Thoughts on "Where Is She?" and Brian's 'Sunflower' voice

[Jim V.]

So since Made In California came out, I've been addicted to it, and I've listened two songs from it more than any others, those being "Where Is She?" and the demo version of "California Feelin'."

Well anyways, I remember seeing stuff about "Where Is She?" being some kinda thing with a Rhythm King machine and Brian on piano singing up high. Now I have to wonder if what we are hearing on this set is actually different from what was originally in the vaults. For instance, was there originally a piano on the track? Likely Brian pounded out the chords as he usually does? It seems like people such as AGD and Peter Reum both spoke of "Where Is She?" as a piano-based thing if I recall correctly. Or maybe it was really just recorded with Brian on organ? As this is basically how the song sounds now on the set?

Now another thing I noticed is that Brian's voice on this cut is quite different from the guy who sang "Don't Worry Baby" a few years earlier. Shoot, it's even different from the guy who did "Don't Talk". It's much more shrill and there just seemed to be something different about his voice even at this early point. I feel that his voice worked much better in the context he did end up using it in on Sunflower, which was quick little lead lines here and there, but nothing prolonged really. His lead vocal parts of "This Whole World", "Add Some Music" and "Cool, Cool Water" really enhanced those songs. However I feel like his leads on stuff like "Where Is She?" (as great as it is) and "Awake" can kinda grate after awhile. It seems that even before the big vocal change in 1975, he really did relinquish his role as a main vocalist in the group to Carl. Just compare Carl's vocal on the original "This Whole World" to the previously unreleased a cappella version featuring Brian singing an additional part.

I don't think there is a doubt to any of us that Carl sounded much more professional, assured, and just plain better than Brian did. It seemed that by the late '60s or early '70s Brian just wasn't developing his "instrument" in the way that Carl was which is why Carl's voice seemed to get richer over time (discounting most of '75 to '77) whereas Brian was really hit or miss from then 'til even today (which isn't to say that Brian hasn't had some great vocal performances in the past 40 years). And now don't get me wrong, I loved hearing previously unreleased Brian vocals from the Sunflower era, especially those previously unreleased "This Whole World" verse vocals, but it did help me to figure out why it was Carl singing stuff like this, "Marcella" and others, rather than Brian taking a shot at singing lead on his own songs.

[MBE]

I don't hear him changing much for the worse  in 1969. Maybe older, but through 1971 at very least I think he sounded great. I actually like Brian at this point a lot as a singer. Carl had a different sort of voice, stronger in some ways, but I love the tone of Brian in his twenties.

[monicker]

Re: Where Is She: I think those piano chords we're hearing at the beginning is clearly from a different recording, likely the one you're referring to. Perhaps there is a demo (or a rougher demo if the MiC version is to be considered a demo) with piano and Rhythm King. Maybe that'll be on the Love and Mercy soundtrack!

I am really fascinated by Brian's Sunflower voice. The Awake demo and Where Is She, i think, are the clearest examples we have. It's such a particular sound, and it seems to have sounded like that for only that brief period. It's incredibly, incredibly reedy. I have a friend who is a huge fan of This Whole World and she always thought that the a cappella ending featured a harmonica. She couldn't believe it when i told her that was Brian's voice. I wonder, did this tone come to him naturally or was he affecting his voice? Also, did Desper do anything in particular (mic selection, EQ) to emphasize that vocal character? Did it maybe sound less severe in person and more pronounced on record? Or did he really sound like that if you were standing in a room with him listening to him sing? Sunflower as a whole is EQed in a way that even some of the instruments have this same kind of reediness so it's an interesting thing to consider.   

[Jim V.]

I don't hear him changing much for the worse  in 1969. Maybe older, but through 1971 at very least I think he sounded great. I actually like Brian at this point a lot as a singer. Carl had a different sort of voice, stronger in some ways, but I love the tone of Brian in his twenties.

Really Mike? I think he basically sounds like "classic Brian" through 20/20 at least. But listen to the alternate "Break Away." He just doesn't sound as powerful, crisp, clear or plainly good as Carl did. As I said, I think that despite his lack of extended leads on Sunflower, I think he was used in key situations as far as leads go and they worked out well. Same thing with "'Til I Die."

But anyways, my point is I feel like his upper-register vocals from things like "Awake" are definitely pointing the way towards towards a vocal like "She's Got Rhythm," which to me, just isn't very enjoyable because of the shrillness of the vocal. I really do think that his vocal changes really do start in the late '60s and culminates in 1975 where he develops of a voice that one might not have recognized as Brian Wilson. However, at the same time, I do hear some of the "younger Brian" in his lead vocal on the opening of the 1978 "California Feelin'." I almost feel like if he woulda watched it he might have made it into the '80s with a voice that was more like what people thought Brian's voice should sound like.

But at the same time, while it used to bum me out that he sounded so different on a lot of the post-1975 material, I've actually come to enjoy quite a lot of the stuff. I really his vocals from stuff like "Stevie" from the early '80s to "Summer's Gone" from last year.

[Gabo]

I don't sense much of a change in his voice at this point, besides his slightly reedy falsetto. I think he may have been using his "head voice" even more than he was in the early 60s in the Sunflower era, but his voice is virtually unchanged.  His "tired eye" vocal on Add Some Music sounds exactly like the same Brian of Pet Sounds, for example.

It's anyway amazing how much his voice changed in only half a decade. Maybe more tragic than amazing... 

[MBE]

Cool, Cool, Water shows Brian matching his 1967 parts perfect in 1970. Break Away is hard to judge. I always felt he was trying to teach Carl certain lines and singing them a little bit different in pitch. Brian's voice sometimes showed signs of cracking or strain early on too, like the live Don't Worry Baby from 1964 (first released in 1990), California Girls live on Jack Benny, even the Surf's Up Inside Pop is raw. When I heard things like Awake, or Where Is She I was impressed by how good he sounded really.

I've always felt Brian sounded the way he did pre Pet Sounds because he was really young. Carl's voice changed a lot around 1970 when he was around 24 too, not for the worse, but there were some higher parts he was doing in 1966-69 that I never heard much later. I think Brian would have filled out, sung lower, but still had a special voice.

[Dave Modny]

I don't sense much of a change in his voice at this point, besides his slightly reedy falsetto. I think he may have been using his "head voice" even more than he was in the early 60s in the Sunflower era, but his voice is virtually unchanged.  His "tired eye" vocal on Add Some Music sounds exactly like the same Brian of Pet Sounds, for example.

Or...his vocals for the Soulful Old Man Sunshine demo and Games Two Can Play -- recorded only 2-4 weeks, respectively, before Where Is She. That is, not really all that removed from anything on Wild Honey or Friends.



I also think in the case of those two tracks -- Where Is She and Awake -- *some* of the shrillness/reediness comes down to simple double-tracking and the recording methods (maybe even the gear), as well as the way he's singing it.

[Sam_BFC]

I think it is interesting how soft he sounds on the Wild Honey era Surf's Up.  I know this is pre the era being discussed here, but I don't know of any recording before or after where he sounded so sweet and soft.  Even something like Caroline, No (1966) sounds more like those reedy vocals that were to come at the end of the 60s.

[Smile4ever]

I had another thread a while back about each member's voice in different eras. Brian had such a youthful sound in the early days. I think it matured and reached its peak in the Pet Sounds/Smile era. From maybe 1969 and beyond you start to hear the subtle differences, at least in his falsetto. The falsetto and high range no longer had the sweetness of his earlier years. The song "Good Time" is a nice example of this. I like the song but there are some points during the song that are a little difficult to listen to. Obviously it's not a crazy dramatic change (like his mid-70s voice was) but there is definitely a subtle difference.

[Pablo.]

After the premiere of his "raspy" voice on 15BO, Brian said that his old-falsetto voice made him sound like (his words) "a fairy". That Sunflower-era vocals (Where is she, Awake, his bits on Slip on through and Forever) are his "most fairy" vocals. Love 'em, though

[Wirestone]

This is all very interesting. Because so much of the classic Brian sound is a falsetto (with a lot of head voice, admittedly), his basic sound is something unnatural. He made it sound easy and flowing, of course, but it wasn't. I think that as Brian's voice changed due to age, illness and abuse (and he was doing all of those things very young), the willpower and dedication needed to make his voice do those unnatural things decreased. And when he simply had to sing in his "normal voice," perhaps he didn't quite have an innate sense of what that was.

You also have the engineering and double tracking issues. No question, in my mind, that Desper's approach has a lot to do with how Brian sounds on Sunflower. I mean, listen to how Brian sounds on projects he does with Joe Thomas as opposed to Mark L. Both use Autotune, but the quality of Brian's voice sounds quite different on each.

There's studio versus live, too. Some folks here were talking about how Brian sounded so different in his studio vocals starting in 98 or so (a more relaxed approach) as opposed to his 80s and early 90s sound (strained and shouty). Yet, if you see Brian live, he'll often sing in a voice that's much closer to the Paley sessions than his most recent studio discs. So which one is the real voice?

Obviously I've talked a lot about recent Brian here in a post that's about historic Brian. But I think it's unavoidable when you consider how different he sounds on various albums (and live appearances) recorded over relatively brief spans of time. No one factor explains what's going on. It's a complex nexus of issues, not the least of which are simply self-confidence and a willingness to expend effort in the studio.

[Ram4]

I can give two general examples of singers who were known for their high register and then it came down.

Robert Plant.  If you listen to anything pre-1972, especially on bootlegs he not only had the high range if he wanted to (without falsetto), but it had power as well.  In late 1971 into 1972 he started to lose that a bit and by their June 72 tour he was singing a lot of high parts with a falsetto - still high, but more shrill like Brian in 1969.  In October 1972 he completely was losing it on stage, and you can hear him constantly cracking when trying to reach the high notes.  By January 1973, it was over for his original high range.  Like Brian, Robert smoked and didn't take care of his voice.  He also developed nodes on his vocal chords while on tour in Texas 1971 (hot outside, cold A/C inside over and over).

Geddy Lee.  A lot of people will assume he never lost his high range, but he certainly did.  He sang with his original range/voice until late 1976, then sang with the falsetto thing still high until about 1982 (again, like Brian during Sunflower), then he too lost it a bit.  He also smoked back then.

So it seems like Brian was following that typical pattern which seems to occur to these type of singers who smoke and don't take care of their voice.

[bonnevillemariner]

I can hardly stand Brian's vocals from the mid-70's until the early 2000's.  It makes me sad because his young voice, in many people's minds, is the embodies the signature sound of the Beach Boys.  Sure, you've got Mike's leads, but that omnipresent, omnipotent falsetto to many IS the BB sound.

What's really interesting is how distinctive Brian's voice is still, despite the radical change.  I played a track from In the Key of Disney for some family members the other day, in the background, on my phone, without telling them who they were listening to.  These are casual BB fans who only know them from movie soundtracks and oldies stations.  I'd be surprised if any of them have even heard any post Pet Sounds tracks.  Yet not 3 bars into "We Belong Together" and 3 of my sisters simultaneously ask, "Is this Beach Boys?"

[Autotune]

Interesting topic.

I think Brian must have had identity issues with his own style as a singer. The singing style of the other guys did not change much over the years, other than what age and experience do to you. But it's hard to tell that the guy that sings Barbie is the same guy that sings Baker Man, or You're so Good to me, or I'd Love just once to see you, or Keep an eye on Summer. These were recorded during a span of like 5-6 years... age seems very relative an issue here, but the search for a sincere expression of one's own sound seems not. My impression is that Brian always felt insecure or uncomfortable with his voice and kept searching for a style of his own-- he succeeded, of course, but the results probably never pleased him. And the fact that, as Wirestone puts it, his most distinctive style is an "unnatural" one like falsetto, or an imitation of Bob Flanigan, or the guy from the Modern Folk Quartet or whoh knows... is very telling.

I just think that he grew uncomfortable with his voice into his thirties (Where is she being an example) and kept changing his style even to this day.

[Bean Bag]

I've never been fond of his "Sunflower voice."  It sounds thin and a little gimmicky.  Maybe even insincere.  Like he's singing more from the throat -- and pushing it hard, and getting nasal.  Someone said "reedy."  Perhaps it was all he could do to reach those notes... because his voice had maybe changed.  Sitting in bed, smoking 6 packs a day will reed your voice up.  Just ask Lucille Ball.

I notice it on Friends, too.  Two years earlier.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I notice it on Friends, too.

I agree. I think we had a recent thread about when Brian's voice peaked/started to go downhill. I also agree that by "Awake" and "Where Is She", it had regressed a full "grade". You can feel the push or the strain he was putting into those high notes. I think Brian felt that, too. I mean, there has to be some good reason why Brian hardly has any lead vocals from 20/20 thru Holland. Maybe Brian didn't like the sound of his own voice!

This topic and the wonderful Dennis Wilson lead vocals we've been hearing on MIC really have me thinking a lot about the deterioration in Brian and Dennis' voice, ESPECIALLY in Dennis. For years I have obsessed over Brian ruining his voice in that short period - arguably 1974-75. It is a tragedy, such a loss of greatness. But now - now - I have to INCLUDE Dennis in that category, too. Thankfully, Dennis found a way for his voice/vocals to work after his voice was ruined. I CAN find much enjoyment in Dennis' vocals on Pacific Ocean Blue, unlike a lot of Brian's post-1975 vocal work. But, when you listen to WIBNTLA, you can't help but feel, like Brian, what was truly lost. So sad...

[pixletwin]

I might be in the minority on this, but I actually prefer Dennis' post 74 vocals. To imagine him singing something like "Farewell My Friend" or "Moonshine" with his pre-74 vocals is impossible. Aside from the timbre, he achieved something truly soulful in his vocals in the mid to late 70's that is lacking in his earlier vocals.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I might be in the minority on this, but I actually prefer Dennis' post 74 vocals. To imagine him singing something like "Farewell My Friend" or "Moonshine" with his pre-74 vocals is impossible. Aside from the timbre, he achieved something truly soulful in his vocals in the mid to late 70's that is lacking in his earlier vocals.

While I don't prefer Dennis' post-1974 vocals, I do agree with you about "Farewell My Friend", Moonshine" - and "Thoughts Of You". And "Time". And "End Of The Show". You can feel his pain, his loss. But, while Dennis could still excel in those types of songs, he started to struggle in some of the other songs. It's a matter of opinion, but I'm not overly fond of "In The Still Of The Night", Mona", and partly "I Wanna Pick You Up". Some of those Bambu tracks are rough, too.

[Shady]

Where is she is incredible.

Just got my copy of MIC today and was shocked to see Brian wrote it all by himself

[pixletwin]

True but then I think Dennis, as an artist, had progressed beyond songs like that. They were not a good fit for him. It would be a bit like hearing John Lennon singing "Mrs. Brown You Have A Lovely Daughter" in 1970.

[Aric Keith]

The late 60's/early 70's voice is very recognizable as Brian, although it has changed. You can hear this even earlier, for instance on the Lei'd in Hawaii stuff. I think around '66 he started singing that way stylistically, not because of any change his voice was going through. That's just my opinion, but I think it was part of being more hip, and creative.

One way to track this is his speaking voice- up to that time, his speaking voice hadn't changed much. It was a touch lower, but not much. By '74, though, it was much burlier and raspy, and his singing followed suit. By the mid 80's his speaking voice had gotten a higher, but more nasal quality and... also  his singing voice.

Also, based on his speaking voice, his early 60s voice seemed to fit quite well. I don't think it was a put on, although it was derivative. His speaking voice had a lilting, supple alto quality to it and so did his singing. His range was exceptional, even without falsetto. And his falsetto transitioned beautifually to and from his full voice, something that many many singers never can do.

Aric

[petzounds29]

 Where Is She sure reminds me of Sailplane Song and somewhat of My Solution -check em  out

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

I have always wondered if the relative decline of Brian's singing voice, especially compared to say, Carl, had to do with the fact that he rarely performed live. I mean, Carl and the boys were out there every other night or whatever, giving their voices a thorough workout, while Brian only occasionally sang in the studio. There was no way he'd be able to keep up, right? Use it or lose it

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Aric, good point about Brian's speaking voice. What really blew my mind while listening to CF74 was his speaking voice at the very end of the track. He sounds EXACTLY like he would 3 years later in the opening of 'That Special Feeling' ('cassette rolling?').  

I think there's a very good reason for why he sounded so different on 15 BO and (to a lesser extent) Love You...

I think that as Brian's voice changed due to age, illness and abuse (and he was doing all of those things very young), the willpower and dedication needed to make his voice do those unnatural things decreased. And when he simply had to sing in his "normal voice," perhaps he didn't quite have an innate sense of what that was.

Good points, Clay, but I think there's something that many are missing. He recorded very few vocals in 1972-1975. In 1972, he tried out several different singing styles with Spring, and his few vocals on So Tough sounded like MIU Brian minus the rasp (notable exception being his 1976 sound on his vocals for He Come Down)/ 1973 still sounds like Brian of 1969-1971, but is singing a bit differently (the opening of 'California' is him using his 15BO style minus the rasp). 1974 was the change. Although he seemingly sounded okay on 'Rollin' Up To Heaven', on closer inspection the falsetto sounded like his MIU voice. We've heard CF now, so we know how he sounded there. We've heard almost nothing from 1975, but his backups for the Johnny Rivers 'Help Me Rhonda' and the other song he did (can't remember the artist's name, but I remember it was a female singer) were real bad. His voice was already changed by that point. The question is, to what extent? There's a very good reason why Brian's 1978 voice is almost the same as it was in 1974. Why did he sound so rough on 15 BO? I've stated before that some of it was a put on...you can hear Brian experimenting with his vocal style starting in 1972, like he wanted to be a different singer. Hell, he even disguised his voice on MT Vernon & Fairway and Child Of Winter the following year. But, there's also something else.

Muscle memory. Or, the loss of.

I mentioned above that Brian rarely sang as the years went on. The coke and smokes, combined with snorting heroin (...), definitely damaged his voice. Nobody is disputing that. You take a singer and shred the sh*t out of his voice for a couple of years, well, that doesn't lead to anything good. However, if that same singer goes from, say, 12 Nov 1974 thru 29 May 1975 (and then for 3 1/2 months later) without laying down vocals while continuing to abuse their voice ...15 Big Ones is the result. Vocally, he was rustier than a hobo's botulism-laden can of pork &  beans. He basically had to relearn to sing. Not only was his voice damaged, he was out of practice. That's why he sounded a bit better on LY, and a hell of a lot better on MIU (and other things recorded in 1978). The funny part is, by the time MIU rolled around Brian had been off the wagon for quite a while. So, it's the combination of him not trying to sound like Randy Newman and having sung more often recently that made him sound like he did 4 years previously.

With that in mind, by 1979 the damage was permanent, and this time the worsening voice was no put-on. I think his divorce from Marilyn caused a further downward spiral equivalent to when Murry passed in 1973. As bad as he sounded most of the time in 1976, they were worlds away from 1980. Difference between trying to f*** up your voice on purpose while also trying to sound worse than you actually were, and having already ruined it. Best analogy I can come up with? In 1974, Brian's voice sounded like the vocal equivalent of  hurting yourself while zipping your fly. From 1978-1981*, it was the equivalent of putting your dick in a wood chipper.


*I'm sure 1982 was worse, but it's not like was singing either.

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MarcellaHasDirtyFeet (great user name) and i had the same idea

[Aric Keith]

I have always wondered if the relative decline of Brian's singing voice, especially compared to say, Carl, had to do with the fact that he rarely performed live. I mean, Carl and the boys were out there every other night or whatever, giving their voices a thorough workout, while Brian only occasionally sang in the studio. There was no way he'd be able to keep up, right? Use it or lose it

Your voice definitely gets weaker when you don't use it enough, but it won't lead to actual tonal change. On the other hand, people who over use their voices, especially outside their actual "normal" range (Robert Plant was mentioned, he'd be a perfect example), can develop substantial vocal changes over the years. In other words, over use would be more detrimental than under use.

Aric