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Author Topic: Carol Kaye on "Surfin' USA"...  (Read 15125 times)
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« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2014, 01:14:04 PM »

It is my, admittedly non-precise, opinion that because the majority of people out there still don't know that the band themselves played on many of their early recordings (the perception that the "wracking crow" played every session still dominates) it IS important to make sure that these credits get assigned rightly.   Assigning credit correctly is important.  It is.  
I don't think this has to be a case of impoliteness or beating up on an old lady (and I doubt this is what the Doester is doing, least I hope not), it is simply just a push for credit where credit is actually due (or Doe, if you prefer  LOL)  
I bet if someone else were claiming credit for playing bass/guitar on a session Ms. Kaye had actually played those instruments on - she herself would be crying foul too, so ya know....

I agree. I remember when I was younger, my parents (somewhat fans at the time but not really) told me that The Beach Boys didn't play on any of their hits. These are just two average fans who have this perception about the band.....and it seems to be a common perception. The record should be set straight and I don't care how it's done. The people who spout this misinformation should be called out on it.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 01:17:03 PM by rab2591 » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2014, 01:40:12 PM »

I'm 100% with Andrew on this one.

If Carol has been making false claims (apparently the case) where credit is not due concerning Beach Boys classics, shrugging it off as a who cares or picking on an older woman with a faulty memory is BS. A lot of stuff on this board is nonsense.... this however DOES diminish the Beach Boys legacy and as Stebbins pointed out the Beach Boys themselves DID play on many hit records and getting their rightfully deserved credit for it matters. Facts don't always matter, but in this case they do. If she IS wrong and has been taking credit for years as it seems....... then that is rather pathetic.

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« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2014, 01:42:12 PM »

Probably not. But, really, she doesn't have to be. As Carol has said many times, all of her claims will be proven when the Russ Wapensky book comes out. Release date - The 12th of Never.

Wapensky's contract was cancelled in 2003.
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« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2014, 01:50:10 PM »

This seems more like a pissing Match than finding real historical context at this point. We know Carol's memory is faulty, just state the facts and move on.

This isn't about memory. She says she has a union contract proving she played on The Beach Boys recording of "Surfin' USA". All she has to do to prove she is right, and many BB historians are wrong (and make me look something of a fool), is to show it to someone. It's that simple.
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« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2014, 02:05:14 PM »

She's lying but do you think she can be convinced to stop lying?
An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records? Or whether they could exist on microfiche elsewhere?

It is always better to find a non-confrontational way to find the answer, if that is possible.

I've been on youtube listening to chunks of both the Brian Wilson songwriter, and the outtakes of the Wrecking Crew.  Even if the answer is not there, it is interesting. 
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« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2014, 02:47:00 PM »

She's lying but do you think she can be convinced to stop lying?
An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records? Or whether they could exist on microfiche elsewhere?

It is always better to find a non-confrontational way to find the answer, if that is possible.

I've been on youtube listening to chunks of both the Brian Wilson songwriter, and the outtakes of the Wrecking Crew.  Even if the answer is not there, it is interesting.  

That doesn't/won't solve the basic problem of CK claiming, wrongfully, she played on SUSA. As many many others have stated, if she won't put up, she should shut up.
 But at this point, it's fairly obvious there's no way she will. Too embarassing to admit she's wrong after all this time

This seems more like a pissing Match than finding real historical context at this point. We know Carol's memory is faulty, just state the facts and move on.

I don't see ANY pissing match; I see AGD trying to set the record straight for posterity. AGD, Jon, practically everyone here has stated the facts, but "we" can't move on without getting  CK to admit her mistake, which, sadly for her, is part and parcel of getting the facts laid out to the general public
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 03:08:24 PM by bgas » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2014, 03:25:29 PM »

She's lying but do you think she can be convinced to stop lying?
An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records? Or whether they could exist on microfiche elsewhere?

It is always better to find a non-confrontational way to find the answer, if that is possible.

I've been on youtube listening to chunks of both the Brian Wilson songwriter, and the outtakes of the Wrecking Crew.  Even if the answer is not there, it is interesting.  
That doesn't/won't solve the basic problem of CK claiming, wrongfully, she played on SUSA. As many many others have stated, if she won't put up, she should shut up.
 But at this point, it's fairly obvious there's no way she will. Too embarassing to admit she's wrong after all this time
Bgas - if "independent evidence" is located, and authenticated, her claims become moot. 
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« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2014, 04:22:50 PM »

Memory...it doesn't work well for me all the time.  My time frames aren't what they used to be.  Carol USED to post occaisionally on the blue board.  This would be maybe 8 or 9 years ago?  Andrew?

At any rate something went down where she was no longer welcome to participate there.  She did or said or claimed something that didn't 'fly' and all those years of working together and all of the good will accrued was tarnished.

Could it be that there is something wrong with her?  Maybe some issues that could/should eventually be revealed and this behavior will  be excused further down the path?  sh*t happens to many of us. Cool Guy
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« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2014, 04:23:20 PM »

She's lying but do you think she can be convinced to stop lying?
An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records? Or whether they could exist on microfiche elsewhere?

It is always better to find a non-confrontational way to find the answer, if that is possible.

I've been on youtube listening to chunks of both the Brian Wilson songwriter, and the outtakes of the Wrecking Crew.  Even if the answer is not there, it is interesting.  
That doesn't/won't solve the basic problem of CK claiming, wrongfully, she played on SUSA. As many many others have stated, if she won't put up, she should shut up.
 But at this point, it's fairly obvious there's no way she will. Too embarassing to admit she's wrong after all this time
Bgas - if "independent evidence" is located, and authenticated, her claims become moot. 

As this thread suggests, independent evidence has de-legitimized several of her claims already, but that hasn't stopped her from making them as far as I'm aware.
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« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2014, 04:37:06 PM »

She's lying but do you think she can be convinced to stop lying?
An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records? Or whether they could exist on microfiche elsewhere?

It is always better to find a non-confrontational way to find the answer, if that is possible.

I've been on youtube listening to chunks of both the Brian Wilson songwriter, and the outtakes of the Wrecking Crew.  Even if the answer is not there, it is interesting.  
That doesn't/won't solve the basic problem of CK claiming, wrongfully, she played on SUSA. As many many others have stated, if she won't put up, she should shut up.
 But at this point, it's fairly obvious there's no way she will. Too embarassing to admit she's wrong after all this time
Bgas - if "independent evidence" is located, and authenticated, her claims become moot. 

As this thread suggests, independent evidence has de-legitimized several of her claims already, but that hasn't stopped her from making them as far as I'm aware.

Correct!  And she has the bigger voice/notoriety for spreading 
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« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2014, 08:38:15 PM »

Belligerent ?

Where, exactly ?

If I were Carol Kaye I would find the following quite challenging and confrontational. It's belligerant in the sense that you come across somewhat like a prize fighter goading his opponent into the ring:

So, to settle this once and for all, I call on her to post this contract on her site - or here - and prove her claim, and prove me wrong

It strikes me that historical inaccuracy seems to be one of your biggest bugbears.
Well...yes. When one is an historian that tends to be the case.

Does one also value context too?
f*** yes. That's why I care deeply about setting the record straight regarding who really played on the records... precisely because it enhances context while loving the music.
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« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2014, 09:06:21 PM »

Belligerent ?

Where, exactly ?

If I were Carol Kaye I would find the following quite challenging and confrontational. It's belligerant in the sense that you come across somewhat like a prize fighter goading his opponent into the ring:

So, to settle this once and for all, I call on her to post this contract on her site - or here - and prove her claim, and prove me wrong

It strikes me that historical inaccuracy seems to be one of your biggest bugbears.
Well...yes. When one is an historian that tends to be the case.

Does one also value context too?
f*** yes. That's why I care deeply about setting the record straight regarding who really played on the records... precisely because it enhances context while loving the music.

For the record (pun definitely intended) - Jon, Andrew, and I are are all of one mind when it comes to this.
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« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2014, 09:20:52 PM »

That's all fine and good, but what are you guys going to do to put this to rest?  Let's get down to brass tacks instead of chattering about it and continually bouncing it all around on a public forum. 
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« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2014, 01:06:18 AM »

I wouldn't go so far as to say she's LYING -- what would she have to gain? I will forever maintain that she's simply played on so many sessions over the decades that they're a blur to her and she may honestly believe she was on the ones she wasn't.

What does bug me, though, is that she is so stubborn about it....again, to the point that she has actually sent lawyers out to attack those who question her.

Exactly.

The problem is that her version of things sticks. A friend of mine who is deep into jazz once said to me: "Hey, I've just watched this TV documentary and had to think of you. I didn't know it was Carol Kaye who played bass on 'Good Vibrations'!" I then had to explain to him what has already been stated in this thread, that none of her takes were used in the final version.


Glen Campbell said he played on 5 different sessions of Good Vibrations (that he knows of). It has been determined that it wasn't the case. Speculation is that he was "egged on" by the interviewer to say that. Obviously he wouldn't remember it today......

This is a mean joke, and I'm indignant at myself that it made me grin! Shocked
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« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2014, 01:53:37 AM »

She's lying but do you think she can be convinced to stop lying?
An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records?

There's an AFM contract listing the musicians for that session as Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike & David.
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« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2014, 01:59:24 AM »

Memory...it doesn't work well for me all the time.  My time frames aren't what they used to be.  Carol USED to post occaisionally on the blue board.  This would be maybe 8 or 9 years ago?  Andrew?

Fourteen. She stormed off when several posters, myself included, politely pointed out that her claim that Ray Pohlman didn't play on a Pet Sounds track was contradicted by the AFM contract, the box set liners and the session extracts therein. When I quoted said contract I was accused of stealing it.
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« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2014, 02:37:33 AM »

That's all fine and good, but what are you guys going to do to put this to rest?  Let's get down to brass tacks instead of chattering about it and continually bouncing it all around on a public forum. 

Done. I've posted here, which she monitors, requesting the supporting documentation be posted, or shown to someone. All she needs to do to make me look a complete tool, and re-rewrite BB history by proving her claim is to comply. Work of minutes, if not seconds. Then I unreservedly apologise, and we move on.
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« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2014, 04:17:59 AM »

An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records?
There's an AFM contract listing the musicians for that session as Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike & David.

And, there's Frank Devito's recollection of playing on the session with The Beach Boys (not other session players) - Devito was paid with a check from Murry, hence the absence of his name from the AFM contract - plus David's recollection of playing on the session (rhythm, plus the descending low staccato slides in the fade), and his clear recollection of playing the date with Devito, and his assertion that Carol Kaye never played a Beach Boys session while he was with the group. Finally, at the end of the unfaded "Surfin' U.S.A." session tape, Brian's voice can be heard in the background exclaiming, "That's it, Carl got it!" - obviously indicating his pleasure with Carl's guitar solo.
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« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2014, 06:48:20 AM »

An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records?
There's an AFM contract listing the musicians for that session as Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike & David.

And, there's Frank Devito's recollection of playing on the session with The Beach Boys (not other session players) - Devito was paid with a check from Murry, hence the absence of his name from the AFM contract - plus David's recollection of playing on the session (rhythm, plus the descending low staccato slides in the fade), and his clear recollection of playing the date with Devito, and his assertion that Carol Kaye never played a Beach Boys session while he was with the group. Finally, at the end of the unfaded "Surfin' U.S.A." session tape, Brian's voice can be heard in the background exclaiming, "That's it, Carl got it!" - obviously indicating his pleasure with Carl's guitar solo.

There's only one vowel difference between Carl and Carol.

Just sayin'....

 Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2014, 07:20:35 AM »

An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records?
There's an AFM contract listing the musicians for that session as Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike & David.

And, there's Frank Devito's recollection of playing on the session with The Beach Boys (not other session players) - Devito was paid with a check from Murry, hence the absence of his name from the AFM contract - plus David's recollection of playing on the session (rhythm, plus the descending low staccato slides in the fade), and his clear recollection of playing the date with Devito, and his assertion that Carol Kaye never played a Beach Boys session while he was with the group. Finally, at the end of the unfaded "Surfin' U.S.A." session tape, Brian's voice can be heard in the background exclaiming, "That's it, Carl got it!" - obviously indicating his pleasure with Carl's guitar solo.

There's only one vowel difference between Carl and Carol.

Just sayin'....

 Smiley
I was thinking the same thing. Let's listen to that session tape, it could be a game-changer!   LOL

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« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2014, 07:44:22 AM »

An issue might be, whether there is some alternative means of verifying "independently" whether the band members played on this.  Is it possible the union kept any kind of records?
There's an AFM contract listing the musicians for that session as Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike & David.
And, there's Frank Devito's recollection of playing on the session with The Beach Boys (not other session players) - Devito was paid with a check from Murry, hence the absence of his name from the AFM contract - plus David's recollection of playing on the session (rhythm, plus the descending low staccato slides in the fade), and his clear recollection of playing the date with Devito, and his assertion that Carol Kaye never played a Beach Boys session while he was with the group. Finally, at the end of the unfaded "Surfin' U.S.A." session tape, Brian's voice can be heard in the background exclaiming, "That's it, Carl got it!" - obviously indicating his pleasure with Carl's guitar solo.
There's only one vowel difference between Carl and Carol.

Just sayin'....

 Smiley
I was thinking the same thing. Let's listen to that session tape, it could be a game-changer!   LOL
Thanks to Andrew and c-man for that info.  

First, it is refuted by "Devito," paid separately by Murry.  Second, an AFM contract.  It that was in someone's possession, or otherwise locatable, and scanned, and perhaps even posted (after having been appropriately "redacted") that document should be all that would be necessary to extinguish this nonsense.  Third, David's recollection.

Claiming that work does diminish the contributions of a then 14 year old (David) and a 16 year old (Carl.) Both minors.  

This is notwithstanding the fact that as a woman, in that era, she was sort of a pioneer, and deserves recognition for "what she did." However, not for "what someone else did."  

No one can take that feminist legacy from her, but those "young" Beach Boys shouldn't lose this authentication, either.

Sort of taking candy from a baby, retrospectively.  Just sayin'... Wink
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 07:46:51 AM by filledeplage » Logged
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« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2014, 07:47:53 AM »

The AFM sheet has been published, by Stephen McParland.
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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2014, 07:48:23 AM »

That's all fine and good, but what are you guys going to do to put this to rest?  Let's get down to brass tacks instead of chattering about it and continually bouncing it all around on a public forum.  

Done. I've posted here, which she monitors, requesting the supporting documentation be posted, or shown to someone. All she needs to do to make me look a complete tool, and re-rewrite BB history by proving her claim is to comply. Work of minutes, if not seconds. Then I unreservedly apologise, and we move on.

Good. And FWIW, maybe a couple of e-mails to her from fans wouldn't hurt, referencing this board if she hasn't seen it already. Seems to me the original AFM sheet tells the whole story already, unless she can produce some other "union contract" which would supplement the AFM info and create more confusion. I mean, the AFM IS a union contract! I think you're safe from being a Tool, AGD.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 07:49:51 AM by Mikie » Logged

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what shes like, and I can feel how right shed be for me. Its weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what shes picking up from me. I hope its good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2014, 07:52:30 AM »

The AFM sheet has been published, by Stephen McParland.
Thanks, Andrew, I didn't know that. 

But it does sounds like very credible evidence. 

The kind that is hard to refute.
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« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2014, 08:00:34 AM »

Glen Campbell said he played on 5 different sessions of Good Vibrations (that he knows of). It has been determined that it wasn't the case. Speculation is that he was "egged on" by the interviewer to say that. Obviously he wouldn't remember it today......

This is a mean joke, and I'm indignant at myself that it made me grin! Shocked

It's not a joke at all. Glen states it in the American Band video. What I was trying to say is that (disregarding that he currently has Alzheimer's) that his answer might be different today concerning his belief that he played on GV. Or maybe not. Maybe somebody told him he did and he went with it.

P.S. No, Alzheimer's is nothing to joke about!
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what shes like, and I can feel how right shed be for me. Its weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what shes picking up from me. I hope its good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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