Does the on stage talent level of the BB's piss you off?

[I. Spaceman]

Well, John, watching and listening to the Beach Boys tells me something, and it may tell you something else. It tells me I am a fan.

I am answering the question, Hungrywhoeveryouare. Wrong, totally and completely wrong, in my estimation. Dennis Wilson is real rock and roll. Session musicians, for the most part, aren't. To be honest, I wish Brian had never used Blaine. He didn't even use him well, as Spector and Jan Berry did. How's that for controversy?

Brian spearheaded and rehearsed the band for the Michigan and Hawaii shows. They sounded horrible at both. Brian told Denny to play that way. Soft and with no power. So why would such emphasis be placed upon Brian using session musicians? Obviously he was fallible, as the BB's worst shows were under his baton.

[GETTINHUNGRY]

then why don't we discus why they sounded terrible at these two shows.  it certainly was NOT Brian's fault.  it is about the touring band as a whole.  it is not really Dennis' fault either. However  No one is ever going to convince me that Dennis was a great drummer.

[windchimes]

Dennis Wilson is real rock and roll. Session musicians, for the most part, aren't.

Huh, did Denny play drums on "Slip On Through" Cause if not, that is rockin! And if the house isnt rockin, dont bother knockin.

[I. Spaceman]

then why don't we discus why they sounded terrible at these two shows.  it certainly was NOT Brian's fault.  it is about the touring band as a whole.  it is not really Dennis' fault either. However  No one is ever going to convince me that Dennis was a great drummer.

More nails in the coffin of what this board used to be.

[windchimes]

[Sheriff John Stone]

Well, John, watching and listening to the Beach Boys tells me something, and it may tell you something else. It tells me I am a fan.

I am answering the question, Hungrywhoeveryouare. Wrong, totally and completely wrong, in my estimation. Dennis Wilson is real rock and roll. Session musicians, for the most part, aren't. To be honest, I wish Brian had never used Blaine. He didn't even use him well, as Spector and Jan Berry did. How's that for controversy?

Brian spearheaded and rehearsed the band for the Michigan and Hawaii shows. They sounded horrible at both. Brian told Denny to play that way. Soft and with no power. So why would such emphasis be placed upon Brian using session musicians? Obviously he was fallible, as the BB's worst shows were under his baton.

That's your opinion, Ian. Your opinion, interspersed with some facts, but an opinion nevertheless. And I respect it. A lot. But you're still missing the issue.

The issue is that windchimes has a different opinion, interspersed with some facts, and I respect his opinion too. I don't agree with everything he says, but I believe him when he says he's a fan. But you can be a fan, participate on a message board, and still be critical of the group.

[I. Spaceman]

Describing one of the band's most beloved members' work as "horrible" and "nauseating" is a bit much though, don't you think, John?

[Sheriff John Stone]

Describing one of the band's most beloved members' work as "horrible" and "nauseating" is a bit much though, don't you think, John?

In my opinion, yes, it is a bit much.

[windchimes]

Dennis is my least favorite Beach Boy. DO I think he really fit in with the other band members? No. But I guess that is why I love them so much. Yeah, I really dont like the way dennis cracks his voice on "In the back of my mind" I will say that his vocal on "Slip On Through" or "Got To Know the Woman" is bad ass. Fo sho!

[I. Spaceman]

Oh, HELL yes, negro. 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Yeah, I think it's a little much to say things like that.  Obviously we're going to have different opinions, and goodness knows I've had some critical words to say about everybody, but I've learned to say things like "I don't like Bob Lizik's bass sound" rather than "Bob Lizik is a terrible bassist."

And I don't think it's necessary to think Dennis is a "good drummer."  Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, maybe the Beach Boys were terrible at times, maybe not.  That stuff is opinion.  Getting pissed off about something like that is just a reason to either find something else to listen to, go take a walk, or learn how to get less pissed off about things, I guess.

[MBE]

Dave, Ricky and Blondie were very good but were not there long enough to evolve much. Bruce was an asset from 65-72 but not when he rejoined. Carl was always good before Dennis died except for the 77-8 period. He sparkled at times after 83 but became more and more lost in the background. Brian and Dennis were great before 76 and 77 respectively, and Al was always good. Mike well he was funny in a laugh at him instead of with him kind of way. He did have a lot of energy though the 70s and at least through 1973 was trying to add something modern. To go into depth. The Beach Boys from 1962-4 improved with every passing month. Brian said that Dennis came into his own in 1963 and I go with that. I think the improvement in all the guys from One Man's Challenge to the TAMI show is huge. Even the improvement from the "Lost" concert to TAMI show is noticeable. Even at they start they were entertaining.  Primitive? That is why I like them. Rock and Roll to me is not about technical issues, its about soul and they had it. By the TAMI show they were really rockin' hard and were truly electric. Now I think Brian did have a say in the live shows until but he never told them to exactly replicate his records. He arranged the studio and live renditions quite differently. Besides even as early as 1963 Carl was the on stage leader. Bruce or Glen never had Brian's charisma. If Brian from 1976 on was not with it on stage (though his solo shows and a few from 77 are pretty nice), the shows he played from 1961-71 truly benefited from his presence. I like the Hawaii shows. Sloppy sure, but a lot of fun, and even if they are loose, his vocals and keyboard parts are coming from a man who is having a great time.  I like the laid back shows because of they took an artistic gamble. By the way American Band shows Brian playing bass on stage in Hawaii, and I think it was on Heroes. The 68-70 shows are tight, and to me, have a lot more depth then what came before. That doesn't mean they are any better to hear, but there is more variety.  Despite the tune-ups I have to agree with most people and say the 71-3 shows are the best without Brian. I like Dennis' drumming more then Ricky's myself but Fataar and Chaplin, along with a more upfront Dennis, added a youthful vigor The Beach Boys would never again possess. From 1974-6 the shows were usually still good rock and roll but only the Beachago tour had the artistic risks of old. I don't think they were any less entertaining, but they were more predictable. After 1976 things sucked at times, The Wilson’s weren’t always good by 1977-8 because of dope, and though Carl again became consistent in 1979, his brothers never did. Yet when he was on Dennis still gave the group moments of power. Dennis' raw spirit and feel are what made The Beach Boys a great live band. Take Dennis away and you take the b..ls away. Carl had a lot of rock and roll spirit himself, but with the exception of the 1993 tour Mike led the post Dennis band. The Beach Boys rarely displeased a crowd (even after the real band ended) but outside of a few choice tunes there was little to distinguish one show from another. Each year getting further away from authenticity.

[I. Spaceman]

Dave, Ricky and Blondie were very good but were not there long enough to evolve much. Bruce was an asset from 65-72 but not when he rejoined. Carl was always good before Dennis died except for the 77-8 period. He sparkeled at times after 83 but became more and more lost in the background. Brian and Dennis were great before 76 and 77 respectively, and Al was always good. Mike well he was funny in a laught at him instead of with him kind of  way. He did have a lot of energy though the 70s and at least through 1973 was trying to add something modern. To go into depth. The Beach Boys from 1962-4 improved with every passing month. Brian said that Dennis came into his own in 1963 and I go with that. I think the improvement in all the guys from One Man's Challenge to the TAMI show is huge. Even the improvement from the "Lost" concert to TAMI show is noticeable. Even at they start they were entertaining.  Primitive? That is why I like them. Rock and Roll to me is not about technical issues, its about should and they had it. By the TAMI show they were really rockin' hard and were truly electric. Now I think Brian did have a say in the live shows until but he never told them to exactly replicate his records. He arranged the studio and live renditions quite differently. Besides even as early as 1963 Carl was the on stage leader. Bruce or Glen never had Brian's charisma. If Brian from 1976 on was not with it on stage (though his solo shows and a few from 77 are pretty nice), the shows he played from 1961-71 truly benefited from his presence. I like the Hawaii shows. Sloppy sure, but a lot of fun, and even if they are loose his vocals and keyboard parts are coming from a man who is having a great time. I like the laid back shows because of they took an artistic gamble. The 68-70 shows are tight, and to me, have a lot more depth then what came before. That doesn't mean they are any better to hear, but there is more variety.  Despite the tune-ups I have to agree with most people and say the 71-3 shows are the best without Brian. I like Dennis' drumming more then Ricky's myself but Fataar and Chaplin, along with a more upfront Dennis, added a youthful vigor The Beach Boys would never again possess. From 1974-6 they shows were usually still good rock and roll but only the Beachago tour had the artistic risks of old. I don't think they were any less entertaining, but they were more predictable After 1976 things sucked at times, The Wilson’s weren’t always good by 1977-8 because of dope, and though Carl again became consistent in 1979, his brothers never did. Yet when he was on Dennis still gave the group moments of power. Dennis' raw spirit and feel are what made The Beach Boys a great live band. Take Dennis away and you take the b..ls away. Carl had a lot of rock and roll spirit himself, but with the exception of the 1993 tour Mike led the post Dennis band. The Beach Boys rarely displeased a crowd (even after the real band ended) but outside of a few choice tunes there was little to distinguish one show from another. Each year getting further away from authenticity.

Wow, that was an entirely accurate and enlightening post. Bravo!

[Jeff Mason]

Dennis Wilson is real rock and roll. Session musicians, for the most part, aren't.

Huh, did Denny play drums on "Slip On Through" Cause if not, that is rockin! And if the house isnt rockin, dont bother knockin.

Neither Denny nor a true session musician: Dennis Dragon, brother of Daryl Dragon, and occasional road drummer for the Beach Boys (he is on Syracuse 1971) played that part.  It is a distinctive set of fills that he plays.

[Jeff Mason]

then why don't we discus why they sounded terrible at these two shows.  it certainly was NOT Brian's fault.  it is about the touring band as a whole.  it is not really Dennis' fault either. However  No one is ever going to convince me that Dennis was a great drummer.

Let's see here --

Brian was at both shows.
Brian actually played in Hawaii, but Bruce was not there and Brian insisted on playing only organ.  So Al and Carl had to squeeze in playing an unfamiliar instrument as well as singing at the Hawaii shows.
That organ sounded awful on songs like Surfin.

It may not be ALL Brian's fault but his impact cannot be discounted.

I said it before, I say it again -- I lay the fault at Bruce's feet for the change.  Maybe Brian told them to tone it down, but they pretty much had to anyway.  Badman's book does a great job at describing the way in which Bruce joined the band.  He had never before played the bass and learned it from scratch while he and Glen Campbell toured together.  Bruce may have done some rock productions but he has admitted that he is not much of a rocker (as if his solo album didn't prove that).  So he was not as aggressive as Brian.

Anyone faulting the BB playing as a band -- I urge you to seek out a track that was released for a very short time in Australia.  It was recorded at Sydney in 1964 and it is amazing to hear today for those who think of the band as a poor performer.  The band plays Ray Charles' "What'd I Say."  All *five* members shine instrumentally.  That's right, five -- Mike not only plays his sax but adds a significant contribution to a propulsive groove.  Denny and Brian go nuts and push the band as hard as they can, and Carl and Al are able and willing on guitars.  You can't ask much more than that.  Makes me wish Mike had been serious about being a true musician -- the band could have been great live as just the core 5.

[Cam Mott]

The BBs were such crap live musicians througout their 40+ years of touring that they never lasted as a live group and that's a fact. 

[Dancing Bear]

I said it before, I say it again -- I lay the fault at Bruce's feet for the change.  Maybe Brian told them to tone it down, but they pretty much had to anyway.  Badman's book does a great job at describing the way in which Bruce joined the band.  He had never before played the bass and learned it from scratch while he and Glen Campbell toured together.  Bruce may have done some rock productions but he has admitted that he is not much of a rocker (as if his solo album didn't prove that).  So he was not as aggressive as Brian.

If Bruce was a mediocre bass player, wouldn't the band try to play louder to compensate for it, instead of toning down guitars and drums so that the whole audience could pay attention to the bass lines?

[Jeff Mason]

I said it before, I say it again -- I lay the fault at Bruce's feet for the change.  Maybe Brian told them to tone it down, but they pretty much had to anyway.  Badman's book does a great job at describing the way in which Bruce joined the band.  He had never before played the bass and learned it from scratch while he and Glen Campbell toured together.  Bruce may have done some rock productions but he has admitted that he is not much of a rocker (as if his solo album didn't prove that).  So he was not as aggressive as Brian.

If Bruce was a mediocre bass player, wouldn't the band try to play louder to compensate for it, instead of toning down guitars and drums so that the whole audience could pay attention to the bass lines?

I didn't say "mediocre" I said less aggressive.  Bruce could hit the notes and play in time, no question.  But he was tamer, less raw, less agressive.  He covered the parts but without intensity or passion.  I can hear the diff clearly in 1967 in Washington, and of course it is far more obvious once Ed Carter was in the fold.  Bruce probably can play the bass in a technical sense better than Brian, but Brian at his best felt the rock style better than Bruce.

[Dancing Bear]

I said it before, I say it again -- I lay the fault at Bruce's feet for the change.  Maybe Brian told them to tone it down, but they pretty much had to anyway.  Badman's book does a great job at describing the way in which Bruce joined the band.  He had never before played the bass and learned it from scratch while he and Glen Campbell toured together.  Bruce may have done some rock productions but he has admitted that he is not much of a rocker (as if his solo album didn't prove that).  So he was not as aggressive as Brian.

If Bruce was a mediocre bass player, wouldn't the band try to play louder to compensate for it, instead of toning down guitars and drums so that the whole audience could pay attention to the bass lines?

I didn't say "mediocre" I said less aggressive.  Bruce could hit the notes and play in time, no question.  But he was tamer, less raw, less agressive.  He covered the parts but without intensity or passion.  I can hear the diff clearly in 1967 in Washington, and of course it is far more obvious once Ed Carter was in the fold.  Bruce probably can play the bass in a technical sense better than Brian, but Brian at his best felt the rock style better than Bruce.

I didn't mean to overstate Bruce's ability in his first months as a Beach Boy. Hitting the right notes but not provinding the right punch on the strings may not be BAD playing, but it is mediocre. My point is, I don't agree that the band sterted to tone down the arrangements because the new bass player wasn't ideal for the job. There was something else IMO. Carl or/and Brian wanted it to sound that way.

[donald]

Live in the early seventies was the best if you want to hear technically good livbe BeachBoys.  Listen to Ricky on Drums on H&V live.  Listen to Wonderbill on EH.

I saw a lot of live acts in the seventies and NONE, I repeat...NONE were better than the Beachboys. 

Comparing the body of work that is the BeachBoys to a one trick pony blues player from the 80's is like  comparing  Billie Holiday to Beyonce or Mariah Carey...or Drew Carey for that matter.

As for the Band in the 80's, this is the decade when I saw them at least yearly.  They were good some years and not so good at other times.  But they were most excellent on a number of occasions. 

The 1st couple of years following Carl Wilson's return after solo touring
contained numerous stellar performances of old, new, and solo material.  And this was a time of Ed Carter, Mike Meros, Jeff Foskett and company....so there was no shortage of backup talent.

[Emdeeh]

Being honest about the fact that the Beach Boys were not a great live band does not make us unloyal fans.  why could'nt the Beach Boys perform better live?  That is the ral question.

It's not a FACT that the Beach Boys were or were not a great live band. That is an OPINION only.

OK, rant over. 

[jazzfascist]

Live in the early seventies was the best if you want to hear technically good livbe BeachBoys.  Listen to Ricky on Drums on H&V live.  Listen to Wonderbill on EH.

I saw a lot of live acts in the seventies and NONE, I repeat...NONE were better than the Beachboys. 

What about "Who - Live At Leeds" of course it isn't the same kind of music, but if BBs had had those musical chops, they would have been a truly great live band.

Søren

[donald]

I wasn't thinking of the WHO as seventies live.  I saw the Who  in early Summer 1970 (there goes my age) doing much the same show and material as Leeds,    and they were indeed awsome.  I stand corrected.

But that music isn't really comparable to the Beachboys. 

The Beachboys bass and drum section wouldn't hold a candle to Entwhistle and Moon.  But the songs of Pete Townsend, while most entertaining and excellent, are not the things of beauty crafted by Brian and performed by the band. 

On the other hand, the music was just too good to be replicated on the road by anything less than a group of studio musicians...the same guys who played on the records.

This was the problem with early motown live recordings.  James and Benny weren't there for the road shows.

But the Blondie Ricky was unique in that the road band performed so well.

But I digress.

[mikee]

I saw the 1973 band’s show, with Denny up front. At the 1973 show I was initially a little disappointed that Dennis was not the drummer.  This band and the show, though, exceeded my expectations, which were fairly high.  Subsequently I saw the BB’s, with Brian, on New Years 1976-77 with Denny on drums. What really got my attention at seeing Denny on drums at the 76-77 show is that, to my eyes, he played left-handed.  I’ve only seen one other lefty professional drummer.  Having witnessed Dennis in both roles, I preferred him up front where he basically co-hosted the show with Mike, and sang a lot more. To me, his strongest asset was his personality and ability to connect and communicate with the audience. Up front was where he was able to do that best.  Actually, I feel that (Denny up front) played no small part of the success of the 73-74 live band show but I never hear it mentioned.  I also think that 73-74 touring band played no small role in the resurgence in record sales and in respect for the Beach Boys that occured at this time.  In a front man role, Dennis could have always taken a turn at the drums, (ala Don Henley), for selected songs.  I think that would have worked well.   
Denny drove his Mom over to the 1973  Phoenix, Az. Show, I’m referring to.  This was  about the time that Murry passed away.  Towards the end of the show, Dennis introduced her to the audience and then, sang “You Are So Beautiful To Me” to his Mom right there in front of him.  It was unforgettable and I believe that it was one of Dennis’s greatest moments.

[donald]

Dennis could have easily functioned as a front man such as Don Henley on later material.   

It would have meant including more Dennis material which might not have been  accepted by those wanting to hear the traditional BB hits and harmony.