Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Given that many of the SMiLE sections come under the heading of either "Heroes & Villains" or "The Elements" I suggest that this is a suitable way the 3 movement SMiLE can become a 12 title LP made of only Brian & VDP songs (keep in mind that Carl's 12 track listing that was given to Capitol doesn't count).

The Prayer
Heroes And Villains (includes Gee, IIGS & Barnyard)
Do You Like Worms
Cabin Essence

Wonderful
Look
Child Is Father Of The Man
Surf's Up

Vega-Tables
Holidays
The Elements
Good Vibrations

There you are. The LP as described to Tracy Thomas as a 12 tracker also is a 3 movement piece. The songs could have been delineated along such lines.

The pieces written by outside composers don't count as Brian told Tracy Thomas that all the music was done by him & VDP.

I agree with you that the Capitol list is somewhat overemphasized on here. I'd like to think you're correct that the songs not written by Wilson/Parks (basically OMP/YAMS) wouldn't have made the cut, as I don't think it belongs either. Just sounds like a wasted track amid so much genius, imo. But, I'm not following you on anything else. Splitting a movement across sides defeats the entire purpose. Surf's Up going into Vega-Tables is too jarring and nonsensical a sequence. I don't see how you can be so certain of a Dada/Chimes/Cow Elements sans Veggies just because that was the single. There's more proof of Veggies as an Element than Chimes. Prayer wasn't considered a track at this point. You say you don't want to include songs Brian & Van didn't write, but then you include Gee in Heroes. Much as I like it, I think Holidays was almost certainly discarded by Brian (debatably Look too, but that we know had vocals recorded so it's possible it was still a contender, and if nothing else, was probably considered above Holidays for inclusion), yadda yadda yadda.

I mean, you're free to rearrange it as you please, obviously. But for what it's worth, I'm not seeing the logic in some of your choices.

[Little Pad]

Individual tracks.

[StillSurfin]

For the original 66/67 then separate tracks, but if it was officially released then I would have liked it have fit together as a 'whole'
For Brian's 2004 release then 3 movement piece

Here's how I would have configured the original Smile, but segued the songs together so they are interlinked, I originally had Surfs Up as the albums closer, but wasn't sure where to place GV so I've had that as the closer instead. I've omitted a few songs as I wasn't sure how to place them and I think this configuration has more of a 'flow' to it.

1 Prayer/Gee
2 Heroes & Villains
3 Do You Like Worms (Roll Plymouth Rock)
4 My Only Sunshine (The Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine)
5 Cabin Essence
6 Wonderful
7 Look (Song for Children)
8 Child Is Father of the Man
9 Surfs Up
10 Holidays
11 Vega-tables
12 Good Vibrations
 

[Micha]

Surf's Up going into Vega-Tables is too jarring and nonsensical a sequence.

I disagree. The last line of Surf's Up is "A children's song", and Vega-Tables basically is a children's song. To me it's a perfect sequence!

"Vega-Tables" was considered as a stand alone single & so it's separated from The Elements.

Only later on. I even could imagine a shorter version of V-T being released on the album as part of The Elements, and later on a rerecorded fleshed out version as second single after H&V.

[Bicyclerider]

Considering Look had parts recycled into Child and into Good Vibrations I doubt it would have made the cut - plus it was recorded in August and didn't make the list in December.

[Bean Bag]

It's cool that we all have different opinions on this and everything (PC disclaimer) -- but I don't know how people can truly believe otherwise.  If we only had a handwritten memo from Brian to Capitol telling him what songs were to be on the album... but alas.  We'll never know.

 

[Bill Tobelman]

The idea of individual tracks with two seconds of silence between them doesn't really fit well with the idea of SMiLE. Things need to flow together as in a dream.

How one divides a dream up into sections seems like a very subjective process. That's the main point to be made. Brian could divide it up any way he wanted: 12 tracks, 3 movements, 2 LP sides, whatever.

The tracks could also contain other sections if Brian wanted to do that. For instance, Boyce & Hart did that with the track "Life" on their LP TEST PATTERNS.

http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/boyce_and_hart/test_patterns/

[The Shift]

No. What I'm referring to is a fan mix.  I'm not sure if it's acapella.  It might actually been processed out of phase.  The thing is I THINK I heard it on youtube but that might not be the case.  Surely SOMEONE knows what I'm referring to?   

http://www53.zippyshare.com/v/96164732/file.html

You have to OoP the stereo mix on TSS 2LP.

You could also isolate the right channel on the Surf's Up album version, but this seemed a lot clearer. 

Mindblowing -  esp the last bar or three!

[Bleachboy]

A little bit of both actually. There are too many evident musical links between H&V/Gee/DYLM; Surf's Up/CIFOTM/Look; Wind Chimes/Can't Wait Too Long; Wind Chimes itself can be linked to Surf's Up because it hase the same kind of piano pattern, and I'm not even talking about all the alternate versions and snippets on Smiley Smile...you couldn't see the SMiLE songs as truly separate because they're so intrinsically linked. I think, taking the composer's point of view, that Brian had a variety of musical segments that all came from writing a single song, and had multiple paths going from there. It reminds me a lot of Frank Zappa and his "conceptual continuity" for those who are familiar. It's basically the same concept but spread over a whole discography (a HUGE discography in that case!) ""Well, the conceptual continuity is this: everything, even this interview, is part of what I do for, let's call it, my entertainment work. And there's a big difference between sitting here and talking about this kind of stuff, and writing a song like 'Titties and Beer'. But as far as I'm concerned, it's all part of the same continuity. It's all one piece. It all relates in some weird way back to the focal point of what's going on."     "Project/Object is a term I have used to describe the overall concept of my work in various mediums. Each project (in whatever realm), or interview connected to it, is part of a larger object, for which there is no 'technical name.'

    Think of the connecting material in the Project/Object this way: A novelist invents a character. If the character is a good one, he takes on a life of his own. Why should he get to go to only one party? He could pop up anytime in a future novel.

    Or: Rembrandt got his 'look' by mixing just a little brown into every other color -- he didn't do 'red' unless it had brown in it. The brown itself wasn't especially fascinating, but the result of its obsessive inclusion was that 'look.'

    In the case of the Project/Object, you may find a little poodle over here, a little blow job over there, etc., etc. I am not obsessed by poodles or blow jobs, however; these words (and others of equal insignificance), along with pictorial images and melodic themes, recur throughout the albums, interviews, films, videos (and this book) for no other reason than to unify the 'collection.'"

[Bicyclerider]

I've said many times that all Brian needed to do to edit together all the SMile pieces - songs, incomplete songs, instrumental tracks, party reels and sound effects tapes - was hire Zappa to edit it together.  Lumpy Gravy IS Smile without of course the songs and the Beach Boys.

[Bleachboy]

Brown Shoes Don't Make it is also one of the earliest examples of modular recordings (recorded in November 66'). There's also a parody of the Beach Boys in there!

[JK]

Brown Shoes Don't Make it is also one of the earliest examples of modular recordings (recorded in November 66'). There's also a parody of the Beach Boys in there!

Yep, "Little Deuce Coupe" (here starting at 4:52), followed briefly (in Zappa's doo-wop bass voice) by what seems to me to be not a million miles away from the riff in "Help Me Rhonda":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZLWD75KKGA

[ESQ Editor]

I spent the better part of five years (1988-1993) pouring over Smile bootlegs.  I never saw "Good Vibrations" as the last cut (even after BWPS and the SS box).  I love the fact that Smile is an interchangeable listening experience.  It allows us to create and recreate multiple variations…I must have made 20 different versions back in the day.  since there is nothing conventional about the Smile music, I always felt that it could be sequenced in any way that "feels right."  I tend to think of of this music in terms of different chapters in a story…tying into the Frank Holmes imagery…as a part of variants on color.  

This is the movement I enjoy the most—

SIDE ONE
Our Prayer  1:05
Heroes & Villains (Pt 1)  3:09
Heroes & Villains (Pt 2)  4:18 *"Gee" appears here
Do You Like Worms (Roll Plymouth Rock)  3:35
Heroes & Villains (Pt 3) 1:18  (Animals) (Master Take) (2/20/67)
I'm In Great Shape  :28
Barnyard  :28
My Only Sunshine (The Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine)  1:55
Cabin Essence  3:30 *favorite all-time BB song
Good Vibrations  4:15

SIDE TWO
Vega-tables  3:49
Holidays  2:32
Wind Chimes  3:06
The Elements: Fire (Mrs. O'Leary's Cow)  2:35
I Wanna Be Around / Workshop  1:23
Love to Say Dada  2:32
Wonderful  2:04
Look (Song for Children)  2:31
Child Is Father of the Man  2:10
Surfs Up  4:12
You're Welcome  1:08

[Bicyclerider]

The sides are quite disproportionate with regards to time and the second side way too long to fit on a vinyl album side.

This could be the reel to reel (or 8 track) version.

[SenorPotatoHead]

  Lumpy Gravy IS Smile without of course the songs and the Beach Boys.

Exactly my thought the first time I heard Lumpy Gravy.  Great album, love it to this day.   

[StillSurfin]

I've said many times that all Brian needed to do to edit together all the SMile pieces - songs, incomplete songs, instrumental tracks, party reels and sound effects tapes - was hire Zappa to edit it together.  Lumpy Gravy IS Smile without of course the songs and the Beach Boys.

Yep, even this quote from Frank Zappa could be easily applied to 'Smile'

"It's all one album. All the material in the albums is organically related and if I had all the master tapes and I could take a razor blade and cut them apart and put it together again in a different order it still would make one piece of music you can listen to. Then I could take that razor blade and cut it apart and reassemble it a different way, and it still would make sense. I could do this twenty ways. The material is definitely related."

I also definitely think Frank could have pieced 'Smile' together, but when working with an outside producer (which essentially would be the role he'd be taking), he could possibly be creating 'Smile' in his vision, unless he would be continually talking to Brian and asking him his opinion on every aspect of the editing process. Another more workable scenario is BW says something like here's the track listing and the albums sequence and find a way to put it all together. But with a project such as 'Smile' you really need to be hands on but if they worked in tandem & maybe with Van Dyke Parks too if Brian had to create additional music/lyrics to fit everything together then that would have been something. As one of VDP's Song Cycle songs is reminiscent of a 'Smile' era Beach Boys track.

[alf wiedersehen]

Brown Shoes Don't Make it is also one of the earliest examples of modular recordings (recorded in November 66'). There's also a parody of the Beach Boys in there!

Yep, "Little Deuce Coupe" (here starting at 4:52), followed briefly (in Zappa's doo-wop bass voice) by what seems to me to be not a million miles away from the riff in "Help Me Rhonda":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZLWD75KKGA

The "Help Me Rhonda" riff is also played on the bass under the "Little Deuce Coupe" chorus melody - and it works really well.

[JK]

Brown Shoes Don't Make it is also one of the earliest examples of modular recordings (recorded in November 66'). There's also a parody of the Beach Boys in there!

Yep, "Little Deuce Coupe" (here starting at 4:52), followed briefly (in Zappa's doo-wop bass voice) by what seems to me to be not a million miles away from the riff in "Help Me Rhonda":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZLWD75KKGA

The "Help Me Rhonda" riff is also played on the bass under the "Little Deuce Coupe" chorus melody - and it works really well.

Zappa was a genius too (I think). For me the closest Brian gets to Zappa melody-wise is the flugelhorn (?) line in the magical transition from "CIFOTM" to "SU" (here just after 2:00):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6adPrN8TX9U

   

[Capitol Punishment]

My personal track list.

December 66 Mix:

Side One:
(Our Prayer)
1. Heroes and Villains (November version)
2. Old Master Painter
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Wind Chimes
5. Cabin Essence

Side Two:
6. Good Vibrations
7. Vega-Tables
8. The Elements
9. Wonderful
10. CIFOTM
11. Surf's Up

April Mix:

Side One:
1. Heroes and Villains Intro
2. H&V
3. Worms
4. Wind Chimes
5. Cabin Essence


Side Two:
6. GV
7. Vega-Tables
8. Love To Say Dada
9. Wonderful
10. Child
11. SU

[Bill Tobelman]

Albums used to typically be a few of an artist's singles with filler, such as cover versions of hit songs, added.

One thing that PET SOUNDS had over SUMMER DAYS (depending upon your opinion of such things) was that it seemed thematically connected musically & lyrically explaining the complexities of growing up. Drugs helped bring out this sensitivity in Brian. PET SOUNDS was almost a single theme expressed through a standard LP set-up of separate tracks. To many PET SOUNDS is considered one of the first concept albums due to these properties.

SMiLE was to be just as much an advance over PET SOUNDS as PET SOUNDS was over SUMMER DAYS.

How do you out-do a connected themed LP with separate tracks?

You connect them.

[Bill Tobelman]

The whole idea behind the modular style of recording is not to create a large work of unconnected pieces.

[Bean Bag]

Well stated, Bill.  I've always believed the line was to be blurred between tracks.  "We don't want to think of this as a track..." That quote right there, proves, that in Brian's mind, the definition of tracks was gonna be nuked for SMiLE.  It's inarguable.  Tracks -- songs -- as we all knew it, were subject to new rules.

That must have really juiced everybody up in the room, don't you think?  Man... what a fun time it must have been...

Yet, still, there were to be twelve tracks or chapters or movements, blended and blurred.  That's what I believe was the concept -- and so did Brian...

That's really all we know.  Or I know.

[Summertime Blooz]

It does seem like at least some of the tracks would have consisted of multiple sections that blurred the lines of traditional song structures. I don't know how else you explain a track being called I'm In Great Shape when all it is a snippet really. It's logical that the track would have been a combination of things (God only knows what). Also, The Elements most likely would have fallen into this category had it been completed. But I do believe that even with the modular process that was being used, the tracks would have been mostly easy to differentiate, eg Good Vibrations. I  just don't think BW and VDP were  that daring or THAT far out there. At heart, they're both traditionalists even if they've had their experimental moments.

[Please delete my account]

I can see why on paper the idea of 12 separate tracks is appealing- Good Vibrations is overflowing with great ideas, brilliantly condensed into three and a half minutes using the modular method and it would be great to imagine an album where it is joined by 11 other examples of this.

But when I saw Brian Wilson play 2004 SMiLE live, I kept think throughout. "This works. This really works. It works so well. It's like a pop symphony". And I still think it really works. But then when I hear ANY version of Smile, continuous or split into chunks, it always sounds great, because the music is so good that however you slice it it will still sound good.

I imagine two sides of basically continuous music, with occasional gaps. Lots of repetition of motifs across the album. But as I say, any version rules.

[Summertime Blooz]

Thought I'd post this in this thread since it seems to be where the Smile obsessives are posting recently. I've never heard this before. What do you think?

Good Vibrations Part C-

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52684612/GV%20Part%20C.wav