Is this for real?!

[Jeff Mason]

I better stop posting to this board and listening to the band -- because if they are "cool", and I am not "cool" but a geek, I have to bail.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, you are well aware that because something is more accessible i.e., radio-friendy, it does not mean it is any more artistically successful. What is pleasant to people's ears on the radio is a whole other world than we are in on this board.
You think The Beach Boys are better than Miles Davis? If so, do you ascribe that to chart statistics?

The Beach Boys are the better Pop group just as Mike is the better Pop lyricist and Brian is the better Pop composer, so say the numbers which are the measure in Pop music. You and I may continue to like whatever we like.

[I. Spaceman]

the numbers which are the measure in Pop music

Of sales, not quality.
If you believe they are one and the same, you must dig the Beatles far more than the Beach Boys. They have sold many, many more records than the Beach Boys ever will.
Pop is a sound that got the classification because the smooth sound was one that appealed to most white audiences. Homogenised. Clean. Pop does not mean most popular. It's a style of music.
Your semantics are as usual, very off the mark and annoying.

[the captain]

For annoying, how about this: I HAVE to note that there is no reason to capitalize "pop" (when it isn't the first word of the sentence). And yes, that actually drives me nuts. I'm that much of a fucking nerd.

[Jeff Mason]

By Cam's definition:

"Sugar Shack" is a better song than "Little Deuce Coupe" or "Surfer Girl", all three of which were released in 1963.  The former was the biggest hit of that year.

By Cam's definition:

The single greatest song of the 70's was "You Light Up My Life" by Debby Boone.  It was the best selling song of the 70's.

By Cam's definition:

Thriller is the best album of original music ever recorded.  The best compilation was Eagles Greatest Hits Volume 1.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Sales are the only thing that we can use to objectively judge a record, though.  Since the "goodness" and "quality" of a recording will always be mostly subjective, if an objective judgement of a record is needed, we have to go to sales.  So, going by that, in a sense one could say Mike was the best lyric writer for the BB.  Best at facilitating moving units, at least, and again, that's all we have that is indisputable.

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Jack Reiley -- I really like a ton of his songs, and I think if you wanna talk about a lyricist that doesn't get his fair shakes, its HIM. Listen to Steamboat or Trader or any of those -- hoo boy, those are good stuff.

Yes, I agree with that!  Long Promised Road and Fourth Of July along with those two

[Jeff Mason]

Sales are the only thing that we can use to objectively judge a record, though.  Since the "goodness" and "quality" of a recording will always be mostly subjective, if an objective judgement of a record is needed, we have to go to sales.  So, going by that, in a sense one could say Mike was the best lyric writer for the BB.  Best at facilitating moving units, at least, and again, that's all we have that is indisputable.

I can't do that.  One of my favorite albums ever is Village Green Preservation Society.  In its first run it didn't make the Top 200 and sold less than 50,000 copies.  I think Sunflower outperformed it.  And so are we to say that on sales it is one of the Kinks' worst?  Or for that matter, is Sunflower one of the Beach Boys' worst?


Sales may be "objective" in that it is measurable, but it tells you NOTHING about how good a record really is.  And so what if there is no objective measure?  You like what you like, and that's all that matters.

[the captain]

Jack Reiley -- I really like a ton of his songs, and I think if you wanna talk about a lyricist that doesn't get his fair shakes, its HIM. Listen to Steamboat or Trader or any of those -- hoo boy, those are good stuff.

Yes, I agree with that!  Long Promised Road and Fourth Of July along with those two

I have no idea what you said. Your yellow hurts my eyes.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Sales may be "objective" in that it is measurable, but it tells you NOTHING about how good a record really is.  And so what if there is no objective measure?  You like what you like, and that's all that matters.

Well, sales tell you how good a record is at making people want to buy it.  But of course you're correct that you like what you like, but individual taste doesn't tell you how good a record really is either, unless it's your own taste.

[rb]

Maybe less important than what you like is why you like.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Maybe less important than what you like is why you like.

Less important, perhaps, but way more fascinating to people like me that are prone to needless psychoanalysis.

[rb]

Maybe less important than what you like is why you like.

Less important, perhaps, but way more fascinating to people like me that are prone to needless psychoanalysis.

Y'know, I honestly meant to say "More important", not less. And psychoanalysis is never needless - not for this cowboy, at any rate.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Well, there you go.

So, why do you think we like what we like?

[Jeff Mason]

Sales may be "objective" in that it is measurable, but it tells you NOTHING about how good a record really is.  And so what if there is no objective measure?  You like what you like, and that's all that matters.

Well, sales tell you how good a record is at making people want to buy it.  But of course you're correct that you like what you like, but individual taste doesn't tell you how good a record really is either, unless it's your own taste.

Look at it this way:  I know that you love the Wild Honey album, but that was a poor seller compared to other BB albums of the 60's.  And I know that you will still to this day say that it was a good mix away from being an all time classic.  Poor sales did not affect your opinion.

One fan's taste may not say much.  Lots of fans saying the same thing?  More informative.

[Daniel S.]

So, Mr. Aeijtzsche and Mr. Spaceman - do you guys like:

1. The Girl From New York City
2. Amusement Parks U.S.A.
3. Then I Kissed Her
4. Salt Lake City

?

People usually use those songs as a way to put down 'Summer Days(And Summer Nights!!)'

[Cam Mott]

One fan's taste may not say much.  Lots of fans saying the same thing?  More informative.

Exactly why sales are objective, the consensus of individual's subjective taste.  You guys don't really think you speak for the entire Pop appreciating public do you? You keep harping on your personal taste.

[Daniel S.]

You guys don't really think you speak for the entire Pop appreciating public do you?

Excuse me Mr. Mott, but WE are connoisseurs of Pop.

[the captain]

Damnit, it's pop, not Pop.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

So, Mr. Aeijtzsche and Mr. Spaceman - do you guys like:

1. The Girl From New York City
2. Amusement Parks U.S.A.
3. Then I Kissed Her
4. Salt Lake City

SLC is in my top 10 favourite Beach Boys songs.  Girl from NYC is a great track, I love the vocals and it's an unusual track for Brian in some ways.  Amusement Parks is another great backing track that would be hailed universally if it were about melancholia and bittersweet young adult love.  Then I Kissed her isn't my favourite, but it's a neat example of Brian taking a big wrecking crew type production and using the boys to recreate it.

Pop is capitalized in all instances because it is a deity to some.

[the captain]

Exactly why sales are objective, the consensus of individual's subjective taste.

The thing is, I doubt that sales are either objective or the consensus of individuals' subjective taste. Not really. Unless you account for manufactured taste by marketing. Taste isn't individual for the majority of the market, and people are, of course, a market. Pop sales are, realistically, the dozen or so acts the company (or are there TWO companies, still? I forget...) pushes. And that's all. Leaving everyone else marginalized to chat about what the definition of "Pop" or pop is, and whether Dennis was a good drummer, on website like this.

Pardon me. I'm going to sober up now.

[the captain]

Pop is capitalized in all instances because it is a deity to some.

Then I'm going to begin capitalizing Alcohol and Pizza.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Amen.

[Daniel S.]

If you wanted to get more specific, we're talking about 1960's Pop Music. Which is more of a musical style in the mold of the Beach Boys, Beatles, Phil Spector, Monkees, Zombies, etc. That's what I think of anway, not what had the most sales.

[rb]

So, why do you think we like what we like?

Such a deep and all-encompassing question deserves a flip and superficial answer, and you're gonna get one. It would be easy enough to say that we are nothing but our likes and dislikes, and that they define us. That would reduce our personalities to a series of tics, though - not a nice way to look at people. I could only tell you why I like what I like. If talking about the Beach Boys, I like them because I'm a weenie. One look at my avatar will tell you this. Really, any good music fulfills some primal need, I'm guessing. You can sing along with it, do the electric boogaloo to it, take a dump to it. Perhaps it reminds you of your favorite meal - steak, Heinekin and birthday cake, for example. Maybe your brain links certain music to what you heard when you were an infant - when your emotions were forming. Love, hatred, anger, hunger, communication, putting the universe in some kind of order - as long as it can make you feel on a deeper-than-conscious level, you'll probably want more of it.