gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680599 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 01:39:38 AM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Why was Carl at the bottom of the harmony stack?  (Read 43311 times)
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #100 on: April 17, 2014, 09:19:22 PM »

Counterpoint is nothing more than embellished 2-part harmony in the traditional sense, with specific "rules" and things like contrary motion between voices and avoiding parallel 4ths and 5ths and all of that. But I'm getting too literal there with the definition.

If you're writing counterpoint, you still need to imply the harmony to form a chord, otherwise you won't be able to convey the sound of one chord to the next.

Countermelodies are, I think, what is being suggested on this page.

I consider it the difference between Dixieland and Duke Ellington. They're both ensemble playing, but one is more specifically arranged based on harmony, lines, and motion, and the other is more of a free-form type of layering where multiple voices are riffing and blowing lines in the same key that combine to create harmony.

Brian's arrangements in the 60's were the Ellington...after Brian left and Bruce wasn't there to arrange, I do think there was more of a Dixieland catch-all approach, less formatted and more by-chance as each voice added something while not necessarily paying attention to voice leading and motion as much as when Brian dealt out the parts.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 09:23:45 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
adamghost
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2107



View Profile
« Reply #101 on: April 17, 2014, 09:33:59 PM »

Good post.  I hadn't been aware of the distinction between countermelody and counterpoint.  (And I am still baffled by the distinction between head voice and falsetto even though I apparently frequently use both)
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #102 on: April 17, 2014, 09:52:01 PM »

A classic example of a countermelody versus counterpoint from peers of the Beach Boys would be the song "You've Got Your Troubles, I've Got Mine" by The Fortunes. There is that part where two different melodies and lyrics happen at the same time, and they're both in the same key so when the notes do intersect they create almost an "accidental harmony" that's in key, but it's not really a traditional counterpoint which is more structured and planned out. There's also "She's Leaving Home" where John answers Paul's high vocal with lines like "what did we do that was wrong", more of a countermelody than counterpoint even though it gets called counterpoint (and it's not even wrong in a literal sense to call it that).

But the point made last page about the change in arranging style when Brian wasn't there is one of the best I've read on the topic on this board or elsewhere, it really is/was a change in the Boys' vocal arrangements that can be heard on the records. Same with Bruce, who was like Brian a skilled technical type of arranger. That was an amazing observation I never really paid attention to until this discussion. They all sound like "Beach Boys" vocals in the end, but the 60's Brian-led material does have a more specifically arranged vibe than some of the 70's and beyond tracks. 
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Don Malcolm
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 1108



View Profile
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2014, 02:56:12 PM »

Right. It's a countermelody or overlapping, alternating vocal lines that we're talking about, as opposed to writing in harmony (which can obviously be very formulaic or very complex, but usually one or the other).

No question that "Catch a Wave" is a primitive example of countermelody (riffing off the main vocal line), but "Callifornia Girls" might be the first genuine "tag," when a full-blown marriage of arranged voices take "one more step" in elaborating and heightening the chorus. Brian became much more ambitious as a structural songwriter in '65, something that probably reaches its peak of complexity in the "Grand Coulee Dam" section of "Cabinessence"--and even though he "stepped back" after Smile, he wasn't done creating "countermelodic clusters": you can hear 'em in "All I Wanna Do," "Til I Die," the augmented middle-eight that serves as the tag for "Mess of Help," and taken to what is the breaking point in "Funky Pretty." Many of Dennis' songs in this period receive similar treatment ("Slip On Through," "Forever"). It's still around in certain songs from the 15BO-Love You era: "It's OK" and "I'll Bet He's Nice" have more modest tags that work in a similar way.

I'm sure I'm overlooking a number of others, too.

Seems to me that Brian evolved from stacking vocals and harmonies to sequencing and overlaying countermelodies. Occasionally, he'd do both ("GV").
Logged
zachrwolfe
Guest
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2014, 08:35:58 PM »

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:17:39 PM by zatch » Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2014, 06:36:01 AM »

Another early one where Carl seemingly sings the second-highest part: "Cary Crazy Cutie". In the intro, it's Mike, then Dennis, then seemingly Carl, then Brian, and each is higher than the one before it ('cept maybe for Brian's, which is the lead, and therefore sings a different melody than the backup singers).

While we're on the subject of the LDC album (an LP which gets WAY too little attention in the BBs fan world, IMO - I'm sure b/c four of the twelve cuts are retreads - but the eight new ones are mostly all outasight!): as Adam has pointed out way earlier on this thread, on a lot of the earlier songs, you can hear Dennis prominently in the mix, even way more than Al after the point when Al rejoined the band, and that's certainly the case on most of the new LDC songs, including "Car Crazy Cutie". BUT, on one of them, "Spirit Of America", I hear way more of Al than I do Dennis....listen, and see what you think.

Another anomaly I noticed on this album (vocal-related, so thus appropriate for this thread IMO): most of these cuts are mixed with the instrumental track in the center and the two vocal tracks panned to the left and right...BUT, there's one exception, and that's "No-Go Showboat", where the vocals are centered and there's two instrumental tracks, mixed in a left-right stereo spread! Bizarre, considering all these cuts were likely mixed down on the same day, or within two days maximum! Wonder what happened there? I can't really say for sure that the vocals were doubled, since they're mixed in mono, but I think so...maybe someone else can opine on that? If they're single-tracked, it could mean that they either ran out of time and didn't do a reduction-mix transfer to dub the two instrumental tracks down into one on a second tape, so that they could double the vocals on the open track, or they did, but something happened to that second-generation tape (lost or ruined) and they had no time to replace it; documentation indicates these eight new songs were done in an incredibly speedy fashion. The vocals on "A Young Man Is Gone" are also in mono, but there's no instrumental track on that one, since it's a cappella. Also, regarding "No-Go Showboat", I hear a voice in the backgrounds that I can't quite place...it's decidedly un-Wilson-y; listen to the line "Black-wall slicks with racing mags / is just for looks man, not for drags" (or whatever it is), especially the "not for drags" part, and see what you think. Maybe it's Al singing falsetto, or maybe it's Rich Petereson of The Survivors, since he claims to have written the lyrics for this song. Again, opinions welcome!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 06:39:53 AM by c-man » Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2014, 08:54:18 AM »

c-man: Who mixed "Showboat" in stereo? Was this a case of Capitol mixing after the fact, like Dave Dexter's Beatles stereo mixes? Not only does that suggest the thought the Brian "always" mixed his 60's records in mono isn't the case if Brian and Chuck ( ? ) did the stereo mix, but it would also open up the possibility that lines up with most teen-pop 60's mixing in general, where the mono was given the most attention for obvious reasons of radio airplay and such, and then engineers often without the artists or producers being there would do stereo mixes after the fact...and take their own initiative on how things were done.

That was the case even up to Sgt. Pepper, the difference there being Martin and Emerick gave specific orders to EMI and Capitol not to remix or even change the EQ during mastering on any part of the master mixes they had delivered.

1963 stereo mixing in pop was more of a Wild West scene, where stereo mixes were left to the whims of whatever staff member got assigned to do a stereo mix of what was designed as a mono mix.

So...who mixed Showboat in stereo? Maybe it was just a case of flipping the template (vocal panning versus instrumental panning) as an experiment to see how it came out.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2014, 02:34:28 PM »

My understanding is Chuck did the stereo mixes. That's about all I know. I just find it odd that, of those eight tracks that were rush-recorded and rush-mixed for a rush-release, all of them were mixed according to the "vocals left / music track center / vocals right" template, except for "No-Go Showboat", and the a capella tune (which was left in mono).
Logged
Loaf
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 838


View Profile
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2014, 02:57:44 PM »

As well as being glad in the 'Beck' thread that we have people like Ray Lawlor and AGD on here to add their insight, i also want to say i'm glad we have people like guitarfool2002, c-man, adamghost to contribute to threads like this. You guys are the reason i keep reading. The records are 50 years old now in some cases, but i'm still finding new reasons to listen to them afresh thanks to you.

Smiley
Logged
Micha
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3133



View Profile WWW
« Reply #109 on: May 12, 2014, 12:05:12 AM »

Also, regarding "No-Go Showboat", I hear a voice in the backgrounds that I can't quite place...it's decidedly un-Wilson-y; listen to the line "Black-wall slicks with racing mags / is just for looks man, not for drags" (or whatever it is), especially the "not for drags" part, and see what you think. Maybe it's Al singing falsetto, or maybe it's Rich Petereson of The Survivors, since he claims to have written the lyrics for this song. Again, opinions welcome!

Dave maybe?
Logged

Ceterum censeo SMiLEBrianum OSDumque esse excludendos banno.
Autotune
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1699



View Profile
« Reply #110 on: May 12, 2014, 01:04:28 PM »

Also, regarding "No-Go Showboat", I hear a voice in the backgrounds that I can't quite place...it's decidedly un-Wilson-y; listen to the line "Black-wall slicks with racing mags / is just for looks man, not for drags" (or whatever it is), especially the "not for drags" part, and see what you think. Maybe it's Al singing falsetto, or maybe it's Rich Petereson of The Survivors, since he claims to have written the lyrics for this song. Again, opinions welcome!

Dave maybe?

Sounds like Al to me.
Btw, I was listening to the intro to CCCutie and thought that the intro to Pamela Jean was arranged in a different way... While on Cutie each new voice enters on a higher pitch, on Jean it is the previous voice that goes up a la In my Room.
Logged

"His lyrical ability has never been touched by anyone, except for Mike Love."

-Brian Wilson on Van Dyke Parks (2015)
adamghost
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2107



View Profile
« Reply #111 on: May 12, 2014, 04:13:24 PM »

Every now and then I have to go through the BBs' discography to warm up for some Beach Boys tribute show or other, and on the last pass, without doing really intensive listening, I thought I noticed more cases where Carl was above Dennis.  But the real shocker was a close listen to "409" -- which has one of the most egregiously flat (at least 'til the '70s) Beach Boys performances with Dennis in the middle harmony.  Except on this most recent listen I realized it may not be Dennis.  It sure sounds like him -- when it's flat.  But listening more closely to the track, the bottom harmony (of the triad) sounds like him too, and the bottom doesn't sound like Carl at all.  Whereas the middle harmony kinda does have Carl's little twang to it.

It's hard to tell since they were so young, and it's much more in Dennis' wheelhouse to sing flat than Carl's, but -- everyone have a listen to that one and see what they think.  I can't swear to it and I know it's counter to prevailing wisdom.  But I'm curious if it strikes anyone else the same way on another listen.
Logged
bringahorseinhere?
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1220



View Profile
« Reply #112 on: May 12, 2014, 04:28:37 PM »

ok, so if I understand this all completely...... would that mean the chorus of 'don't worry baby' is a counterpoint melody?

as there is Brian on lead, The Boys on a different melody, and Mike doing his own part?

RickB
Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #113 on: May 12, 2014, 08:45:49 PM »

Every now and then I have to go through the BBs' discography to warm up for some Beach Boys tribute show or other, and on the last pass, without doing really intensive listening, I thought I noticed more cases where Carl was above Dennis.  But the real shocker was a close listen to "409" -- which has one of the most egregiously flat (at least 'til the '70s) Beach Boys performances with Dennis in the middle harmony.  Except on this most recent listen I realized it may not be Dennis.  It sure sounds like him -- when it's flat.  But listening more closely to the track, the bottom harmony (of the triad) sounds like him too, and the bottom doesn't sound like Carl at all.  Whereas the middle harmony kinda does have Carl's little twang to it.

It's hard to tell since they were so young, and it's much more in Dennis' wheelhouse to sing flat than Carl's, but -- everyone have a listen to that one and see what they think.  I can't swear to it and I know it's counter to prevailing wisdom.  But I'm curious if it strikes anyone else the same way on another listen.

Gary Usher reportedly sings on this - so I'd guess he's either doubling Dennis or Carl.
Logged
zachrwolfe
Guest
« Reply #114 on: May 12, 2014, 09:00:28 PM »

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:15:01 PM by zatch » Logged
Mitchell
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 802



View Profile
« Reply #115 on: May 12, 2014, 09:25:42 PM »

I've long noticed the  weird high voice on some of the cuts on the Little Deuce Coupe album. Off the top of my head there's one on Showboat, Spirit of America, and Betsy. I think it might actually be Mike doing a 'falsetto'... On that note, I swear the official BBs website once listed "secret falsetto" in Mike's credits... I totally forget when and cannot verify if this is true.
Logged

Watch out for snakes!
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #116 on: May 13, 2014, 03:32:01 AM »

Every now and then I have to go through the BBs' discography to warm up for some Beach Boys tribute show or other, and on the last pass, without doing really intensive listening, I thought I noticed more cases where Carl was above Dennis.  But the real shocker was a close listen to "409" -- which has one of the most egregiously flat (at least 'til the '70s) Beach Boys performances with Dennis in the middle harmony.  Except on this most recent listen I realized it may not be Dennis.  It sure sounds like him -- when it's flat.  But listening more closely to the track, the bottom harmony (of the triad) sounds like him too, and the bottom doesn't sound like Carl at all.  Whereas the middle harmony kinda does have Carl's little twang to it.

It's hard to tell since they were so young, and it's much more in Dennis' wheelhouse to sing flat than Carl's, but -- everyone have a listen to that one and see what they think.  I can't swear to it and I know it's counter to prevailing wisdom.  But I'm curious if it strikes anyone else the same way on another listen.

Gary Usher reportedly sings on this - so I'd guess he's either doubling Dennis or Carl.

If you hear "two of Dennis", I'd say one of the "flatter" voices is Usher doubling Carl, and the other is Dennis.
Logged
Autotune
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1699



View Profile
« Reply #117 on: May 13, 2014, 04:06:13 AM »

I think it's Dennis singing the third of the chord, as it's the same voice as "Little Miss America". Brian sings the fifth, and a voice I cannot identify (Carl?) sings the root. In the verse "Ten Little Indians" I hear Brian on top, Carl (?) right below, and then Dennis. So the order of the stack is different here. "County Fair" I can't figure out.
Logged

"His lyrical ability has never been touched by anyone, except for Mike Love."

-Brian Wilson on Van Dyke Parks (2015)
adamghost
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2107



View Profile
« Reply #118 on: May 13, 2014, 01:43:30 PM »

Maybe is Usher on the bottom harmony, and Carl's not on there at all.  I really don't hear a double...and I don't really hear Carl.  But then again, I haven't gotten the headphones out, so I could be all wet on this.
Logged
zachrwolfe
Guest
« Reply #119 on: May 13, 2014, 01:51:47 PM »

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:14:57 PM by zatch » Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #120 on: May 13, 2014, 07:36:27 PM »

I think it's Dennis singing the third of the chord, as it's the same voice as "Little Miss America". Brian sings the fifth, and a voice I cannot identify (Carl?) sings the root. In the verse "Ten Little Indians" I hear Brian on top, Carl (?) right below, and then Dennis. So the order of the stack is different here. "County Fair" I can't figure out.

I'm pretty sure I can hear Usher on "County Fair".
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #121 on: May 13, 2014, 07:41:36 PM »

ok, so if I understand this all completely...... would that mean the chorus of 'don't worry baby' is a counterpoint melody?

as there is Brian on lead, The Boys on a different melody, and Mike doing his own part?

RickB

I don't believe so... Guitarfool can correct me as he's much more knowledgeable about theory than myself but from what I take from what he's written in this thread, Brian and Mike are singing countermelodies to each other and the rest of the group (probably Brian included) are singing in standard 3-part harmony.

That sounds right! I'd go beyond that and say there is little or no traditional counterpoint on most if not all of the Beach Boys' songs.

I have literally been busting my brain trying to think of one example...and I think there is one obvious time where Brian deliberately wrote a Bach-style traditional counterpoint passage in his music.

The earliest version of Wonderful, the Smile version with the harpsichord and brass arrangement. Go to the 1993 box set for the even more stripped down version, and check out the passage I'm thinking of.

It's the line with the lyric "farther down...", where Brian sings an ascending melody and another voice descends.

It has all the hallmarks of what a music theory student like Brian would have been assigned to write in the classroom studying theory, especially the contrary motion of the two voices (one ascends, one descends), the trade-offs where the counter voice answers the lead's quarter notes with ornamental eighth notes, and the avoidance of parallel 4ths or 5ths so it doesn't sound like Gregorian chant.

I'll say "Wonderful" - the earliest Smile version - may be the best (or only) example of Brian writing traditional counterpoint in the vocal arrangement "by the rules", or in the traditional Bach style.

And that could be why Brian plays the song on an instrument associated with Bach and his period of music - the harpsichord!

Thoughts?
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #122 on: May 13, 2014, 07:55:10 PM »

I've long noticed the  weird high voice on some of the cuts on the Little Deuce Coupe album. Off the top of my head there's one on Showboat, Spirit of America, and Betsy. I think it might actually be Mike doing a 'falsetto'... On that note, I swear the official BBs website once listed "secret falsetto" in Mike's credits... I totally forget when and cannot verify if this is true.

Mike sings a bit of falsetto on Sunflower's "All I Wanna Do". He also sings pretty darn high on the chorus of "Please Let Me Wonder" ("...if I've been the one").

Can't be him doing falsetto on "Betsy", though, since he's singing a bass part behind it. And it sounds very feminine to my ears. Maybe it's Darlene Love! Smiley
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 07:57:28 PM by c-man » Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #123 on: May 13, 2014, 08:02:00 PM »

Speaking of that early "Wonderful" version...C-man, have I been wrong for a few decades of enjoying that track to think that's Bruce singing the descending wordless melody counterpoint part? I've never asked that!
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #124 on: May 13, 2014, 09:13:38 PM »

Speaking of that early "Wonderful" version...C-man, have I been wrong for a few decades of enjoying that track to think that's Bruce singing the descending wordless melody counterpoint part? I've never asked that!

The SMiLE version? Yeah, that's Bruce, supported by the others on the yodeling bit.
Logged
gfx
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.539 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!