how many times can a guy take rejection, attitude, pushback, from another collaborator, before not trying to work with them anymore? I think when artists, whether they be Brian or Mike, experience a barrier of sorts from another person/people impeding what they want, they eventually retreat and their output shrivels up.

The ultimate thing, however, that I believe Mike fails to realize, is that there is in all likelihood a legit reason why he was being c*ck-blocked in his desire to write with Brian the way he wanted to write with Brian. I just think that Brian and Melinda both likely had themselves discussed, or at least both know, that if Mike was granted such an opportunity, that Mike would eventually have demands for more control within the writing process. I believe that Brian would be of the opinion that, if Brian and Mike had done a one-on-one collab, that Brian himself would in his heart *want* final cut, so to speak; the ultimate decision on what the song will be like, or not be like, should conflict/disagreement arise.

But of course, as we all know, Brian has issues with letting himself be pushed around sometimes, or giving into pressure even when he doesn't want to. I'm sure Brian knows this, and just plain wants to avoid conflict, and working with someone who feels creatively entitled. Brian ultimately wants to be the boss and call the shots (he sang about it, for crying out loud!) And I think Brian (and surely Melinda) know that Mike has tendencies to not exactly be passive about getting what he (Mike) wants. So in the interest of not wanting to put Brian through the stress of dealing with (even the potential) of having a pushy collaborator who feels a sense of entitlement with regards to the creative process (moreso than any other possible latter-day collaborator that Brian could possibly work with), Brian and Melinda most likely don't want a situation arising like this which could cause stress, and that's probably part of why Mike was getting shut out the way he was. That's why other people are around, to play interference for Brian.

And while it's unfortunate, it's understandable, but I don't think Mike could possibly feel this is true; to protect his sense of ego, he has to feel like there's a massive conspiracy against him for no good reason other than greedy outsiders who want to push him out. He ain't facing the truth!

[Wirestone]

I think you're on target, CenturyD. Let's remember that Brian thrives on close personal relationships with his collaborators. Hell, forget songs. Mike could have just tried to spend some time with Brian and see what he was like. Hang out. Laugh and remember the good times. There were abundant opportunities to build the kind of relationship that Mike claims to want, or at least take steps toward it, and he didn't do any of them.

But I suspect that Mike, as you say, can't bring himself to admit that he would need to do the work necessary to rebuild that relationship and strengthen it to the point where Brian would feel comfortable working with him on all-new material.

[barsone]

Cam --

I think it's safe to say that that nothing was discussed because it was informally deemed that any discussion would happen after the final dates. As Mike Love told me VERY CLEARLY in June 2012, the band was going to regroup after the tour and see where there were at. He spoke about further sessions. He gave me zero inclination that he was going to back out after Europe -- he even mentioned that further dates would feature Cal Saga. It was a vibe of "let's get through this and see if we CAN do this" mixed with an excited -- "Can you believe we're actually doing this?!"

I find that people cling to this "They never discussed!" "There were never definitive plans!" "It was only supposed to be. . . . . . . ." But it's living with one's head in the sand. Everyone -- from the press, to the venues, to the booking agents, to the BAND -- was amazed at how this went from strength to strength. Apart from some internal hiccups -- both musical and personal -- the was no reason to think that prior to the European dates there would need to be a sit down meeting. Nobody in the music business, barring Bruce Johnston, predicted that this reunion would be aborted.

And that's what it was -- an ABORTION.

And VERY, VERY, VERY SADLY, the touring brand -- and Mike Love's rep for that matter -- will never recover -- not in the States, at least. Definitely not to the working Rock press. He's solidly back in Lou Christie territory (and maybe that's where he's actually comfortable existing.)

Going from Frankie Valli to Mick Jagger and CHOOSING to go back to Frankie Valli (out of spite) is really the only way to sum it up -- and that's the truth no matter who hooks you up with backstage passes, freelance gigs, remembers you when they come to your town -- or anything of that sort.

I wish it was different. Believe me I do. It SHOULD be different. But I'd also rather see people onstage that want to be working with Brian Wilson when I listen to and see him.

  Howie, just a question away from the main topic of the thread.  Obviously during tours of this size, stuff happens.  You spoke of both musical and personal issues cropping up during C50.  Are you at liberty to speak on any of this these incidents ?

[CenturyDeprived]

I think you're on target, CenturyD. Let's remember that Brian thrives on close personal relationships with his collaborators. Hell, forget songs. Mike could have just tried to spend some time with Brian and see what he was like. Hang out. Laugh and remember the good times. There were abundant opportunities to build the kind of relationship that Mike claims to want, or at least take steps toward it, and he didn't do any of them.

But I suspect that Mike, as you say, can't bring himself to admit that he would need to do the work necessary to rebuild that relationship and strengthen it to the point where Brian would feel comfortable working with him on all-new material.

Exactly, Wirestone.

You know, there's that brief clip in the "Do it Again" C50 promo video where Brian and Mike hug each other. It was touching. I rewound and replayed it a bunch of times when I first saw the video. It was emotional to watch. I do wonder if it was staged for cameras. Not saying those guys wouldn't hug each other; they probably would and did at some point.

But I can say from firsthand experience, that when people have fractured relationships, it absolutely takes lots of work, and often times APOLOGIES that feel completely genuine, for people who have past issues with others to feel fully comfortable around the other people again. Significant levels of trust don't often come about super duper quickly, especially with LOTS of water under the bridge. For example, I know a relative who is waiting for an apology from another relative. Feels that it's owed to her, and that it should be the first thing out of the other relative's mouth. Am I saying that Brian was sitting around waiting for an apology for issues "x", "y", and "z"? No, not necessarily. And Mike could also be wanting some huge apology that perhaps he never got (other than a settlement) for the 30-year songwriting screw job. But I just know that people, especially family, often need the other person to make the effort and build trust back, little by little, before the relationship can really be at a healthy place again. Before they'll allow themselves to be in a vulnerable position again.

I believe that Brian felt that he himself wasn't ready for that kind of trust right away with Mike again (especially considering the album was somewhat rushed to completion - it's not like they had years from when they decided to reunite to slowly take things little by little, other than using "Do it Again" as a test-run. It's massively unrealistic for Mike to think that he can just jump back into an 50-year-old type of working relationship when people have changed so much due to time and maturity. Not that Mike is stuck in the past or anything.  

[Wirestone]

I believe that Brian felt that he himself wasn't ready for that kind of trust right away with Mike again.

Hence, Joe. I honestly think that's the main reason that JT re-entered Brian's life. (And for that matter, why Don Was has come back to some extent as well.) If it's just Brian and the guys in his band, that's one thing. But the instant you bring in Mike, or the extra folks on NPP, Brian wants insulation. He wants a buffer. And no, that's not easy to understand, and it's not the most sociable thing in the world, but it's the reality of Brian for most of his adult life.