Mike and Bruce Tour 2014

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

You act like Mike is in the same league as Gary Usher, or Tony Asher

And, of course, he's not. But then again, he's not in the same league as Brian Wilson either which makes the hypothetical call for "meeting in the middle" sound somewhat strange to me.

Nor has anyone Brian's collaborated with been in the same league other than maybe Paul McCartney ...... Though ......... Brian certainly wasn't in the same league as Carl when it comes to vocals, and The Beach Boys harmonic blend was superior to what Brian could do on his own ......... so, this is all grey area really ..... And by in the "same league" I wasn't speaking to his quality as a lyricist, but as his being an all-important member of The Beach Boys and having more of a rightful stake/say in the matter over random Brian collaborators.... I'm just asking for certain posters to consider this before going on and on about how sad and pathetic Mike is.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Brian certainly wasn't in the same league as Carl when it comes to vocals,

Oooh, I don't know about that. Carl's voice was a thing of real beauty, that's for sure. But I think Brian has bowled me over more often than Carl has. Certainly Carl's voice out-lasted Brian's. Then again, Carl's voice didn't really become Carl's voice until 1966. Before that I think it was Bert's voice. Bert was a relatively unknown Californian folk singer who lent Carl his voice sometime before Pet Sounds and then never heard from Carl again.

And by in the "same league" I wasn't speaking to his quality as a lyricist, but as his being an all-important member of The Beach Boys and having more of a rightful stake/say in the matter over random Brian collaborators.... I'm just asking for certain posters to consider this before going on and on about how sad and pathetic Mike is.

Sure, though I don't necessarily think that anyone is necessarily calling on Roger Christian to decide what happens with The Beach Boys in 2015. I do think, however that it makes sense for people to interrogate Mike's decisions given his track record. I myself would find it silly if Ringo would only work with McCartney as long as they were able to do so without other people around.

[rab2591]

It's not drivel, it's the truth about a sad and insecure man you carry water for to keep him as a source.

You guys are pretty out of line here.

You act like Mike is in the same league as Gary Usher, or Tony Asher: GREAT lyricists, but basically hired guns/"new/temporary best friends" for Brian and quickly moved on from ....

Mike was THE first and ultimately most successful of Bran's collaborators, and he CO-FOUNDED THE DAMN BAND and has fronted the band for 50 years. All whatever songs he didn't co-write, he's usually there providing his wonderful lead or harmony or bass vocals.... No small potatoes and the guy has every right to fight for his stake in the music.

Did I say Mike was in the same league as the lyricists I listed? No. My point was that Brian likes to stir the pot - try different things.

I'm not arguing with the FACT that Brian's working with Mike yielded the most success. I was merely stating that perhaps Brian isn't interested in Mike's artistic contributions anymore.

you might be right, but we've really no indicators to confirm that ....... Brian's all over the place when it comes to answering questions and it's not like he said NO when Joe Thomas told him Mike would be writing the lyrics to Beaches In Mind ..... I personally get the feeling that if Joe were to tell Brian "Hey, Mike Love will be writing all the lyrics to your next album" Brian would probably be fine with it...... Maybe being locked away in a room with Mike might not be what he wants, but Mike faxing in lyrics wouldn't bother him in the least.

It was actually Brian's idea to get Mike to write lyrics for some songs on TWGMTR: "And then [Brian] said, 'OK, well, let me hear this.' So I played that and four other songs that we had parts to. And he said, 'You know what? I really love this. Let’s call Mike and see if he’d be willing to write some lyrics and whether he’d collaborate with me again.'" - Joe Thomas

http://notes.andrewromano.net/joethomasbeachboys

[mikeddonn]

It's been said before but again, Brian can choose to write with any collaborator he wants.  If Mike or any other Beach Boys think they can do better then they can feel free to try.  They didn't get many record deals without Brian. Ever!  That's why they were pretty keen over the years to make it seem like he was involved.  So what's changed?  Brian could write the best songs, Mike could sing them, ensuring he still has an important role to play in the group.  They wrote hits together but Brian also had plenty without Mike Love.  Mike insecure? Yeah for the same reason he wears a hat which says "Beach Boys" on it.  You can force an artist to work with someone if he's not inspired. Then it's no longer art.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Brian certainly wasn't in the same league as Carl when it comes to vocals,

Oooh, I don't know about that. Carl's voice was a thing of real beauty, that's for sure. But I think Brian has bowled me over more often than Carl has. Certainly Carl's voice out-lasted Brian's. Then again, Carl's voice didn't really become Carl's voice until 1966. Before that I think it was Bert's voice. Bert was a relatively unknown Californian folk singer who lent Carl his voice sometime before Pet Sounds and then never heard from Carl again.

And by in the "same league" I wasn't speaking to his quality as a lyricist, but as his being an all-important member of The Beach Boys and having more of a rightful stake/say in the matter over random Brian collaborators.... I'm just asking for certain posters to consider this before going on and on about how sad and pathetic Mike is.

Sure, though I don't necessarily think that anyone is necessarily calling on Roger Christian to decide what happens with The Beach Boys in 2015. I do think, however that it makes sense for people to interrogate Mike's decisions given his track record. I myself would find it silly if Ringo would only work with McCartney as long as they were able to do so without other people around.

Brian's bowled me over more so as well, but mainly due to double tracked vocals (not always of course) and nothing he ever sang live was even remotely as otherworldly as "Let The Wind Blow" from In Concert .... But of course this is like debating chocolate ice cream vs chocolate bars .....

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's been said before but again, Brian can choose to write with any collaborator he wants.  If Mike or any other Beach Boys think they can do better then they can feel free to try.  They didn't get many record deals without Brian. Ever!  That's why they were pretty keen over the years to make it seem like he was involved.  So what's changed?  Brian could write the best songs, Mike could sing them, ensuring he still has an important role to play in the group.  They wrote hits together but Brian also had plenty without Mike Love.  Mike insecure? Yeah for the same reason he wears a hat which says "Beach Boys" on it.  You can force an artist to work with someone if he's not inspired. Then it's no longer art.

I agree that this is true and unfortunate, especially when Brian wasn't even writing the best songs anymore yet they still had to make it look like he was heavily involved.

Dennis, for one,  was certainly capable of going off and doing better (in many ways) ......

[CenturyDeprived]

It's not drivel, it's the truth about a sad and insecure man you carry water for to keep him as a source.

You guys are pretty out of line here.

You act like Mike is in the same league as Gary Usher, or Tony Asher: GREAT lyricists, but basically hired guns/"new/temporary best friends" for Brian and quickly moved on from ....

Mike was THE first and ultimately most successful of Bran's collaborators, and he CO-FOUNDED THE DAMN BAND and has fronted the band for 50 years. All whatever songs he didn't co-write, he's usually there providing his wonderful lead or harmony or bass vocals.... No small potatoes and the guy has every right to fight for his stake in the music.

Did I say Mike was in the same league as the lyricists I listed? No. My point was that Brian likes to stir the pot - try different things.

I'm not arguing with the FACT that Brian's working with Mike yielded the most success. I was merely stating that perhaps Brian isn't interested in Mike's artistic contributions anymore.

you might be right, but we've really no indicators to confirm that ....... Brian's all over the place when it comes to answering questions and it's not like he said NO when Joe Thomas told him Mike would be writing the lyrics to Beaches In Mind ..... I personally get the feeling that if Joe were to tell Brian "Hey, Mike Love will be writing all the lyrics to your next album" Brian would probably be fine with it...... Maybe being locked away in a room with Mike might not be what he wants, but Mike faxing in lyrics wouldn't bother him in the least.

It was actually Brian's idea to get Mike to write lyrics for some songs on TWGMTR: "And then [Brian] said, 'OK, well, let me hear this.' So I played that and four other songs that we had parts to. And he said, 'You know what? I really love this. Let’s call Mike and see if he’d be willing to write some lyrics and whether he’d collaborate with me again.'" - Joe Thomas

http://notes.andrewromano.net/joethomasbeachboys

I believe that, depending on the nature/vibe/theme of a given song, current day Brian is (or was, as of 2012) open to working with Mike. But when Mike throws a song like Summer's Gone under the bus (despite some praise too) by publicly saying how much better it would have been with his rays of sunshine added to it, it just comes across as not getting it. Truly. Some lighter fare, Brian may be ok to consider working with Mike, yes. I know Mike has written deep, heartfelt lyrics too, but it's been decades. And ultimately, I think Brian wants to not have to answer to Mike.

And I think there is still an underlying layer of emotional intimidation there between those guys, or at least the *possibility* for that. And that's the main reason why the room thing didn't happen. To avoid the possibility altogether. Maybe a therapist, Melinda, or a friend advised against it. Who knows. It doesn't really matter. It makes a lot of sense given these guys' history.

The real question is, if Mike thinks that Brian is a personality type that is susceptible to unwanted manipulation by those around him, why is it so impossible for Mike to accept the possibility that the same manipulation could (however adversely) occur by Mike's own hand?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I said it before a while ago. Mike has probably no clue about Brian's decease(s).

I think Mike knows a lot about Brian's condition. I've heard/read him talk about it frequently. However, I think that Mike thinks that Brian can still function at a high level in the studio despite his problems.

I realize that many posters on this board have and will find anything they can think of to criticize Mike Love. I mean, just yesterday we found out that Mike didn't mention Brian's TM certification in 1966 because he (Mike) didn't want to admit that Brian was into TM first! But, I am surprised (well, not really) that you think Mike is naive in thinking that Brian's condition would NOT be a detriment to Mike working with Brian in the studio. On a weekly basis we are told by collaborators, duet partners, and friends how Brian "still has it" and is doing amazing things and blowing minds - just like he used to. But Mike is wrong for thinking the same thing?

[Wirestone]

But doesn't believe the same thing at all. From the sound of it, he seems to believe that Melinda and Joe are keeping Brian doped up and away from him.

To support Mikes side in this, that is what you have to believe. Andrew, SJS, Pinder -- I'll ask it directly -- do you believe that Brian's wife and collaborator are conspiring to keep him apart from his cousin, preventing him from writing with preferred collaborators, and feeding him drugs to cloud his mind?

Do you guys really think that? If not, then I can't imagine how you'd have Mike's back in this.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

But doesn't believe the same thing at all. From the sound of it, he seems to believe that Melinda and Joe are keeping Brian doped up and away from him.

To support Mikes side in this, that is what you have to believe. Andrew, SJS, Pinder -- I'll ask it directly -- do you believe that Brian's wife and collaborator are conspiring to keep him apart from his cousin, preventing him from writing with preferred collaborators, and feeding him drugs to cloud his mind?

Do you guys really think that? If not, then I can't imagine how you'd have Mike's back in this.

What I think is what we can pretty surely guess: .... Mike knows more about the situation and the people involved than we do or ever will .....

[CenturyDeprived]

I'll say one more opinion on this, however controversial it may be to some... IMO, I'd venture to guess that if Mike in 2011 during the release of The Smile Sessions, had on film, maybe on one of the promo clips, publicly acknowledged that he may have inadvertently hurt a sensitive Brian's feelings during Smile... just a morsel of honest verbal recognition that some of Mike's own behavior, reactions, or communication styles may have been less than ideal back in '66/'67... then I think Mike's shot at writing a new song or two *alone with just his cousin* in 2011/2012 might possibly have improved. Maybe.

Am I saying that Mike being denied the mythical "room" is an intentional punishment for him not apologizing for possible regretful (in hindsight) behavior from 40+ years ago? Not exactly. But I have to think that Mike's steadfast refusal to publicly back down from his defensive stance regarding that historical time wasn't in 2011/2012 going to *help* his current cause of thinking that writing a song with Brian is going to be as easy as it once was in simpler times. The history of this band, and the bandmates' interpersonal relationships from 50 years ago still have lasting affects to this day, which should not be simply dismissed in a discussion of why things are the way they are.

I believe that a gesture like that would have pleasantly surprised Brian, and I believe that a measure of goodwill might have been returned, if for no other reason as a symbol of mending fences (beyond the C50 reunion in and of itself). It's a matter of showing (or not showing) a level of emotional maturity, and the corresponding trust (or lack thereof). One reaps what one sows. Maybe, just maybe it would have manifested as a song or two written in a manner with Mike's request being met.  I don't think this is ridiculous to hypothesize.  I also unfortunately don't think this scenario ever crossed Mike's mind in the slightest.

And to head off the chorus of people who will say that Mike has nothing to apologize for: even if that is true in your mind(s), sometimes people apologize to others even when they themselves think they have done nothing wrong, simply because they want there to be no hard feelings, as much as that is possible. I'll put it this way: It certainly wouldn't have *hurt* Mike's chances for new collaborations with his cousin.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'll say one more opinion on this, however controversial it may be to some... IMO, I'd venture to guess that if Mike in 2011 during the release of The Smile Sessions, had on film, maybe on one of the promo clips, publicly acknowledged that he may have inadvertently hurt a sensitive Brian's feelings during Smile... just a morsel of honest verbal recognition that some of Mike's own behavior, reactions, or communication styles may have been less than ideal back in '66/'67... then I think Mike's shot at writing a new song or two *alone with just his cousin* in 2011/2012 might possibly have improved. Maybe.

Am I saying that Mike being denied the mythical "room" is an intentional punishment for him not apologizing for possible regretful (in hindsight) behavior from 40+ years ago? Not exactly. But I have to think that Mike's steadfast refusal to publicly back down from his defensive stance regarding that historical time wasn't in 2011/2012 going to *help* his current cause of thinking that writing a song with Brian is going to be as easy as it once was in simpler times. The history of this band, and the bandmates' interpersonal relationships from 50 years ago still have lasting affects to this day, which should not be simply dismissed in a discussion of why things are the way they are.

I believe that a gesture like that would have pleasantly surprised Brian, and I believe that a measure of goodwill might have been returned, if for no other reason as a symbol of mending fences (beyond the C50 reunion in and of itself). It's a matter of showing (or not showing) a level of emotional maturity, and the corresponding trust (or lack thereof). One reaps what one sows. Maybe, just maybe it would have manifested as a song or two written in a manner with Mike's request being met.  I don't think this is ridiculous to hypothesize.  I also unfortunately don't think this scenario ever crossed Mike's mind in the slightest.

And to head off the chorus of people who will say that Mike has nothing to apologize for: even if that is true in your mind(s), sometimes people apologize to others even when they themselves think they have done nothing wrong, simply because they want there to be no hard feelings, as much as that is possible. I'll put it this way: It certainly wouldn't have *hurt* Mike's chances for new collaborations with his cousin.

Oh my God: we're back to THIS??

[Empire Of Love]

But doesn't believe the same thing at all. From the sound of it, he seems to believe that Melinda and Joe are keeping Brian doped up and away from him.

To support Mikes side in this, that is what you have to believe. Andrew, SJS, Pinder -- I'll ask it directly -- do you believe that Brian's wife and collaborator are conspiring to keep him apart from his cousin, preventing him from writing with preferred collaborators, and feeding him drugs to cloud his mind?

Do you guys really think that? If not, then I can't imagine how you'd have Mike's back in this.

What I think is what we can pretty surely guess: .... Mike knows more about the situation and the people involved than we do or ever will .....

And just as surely Mike is the person least likely to be objective about what is going on with Brian, which makes his take on the matter suspect.  Additionally, I think it is fair to ask if Mike might need to see things this way in order to justify his  decisions and to solidify, in his own mind, his importance in the band.  Don't get me wrong, Mike is extremely important, his work ethic is second to none, his voice is a key element in the blend, and personally some of his vocal moments are what I love about The Beach Boys.  But he is far more dependent upon Brian for his success than Brian is on him.  There may have been no *Beach Boys* without Mike, but Brian was destined for greatness.  Mike, on the other hand, without Brian, would most likely be an unknown.  Brian needed Mike for The Beach Boys to work, but Brian could have been a writer or producer without him.  And as much as I like Mike's voice, I even try to emulate some of his mannerisms in my songs, however poorly, his voice really works best in the mix - but the mix takes us back to Brian...

[CenturyDeprived]

I'll say one more opinion on this, however controversial it may be to some... IMO, I'd venture to guess that if Mike in 2011 during the release of The Smile Sessions, had on film, maybe on one of the promo clips, publicly acknowledged that he may have inadvertently hurt a sensitive Brian's feelings during Smile... just a morsel of honest verbal recognition that some of Mike's own behavior, reactions, or communication styles may have been less than ideal back in '66/'67... then I think Mike's shot at writing a new song or two *alone with just his cousin* in 2011/2012 might possibly have improved. Maybe.

Am I saying that Mike being denied the mythical "room" is an intentional punishment for him not apologizing for possible regretful (in hindsight) behavior from 40+ years ago? Not exactly. But I have to think that Mike's steadfast refusal to publicly back down from his defensive stance regarding that historical time wasn't in 2011/2012 going to *help* his current cause of thinking that writing a song with Brian is going to be as easy as it once was in simpler times. The history of this band, and the bandmates' interpersonal relationships from 50 years ago still have lasting affects to this day, which should not be simply dismissed in a discussion of why things are the way they are.

I believe that a gesture like that would have pleasantly surprised Brian, and I believe that a measure of goodwill might have been returned, if for no other reason as a symbol of mending fences (beyond the C50 reunion in and of itself). It's a matter of showing (or not showing) a level of emotional maturity, and the corresponding trust (or lack thereof). One reaps what one sows. Maybe, just maybe it would have manifested as a song or two written in a manner with Mike's request being met.  I don't think this is ridiculous to hypothesize.  I also unfortunately don't think this scenario ever crossed Mike's mind in the slightest.

And to head off the chorus of people who will say that Mike has nothing to apologize for: even if that is true in your mind(s), sometimes people apologize to others even when they themselves think they have done nothing wrong, simply because they want there to be no hard feelings, as much as that is possible. I'll put it this way: It certainly wouldn't have *hurt* Mike's chances for new collaborations with his cousin.

Oh my God: we're back to THIS??

Pinder - my intention is not to start a debate about Smile...  Rather, just to state how I believe the many events throughout the band's history are interwoven and can affect one another. Do you really think what I stated is so outlandish?

[Pretty Funky]

Remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLIbu6sJ4-I

Of course Brian wanted to move the show along but for me it spoke volumes. Early in the tour Mike may have been trying to reach out to Brian. To interact and form some kind of relationship. Brian, as demonstrated here, is just not comfortable doing this. Was it the same off-stage for that year or so of recording and touring? Who knows. Its just the way the guy is and I'm not going to rehash why that is the case but my point is had a better relationship been developed during 2012 then maybe bridges could have been repaired, apologies offered all round by all parties. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'll say one more opinion on this, however controversial it may be to some... IMO, I'd venture to guess that if Mike in 2011 during the release of The Smile Sessions, had on film, maybe on one of the promo clips, publicly acknowledged that he may have inadvertently hurt a sensitive Brian's feelings during Smile... just a morsel of honest verbal recognition that some of Mike's own behavior, reactions, or communication styles may have been less than ideal back in '66/'67... then I think Mike's shot at writing a new song or two *alone with just his cousin* in 2011/2012 might possibly have improved. Maybe.

Am I saying that Mike being denied the mythical "room" is an intentional punishment for him not apologizing for possible regretful (in hindsight) behavior from 40+ years ago? Not exactly. But I have to think that Mike's steadfast refusal to publicly back down from his defensive stance regarding that historical time wasn't in 2011/2012 going to *help* his current cause of thinking that writing a song with Brian is going to be as easy as it once was in simpler times. The history of this band, and the bandmates' interpersonal relationships from 50 years ago still have lasting affects to this day, which should not be simply dismissed in a discussion of why things are the way they are.

I believe that a gesture like that would have pleasantly surprised Brian, and I believe that a measure of goodwill might have been returned, if for no other reason as a symbol of mending fences (beyond the C50 reunion in and of itself). It's a matter of showing (or not showing) a level of emotional maturity, and the corresponding trust (or lack thereof). One reaps what one sows. Maybe, just maybe it would have manifested as a song or two written in a manner with Mike's request being met.  I don't think this is ridiculous to hypothesize.  I also unfortunately don't think this scenario ever crossed Mike's mind in the slightest.

And to head off the chorus of people who will say that Mike has nothing to apologize for: even if that is true in your mind(s), sometimes people apologize to others even when they themselves think they have done nothing wrong, simply because they want there to be no hard feelings, as much as that is possible. I'll put it this way: It certainly wouldn't have *hurt* Mike's chances for new collaborations with his cousin.

Oh my God: we're back to THIS??

Pinder - my intention is not to start a debate about Smile...  Rather, just to state how I believe the many events throughout the band's history are interwoven and can affect one another. Do you really think what I stated is so outlandish?

It's outlandish to the extent that it's a topic/subject that seems to mean something really to only hardcore fans like us ......... For Mike and Brian, it's basically an argument that happened at the dinner table one Thanksgiving 40+ years ago.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

But doesn't believe the same thing at all. From the sound of it, he seems to believe that Melinda and Joe are keeping Brian doped up and away from him.

To support Mikes side in this, that is what you have to believe. Andrew, SJS, Pinder -- I'll ask it directly -- do you believe that Brian's wife and collaborator are conspiring to keep him apart from his cousin, preventing him from writing with preferred collaborators, and feeding him drugs to cloud his mind?

Do you guys really think that? If not, then I can't imagine how you'd have Mike's back in this.

What I think is what we can pretty surely guess: .... Mike knows more about the situation and the people involved than we do or ever will .....

And just as surely Mike is the person least likely to be objective about what is going on with Brian, which makes his take on the matter suspect.  Additionally, I think it is fair to ask if Mike might need to see things this way in order to justify his  decisions and to solidify, in his own mind, his importance in the band.  Don't get me wrong, Mike is extremely important, his work ethic is second to none, his voice is a key element in the blend, and personally some of his vocal moments are what I love about The Beach Boys.  But he is far more dependent upon Brian for his success than Brian is on him.  There may have been no *Beach Boys* without Mike, but Brian was destined for greatness.  Mike, on the other hand, without Brian, would most likely be an unknown.  Brian needed Mike for The Beach Boys to work, but Brian could have been a writer or producer without him.  And as much as I like Mike's voice, I even try to emulate some of his mannerisms in my songs, however poorly, his voice really works best in the mix - but the mix takes us back to Brian...

........ But Brian wasn't a writer/producer without Mike or The Beach Boys ..... at least not until Mike, The Beach Boys and Brian had wrought success from their talents..... This is history/fact. To denigrate Mike to suit assumption/imaginary scenarios is where this all gets silly.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'll say one more opinion on this, however controversial it may be to some... IMO, I'd venture to guess that if Mike in 2011 during the release of The Smile Sessions, had on film, maybe on one of the promo clips, publicly acknowledged that he may have inadvertently hurt a sensitive Brian's feelings during Smile... just a morsel of honest verbal recognition that some of Mike's own behavior, reactions, or communication styles may have been less than ideal back in '66/'67... then I think Mike's shot at writing a new song or two *alone with just his cousin* in 2011/2012 might possibly have improved. Maybe.

Am I saying that Mike being denied the mythical "room" is an intentional punishment for him not apologizing for possible regretful (in hindsight) behavior from 40+ years ago? Not exactly. But I have to think that Mike's steadfast refusal to publicly back down from his defensive stance regarding that historical time wasn't in 2011/2012 going to *help* his current cause of thinking that writing a song with Brian is going to be as easy as it once was in simpler times. The history of this band, and the bandmates' interpersonal relationships from 50 years ago still have lasting affects to this day, which should not be simply dismissed in a discussion of why things are the way they are.

I believe that a gesture like that would have pleasantly surprised Brian, and I believe that a measure of goodwill might have been returned, if for no other reason as a symbol of mending fences (beyond the C50 reunion in and of itself). It's a matter of showing (or not showing) a level of emotional maturity, and the corresponding trust (or lack thereof). One reaps what one sows. Maybe, just maybe it would have manifested as a song or two written in a manner with Mike's request being met.  I don't think this is ridiculous to hypothesize.  I also unfortunately don't think this scenario ever crossed Mike's mind in the slightest.

And to head off the chorus of people who will say that Mike has nothing to apologize for: even if that is true in your mind(s), sometimes people apologize to others even when they themselves think they have done nothing wrong, simply because they want there to be no hard feelings, as much as that is possible. I'll put it this way: It certainly wouldn't have *hurt* Mike's chances for new collaborations with his cousin.

Oh my God: we're back to THIS??

Pinder - my intention is not to start a debate about Smile...  Rather, just to state how I believe the many events throughout the band's history are interwoven and can affect one another. Do you really think what I stated is so outlandish?

It's outlandish to the extent that it's a topic/subject that seems to mean something really to only hardcore fans like us ......... For Mike and Brian, it's basically an argument that happened at the dinner table one Thanksgiving 40+ years ago.

To be brief, I think you are significantly minimizing a very notable (to the partcipants, or at least to one of them) time/series of events (not to mention the repercussions), if you are to equate the Brian/Mike Smile issues with some minor, forgettable Thanksgiving dinner argument.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'll say one more opinion on this, however controversial it may be to some... IMO, I'd venture to guess that if Mike in 2011 during the release of The Smile Sessions, had on film, maybe on one of the promo clips, publicly acknowledged that he may have inadvertently hurt a sensitive Brian's feelings during Smile... just a morsel of honest verbal recognition that some of Mike's own behavior, reactions, or communication styles may have been less than ideal back in '66/'67... then I think Mike's shot at writing a new song or two *alone with just his cousin* in 2011/2012 might possibly have improved. Maybe.

Am I saying that Mike being denied the mythical "room" is an intentional punishment for him not apologizing for possible regretful (in hindsight) behavior from 40+ years ago? Not exactly. But I have to think that Mike's steadfast refusal to publicly back down from his defensive stance regarding that historical time wasn't in 2011/2012 going to *help* his current cause of thinking that writing a song with Brian is going to be as easy as it once was in simpler times. The history of this band, and the bandmates' interpersonal relationships from 50 years ago still have lasting affects to this day, which should not be simply dismissed in a discussion of why things are the way they are.

I believe that a gesture like that would have pleasantly surprised Brian, and I believe that a measure of goodwill might have been returned, if for no other reason as a symbol of mending fences (beyond the C50 reunion in and of itself). It's a matter of showing (or not showing) a level of emotional maturity, and the corresponding trust (or lack thereof). One reaps what one sows. Maybe, just maybe it would have manifested as a song or two written in a manner with Mike's request being met.  I don't think this is ridiculous to hypothesize.  I also unfortunately don't think this scenario ever crossed Mike's mind in the slightest.

And to head off the chorus of people who will say that Mike has nothing to apologize for: even if that is true in your mind(s), sometimes people apologize to others even when they themselves think they have done nothing wrong, simply because they want there to be no hard feelings, as much as that is possible. I'll put it this way: It certainly wouldn't have *hurt* Mike's chances for new collaborations with his cousin.

Oh my God: we're back to THIS??

Pinder - my intention is not to start a debate about Smile...  Rather, just to state how I believe the many events throughout the band's history are interwoven and can affect one another. Do you really think what I stated is so outlandish?

It's outlandish to the extent that it's a topic/subject that seems to mean something really to only hardcore fans like us ......... For Mike and Brian, it's basically an argument that happened at the dinner table one Thanksgiving 40+ years ago.

To be brief, I think you are significantly minimizing a very notable (to the partcipants, or at least to one of them) time/series of events (not to mention the repercussions), if you are to equate them with a minor, forgettable Thanksgiving day argument.

How am I minimizing it? ..... If the events in question had lead to the break up of The Beach Boys and Brian committing suicide etc etc, then OK maybe ........ but Brian basically did what he wanted, The Beach Boys kept making records and touring to varying degrees of success, (some success: major) Brian eventually finished SMILE, the TSS was released, Brian's enjoying a flourishing solo career, there was C50, The Bruce Boys tour non-stop, Brian has received numerous awards, ect etc etc ..... so, do you really think Brian or the world is aching for some apology from Mike? ..... And I'm not of the mind that Brian's drug abuse and mental problems can all be traced back to Mike and some lack of apology, so there's that too ....... So, all in all, who exactly does a Mike apology matter to?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

This is the most tired argument ever on the boards. Can anyone think of a single reason why I shouldn't lock this before it turns into the usual bitchfest? Right now, I can't.

[CenturyDeprived]

This is the most tired argument ever on the boards. Can anyone think of a single reason why I shouldn't lock this before it turns into the usual bitchfest? Right now, I can't.

I'm not going to get into any more Smile – related discussion with Pinder pertaining to this thread. Pinder and I can disagree, although I would be curious to know if anyone else has any thoughts/discussion about my theory.  And maybe it's a half – assed theory at that. I am not in anyway trying to be argumentative, just to initiate intelligent discussion.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

This is the most tired argument ever on the boards. Can anyone think of a single reason why I shouldn't lock this before it turns into the usual bitchfest? Right now, I can't.

I'm not going to get into any more Smile – related discussion with Pinder pertaining to this thread. Pinder and I can disagree, although I would be curious to know if anyone else has any thoughts/discussion about my theory.  And maybe it's a half – assed theory at that. I am not in anyway trying to be argumentative, just to initiate intelligent discussion.

No, it's a legitimate theory and touches upon something of a life basic, you know?

Problem is, it's been discussed to death and the conversation has nowhere to go really because Mike insists on not officially apologizing and Brian and The Beach Boys saga insists on moving along regardless.

Maybe if Brian, on the other hand, came out repeatedly in interviews asking Mike for an apology, we'd get somewhere..... Think about it.


While on the subject: artists/creative people/musicians don't seem to be in the habit, by and large, of apologizing for creative or band decisions ....... Closest I can come is when George Harrison admitted (in The Beatles Anthology) that they could have handled the Pete Best situation better ....... Or like Nick Mason discussing Syd Barret, he says "The situation was so bad that we nearly said something"!!!!!

[CenturyDeprived]

This is the most tired argument ever on the boards. Can anyone think of a single reason why I shouldn't lock this before it turns into the usual bitchfest? Right now, I can't.

I'm not going to get into any more Smile – related discussion with Pinder pertaining to this thread. Pinder and I can disagree, although I would be curious to know if anyone else has any thoughts/discussion about my theory.  And maybe it's a half – assed theory at that. I am not in anyway trying to be argumentative, just to initiate intelligent discussion.

No, it's a legitimate theory and touches upon something of a life basic, you know?

Problem is, it's been discussed to death and the conversation has nowhere to go really because Mike insists on not officially apologizing and Brian and The Beach Boys saga insists on moving along regardless.

Maybe if Brian, on the other hand, came out repeatedly in interviews asking Mike for an apology, we'd get somewhere..... Think about it.

Pinder - nothing against you personally, and we can discuss further in PM if you want, but I'll just say one more thing here - I can think of examples of indirect communication (Brian's specialty) of implying an apology might be appreciated, such as Brian's mentioning Mike on Beautiful Dreamer (2004), Brian's response on BBC Radio Front Row Daily (from 2011), and I'm sure there are more examples. If an apology or a minor expression by Mike of regret for inadvertently hurting feelings happened, and it was sincere, it might have led to better communication/relationship between the guys, maybe more trust and maybe 2011/2012 "alone in a room" collaboration. These guys have a messed up relationship for multiple reasons, and that's one of them. That's alls I'm sayin'.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

This is the most tired argument ever on the boards. Can anyone think of a single reason why I shouldn't lock this before it turns into the usual bitchfest? Right now, I can't.

I'm not going to get into any more Smile – related discussion with Pinder pertaining to this thread. Pinder and I can disagree, although I would be curious to know if anyone else has any thoughts/discussion about my theory.  And maybe it's a half – assed theory at that. I am not in anyway trying to be argumentative, just to initiate intelligent discussion.

No, it's a legitimate theory and touches upon something of a life basic, you know?

Problem is, it's been discussed to death and the conversation has nowhere to go really because Mike insists on not officially apologizing and Brian and The Beach Boys saga insists on moving along regardless.

Maybe if Brian, on the other hand, came out repeatedly in interviews asking Mike for an apology, we'd get somewhere..... Think about it.

Pinder - nothing against you personally, and we can discuss further in PM if you want, but I'll just say one more thing here - I can think of examples of indirect communication (Brian's specialty) of implying an apology might be appreciated, such as Brian's mentioning Mike on Beautiful Dreamer (2004), Brian's response on BBC Radio Front Row Daily (from 2011), and I'm sure there are more examples. If an apology or a minor expression by Mike of regret for inadvertently hurting feelings happened, and it was sincere, it might have led to better communication/relationship between the guys, maybe more trust and maybe 2011/2012 "alone in a room" collaboration. These guys have a messed up relationship for multiple reasons, and that's one of them. That's alls I'm sayin'.

Well, this is why direct communication is a good thing to attempt here and there. And Brian has plenty of people more than willing to do such a thing for him.

And if I were Mike, seeing Beautiful Dreamer would have resulted in anything but a heartfelt apology attempt.....

BTW, why should Mike have to apologize for having questions or issues about some lyrics he's supposed to sing? .... Brian held all the cards in that situation, where it mattered. If Mike's attitude was such a big deal, who cares? Just have Dennis, Bruce, or Al, or Carl, or Brian himself sing the lines.

[Cam Mott]

I'll say one more opinion on this, however controversial it may be to some... IMO, I'd venture to guess that if Mike in 2011 during the release of The Smile Sessions, had on film, maybe on one of the promo clips, publicly acknowledged that he may have inadvertently hurt a sensitive Brian's feelings during Smile... just a morsel of honest verbal recognition that some of Mike's own behavior, reactions, or communication styles may have been less than ideal back in '66/'67... then I think Mike's shot at writing a new song or two *alone with just his cousin* in 2011/2012 might possibly have improved. Maybe.

Am I saying that Mike being denied the mythical "room" is an intentional punishment for him not apologizing for possible regretful (in hindsight) behavior from 40+ years ago? Not exactly. But I have to think that Mike's steadfast refusal to publicly back down from his defensive stance regarding that historical time wasn't in 2011/2012 going to *help* his current cause of thinking that writing a song with Brian is going to be as easy as it once was in simpler times. The history of this band, and the bandmates' interpersonal relationships from 50 years ago still have lasting affects to this day, which should not be simply dismissed in a discussion of why things are the way they are.

I believe that a gesture like that would have pleasantly surprised Brian, and I believe that a measure of goodwill might have been returned, if for no other reason as a symbol of mending fences (beyond the C50 reunion in and of itself). It's a matter of showing (or not showing) a level of emotional maturity, and the corresponding trust (or lack thereof). One reaps what one sows. Maybe, just maybe it would have manifested as a song or two written in a manner with Mike's request being met.  I don't think this is ridiculous to hypothesize.  I also unfortunately don't think this scenario ever crossed Mike's mind in the slightest.

And to head off the chorus of people who will say that Mike has nothing to apologize for: even if that is true in your mind(s), sometimes people apologize to others even when they themselves think they have done nothing wrong, simply because they want there to be no hard feelings, as much as that is possible. I'll put it this way: It certainly wouldn't have *hurt* Mike's chances for new collaborations with his cousin.

Why don't you just imagine that Mike did apologize for every imaginary thing you imagine he should and then we will have World Peace.