Health Care

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Finally, a refreshing alternative viewpoint that is not dripping with logical fallacies.

I opined earlier in this thread that the "right to health care" was a "positive right" - one that requires property to be forcibly taken from another (taxation) to enable such a "right". Positive rights are not actual rights because it is impossible to have a right to a product that you do not own. This is different than, say, owning a house - as the property owner you have a right to that property and the land it sits on. In the case of health care, we're talking about the product of someone else's labor. A "national system" is funded by taking justly acquired property from others (taxation). Taxation in and of itself is immoral and is impossible to defend without appealing to emotion, tradition, majority, or just plain good old use of ad hominems.

Now, you have a right to PURSUE health care. This means that you use whatever faculties you have at your disposal to come to mutually agreeable terms between yourself and a medical professional that do not violate the rights to life, liberty, and property of others. Indeed, this does not mean you have a right to the product itself. Health care is a product. Always has been. Always will be. Those who think otherwise have an entitlement problem and it is THEIR OWN problem - not the problem of the free market (under which health care was cheaper, more efficient, and of higher quality), which is the classic straw man used by the "right to health care" folks.

People want to blame the free market for horrible health care practices in countries like the U.S. when in reality the U.S. health care industry (alongside the education industry) functioned beautifully without government influence or regulation. Once the government influence and regulation reared its ugly head, insurance companies became the norm rather than the exception (people only carried insurance for catastrophic care, not a routine checkup), costs grew exponentially and the quality of care declined. Intellectual property laws also helped inflate the cost of prescription drugs way beyond what they're really worth. The U.S. health care system is corporatized; it is not an example of a free market and hasn't been since the Lyndon B. Johnson and his Great Society and War on Poverty.

The moral argument against a publicly-run health care system is very simple - short of a coup, the state never goes out of business. It can inflate the currency ad nauseam to keep itself in business, just like the U.S. has been doing for years to hide the fact that the U.S. government is bankrupt and running record deficits. As long as the state has a guaranteed source of income (taxpayers, inflationary practices via central banks, nations dumb enough to buy our debt) it has no impetus whatsoever to better itself. I really don't know how folks in countries with nationalized health care systems haven't taken to the streets, unless they love being on the state lollipop.

A privately-run health care system cannot possibly risk a consequence like going out of business. This brings us to the beauty of self-regulation. A privately-run industry will still be regulated, but by a much tougher group - customers and their wallets. As a result, capitalism makes things cheaper, not more expensive. If you offer a better product for less, you will win out. The same worked in health care for years. Only people so stupid and presumptuous as the cult known as "government" could ever dare challenge a system like that.

"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." - Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress

Once, again: just one guy's opinion... You'd be taken more seriously if your opinions weren't all laced with the same highly radiant anger and hatred..... You should really try taking a look from the outside in once in a while. The only reason I give you such a hard time is because you're a moderator and, stupid me maybe thinks a moderator shouldn't be so rigid and bursting with emotional/cynical violence toward the world. It just drips off you and is just really really ugly. Your opinions are representative of ONLY that.... BTW, are you OWED you moderator position here on this site?

[Bean Bag]

Half of the government is filled with people that half the country hates.  At any given time.

Yet they are willing to put their health in the government's hands.




That's some nipple-twistin' fcked-up suicidal-sht right there.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Half of the government is filled with people that half the country hates.  At any given time.

Yet they are willing to put their health in the government's hands.




That's some nipple-twistin' fcked-up suicidal-sht right there.

They're not willing! It's being done without their consent.... I don't much like putting my health in some giant for profit corporation either, yet we do it every day. Hell,we put our health in the public's hands whenever we get inside a car or bus! .... You guys are just blinded by hatred for government of any sort. There is no rationality behind it and it's all self image based, and blind, irrational hatred does no one any good.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Funniest thing about you guys is: if we had no government and some dodge city "armed" society, healthcare would most likely be either free or administered under the barrel of a gun.....

[Jason]

Once, again: just one guy's opinion... You'd be taken more seriously if your opinions weren't all laced with the same highly radiant anger and hatred..... You should really try taking a look from the outside in once in a while. The only reason I give you such a hard time is because you're a moderator and, stupid me maybe thinks a moderator shouldn't be so rigid and bursting with emotional/cynical violence toward the world. It just drips off you and is just really really ugly. Your opinions are representative of ONLY that.... BTW, are you OWED you moderator position here on this site?

So it's because I'm a moderator with an alleged status of being "so rigid and bursting with emotional/cynical violence toward the world" that you give me a hard time...congratulations. You proved my earlier point about prejudice and discrimination better than I ever could.

Taking a look from the outside in is what turned me away from statism. I used to be the "social justice" type and then I grew up.

I'm also not owed my moderator position on here.

[Mike's Beard]

But if healthcare was offered at more competitive rates, who here would go for the cheaper option (unless financially they had no choice)? You often pay for what you get in life, would you be willing to pay Russian Roulette with your health? If one guy is willing to offer his services for less, how do you know you won't end up with this guy.....

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Once, again: just one guy's opinion... You'd be taken more seriously if your opinions weren't all laced with the same highly radiant anger and hatred..... You should really try taking a look from the outside in once in a while. The only reason I give you such a hard time is because you're a moderator and, stupid me maybe thinks a moderator shouldn't be so rigid and bursting with emotional/cynical violence toward the world. It just drips off you and is just really really ugly. Your opinions are representative of ONLY that.... BTW, are you OWED you moderator position here on this site?

So it's because I'm a moderator with an alleged status of being "so rigid and bursting with emotional/cynical violence toward the world" that you give me a hard time...congratulations. You proved my earlier point about prejudice and discrimination better than I ever could.

Taking a look from the outside in is what turned me away from statism. I used to be the "social justice" type and then I grew up.

I'm also not owed my moderator position on here.

you've only proven that you're hateful and angry and will keep shadowboxing away and whatever real and imagined enemies come near your cave..... Not prejudice or discrimination. Just calling it as I see it.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

But if healthcare was offered at more competitive rates, who here would go for the cheaper option (unless financially they had no choice)? You often pay for what you get in life, would you be willing to pay Russian Roulette with your health? If one guy is willing to offer his services for less, how do you know you won't end up with this guy.....

Good doctors (ie: expensive ones) make mistakes all the time, frequently deadly ones, just as cheap jack ones do.

[Bean Bag]

Half of the government is filled with people that half the country hates.  At any given time.

Yet they are willing to put their health in the government's hands.




That's some nipple-twistin' fcked-up suicidal-sht right there.

They're not willing! It's being done without their consent.... I don't much like putting my health in some giant for profit corporation either, yet we do it every day. Hell,we put our health in the public's hands whenever we get inside a car or bus! .... You guys are just blinded by hatred for government of any sort. There is no rationality behind it and it's all self image based, and blind, irrational hatred does no one any good.

If I don't like the service I'm getting from the GOVERNMENT, then what's my recourse?  There's no other options!!!!

If I decide that some evil "for-profit" CORPORATION isn't delivering the goods... I try a different one.  Knowing this, corporations TRY to do good.  They want my bidness.  That's called INCENTIVE.  Why is this so endlessly fcking difficult for the PINKOS to understand?

You guyz are so lost... and you blame me, us... the rest of the country that isn't lost.  F you guys.

I understand the commie leaders... but nothing can explain you followers.  The commie leaders -- they're getting rich.  It's a scam, with us getting fcked -- and them getting rich.  But I have nothing in my intellectual canon to explain you followers.  Are you this easily duped?  You're not getting a cut of the loot.  You're not on the payroll.  Do you actually think they're gonna share what they steal?

You followers are so disenchanted ...that you're willing to except PERMANENT disenchantment as a viable alternative.  Maybe so everybody else can be miserable... who the fck knows.

Set up your own communist utopia -- tell me how it goes.  Right?  Nope.  Never.  Shtty people with shtty ideas are never content with the rest of us having success.

[Jason]

The one thing all socialist nations have had in common is this - socialism has always been for their people, not their leaders. Case in point, look no further than North Korea. Those people starve and kill each other while the Kim family lives like kings.

[guitarfool2002]

Or look no further than Detroit.

(Non-health care...but semi-related...post ahead)

This week the former mayor of Detroit, Kwame Kilpatrick, was sent to federal prison for 28 years. This after earlier convictions that had him serving time locally for a few months.

Has everyone seen present-day Detroit, any video footage or even anything that shows the streets as they look today? Earlier this year the big news was Detroit was bankrupt. They could not pay the bills. Oh, the outrage! This is wrong! How can those (fill in the political party affiliation) allow this to happen?

To put it bluntly, a corrupt mayor, a corrupt administration laden with cronies and political allies, and a general sense of living off the people's backs getting income from work you didn't do *might* have something to do with it.

So Kwame and an old friend decided to literally strong-arm various parts of the Water Department and the construction industry. If you wanted to even get a shot at a contract with the city works dept- or Detroit in general, you and your construction company had to pay Kwame Kilpatrick's friend for such access. Then Mayor Kwame would take a piece of that payment in "tribute", just like they gave "Paulie Cicero" a tribute payment after a good score in the film Goodfellas.

Only this was a public official strong-arming Detroit companies and playing with public money, or in other words "taxpayer money". Because the amount in question came in around something like 74 million dollars.

Which is why Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick is now serving a 28 year federal sentence. See, the feds don't go into a case like that unprepared.

Reminds me of Philadelphia not too many years ago, where Mayor John Street had this criminal of a brother named Milton Street, and if you wanted to do business around the airport, especially regarding transportation, you had to arrange a meeting (in Goodfellas terms a 'sit-down') with Milton Street, who would then be able to grant access to his brother. And if you were good to Milton, he'd put a little extra effort into getting your contract bid onto his brother's desk. Oh, and if you happened to be a woman who happened to run a business and happened to be "friendly" with one of the political allies of this crew, you might just get your bid from your company in the center of His Honor's desk rather than in the "inbox" with hundreds of other bids when it came to high-profile contracts in the city. or if the bid failed, they may just have an opening for a "consultant" or an "assistant" in City Hall that would start your salary around 80-100 grand per year with benefits, and you'd only need to show up some of the time to get that salary. This in a city that every year owes more in debt than it can ever pay.

Fun stuff, right? It happened.

Getting back to the point...Both Kilpatrick and his childhood buddy were driving around their city that was bankrupt, in luxury cars paid by the taxpayers, with professional drivers, going to expensive restaurants, clubs, functions, gallery openings, entertaining celebrities, Kwame himself at one time being touted as a potential "rising star" in his party, with an eye toward higher elected office. This in a city with crippling and pathetic poverty rates, high crime rates, and a general lack of much to be positive about if you're one of those living in that poverty.

Yet when Detroit finally went bust, officially, who put any blame on Kilpatrick and that kind of public corruption that saw figures like 74 million in question? No, it's not that! Can't be, Kwame was a good mayor, he got set up, it was a conspiracy...

That's what I'm talking about - There is such a level of misinformation, of people who simply do not know what's going on in front of them yet are easily convinced by someone speaking to them with even a shred of authority in their voice, and there is at this point a dishonest and complacent, if not compliant media that acts more to deliver messages than to investigate and report facts.

That's where it comes back to health care, and I'll get into that later.

I read a story this morning about public opinion regarding the health care plan roll-outs last week. Written by the AP, total bullshit. They went so far as to say a "better deal" was available through the plans...that is blatantly false. Not just a lie but an insulting one at that.

But, consider North Korea: The leaders live in luxury, the people grovel. Consider the old Soviet Bloc nations in Europe: The leaders drive luxury cars, the people walk, take mass transit, or drive a Trabant that would fall apart in a heavy rain. Consider Detroit: Kwame Kilpatrick lives in high society and wealth with his old buddy and family, as he drives around his city he sees abject poverty and despair, shells of buildings and of a society too.

Yet, he still has his supporters living in Detroit who think he got set up. In spite of all evidence.

So you see a luxury car driving through a poverty stricken neighborhood back in the 2000's, one might think "that really takes some nerve"...then the window rolls down, you see it's Mayor Kilpatrick, the mood changes to "Good Morning Mr. Mayor!!!", and all is well?

Such is the power of keeping people under-informed and misinformed. Such is also the power of using politics to convince the non-political members of the public to blindly follow your leadership. Do what we tell you, we'll take care of the rest. When that fails, we'll mandate that you do it. Either way works for us. Right?

Off the soapbox for now.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Half of the government is filled with people that half the country hates.  At any given time.

Yet they are willing to put their health in the government's hands.




That's some nipple-twistin' fcked-up suicidal-sht right there.

They're not willing! It's being done without their consent.... I don't much like putting my health in some giant for profit corporation either, yet we do it every day. Hell,we put our health in the public's hands whenever we get inside a car or bus! .... You guys are just blinded by hatred for government of any sort. There is no rationality behind it and it's all self image based, and blind, irrational hatred does no one any good.

If I don't like the service I'm getting from the GOVERNMENT, then what's my recourse?  There's no other options!!!!

If I decide that some evil "for-profit" CORPORATION isn't delivering the goods... I try a different one.  Knowing this, corporations TRY to do good.  They want my bidness.  That's called INCENTIVE.  Why is this so endlessly fcking difficult for the PINKOS to understand?

You guyz are so lost... and you blame me, us... the rest of the country that isn't lost.  F you guys.

I understand the commie leaders... but nothing can explain you followers.  The commie leaders -- they're getting rich.  It's a scam, with us getting fcked -- and them getting rich.  But I have nothing in my intellectual canon to explain you followers.  Are you this easily duped?  You're not getting a cut of the loot.  You're not on the payroll.  Do you actually think they're gonna share what they steal?

You followers are so disenchanted ...that you're willing to except PERMANENT disenchantment as a viable alternative.  Maybe so everybody else can be miserable... who the fck knows.

Set up your own communist utopia -- tell me how it goes.  Right?  Nope.  Never.  Shtty people with shtty ideas are never content with the rest of us having success.

It's because we're not pinkos, moron!

Oh, and hanging around this board 24/7 posting little pictures and calling people pinkos is a sure sign of success?

You don't know a damn thing about me! I think Obamacare is crap, but your imaginary corporate incentive has killed many a person. So, what do we do? Well, we neither bend over for Obamacare nor your blessed corporate incentive! We think is what we do and we come up with solutions while YOU park your ass on the couch and cry foul! You think I'm some beret wearing communist because I dare question your fat complacency? Hell no! I don't want some communist wasteland but I don't want a corporate oligarchy either. And it doesn't have to be either
 one. So quit calling well meaning people who see clearly communists/pinkos because you are dead wrong.

[Mike's Beard]

Tags become meaningless when the politician is crooked, The last few posts show that a commie society or a democratic society both have an equal opportunity to trample over the little guy if the person(s) running the show are corrupt. Do we judge a system by it's greatest success or it's biggest failure?

[Wild-Honey]

Also I believe that Wild Honey is from Australia, a country with one of the strictest rulings on immigration in the world. So to have her claim that my wishing for less migrants in my own country is 'racist bile' sets the bells of irony ringing in my ears.

Australia has insane rules and attitudes towards immigration.  It's proving to be a real challenge for both sides of the political fence; and dividing the community.

However, Wild Honey's personal politics are not on the table, where as your's are - your claim of irony is guilt by association; and a generalisation based on policy that is not within Wild Honey's control.  And, therfore, a bit ropey.  Perhaps the bells of irony ringing in your ears is really the sound of yourself drawing a long, long (really long) bow.

Wild Honey is cool - if you've got a problem with her, you've got a problem with me...and I'm sure you're probably peeing in your pants, filling out your deed poll form and packing up your house at the thought of that.

*Sigh* - one of my personal rules here is to not get involved in anyone else's arguments - especially in the Wild West that is the Sandbox. But I think this thread has gone "beyond its (mother-fuckin') remit", so how about we get back to the facts and get it back on track.

And RBB, comon', set an example...

Thanks for your support Al, it means a lot

[Mike's Beard]

Yes, excellent piece of white knighting.

[Bean Bag]

Thomas Sowell on the concept of "diversity".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVuLyE8ZvdI

Yup.  I know we're way off topic (and for a reason, since liberals are always unable to communicate, articulate and defend their positions through to the end, and arrive at a cogent conclusion -- thus leading the conversation off-topic at any chance they get to avoid their obvious defeat)... but, I just gotta say -- that's totally awesome.  "Diversity" is a scam.  It's a manufactured front in the Marxist war on Capitalism.  Divide and Concur.

Everybody's different for a reason.  People are individuals.  "Diversity" -- the industry we know today -- puts us into groups and tribes.  Just the opposite (as usual) from what Leftists claim it is.

Says the biggest and most blustering proud-to-be-a-hardcore-tribe member on this board....

Most of your crap is just motivated by attacking your childish concept of "other" "them" "liberals" lefties" because YOUR idea of what those words mean insults your self image as a big-bad Republican swinging dick..... Try walking it like you talk it for once.

Translation please

Try reading the damn thing, blowhard. However, you know damn well what it means.

Are you saying that I have my own "tribe."  And that I am a hypocrite for see "diversity" as a scam that puts us into tribes.  It's a weak point.

I don't want Americans to be separated into warring factions.  I don't want our President to whisper in the ear of one team "if I had a son, he would have looked like us.  Not them."  I don't want that.  I want that to go far, far away.  Life is difficult enough already.  Look at the resources we've expelled to deal with this nonsense.

I don't want people -- who previously had health care -- to lose it, and I don't want them to pay fines because they did.  Nor do I want them to pay more and get less.  Who wants that!?  I don't want ANYTHING the Left is doing.  Nobody does.  Yet because it's their team -- people support it.  No matter what colorful language you use -- realizing all this does not make me like that.  Seeing a villain is not akin to being a villain.

[Bean Bag]

It's because we're not pinkos, moron!

Oh, and hanging around this board 24/7 posting little pictures and calling people pinkos is a sure sign of success?

You don't know a damn thing about me! I think Obamacare is crap, but your imaginary corporate incentive has killed many a person. So, what do we do? Well, we neither bend over for Obamacare nor your blessed corporate incentive! We think is what we do and we come up with solutions while YOU park your ass on the couch and cry foul! You think I'm some beret wearing communist because I dare question your fat complacency? Hell no! I don't want some communist wasteland but I don't want a corporate oligarchy either. And it doesn't have to be either
 one. So quit calling well meaning people who see clearly communists/pinkos because you are dead wrong.

Speaking of dead wrong, I'm trying hard to imagine your imaginary predictions of "corporate incentive killing many a person."  What is that sht?  If we're talking health care and can refrain from reciting verbatim the low-brow, pinko manifesto pamphlet you snagged at some campus rally -- I don't see corporations killing anybody....

I only see doctors who take an oath to treat people no matter what.  I see drug companies making all sorts of new medicines -- competing to get things tested and to market.  And I see that fading.  I see insurances companies attempting to deliver a product that GOVERNMENT ENTITIES have purposefully knee-capped into the stratospheres of failure.  So its citizens get so enraged that they turn to the only savior left, in their minds -- Big Government.

Remember the story that GFool related awhile ago... the ol' world scam of paying for protection from the very people that are selling the protection.  Do you ever watch mob movies?  This stuff is plain as day Pinder.  C'mon!!

[Mike's Beard]

Are you saying that I have my own "tribe."  And that I am a hypocrite for see "diversity" as a scam that puts us into tribes.  It's a weak point.

I don't want Americans to be separated into warring factions.  I don't want our President to whisper in the ear of one team "if I had a son, he would have looked like us.  Not them."  I don't want that.  I want that to go far, far away.  Life is difficult enough already.  Look at the resources we've expelled to deal with this nonsense.

I don't want people -- who previously had health care -- to lose it, and I don't want them to pay fines because they did.  Nor do I want them to pay more and get less.  Who wants that!?  I don't want ANYTHING the Left is doing.  Nobody does.  Yet because it's their team -- people support it.

Pinder doesn't want it either. He has said it several times. There does seem to be a mindset these days that people should be satisfied with less, because they should be grateful that things are could be much, much worse - not acceptable IMO.

So what's the solution? Where do you turn? The corporate fatcats who control the healthcare market are sticking it to the customer and the government are now helping them do so. The same government which is supposed to have it's people's best interests at heart. Would no government regulation make it better or worse?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well put, Mike's Beard!

Bean Boy: I AGREE with you, about 98% and that leftover 2% does not make me a pinko!

Like, I said before: no Government regulation: well, we've seen where that went, NO GOVERNMENT:  healthcare would be free.....

[Bean Bag]

We don't have a competitive insurance market right now.  Please, if you get ONE thing out of all this bickering -- understand this.  What we have is NOTHING like a free market insurance industry.  It's an incestuous gov't/corporate fascist relationship.

The solution is always -- ALWAYS -- to get the gubmint out.  I realize that's a "hatchet" approach that scares a lot of people... but desperate times, etc.  It only seems scary because people have been conditioned to believe A) gov't has a our best interests at heart and B) corporations are evil.

Both of those misconceptions are the result of fascist propaganda.  This is what fascists do.  They take over corporations, eat its brains, make the lifeless body do their gov't biding (think fascists) and create the staged impression that the corporation still exists.  And when things naturally go to hell (are we there yet?), they blame the host body, kill it in front of the angry mobs of people and toss the lifeless corporate corpse to the side of the road.  And yes, that includes the thousands of jobs at the dead corporation, in case you were concerned.

THIS IS WHERE IT MUST START.  We can't even begin to talk about anything else until we get rid of the parasite.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

We don't have a competitive insurance market right now.  Please, if you get ONE thing out of all this bickering -- understand this.  What we have is NOTHING like a free market insurance industry.  It's an incestuous gov't/corporate fascist relationship.

The solution is always -- ALWAYS -- to get the gubmint out.  I realize that's a "hatchet" approach that scares a lot of people... but desperate times, etc.  It only seems scary because people have been conditioned to believe A) gov't has a our best interests at heart and B) corporations are evil.

Both of those misconceptions are the result of fascist propaganda.  This is what fascists do.  They take over corporations, eat its brains, make the lifeless body do their gov't biding (think fascists) and create the staged impression that the corporation still exists.  And when things naturally go to hell (are we there yet?), they blame the host body, kill it in front of the angry mobs of people and toss the lifeless corporate corpse to the side of the road.  And yes, that includes the thousands of jobs at the dead corporation, in case you were concerned.

THIS IS WHERE IT MUST START.  We can't even begin to talk about anything else until we get rid of the parasite.

Get rid of what, Government???

There would be NO free market with no Government. I know you HATE HATE HATE Government but it's the only thing standing in the way of complete chaos ...... I really wonder how much you guys have traveled..... My dad was an airline captain and I'd been to more countries than I could count by the time I was in junior high. I sustained some injuries on the major side of minor in New Zealand while skiing and got amazing care. Do you think for a second I was angry at humanity for not having to pay? Hell no! .... You guys who sit here just so cocksure that we have it best here in the US and that anyone/everyone in ANY other part of the world lives in absolute misery and are jealous of us: you are severely deluded..... Other countries have their downsides, but so does the US....  Bean, you talk about Gov/Corporate fascism, yet you only talk about doing away with one element: Government .... I believe neither that the Government has our best interests nor do I believe that corporation are evil.... There are BAD corporations and there is BAD government. TODAY: they are so intertwined to be one and the same.

You are right that something drastic needs to be done: hatchet approach as you call it. I'm not afraid of that but am certainly afraid of those who's opinions are so one sided/ridged and severe that they allow themselves to become gleefully deluded.... Bean, get rid of Government and your blessed free market will not save the world.....

[Bean Bag]

Don't be so extreme Pin.

It's not raining cats and dogs yet.  I mean, inside.  Fire and brimstone is not raining down inside our homes... aaaaannnd I'm pretty sure there's no Government around the house.  To clean the dishes.  Mow the hedges.  Broom the dog.  You know... that sort of stuff.

We also shouldn't need insurance for a toothache and an upset tummy.  But that's the goal. Right? 



Listen... I'll call it "Free Market."  You call it.... "All day sunshine, goodness."  Hell... call it "free healthcare!"  What do I care.  You may be on to something.  Seriously... the gov't will still be around; check in on ya at night.  Read yo email.

 

[guitarfool2002]

Something to ponder:

When the structure of what would be the US government was being established, and a Constitution being written to establish it in writing, consider these questions.

Was it a list of rules and regulations designed for a government to use to keep its citizens in line and under control, establishing a set of laws for the public to follow and the government to enforce?

Or was it a list of rules and regulations for the government to follow, along with structural checks and balances, established to prevent a centralized government from assuming too much power over its citizens, or any branch of that government from assuming too much power over another branch?

Only one answer is correct, and to the credit of the authors, unambiguously so...and written that way for a specific reason.

Food for thought.

[Bean Bag]

What was Obama's famous quote on this very subject?

Paraphrasing -- "the Constitution is set of NEGATIVE liberties... only saying what the government can't do... not what it can do..."

Oh boy.  You see... that's why you have to actually attend the class to get a degree (or for that matter, actually do something to get a Nobel Peace Prize).  And that's why Obama's grades are STILL SEALED from public view.



Fascism is here.  Watch.  You can put the history books down America -- cuz it's here.  Watch it unfold and tell your grandkids you saw fascism when it came to America.

[guitarfool2002]

My frustration level is very high with all of this, especially in the last two days. I can go on here posting account after account of the problems this Affordable Care Act is causing, how inept and incompetent the "roll out" has turned out to be, how few people are actually signing up for it, or not even being able to get to the proper screen on the websites to sign up...

Then I'm channel-surfing last night, I hit on a political roundtable show during a commercial break of my current retro favorite the original "Mission Impossible"...for fans, they're on the later seasons now, specifically the season where Lynda Day George was pregnant and they had Barbara Anderson filling in...

Anyway, after all the reports like mine, after people like me with no political activism connections or affiliations have been reporting what kinds of problems we're now facing thanks to THIS LAW and the party which passed it, the "talking heads" and supporters of this party simply refuse to hear about the facts. Peoples' insurance rates going up literally a few thousand dollars, peoples' deductibles reaching impossible levels to meet on an average salary...yet these supporters and political hacks continue to deflect the questions, ignore the points being made, and try to find some new boogeyman and catch-phrase to blame for "trying to derail a plan that will help millions of Americans!"

Bullshit. Bullshit. (repeated for emphasis...   )

Let me pose one question, anyone reading please consider this, and I seriously would like to hear reactions to this and opinions. I'm posting it in bold, comment followed by question:

"Follow your own laws, follow the laws you wrote and passed for the rest of us."

Why are the politicians and their staff employees not required to "comply" with the Affordable Care Act if they wrote the law ordering all Americans to follow it?