Spirit/Stairway to Heaven" plagiarism lawsuit

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Say it ain't so Jimmy. What do you board members think? The Zep were touring with Spirit before Page wrote the tune.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3Sdbg2is2zQ


http://ultimateclassicrock.com/led-zeppelin-stairway-to-heaven-lawsuit-lawyer/

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelins-stairway-to-heaven-targeted-for-plagiarism-20140519

[bluesno1fann]

I'm surprised that they've waited over 40 years to take action... And I'm also surprised that a lot of people didn't know about the rip-off until now.

I'm also quite sad at some of the comments I saw about the news when it first came out... A lot of disrespectful comments against Randy California, whom they no doubt not realize that he drowned in 1997 and is obviously not the person pressing charges.

Zeppelin has stolen quite a few songs, and it's pretty obvious that the intro to Stairway To Heaven was ripped off. There's quite a list here (I have to say though the worst rip-off was Dazed And Confused):
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=82341

[Cyncie]

The similarities are close enough to make a case, I think. I just wonder why it took them over 40 years to press it.

[Mike's Beard]

Zep have 'borrowed' tunes and lyrics many time before - usually from old blues musicians. Still the case here is shakey - about 20 seconds of similiar guitar picking. Somone on the Hoffmann board posted examples that this type of riff had been doing the rounds long before Spirit used it.

[feelsflow]

Mike's Beard said it right.  How many songs are rips and rearrangements?  I won't even bother to go read more.

To any Spirit fan, this has been common knowledge for many, many years.  How many of you are hearing of this for the first time, right now?  Randy didn't mind, thought it was an honor.  He never pushed the issue.  He even mentioned it in the liner notes when they re-issued Spirit's first album on CD.

This is a family member looking for a few bucks.  Many relatives sell off valuable possessions of the famous, and do sh*t like this.  I think it's in bad taste, especially since Randy didn't mind.  Jimmy will probably not fight it - toss them some cash (he's got it), and add Randy's name.  He has been there before.  Anyone who owns the early Zep vinyl have seen the addition of writer's credits over the years.  Zeppelin were not as bad as many, any of us could name.  Even in Beach Boys land.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(instrumental)

I had never heard  the Spirit song so it all interested me. Wonder if there is an interview where RC talks about it. Course, he has passed away and I wonder what the statute of limitations are in the US on this sorta thing.

[feelsflow]

You mean there's not a Spirit Thread around Here!

That's too bad.  They were a great band.  The first four are the ones to check first.  Those had Jay (the main lead singer), before him and Mark ( the bass player), ran off and formed Jo Jo Gunne - also very good.  Randy left too.  There's one after Dr Sardonicus that had only the keyboard player (John), and drummer (Ed), along with the Staehely brothers - Feedback.  Then Randy did a solo (With Noel Redding) called Kapt. Kopter and the (Fabulous) Twirly Birds, before getting back together with Ed for The Adventures of Kaptain Kopter and Commander Cassidy in Potato Land album (released years later).  Then soon they were using the Spirit tag again, with Randy as the singer.

Randy kept the band going until he died.  He has many fans.  I wonder what they think of all this.

My favorite is their third, Clear.  And be sure to check out their great 45 "1984."

[Aum Bop Diddit]

Yes, the great Randy California.  "!2 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus" is an overlooked classic -- as good as "Forever Changes" in my opinion.  Any of the first 4 LPs you can't go wrong with.  Eclectic in the best sense, Spirit was a unique, powerful musical force.

And Randy died saving his then 12 year old son son from drowning in a rip current.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Two great songs  from Spirit I have always loved. Looks like I need to delve into their early albums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsTK2LHZKPQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en55_U3sKAM

[feelsflow]

OregonRiverRider,    After this drama dies down, maybe you could consider changing this to our Spirit Thread.  If we try to start one now, they will just merge it like they did with Bubbly's xtc Place.    -  Both of your links are great examples of what Randy brought to the band, he's the singer on "Nature's Way" and co-lead on "I Got a Line on You."  He wrote more than he sang - hey, Jay was great, and he knew it.  Randy sang a couple on the second album, and that's him on "1984."  For a new fan, the best way to go for the first four, is the two CD Time Circle comp.  Still affordable, though out of print.  Most of the tracks from the original band are on it and some rare tracks too.  Of course you can probably find them all on youtube and decide to get the individual albums.  Those mid-90's re-masters are done very well, and all have bonus tracks.  Every track they cut  through Feedback is worth having.

[bringahorseinhere?]

I don't think the case can hold up........

it is a progression yes....... but the 'stairway' melody is not there......... as they say, you 'cant copyright a chord progression'....

while this is close, I can't see how it is enough to become a co-writer......... had the lyrical melody been there, then hands down.... for sure!

I have heard this progression in other songs too.....

if this is a legal case that works out for the other party, this will open the doors to a million other songs that have been copied and get many others

suing each other.......

 

RickB

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I don't think the case can hold up........

it is a progression yes....... but the 'stairway' melody is not there......... as they say, you 'cant copyright a chord progression'....

while this is close, I can't see how it is enough to become a co-writer......... had the lyrical melody been there, then hands down.... for sure!

I have heard this progression in other songs too.....

if this is a legal case that works out for the other party, this will open the doors to a million other songs that have been copied and get many others

suing each other.......

 

RickB

Good arguments Rick!

Jimmy Page responds:

http://www.nme.com/news/led-zeppelin/77595

[SurfRiderHawaii]

OregonRiverRider,    After this drama dies down, maybe you could consider changing this to our Spirit Thread.  If we try to start one now, they will just merge it like they did with Bubbly's xtc Place.    -  Both of your links are great examples of what Randy brought to the band, he's the singer on "Nature's Way" and co-lead on "I Got a Line on You."  He wrote more than he sang - hey, Jay was great, and he knew it.  Randy sang a couple on the second album, and that's him on "1984."  For a new fan, the best way to go for the first four, is the two CD Time Circle comp.  Still affordable, though out of print.  Most of the tracks from the original band are on it and some rare tracks too.  Of course you can probably find them all on youtube and decide to get the individual albums.  Those mid-90's re-masters are done very well, and all have bonus tracks.  Every track they cut  through Feedback is worth having.

Good idea - a Spirit thread.

Thanks for the tips on their albums.

I have their greatest hits somewhere (on vinyl) but  "Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus" sounds like essential listening.

[feelsflow]

I think Steve Miller used the progression.  I'd have to research a bit to jog the old memory banks.  Maybe on Recall the Beginning...Journey from Eden?  Good excuse to pull out the vinyl tonight.

For a short six paragraphs NME is all over the map story-wise.  Looks like they put several tweets together, with short bursts from Page:  # "ridiculous"  -  Oh, and Robert, I'm just so # "Fed Up!"  NME used to be a respected source...now it's this.  Got to catch the customer's eye with a large picture, and a reminder those new re-masters are out soon.  You Heard it Here First!!  Don't forget to click on one of our sponsor's ads...     btw His "Client" can't be Randy.  They make it sound like he's still alive.  And Rick's probably right, the case will go nowhere.  I've never understood the Harrison case, but I did like the video and song he made as his reply.  We'll see.  Did it say he had twenty of these on the docket currently?  But his only real concern is that it's the "right" thing to do for Randy's legacy.  As I said - Randy thought it was a honor.

And Gregg, I hope we can make this a Spirit Thread.  A lot of the threads here in General Music Discussion don't go on for pages, but they are nice to have around.  We all have our favorites, and want to give them a space.  I like posting in this area.

[Aum Bop Diddit]

Almost 2 million hits on the Taurus YouTube video.  If this generates any interest in Spirit (positive I mean!) then damn good.  Unfortunately most of the comments are ignorant and provocative.  I'm shocked!

[Summertime Blooz]

I'll admit that I've never really spent much time with the music of Spirit, but whenever I do, I am always impressed by the quality and variety of their albums. Nature's Way and Mr. Skin have been favorites of mine for a long time now, but listening to their albums at the moment here, I'm hearing some wonderful tasteful music. As for this lawsuit, it seems pretty baseless, but if it introduces people to Spirit, then at least some good came of it.

[Ron]

While I'll agree they're very similar, I don't feel that's a rip off.  It's a descending scale with some flourishes on it, I'll guarantee you, you can find classical music written 400 years ago with a similar section.  If it were note for note, maybe, but it's not even note for note.

On top of that, we'd have to think that Jimmy Page is capable of ripping people off... he's one of the most creative guitarists that's ever walked the planet, I don't believe for a minute he would purposefully bite somebody else's composition.

I have less respect for Robert Plantt.... but he didn't play guitar

With all that said though, George Harrison lost his lawsuit for less of a 'bite' than this one, so in the end they may lose the case. 

Another one that's pretty bad is

Beechwood 45789 (the Marvellettes)

and

634-5789 (wilson pickett)

[leggo of my ego]

The Late Great Steve Marriott and Small Faces ripped off Dixon's "You Need Love" and later Percy (Plant), who was a fan and hanger-on of the SF copied Marriott's style almost to a T on Whole Lotta Love.

Marriott was flattered. Dixon sued Zep but never bothered the SF.

Percy owes about all "his" chops to the Great Marriott

None of this bothers me, what is troublesome is the pure denial of the facts from Zep-Heads.  


Pagey also lifted some of Marriott's power chords and phrasing - its easy to hear on the old jam tracks on SF recordings

Of course Pagey is going to flat out deny the Spirit claim - - and in the background his lawyers will make the payout.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Similar situation without the lawsuit. The Eagles took Hotel Californua from Jethro Tull?

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/jethro-tull-hotel-california/

[feelsflow]

Never noticed it before, but did you listen to that mash-up!?  Hotel California album isn't even in the same league as Stand Up.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Never noticed it before, but did you listen to that mash-up!?  Hotel California album isn't even in the same league as Stand Up.

No, where can I hear the mash-up?

But yeah, early Tull were monster albums.

[feelsflow]

It's in your link.  Paragraph 4, click on the words - well-done mashup - and it takes you to a youtube clip someone put up 23 May. 

This is becoming a fun thread.

I've been listening to Stand Up since release, but never noticed the connection.  But not this Eagles album so much.  Although it was maybe their biggest record, I liked any of their albums more.  First two the best.

Jethro Tull  was one of the bands that drew me into English folk music.  Soon I was listening to Pentangle, Fairport, John Martyn and the rest.  I was so lucky to see them on tour in 1970, while Glenn was still in the band.  Similar to the Isle of Wight set list, they were playing early versions of some of the Aqualung tracks.  Not that I knew what the hell they were, just new stuff.  It was really the Benefit tour.

Thanks for the funny link Gregg.  You have a good morning, Will

[SMiLE-addict]

Similar situation without the lawsuit. The Eagles took Hotel Californua from Jethro Tull?

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/jethro-tull-hotel-california/

That's a melodic pattern so easy to conjure up on one's own without ever having heard anything like it before that I don't think it was a case of stealing.

As for the Led Zep steal, yeah they probably stole that part but I bet I could go through a whole bunch of Bach or someone else and find something similar. Another common pattern.

[Aum Bop Diddit]

It's important to note that the suit is by the estate of the late Randy "California" Wolfe.  As far as I can tell he was flattered by the cop.  Not saying it's right or wrong, but I'm sure he "stole" a few riffs too.  But I believe the "art" is in making that your own.  That's Rock and Roll.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Steven Colbert of the Colbert Report wags his finger at Led Zeppelin over lifting the opening from Spirit. (starts at about 2:53 of the video)
Funny stuff!

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/4n51kp/tip-wag---ted-cruz---led-zeppelin