Would BB85 have existed in its current form if Denny had lived?

[CenturyDeprived]

At the time of Denny's passing, were there any actual attempts to make a new BB album? I have read there were failed / unrealized early 80s ideas about an album with multiple producers, recording or releasing more cover songs (ugh!), but I do wonder if Denny had lived, even if he had stayed away from being part of the writing/recording process as he mostly had done for the previous album, KTSA, would BB85 have happened?

Would the band have started writing, recording, and finding the producer they eventually found for BB85, in 1984? Or did that timeline accelerate due to the aftermath of Denny's passing?

I get the feeling that Denny's passing may have triggered the band to want to kickstart work on a new album which would be a new start, to unite together and get an album done, more so than might have happened if he had not died. Perhaps it was motivation to power through the tough times with making new music. What do you all think?

[KDS]

I think it depends on whether or not Dennis would've gotten himself clean. 

I'm uncertain on the timeline off the top of my head, but didn't Carl leave the group until Dennis passed? 

I think if Dennis got himself clean in the same way Brian was losing weight and starting to shake off his demons (with the help of another), I could see The Beach Boys with Brian, Mike, Al, Carl, Dennis, and Bruce putting out an album at some point in the mid 1980s. 

However, I doubt Dennis would've approved of the Steve Levine production style of the 85 album.

[Willy Wilson]

Wouldn't it be nice for Dennis to live again?

[KDS]

I'm sure somewhere Dennis is smiling for three reasons.

1.  After over 50 years, the music of The Beach Boys is still celebrated.

2.  His solo album Pacific Ocean Blue has become a cult classic, and considered by many to be the greatest BB solo record.

3.  His older brother Brian has become a prolific solo artist. 

[Nicko1234]

I maybe completely wrong but I think whenever Brian was well enough to work again they would have wanted to make a new album. I think it was always about Brian up to this point really.

Al was interviewed about Dennis`s death in ESQ ages ago and basically said that because Dennis had been largely out of the band for so long before his death, they just carried on as before.

(And in response to KDS`s post, Carl was back in the touring band long before Dennis died)

[Ang Jones]

I find it hard to imagine the Beach Boys continuing in the same way had Dennis lived. If he hadn't cleaned up, the band would perhaps have continued without him. Had he cleaned up, I'm not sure he would have been happy performing the greatest hits indefinitely and he may have been influenced by whatever decision Brian made about that. Had Brian left the band anyway,  perhaps Dennis would have worked with Brian.

[CenturyDeprived]

I find it hard to imagine the Beach Boys continuing in the same way had Dennis lived. If he hadn't cleaned up, the band would perhaps have continued without him. Had he cleaned up, I'm not sure he would have been happy performing the greatest hits indefinitely and he may have been influenced by whatever decision Brian made about that. Had Brian left the band anyway,  perhaps Dennis would have worked with Brian.

I guess more of what I'm getting at with my original question, is this :  were any circumstances already set up in motion pre 12/28/83 for the album to be recorded the way it was recorded, or did all of that completely start after Denny's death? After all, it was only a matter of months after he passed before the ball started rolling for the album.

And I'm also curious, hypothetically, if Denny lived but continued being out of the band, either due to alcoholism or otherwise, would BB85 still have happened when it did, the way it did? Something tells me the band might have simply kept touring for several more years without any new material, but perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that...

[KDS]

Thanks Nicko. 

Wasn't sure about exactly how long Carl was out of the group. 

[Joel Goldenberg]

I maybe completely wrong but I think whenever Brian was well enough to work again they would have wanted to make a new album. I think it was always about Brian up to this point really.

Al was interviewed about Dennis`s death in ESQ ages ago and basically said that because Dennis had been largely out of the band for so long before his death, they just carried on as before.

(And in response to KDS`s post, Carl was back in the touring band long before Dennis died)

Yes, Carl was back sometime in '82.

[Nicko1234]

I find it hard to imagine the Beach Boys continuing in the same way had Dennis lived. If he hadn't cleaned up, the band would perhaps have continued without him. Had he cleaned up, I'm not sure he would have been happy performing the greatest hits indefinitely and he may have been influenced by whatever decision Brian made about that. Had Brian left the band anyway,  perhaps Dennis would have worked with Brian.

I guess more of what I'm getting at with my original question, is this :  were any circumstances already set up in motion pre 12/28/83 for the album to be recorded the way it was recorded, or did all of that completely start after Denny's death? After all, it was only a matter of months after he passed before the ball started rolling for the album.

And I'm also curious, hypothetically, if Denny lived but continued being out of the band, either due to alcoholism or otherwise, would BB85 still have happened when it did, the way it did? Something tells me the band might have simply kept touring for several more years without any new material, but perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that...

I can`t see that. They had already recorded East Meets West even before Dennis died. And Chasin` the Sky was worked on in January 1984 so must have already been arranged.

[Steve Latshaw]

It wouldn't have been more cover versions.  CBS rejected the Runaway live single in 1982 precisely because it was a cover and they felt they'd paid for original (aka Brian Wilson) material.

I think it's significant that, apparently, Dennis really loved Every Breath You take by The Police.  The song itself has haunting, Beach Boys-style bg vocals, a great hook and very simple instrumentation (guitar, bass, drums).  I've always wondered what might have happened had the band gone for a trimmed down sound in the 80s... merging their early sixties style with current/adult songs...

[CenturyDeprived]

I find it hard to imagine the Beach Boys continuing in the same way had Dennis lived. If he hadn't cleaned up, the band would perhaps have continued without him. Had he cleaned up, I'm not sure he would have been happy performing the greatest hits indefinitely and he may have been influenced by whatever decision Brian made about that. Had Brian left the band anyway,  perhaps Dennis would have worked with Brian.

I guess more of what I'm getting at with my original question, is this :  were any circumstances already set up in motion pre 12/28/83 for the album to be recorded the way it was recorded, or did all of that completely start after Denny's death? After all, it was only a matter of months after he passed before the ball started rolling for the album.

And I'm also curious, hypothetically, if Denny lived but continued being out of the band, either due to alcoholism or otherwise, would BB85 still have happened when it did, the way it did? Something tells me the band might have simply kept touring for several more years without any new material, but perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that...

I can`t see that. They had already recorded East Meets West even before Dennis died. And Chasin` the Sky was worked on in January 1984 so must have already been arranged.

I guess instead of saying "without any new material", I should have said without any cohesive grouping of album material, where the group went in specifically to record a full length. Yes, the band kept recording odd songs like the ones you mentioned here and there, but I don't know if there were any plans to write and record a new record.

[CenturyDeprived]

It wouldn't have been more cover versions.  CBS rejected the Runaway live single in 1982 precisely because it was a cover and they felt they'd paid for original (aka Brian Wilson) material.

I think it's significant that, apparently, Dennis really loved Every Breath You take by The Police.  The song itself has haunting, Beach Boys-style bg vocals, a great hook and very simple instrumentation (guitar, bass, drums).  I've always wondered what might have happened had the band gone for a trimmed down sound in the 80s... merging their early sixties style with current/adult songs...

Dennis was certainly well ahead of his mates from the mid 70s-on when it came to seamlessly integrating modern music styles. POB and the Bambu tracks have a modern edge to them without sounding like trend-jumping, to my ears.  I suppose it's plausible to think that Every Breath You Take would have been a musical influence to a degree, had he cleaned up and worked on new tunes. I wonder if he was into any other Police tunes, or just this one (which is probably my fave Police tune also). I also do wonder if his voice irreparably damaged (as heard on that 1983 YASB performance), or if it could have healed/improved as his brother's eventually did.

[Nicko1234]

I guess instead of saying "without any new material", I should have said without any cohesive grouping of album material, where the group went in specifically to record a full length. Yes, the band kept recording odd songs like the ones you mentioned here and there, but I don't know if there were any plans to write and record a new record.

I really can`t see any reason why they wouldn`t have wanted to do a new record. Brian and Carl had done some work together in 1983 according to AGD`s site and, with Brian getting back to some sort of health, it is only natural that they would want to try to make a hit album (and be paid for it of course).

[Steve Latshaw]

I would like to imagine they might have added Do You Wanna Dance to the encore and have Dennis do it... just heard Dave Edmunds cover from the 1980s... made me smile...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpeEBUsR1So

[Ang Jones]

The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success.

Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart.

[Nicko1234]

The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success.

Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart.

I would say that, from a songwriting perspective, that`s a slightly harsh assessment of the BB85 stuff. Aside from California Calling (And I Always Will would have been a better inclusion) they tried to do a pretty mature album but they chose the wrong producer imo. Steve Levine`s work hasn`t exactly stood the test of time well. If they were going to choose to work with somebody hot at the time then the producer of someone like U2 or The Smiths would have been a better choice than Culture Club...

[c-man]

Reading through the various interviews with the guys (Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce) from 1980-'82, they were all up for recording to varying degrees, but the impediment was Brian's health (he wasn't considered healthy enough to work on a full album project).

Carl: wanted Brian healthy enough to work, but also wanted to work with a strong contemporary outside producer - realizing they could only achieve "Good Vibrations"-like greatness with Brian, but in the meantime settling for some mainstream hits with other peoples' material ("What You Do To Me" was originally pegged for the BBs)
Al: mentioned doing a "Party!" style album, and also possibly working with Stevie Wonder
Mike: wanted to write with Brian, but got tired of waiting for the other guys to start another project, so he did his own solo album
Bruce: wanted to do a series of singles (starting with a cover of BJ Thomas' "Rock And Roll Lullabye") until they had enough for an album

I think the gist of it is: they wanted Brian back, but like he was in the old days - they did NOT want another "Love You"-style album that would flop in the market place (nor did CBS, I'm sure). If they couldn't have "glory days" Brian, they would rather draw upon outside material (oldies or new stuff by other writers) and work with a contemporary producer with a strong track record of making hits. Bottom line: they were tired of making "duds", and would rather not do a new record unless it was certain to be a hit.

That said, and to answer the original question: in early May of 1983 (with Brian's health now solidly on the mend), news first surfaced of a planned Beach Boys studio album to be produced by Steve Levine (of Culture Club fame), with the backing tracks being recorded in the U.K., then flown over to the States where the vocals would be added.  By August of that year, contracts had been signed between CBS, Caribou, and Levine, but recording wasn't planned to start until the following summer. While it's interesting to speculate on how Dennis may have contributed to this album, his participation would, of course, have depended on his state of health, meaning chiefly whether or not he had successfully detoxified by the time recording commenced.  Given the advanced technological nature of Levine's production, any drum work on Dennis' part would likely have been digitally sampled and looped into the tracks. Dennis was reported to have been writing (or trying to) in the months leading up to his death, and as Jon Stebbins puts it, "maybe he could have croaked out a Tom Waits style thing", but all this is of course a moot point.

[CenturyDeprived]

Reading through the various interviews with the guys (Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce) from 1980-'82, they were all up for recording to varying degrees, but the impediment was Brian's health (he wasn't considered healthy enough to work on a full album project).

Carl: wanted Brian healthy enough to work, but also wanted to work with a strong contemporary outside producer - realizing they could only achieve "Good Vibrations"-like greatness with Brian, but in the meantime settling for some mainstream hits with other peoples' material ("What You Do To Me" was originally pegged for the BBs)
Al: mentioned doing a "Party!" style album, and also possibly working with Stevie Wonder
Mike: wanted to write with Brian, but got tired of waiting for the other guys to start another project, so he did his own solo album
Bruce: wanted to do a series of singles (starting with a cover of BJ Thomas' "Rock And Roll Lullabye") until they had enough for an album

I think the gist of it is: they wanted Brian back, but like he was in the old days - they did NOT want another "Love You"-style album that would flop in the market place (nor did CBS, I'm sure). If they couldn't have "glory days" Brian, they would rather draw upon outside material (oldies or new stuff by other writers) and work with a contemporary producer with a strong track record of making hits. Bottom line: they were tired of making "duds", and would rather not do a new record unless it was certain to be a hit.

That said, and to answer the original question: in early May of 1983 (with Brian's health now solidly on the mend), news first surfaced of a planned Beach Boys studio album to be produced by Steve Levine (of Culture Club fame), with the backing tracks being recorded in the U.K., then flown over to the States where the vocals would be added.  By August of that year, contracts had been signed between CBS, Caribou, and Levine, but recording wasn't planned to start until the following summer. While it's interesting to speculate on how Dennis may have contributed to this album, his participation would, of course, have depended on his state of health, meaning chiefly whether or not he had successfully detoxified by the time recording commenced.  Given the advanced technological nature of Levine's production, any drum work on Dennis' part would likely have been digitally sampled and looped into the tracks. Dennis was reported to have been writing (or trying to) in the months leading up to his death, and as Jon Stebbins puts it, "maybe he could have croaked out a Tom Waits style thing", but all this is of course a moot point.

Thanks for this info, c-man. All very interesting.

I had no idea about "What You Do To Me" being pegged for a BB song. Were any other Carl solo tracks as well? And the flipside; I wonder if any other potential Carl solo tracks became BB tracks.

I guess the answer to my original post seems to be yes, more than likely it would have been the same album. I can't imagine the anguish that Denny would have felt if he tried to sing a studio recording at that time. So rough was his voice on the 1983 live YASB, I imagine it broke his own heart (let alone his bandmates' hearts) to hear him that way, possibly irreparably. Was Getcha Back written pre 12/28/83? I remember reading that Mike envisioned Denny as the lead vocalist.

[c-man]

Reading through the various interviews with the guys (Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce) from 1980-'82, they were all up for recording to varying degrees, but the impediment was Brian's health (he wasn't considered healthy enough to work on a full album project).

Carl: wanted Brian healthy enough to work, but also wanted to work with a strong contemporary outside producer - realizing they could only achieve "Good Vibrations"-like greatness with Brian, but in the meantime settling for some mainstream hits with other peoples' material ("What You Do To Me" was originally pegged for the BBs)
Al: mentioned doing a "Party!" style album, and also possibly working with Stevie Wonder
Mike: wanted to write with Brian, but got tired of waiting for the other guys to start another project, so he did his own solo album
Bruce: wanted to do a series of singles (starting with a cover of BJ Thomas' "Rock And Roll Lullabye") until they had enough for an album

I think the gist of it is: they wanted Brian back, but like he was in the old days - they did NOT want another "Love You"-style album that would flop in the market place (nor did CBS, I'm sure). If they couldn't have "glory days" Brian, they would rather draw upon outside material (oldies or new stuff by other writers) and work with a contemporary producer with a strong track record of making hits. Bottom line: they were tired of making "duds", and would rather not do a new record unless it was certain to be a hit.

That said, and to answer the original question: in early May of 1983 (with Brian's health now solidly on the mend), news first surfaced of a planned Beach Boys studio album to be produced by Steve Levine (of Culture Club fame), with the backing tracks being recorded in the U.K., then flown over to the States where the vocals would be added.  By August of that year, contracts had been signed between CBS, Caribou, and Levine, but recording wasn't planned to start until the following summer. While it's interesting to speculate on how Dennis may have contributed to this album, his participation would, of course, have depended on his state of health, meaning chiefly whether or not he had successfully detoxified by the time recording commenced.  Given the advanced technological nature of Levine's production, any drum work on Dennis' part would likely have been digitally sampled and looped into the tracks. Dennis was reported to have been writing (or trying to) in the months leading up to his death, and as Jon Stebbins puts it, "maybe he could have croaked out a Tom Waits style thing", but all this is of course a moot point.

Thanks for this info, c-man. All very interesting.

I had no idea about "What You Do To Me" being pegged for a BB song. Were any other Carl solo tracks as well? And the flipside; I wonder if any other potential Carl solo tracks became BB tracks.

I guess the answer to my original post seems to be yes, more than likely it would have been the same album. I can't imagine the anguish that Denny would have felt if he tried to sing a studio recording at that time. So rough was his voice on the 1983 live YASB, I imagine it broke his own heart (let alone his bandmates' hearts) to hear him that way, possibly irreparably. Was Getcha Back written pre 12/28/83? I remember reading that Mike envisioned Denny as the lead vocalist.

Hmmm...I hadn't heard that last part: do you recall where you saw that? That might explain Mike handing the lead over to Christian and David in recent years, if he had envisioned someone with a deeper, less nasally approach singing it.

[CenturyDeprived]

Reading through the various interviews with the guys (Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce) from 1980-'82, they were all up for recording to varying degrees, but the impediment was Brian's health (he wasn't considered healthy enough to work on a full album project).

Carl: wanted Brian healthy enough to work, but also wanted to work with a strong contemporary outside producer - realizing they could only achieve "Good Vibrations"-like greatness with Brian, but in the meantime settling for some mainstream hits with other peoples' material ("What You Do To Me" was originally pegged for the BBs)
Al: mentioned doing a "Party!" style album, and also possibly working with Stevie Wonder
Mike: wanted to write with Brian, but got tired of waiting for the other guys to start another project, so he did his own solo album
Bruce: wanted to do a series of singles (starting with a cover of BJ Thomas' "Rock And Roll Lullabye") until they had enough for an album

I think the gist of it is: they wanted Brian back, but like he was in the old days - they did NOT want another "Love You"-style album that would flop in the market place (nor did CBS, I'm sure). If they couldn't have "glory days" Brian, they would rather draw upon outside material (oldies or new stuff by other writers) and work with a contemporary producer with a strong track record of making hits. Bottom line: they were tired of making "duds", and would rather not do a new record unless it was certain to be a hit.

That said, and to answer the original question: in early May of 1983 (with Brian's health now solidly on the mend), news first surfaced of a planned Beach Boys studio album to be produced by Steve Levine (of Culture Club fame), with the backing tracks being recorded in the U.K., then flown over to the States where the vocals would be added.  By August of that year, contracts had been signed between CBS, Caribou, and Levine, but recording wasn't planned to start until the following summer. While it's interesting to speculate on how Dennis may have contributed to this album, his participation would, of course, have depended on his state of health, meaning chiefly whether or not he had successfully detoxified by the time recording commenced.  Given the advanced technological nature of Levine's production, any drum work on Dennis' part would likely have been digitally sampled and looped into the tracks. Dennis was reported to have been writing (or trying to) in the months leading up to his death, and as Jon Stebbins puts it, "maybe he could have croaked out a Tom Waits style thing", but all this is of course a moot point.

Thanks for this info, c-man. All very interesting.

I had no idea about "What You Do To Me" being pegged for a BB song. Were any other Carl solo tracks as well? And the flipside; I wonder if any other potential Carl solo tracks became BB tracks.

I guess the answer to my original post seems to be yes, more than likely it would have been the same album. I can't imagine the anguish that Denny would have felt if he tried to sing a studio recording at that time. So rough was his voice on the 1983 live YASB, I imagine it broke his own heart (let alone his bandmates' hearts) to hear him that way, possibly irreparably. Was Getcha Back written pre 12/28/83? I remember reading that Mike envisioned Denny as the lead vocalist.

Hmmm...I hadn't heard that last part: do you recall where you saw that? That might explain Mike handing the lead over to Christian and David in recent years, if he had envisioned someone with a deeper, less nasally approach singing it.

I think this thread is where I read it:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17835.msg459586.html#msg459586

[c-man]

Wow, I'd even commented on that topic...guess I'd forgotten! So, I wonder if "having Dennis in mind" meant he was thinking of him, 'cause he'd recently passed, rather than envisioning him as a potential lead vocalist when he was still alive (assuming his rather serious voice problem was rectified)?

[CenturyDeprived]

Wow, I'd even commented on that topic...guess I'd forgotten! So, I wonder if "having Dennis in mind" meant he was thinking of him, 'cause he'd recently passed, rather than envisioning him as a potential lead vocalist when he was still alive (assuming his rather serious voice problem was rectified)?

Good question. Someone should ask Mike...

[Lonely Summer]

The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success.

Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart.

I would say that, from a songwriting perspective, that`s a slightly harsh assessment of the BB85 stuff. Aside from California Calling (And I Always Will would have been a better inclusion) they tried to do a pretty mature album but they chose the wrong producer imo. Steve Levine`s work hasn`t exactly stood the test of time well. If they were going to choose to work with somebody hot at the time then the producer of someone like U2 or The Smiths would have been a better choice than Culture Club...

But the Beach Boys always saw themselves as a pop group, so naturally they would choose someone known for making good pop - as opposed to rock, or new wave - records. I think they accomplished exactly what they set out to do - make a 1980's pop album that had elements of their classic style in it.

[Nicko1234]

The Beach Boys product had deteriorated so much during the 80s that I suppose I would have had more respect for Dennis had he not wanted to record another album (of similar stuff at least) with the Beach Boys if he had survived. If Dennis had been able to overcome his drinking problems and had Brian and Carl been up for it, perhaps they could have recorded something together or combined their forces to get the Beach Boys to do something more imaginative, rather than trying to endlessly emulate earlier success.

Their being family and friends was a strength but also IMO a weakness. It kept them together when at times they were more suited to being apart.

I would say that, from a songwriting perspective, that`s a slightly harsh assessment of the BB85 stuff. Aside from California Calling (And I Always Will would have been a better inclusion) they tried to do a pretty mature album but they chose the wrong producer imo. Steve Levine`s work hasn`t exactly stood the test of time well. If they were going to choose to work with somebody hot at the time then the producer of someone like U2 or The Smiths would have been a better choice than Culture Club...

But the Beach Boys always saw themselves as a pop group, so naturally they would choose someone known for making good pop - as opposed to rock, or new wave - records. I think they accomplished exactly what they set out to do - make a 1980's pop album that had elements of their classic style in it.

That I can understand but there is some music from the 1980s that has aged well and some that really hasn`t. I can`t really imagine that many people listening to Culture Club albums nowadays...

The production is the worst thing about BB85 imo and it is more dated than a lot of the work the band did the 60s.