The John Lennon Peace, Love, and Appreciation Thread

[alf wiedersehen]

In the words of the great Harry Nilsson:

"You see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear."

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Dig.

[Ron]

However, I do think that McCartney is capable of a great deal of depth:

"Give my regards to Broad Street " reveals who McCartney really is. Talented and vain  but not too deep.

However, I do think that McCartney is capable of a great deal of depth: For No One, She's Leaving Home, Another Day, for examples are really eloquent character portraits.

 I am speaking relatively about Paul. Sure, Paul had some depth, but,  no way is he as deep as John or George. Heck. George was probably the deepest Beatle of all.  At least when George got involved in movies he decided to give financial backing to " The Life of Brian " as opposed to a vanity piece like Paul's rubbish of a movie.
 I already stated that Paul was very talented....... the best musician in the Beatles........ but he still came in third place in the depth department.

A lot of people see 'depth' as pretentious.  Many people strive to NOT be seen as 'deep'. 

Paul gave me as much to think about with "Silly Love Songs" , as John did with "Working Class Hero"

  I do not for one minute believe George or John were pretentious. Quite the contrary.
Whatever floats your boat if you find a lot of wisdom in " Silly Love Songs"

George would roll over in his grave if he thought people were calling him "Deep"... it's completely against everything he stood for spiritually, he would never claim to know more than someone else or that his voice was more 'deep' or introspective than anyone's, least of which his good friend Paul McCartney. 

I posted a clip above of what John thought of being called "Deep".  He said if he had a good sh*t he's write a song about it.  He literally said that, on the clip above.  He said his songs are just words that sound cool, everybody does it, he just threw some words together that rhymed. 

Paul made a career out of laughing at himself. 

I'm not saying any of them were pretentious, in fact i'm saying that they went out of their way to NOT call themselves 'deep' because they recognized it would seem pretentious.  Even John, who walked that line closer than any of them often ridiculed it (Glass Onion) or apologized for it "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one" etc. etc.

To have a conversation about which one of them was more 'deep' is pretty juvenile in my opinion.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[beatnickle]

 Mon Dieu ! I am not juvenile, sir. I am deep. My second will call upon your second. 

[danieljack]

John Lennon was a born Revolutionary

[RangeRoverA1]

Musically, I have good & bad thing to say about John:

1. "Mother" on Anthology Ascot is superior to the POB version. Stronger vocal & better, edgier arrangement. The last seconds are great, dig the guitar picking.
2. He managed to do both the most atypical AND worst cover of "Be My Baby". Some really interesting moments are ruined by pedestrian vocal acrobatics, needless yelling & the regular vocal is too mawkish. But least we have "Only You" (Ringo cut another take to the same backing track, if I'm right).

That being said, my favorite "rare" song by any ex-Beatle is "Yvonne". Marvellous tune, with the mouth electric guitar solo to boot.

[Gabo]

John Lennon was the best boy who ever lived.

[Moon Dawg]

  I recently viewed a YouTube clip of Lennon with Simon & Garfunkel at the 1975 Grammy Show. If concurrent Mike Love had been present and behaved as John did - California style - a lot of people would have said "Mike Love is a jerk."

 It's time to face the brutal truth: John was not especially cool, post 1969. In fact, he was at times insufferable, with witless politics to boot. I'm not blaming Yoko either.

  It doesn't make me happy to say negative things about John, but his elevation to near sainthood could use a counterpoint.

  BTW- John's vocal on "All I've Got to Do" (WITH THE BEATLES) is a soulful and relatively unsung performance. Good stuff.

[Gabo]

I love that performance, as well as Not A Second Time, possibly one of the very best early Beatles songs.

[RangeRoverA1]

  It's time to face the brutal truth: John was not especially cool, post 1969. In fact, he was at times insufferable, with witless politics to boot. I'm not blaming Yoko either.

  BTW- John's vocal on "All I've Got to Do" (WITH THE BEATLES) is a soulful and relatively unsung performance. Good stuff.

Affirmative nod on your 1st point. As someone who's totally indifferent about politics, I never cared for this side of John. Boring figure.
Soulful, soulless, that's one of my least favorite early Beatles songs. Too slow.

[Ron]

I was reading John's Playboy interview the other night, and the whole thing with Paul really kind of hit me.  Here's how I understand the whole situation:

Around 74 or so, John plays a live show with Elton John @ Madison Square Garden.  He was seperated from Yoko at the time.

Paul & Linda went to see Yoko, and told her that John wanted to see her and missed her, and asked her to the show.  she agreed to go.  Meanwhile they hadn't talked to John at all.  Yoko shows up at the show, talks to John, they go out to Dinner afterwards and end up back together.  in other words, Paul's meddling basically got John & Yoko back together again.

John moves back in with Yoko, they have a child.  Paul keeps "showing up at the door with a Guitar" and for a period of time John & Paul (and Linda, and Yoko) kind of hang out in John's apartment on some nights... including 1 night when they actually see the SNL publicity stunt where Lorne Michaels offers them 3200 bucks to appear on the show.  John & Paul almost go down to the studio that night, but decide against it because they're too tired.  Paul later recalled that it was actually the week later, and John explained to him that last week he saw Lorne make the offer, and they should go down, but they both decided it'd be too much work.

One night Paul shows up and John tells him to call next time, he's busy raising a baby and he can't just drop by like the old days.  Apparently that's the last time John sees Paul in person... the rest of the interview suggests the relationship is strained... two months after the interview John's murdered.

It's kind of tough reading it and hearing him be so hard on Paul, knowing that John died a short while later and that's how the whole thing ended.  He's also pretty pissed off at George.  

[Ron]

Yoko: "I look for something else in men - something that is tender and weak and I feel like I want to help"

John: "Yeah, and I'm the lucky cripple she chose!"

The banter between John & Yoko in that interview is hilarious. 

[Rocky Raccoon]

John was not especially cool, post 1969. In fact, he was at times insufferable, with witless politics to boot. I'm not blaming Yoko either.

I'm not sure I'd call his politics "witless" but he probably wasn't as politically minded as he may have seemed to be.  I think that was more Yoko's influence and John just seemed more prominent because he was more famous.  I do think they were both pretty cool though, I still think Yoko is pretty awesome even if her art borders on ridiculously pretentious (or is it pretentiously ridiculous?) at times, she's an intriguing personality to say the least.

As for whether or not Lennon was "cool," I suppose he wasn't cool in the conventional sense but I don't think he was trying to be.  This is a guy who was writing some of the most personal lyrics of any other songwriter, turning his very real personal struggles and insecurities into pop songs.  That's what has made him such a cult figure, why his death still resonates, why people still idolize him.  Because he wasn't afraid to be uncool, that's what made him cool and people could relate to him through his songs.  At least that's how I see it.

[Ron]

He definately wasn't trying to be cool, if you read his playboy interview he basically says over and over again he didn't care what anybody thought of him and didn't like people idolizing celebrities.  He seemed very impressionable, you can see the drastic effect Yoko had on him... if not her it would have been somebody else, though. 

[pixletwin]

That is the irony of the man. He didn't want people to idolize him or anyone yet his whole life he bounced from one subject if idol worship to another.

[Ron]

Yeah!  I'm amazed at how Yoko calls him out on it in that interview too... then John does the same to her.  They must have had a really interesting relationship, it's like they argued politely with each other.

She straight out tells him that he has 'daddies' that he follows around, then John theorizes that the Beatles were a 'daddie' that he doesn't need, then she calls him out about how he went to primal scream therapy from some long forgotten guru, and he calls her out for going to some religious event, and all the while he keeps telling the interviewer about how he doesn't want to hang out with guys anymore and just wants to hang out with Yoko.  

I hate pretentiousness but I never got that from him, he always seems like he realized how full of sh*t he was on everything.  Fascinating read.  It's hard to think he's pretentious when he keeps saying in every other breath that nobody should listen to him just because he's a celebrity.  

At the same time though, when you see him in that interview at nearly 40 and he is still arguing and fighting with pretty much all of his past acquaintances (1 Ex wife, 1 abandoned child, 2 former band mates he's fighting with, etc.) and he still has vitriol to spew at them, it's really sad to think that's how he checked out.  I mean really, he was still pissed at Paul?  He doesn't just say he's angry with them, he takes pot shots at both of them that are completely uncalled for.  Then they both spent the next 30 years telling everybody how great he was...  I'd like to think that deep down inside he really did realize what great friends Paul & George both were to him.  You rarely get friends like that in a lifetime.  The way he ridicules George and basically says he was a hanger on, and how he looked down on George... and then to see how George acted about John after he died two months later, it's just sad and beautiful at the same time. 

The whole thing with Yoko is so fascinating too, because we don't know what was going on behind closed doors but hell I never got the feeling that she was trying to keep John away from Paul or George or whoever.  It was all in his own head, i'm sure it all went back to insecurity problems he had, he may have also been a flaming homophobe, his comments about how he didn't want to make a band with guys in it WTF?   

Then another interesting aspect: He was a damn fine musician!  Here's a guy who's reveled as a great songwriter, who is a great guitarist and in general just good at his craft, and he's basically got the attitude of 'well people shouldn't really get into the music it doesn't mean anything I'm just fucking around and I'm not important".... but at the same time he's promoting a record and trying to sell it.  Which is it, John?  The music's unimportant and doesn't mean anything, or the music's good enough that I should give you my hard earned money?

The guy was definitely a walking contradiction. 

[pixletwin]

Reading those interviews I didn't quite get the taste of bitterness as much as you seemed to. John was pretty hurt by the book George had just written which either downplayed or just plain ignored the help he gave him on certain songs.

Also the quote about George being a "hanger on" was specifically about the time period of 1957-60 when he saw George as little more than a kid who would follow him around everywhere... even on his dates. LOL There is no denying that in the beginning of their friendships with John, George and Paul were in awe of John and treated him like an idol. Anyways, that was the point John was making. At the end, I think the only Beatle he was on not-so-good terms with was George.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think John was constantly having a battle with himself over how to properly express his emotions. I think all of his life he had a real inner rage and he just didn't know how to properly control it - although to be honest, his music and his humour (when it was not cruel) was probably the best and healthiest expression of it. By the time he reached his late 30s, I think he was probably better at managing it, but I'm sure it was still difficult for him.

[pixletwin]

I think John was constantly having a battle with himself over how to properly express his emotions. I think all of his life he had a real inner rage and he just didn't know how to properly control it - although to be honest, his music and his humour (when it was not cruel) was probably the best and healthiest expression of it. By the time he reached his late 30s, I think he was probably better at managing it, but I'm sure it was still difficult for him.

Spot on. What a great observation.

[SenorPotatoHead]

Recently re-listened to a BBC interview John and Yoko gave on Dec 6th 1980.   Brought back the deep sadness of his murder, they both sounded so happy, exuberant and excited to be just where they were at that point and time.   

[Emily]

John Lennon had the most beautiful of all qualities -  the will to reflect on himself, admit faults, and change.

[Lonely Summer]

Reading those interviews I didn't quite get the taste of bitterness as much as you seemed to. John was pretty hurt by the book George had just written which either downplayed or just plain ignored the help he gave him on certain songs.

Also the quote about George being a "hanger on" was specifically about the time period of 1957-60 when he saw George as little more than a kid who would follow him around everywhere... even on his dates. LOL There is no denying that in the beginning of their friendships with John, George and Paul were in awe of John and treated him like an idol. Anyways, that was the point John was making. At the end, I think the only Beatle he was on not-so-good terms with was George.

John was over sensitive. That book was not a proper biography; the focus of the book was the original handwritten lyric pages of the songs he wrote between 1964-1979. There is a small biography section, but John gets mentioned just as much as Paul.
I do find it amusing, though, how Paul has spent the last 30 years telling everyone that he and John had patched up their differences at the end, were great 'mates' again, when it appears that was far from the truth. And I do think Yoko had a lot to do with John being estranged from his former bandmates. During his lost weekend of 73-74, he was out connecting with all his friends - Paul, Ringo, Nilsson, Elton; as soon as he and Yoko got back together, he went into isolation. Sad.

[Buckethead]

I just can't get past John's virtual abandonment of Julian. That the boy learned guitar from his school janitor and actually had to purchase sentimental items from the JL estate is too sad. How can someone have an authentic "peace" and "love" persona under those circumstances? An interview George gave, I believe before he took ill, seemed to confirm what I sensed about John, that that was an image, that, yes, he could be sweet, but underneath was a really hardened, angry person.     

[KDS]

I just can't get past John's virtual abandonment of Julian. That the boy learned guitar from his school janitor and actually had to purchase sentimental items from the JL estate is too sad. How can someone have an authentic "peace" and "love" persona under those circumstances? An interview George gave, I believe before he took ill, seemed to confirm what I sensed about John, that that was an image, that, yes, he could be sweet, but underneath was a really hardened, angry person.     

All the more reason I live by the "worship the music, not the man" mantra.   There are so many talented.....for lack of a better term a$$holes over the course of music.  Lennon, Spector, Roger Waters, Ritchie Blackmore, etc etc.