Do you think the early material ('62-'65) is better than Smile?

[Hank Briarstem]

Ah yes, "Bowling Without Trophies," what was to be the centerpiece of the lost Smile album until the Smile album we know itself became the lost Smile album. Was it Al Jardine who complained when our boys entered a tournament that offered no trophies? And Carl a scratch bowler! I believe it was in Toledo in 1965, though it might have been in Japan a year earlier. I have taken my pills. Ah you scrawny, healthy youngsters!

"Don't Worry Baby," the magic of our lives. How many know that it was a metaphor for a bowling tournament or of Brian's angst at having notably large thumbs?

[Summertime Blooz]

The early albums all have at least a few amazing songs, But Smile and Pet Sounds represent the Beach Boys creative peak with beautiful sounds, meaningful lyrics, and boundary-pushing artistry.

[Cam Mott]

Where does the Oatmeal album fit in this continuum? Wasn't that like a Tuesday afternoon of February 6 1968 between 1:38 pm and Flipper at 7:00 pm PST?

[Hank Briarstem]

Roughly, yes, Cameron. So difficult to pinpoint, Dennis having been the official timekeeper. Oh those lovely distractions! Bonita, my third wife, I believe, though common law, was quite a distraction herself, bada bing. Yet we know "Mi Casa es Su Casa" was recorded that day, Paul McCartney on bongos. So we have some hard evidence. I was there at the time, I believe, though possibly only in spirit. The mind wanders.

[Cam Mott]

But seriously.

(tumbleweed)

We can argue about our ideas of "heart" etc., but to my mind it was with SMiLE just as Brian (and others) said back in the day: he had a problem mostly with the lyrics. My guess at his problem with the lyrics is he was very public about wanting the album to be spiritual, religious, humorous but most of the VDP lyrics are like a depressing history lesson about immigrant's plight and jingoism and gun violence and other issues that I'm guessing he did not find to be spiritual, religious, or humorous.

Looking at Smiley Smile, Brian pretty much de-VDP-History-Lessoned Smile and f***ed with the formula far beyond what he was doing in SMiLE imo.

[Cam Mott]

Roughly, yes, Cameron. So difficult to pinpoint, Dennis having been the official timekeeper. Oh those lovely distractions! Bonita, my third wife, I believe, though common law, was quite a distraction herself, bada bing. Yet we know "Mi Casa es Su Casa" was recorded that day, Paul McCartney on bongos. So we have some hard evidence. I was there at the time, I believe, though possibly only in spirit. The mind wanders.

She had a distracting bada bing for sure.

[Lee Marshall]

But seriously.

Looking at Smiley Smile, Brian pretty much de-VDP-History-Lessoned Smile and f***ed with the formula far beyond what he was doing in SMiLE.

Yup.  Smile...you know...the album we weren't ready for???...was the next logical musical progression for Brian and the group.  It made sense...the path was all there.  I'm still not ready for Smiley Smile...even as we close in on 2015.  But you had to BE THERE at that exact time to GET that...to realize the void that was cratered into the proceedings.

So...yes...as I indicated...the early material forms the foundation and the scaffolding which brought us to Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations and Smile.  [Capitol brought us to Party]

The real questions are....What if Mike hadn't pestered Brian?  What if Brian had not been suffering from a condition which plagued him for WAY too long? And...What if Smile had been released in a timely fashion?

History would have changed.  The Beach Boys would have been considered differently. ..then and now. There would have been NO Smiley Smile...or Wild Honey...or 20/20.  The whole body of work would have been totally and completely different.

No...the early material wasn't better.  But it was necessary...and should have been more-so.  It was a  L O N G  wait from Pet Sounds and Good Vibes and Heroes and Mike....to BWPS.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

But seriously.

(tumbleweed)

We can argue about our ideas of "heart" etc., but to my mind it was with SMiLE just as Brian (and others) said back in the day: he had a problem mostly with the lyrics.

Which, of course, was a statement about as true and honest as "the tapes were destroyed," and the number one reason Smile didn't come out was because "Mike didn't like it." Brian has made a lot of statements about why Smile didn't work for him and when paired up with the historical and documentary record, we find that almost none of those statements hold up. It's not surprising why you seem to think this reason is legitimate but when you consider that Brian included three songs on Smiley Smile with Van Dyke Parks lyrics and continued to make attempts at songs like Surf's Up even into the Wild Honey sessions, we can see that this so called "problem with the lyrics" was just a lot of smoke being blown.

[Lee Marshall]

we can see that this so called "problem with the lyrics" was just a lot of smoke being blown.

No...I believe we have all heard Mike plunder those lyrics he didn't like loudly and clearly.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

we can see that this so called "problem with the lyrics" was just a lot of smoke being blown.

No...I believe we have all heard Mike plunder those lyrics he didn't like loudly and clearly.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[Cam Mott]

But seriously.

(tumbleweed)

We can argue about our ideas of "heart" etc., but to my mind it was with SMiLE just as Brian (and others) said back in the day: he had a problem mostly with the lyrics.

Which, of course, was a statement about as true and honest as "the tapes were destroyed," and the number one reason Smile didn't come out was because "Mike didn't like it." Brian has made a lot of statements about why Smile didn't work for him and when paired up with the historical and documentary record, we find that almost none of those statements hold up. It's not surprising why you seem to think this reason is legitimate but when you consider that Brian included three songs on Smiley Smile with Van Dyke Parks lyrics and continued to make attempts at songs like Surf's Up even into the Wild Honey sessions, we can see that this so called "problem with the lyrics" was just a lot of smoke being blown.

Is "burned the tapes" a claim by Brian? The other statement is four decades after the fact and could even still be true and not change a thing about Brian's feelings about the lyrics.

Brian's complaints/explanations about the lyrics are from his own mouth and within a year of the event but that's not all, there is what he actually did in SS. Dehistoryed it pretty much except for a shade in H&V.

Some of VDP's history lyrics survived in H&V but reportedly he toyed with replacing the single with the non-history Vt. Wonderful, VDP didn't get credited on the SS album, weren't "history" lyrics. SGB is disclaimed by VDP as being his lyrics but isn't history lyrics anyway. Leaving SU out of SS and not releasing it himself is still a dehistorying.

[Hank Briarstem]

Who am I? One might suggest quite understandably that I am a relic of another generation – a robot lost in space, mourning Will Robinson’s passage to adulthood, an anachronism, as it were, a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in a tofu world. Still I dream of it.

Rarely does it turn out well when we attempt to become something we are not. I should know, given the failed experiment with judo. How these bones curse the error!

We could see a young Brian Wilson, surrounded by the Serious and Hip, being pulled in that direction, though he is at heart not at all Serious and Hip. Into this picture blunders the glib and worldly Van Dyke Parks, a man named for a facial hairstyle. Van Dyke is charismatic, his lyrics compelling. His word play and intelligence must be seductive to an awkward young man attempting to fit in with the pseudo-sophisticates and artistes so far removed from Hawthorne High School.

And the result truly suggests something akin to high art! Music and lyrics sprung from Picasso, merged somehow with Grant Wood (And how did he convince Mike Love to pose with that pitchfork?).  On some level, though, young Brian must miss the little girl he once knew and his Foster Freeze and his little surfer girl. Perhaps he doesn’t miss the pressure to surf or to hitch a ride in Denny’s Stingray.

From Teenage Symphony to God to Stephen Crane – a jolt not unlike the one I felt when lovely Melissa hurled the suitcase at my feet and effectively ended my second marriage. As the heart of Smile becomes, at least in some part, The Grapes of Wrath, and the basis for an emerging End of the Trail motif, young Brian surely must feel as if he has lost some control of his own ambition.

If this were merely a case of vertiginous lyricism, it probably would be a minor factor. But young Brian’s own life has become itself vertiginous – something of a freefall into a world far removed from what he has known and who he is.

Columnated ruins domino.

May I have a glass of water? Or a Sprite? Yes, a Sprite, I think.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Is "burned the tapes" a claim by Brian?

The claim by Brian was what I quoted.

The other statement is four decades after the fact and could even still be true and change a thing about Brian's feelings about the lyrics.

Sure, but the mountain of evidence suggests that the statement is unlikely as the claim that he didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics.

Brian's complaints/explanations about the lyrics are from his own mouth and within a year of the event but that's not all, there is what he actually did in SS. Dehistoryed it pretty much except for a shade in H&V.

Within a year of the event, Brian recorded Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, Wonderful, and Surf's Up. Did Brian specifically say that he didn't like the history references in Van Dyke's lyrics? Please provide the quotation.

Some of VDP's history lyrics survived in H&V but reportedly he toyed with replacing the single with the non-history Vt.

Show me the evidence to suggest that he was "toying with replacing" H&V with Vegetables because Vegetables wasn't historical? And explain how this is entirely relevant when, despite it all, the lead single from SS was Heroes and Villains, regardless of what was being toyed with.

Wonderful, VDP didn't get credited on the SS album, weren't "history" lyrics. SGB is disclaimed by VDP as being his lyrics but isn't history lyrics anyway. Leaving SU out of SS and not releasing it himself is still a dehistorying.

Very little of what Van Dyke wrote for Smile had anything to do with history. Do You Like Worms is the biggest example, and Cabin Essence has some references to it but is mostly not about history. Surf's Up is certainly not about any specific historical moment, though one can do a historical reading of it. Some of the Smile-era tracks/sections that Brian did not use for SS are: Our Prayer, I'm in Great Shape, Barnyard, My Only Sunshine and these have little or nothing to do with history. Again, what specifically did Brian say about the historical nature of Van Dyke Parks lyrics that were so problematic?

[Paul J B]

The early "great stuff", not all of it, was just as good as the Smile stuff but in a different way. I  Get Around, Please Let Me Wonder, California Girls.....Those songs made Brian and the Beach Boys. Smile was Brian's creative peak and he crashed after that. The Beach Boys took a few years to come into their own post Smile, but they did. However the minimal role Brian played after Smile going down the drain stands out like a sore thumb to me. I don't think the late 60's ,  Brian no longer running the whole show match the pre Smile stuff.

Cam, I think Brian and VDP had issues and not just with the lyrics. An opinion that has grown on me over these last couple of years.

[Michael Edward Osbourne]

I relate more to the 65-72 period of the Beach Boys. So for me, no I do not think the early material is better than Smile (1966 is my favorite period of BB music). However I love the early material too. The early material is my second-favorite era of the Beach Boys, and I suppose the Brian-Is-Back 70s is my third favorite.

[Cam Mott]

Is "burned the tapes" a claim by Brian?

The claim by Brian was what I quoted.

The other statement is four decades after the fact and could even still be true and change a thing about Brian's feelings about the lyrics.

Sure, but the mountain of evidence suggests that the statement is unlikely as the claim that he didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics.

Brian's complaints/explanations about the lyrics are from his own mouth and within a year of the event but that's not all, there is what he actually did in SS. Dehistoryed it pretty much except for a shade in H&V.

Within a year of the event, Brian recorded Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, Wonderful, and Surf's Up. Did Brian specifically say that he didn't like the history references in Van Dyke's lyrics? Please provide the quotation.

Some of VDP's history lyrics survived in H&V but reportedly he toyed with replacing the single with the non-history Vt.

Show me the evidence to suggest that he was "toying with replacing" H&V with Vegetables because Vegetables wasn't historical? And explain how this is entirely relevant when, despite it all, the lead single from SS was Heroes and Villains, regardless of what was being toyed with.

Wonderful, VDP didn't get credited on the SS album, weren't "history" lyrics. SGB is disclaimed by VDP as being his lyrics but isn't history lyrics anyway. Leaving SU out of SS and not releasing it himself is still a dehistorying.

Very little of what Van Dyke wrote for Smile had anything to do with history. Do You Like Worms is the biggest example, and Cabin Essence has some references to it but is mostly not about history. Surf's Up is certainly not about any specific historical moment, though one can do a historical reading of it. Some of the Smile-era tracks/sections that Brian did not use for SS are: Our Prayer, I'm in Great Shape, Barnyard, My Only Sunshine and these have little or nothing to do with history. Again, what specifically did Brian say about the historical nature of Van Dyke Parks lyrics that were so problematic?

I'm aware Anderle claimed tapes were destroyed, I'm not remembering Brian saying it. My not remembering is more and more common.

Brian at the time said the lyrics were "too arty" and that is why he junked some of the songs written with VDP from Smiley. It is my observation that some the songs that he junked were the ones with lyrics by VDP and those have a historical theme. He also junked some covers which also had a historical theme. It's not a crime that Brian found some the lyrics not to his purpose.

It was reported in the press of the time that Brian was considering replacing the H&V single with a Vt single. Mike at the time said he thought it was a put-on by Brian. Either way some of the VDP lyrics got cut from H&V including the cantina bit.

[Gerry]

We're talking about art here. There is no better, simply what you prefer.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm aware Anderle claimed tapes were destroyed, I'm not remembering Brian saying it. My not remembering is more and more common.

He says it at around the 2-minute mark here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7PjuaM4mR8

Brian at the time said the lyrics were "too arty" and that is why he junked some of the songs written with VDP from Smiley.

Can you please direct me to the source of this claim? The only person who has consistently referenced this quotation on this site is you and you have done it many, many times. Where is it from and what is the context? This is especially crucial in light of the fact that, in my opinion, you have in the past mischaracterized a Derek Taylor quote to conclude that Brian felt Smile to be old-fashioned.

It is my observation that some the songs that he junked were the ones with lyrics by VDP and those have a historical theme.

Some of the songs he junked had a historical theme such as Do You Like Worms and parts of Cabin Essence. Some of the lyrics he junked didn't have any direct historical references whatsoever: Surf's Up, I'm in Great Shape, Barnyard. One of the songs he retained had a sort of historical theme: Heroes and Villains. Of the 8 titled songs credited to Wilson/Parks on The Smile Sessions, Brian kept 3 to work with on Smiley Smile, one of which had historical references. Of the 5 he kept off, 2 had historical references, and 3 did not. Furthermore, Brian chose not to include versions of songs on Smiley that had neither any Van Dyke Parks lyrics or any historical references: Our Prayer, My Only Sunshine, Look, Holidays, etc.

The record really does not reaffirm your claims. Furthermore, if Brian wanted to go with the spiritual and the religious over Parks's supposed artiness, why did he include Heroes and Villains and Wonderful over the ethereal Our Prayer?

He also junked some covers which also had a historical theme.

Such as?

It's not a crime that Brian found some the lyrics not to his purpose.

It wouldn't be if it were true.

It was reported in the press of the time that Brian was considering replacing the H&V single with a Vt single.

Because of the historical references in Heroes and Villains? Because of the artiness of the lyrics? Do you have a source to confirm this or am I to assume that the is pure conjecture?

Either way some of the VDP lyrics got cut from H&V including the cantina bit.

Do we know the cantina section was cut because Brian had a problem with the lyrics?

[Cam Mott]

I've got to go make merry, so I'll get back to you but the quote is from Brian speaking on the KHJ History of Rock and Roll.

[Hank Briarstem]

Forgive me, please, if Van Dyke Parks’ rather startling comments in the 9 May 2013 Guardian – a newspaper published, I believe, either in the United Kingdom or in Schenectady – have left me a bit skeptical of the notion that he and young Brian Wilson were happy writing partners.

"It's a dull issue. I hope it doesn't need any further elaboration. To have been victimized by Brian Wilson's buffoonery. It just got too much for me. It was an expensive decision for me not to continue my association with the most powerful artist in the music business at the time, but I made the only decision I could. I walked away from that funhouse."

While it certainly could be true that the glib Mr. Parks was put off most by the attitudes of Michael Love, and perhaps the failure of young Brian to come adequately to his writing partner’s defense, a nearly 5-decades-old grudge that would prompt the Oxford Orator to refer to Brian as a buffoon is sufficiently intense to suggest a deeper layer of rejection and indeed humiliation.

My first wife Eileen’s brother – the knife thrower – came within a hair’s breadth of robbing me of my right earlobe, and yet – until the unfortunate incident with the camel – we continued to exchange holiday greetings, though always at a distance greater than the strength of his throwing arm. Were Fredrick not incarcerated I would still extend the annual fruitcake.

Beyond that, how could Mr. Parks’ decision have been “expensive” except at the loss of lucrative songwriting royalties?

I do not extend these comments as “proof” that young Brian was less than enthusiastic about Mr. Parks’ lyrics – indeed my attempt to prove that my fifth wife was undeserving of alimony fell victim to a clever legal gambit and to the fact that it was ultimately without even scant merit. But if “state of mind” is suggestive of anything, I would suggest that it isn’t outlandish to conclude that there was some acrimony with regard to the – and I quote here – “buffoon’s” reaction to that which Mr. Parks seems most to cherish – his clever way with words.

Would it be too much to ask for a club soda?

[halblaineisgood]

.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[Been Too Long]

Brian at the time said the lyrics were "too arty" and that is why he junked some of the songs written with VDP from Smiley.

Can you please direct me to the source of this claim? The only person who has consistently referenced this quotation on this site is you and you have done it many, many times. Where is it from and what is the context? This is especially crucial in light of the fact that, in my opinion, you have in the past mischaracterized a Derek Taylor quote to conclude that Brian felt Smile to be old-fashioned.

Well there's this,

Rolling Stone
October 28, 1971

Tom Nolan: "Why didn't that Smile album ever come out?"

Brian Wilson: "Oh, well, that was because . . . the lyrics, Van Dyke Parks had written lyrics that were, it was all Van Dyke Parks and none of the Beach Boys. The lyrics were so poetic and symbolic they were abstract, we couldn't . . “

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Brian at the time said the lyrics were "too arty" and that is why he junked some of the songs written with VDP from Smiley.

Can you please direct me to the source of this claim? The only person who has consistently referenced this quotation on this site is you and you have done it many, many times. Where is it from and what is the context? This is especially crucial in light of the fact that, in my opinion, you have in the past mischaracterized a Derek Taylor quote to conclude that Brian felt Smile to be old-fashioned.

Well there's this,

Rolling Stone
October 28, 1971

Tom Nolan: "Why didn't that Smile album ever come out?"

Brian Wilson: "Oh, well, that was because . . . the lyrics, Van Dyke Parks had written lyrics that were, it was all Van Dyke Parks and none of the Beach Boys. The lyrics were so poetic and symbolic they were abstract, we couldn't . . “

And again, the context is crucial:

"Why didn't that Smile album ever come out?"

"Oh, well, that was because . . . the lyrics, Van Dyke Parks had written lyrics that were, it was all Van Dyke Parks and none of the Beach Boys. The lyrics were so poetic and symbolic they were abstract, we couldn't . . .

"Oh no, wait, it was, no, really, I remember, this is it, this is why, it didn't come out because, I'd bought a lot of hashish. It was a really large purchase, I mean perhaps two thousand dollars' worth. We didn't realize, but the music was getting so influenced by it, the music had a really drugged feeling. I mean we had to lie on the floor with the microphones next to our mouths to do the vocals. We didn't have any energy. I mean you come into a session and see the group lying on the floor of the studio doing the vocals, you know, you can't . . ."

So, yes, he does say that about the lyrics - doesn't necessarily say they were "too arty" - but then goes on to undercut it. I am not inclined to believe the second version he gives either.