is "Surf's Up" about them abandoning surf music?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Among other things, there are some direct references to Edgar Allan Poe - Brian and VDP were both fans.  "The Pit and the Pendulum" obviously, and "columnated ruins domino" refers to the Fall of the House of Usher.  In which, at the end, the mansion collapses, and the columns fall like dominoes.  (See! It all makes sense!)

I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius.

This is ridiculous.

[rab2591]

Seriously. I would buy it in a heartbeat....though I'd definitely need to keep a dictionary on hand in order to understand his abstract vocabulary sure to be peppered heavily throughout.

[cablegeddon]

Keep in mind Van Dyke was *not* and never claimed to be a lyricist or poet when Brian approached him to collaborate on Smile. He wasn't like a Rod McKuen or Leonard Cohen who would build an image around being the traveling bard, the melancholy man of words and verses...he was a studio musician, and didn't he even tell Brian he wasn't a lyricist?

Among other things, there are some direct references to Edgar Allan Poe - Brian and VDP were both fans.  "The Pit and the Pendulum" obviously, and "columnated ruins domino" refers to the Fall of the House of Usher.  In which, at the end, the mansion collapses, and the columns fall like dominoes.  (See! It all makes sense!)

I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius.

funny, I never recall a story where Parks presented himself as such.

Taking another artists entire work and presenting it as your own would be lame. Using 5 words from a poem to help elicit some of the greatest imagery of opulence known to any song is not lame.

Actions speaks louder than words. To embrace all the applause and the legacy and never once reference the inspiration!?!?!? It could have been mentioned in the liner notes that the lyrics took inspiration from old poetry!

[SMiLE Brian]

He didn't steal anything, its called a "literary reference" to build imagery in the song.

[cablegeddon]

He didn't steal anything, its called a "literary reference" to build imagery in the song.

Excuse me the word I used was "rehash".

[SMiLE Brian]

He didn't steal anything, its called a "literary reference" to build imagery in the song.

Excuse me the word I used was "rehash".

Your implying he is a hack and stole the material to look like a "genius"

[cablegeddon]

Nope. Never did.

[rab2591]

Keep in mind Van Dyke was *not* and never claimed to be a lyricist or poet when Brian approached him to collaborate on Smile. He wasn't like a Rod McKuen or Leonard Cohen who would build an image around being the traveling bard, the melancholy man of words and verses...he was a studio musician, and didn't he even tell Brian he wasn't a lyricist?

Among other things, there are some direct references to Edgar Allan Poe - Brian and VDP were both fans.  "The Pit and the Pendulum" obviously, and "columnated ruins domino" refers to the Fall of the House of Usher.  In which, at the end, the mansion collapses, and the columns fall like dominoes.  (See! It all makes sense!)

I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius.

funny, I never recall a story where Parks presented himself as such.

Taking another artists entire work and presenting it as your own would be lame. Using 5 words from a poem to help elicit some of the greatest imagery of opulence known to any song is not lame.

Actions speaks louder than words. To embrace all the applause and the legacy and never once reference the inspiration!?!?!? It could have been mentioned in the liner notes that the lyrics took inspiration from old poetry!

Van Dyke Parks has noted on several occasions that he was heavy in reading the classics, especially American classics at the time...and thus it inspired him in writing an American gothic trip. And considering that VDPs hasn't written liner notes for any release of Smile, it's odd you'd be irritated at HIM for the non-inclusion of this information in said liner notes.

[SMiLE Brian]

Nope. Never did.

'
In your own words: "I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius."

[cablegeddon]

Keep in mind Van Dyke was *not* and never claimed to be a lyricist or poet when Brian approached him to collaborate on Smile. He wasn't like a Rod McKuen or Leonard Cohen who would build an image around being the traveling bard, the melancholy man of words and verses...he was a studio musician, and didn't he even tell Brian he wasn't a lyricist?

Among other things, there are some direct references to Edgar Allan Poe - Brian and VDP were both fans.  "The Pit and the Pendulum" obviously, and "columnated ruins domino" refers to the Fall of the House of Usher.  In which, at the end, the mansion collapses, and the columns fall like dominoes.  (See! It all makes sense!)

I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius.

funny, I never recall a story where Parks presented himself as such.

Taking another artists entire work and presenting it as your own would be lame. Using 5 words from a poem to help elicit some of the greatest imagery of opulence known to any song is not lame.

Actions speaks louder than words. To embrace all the applause and the legacy and never once reference the inspiration!?!?!? It could have been mentioned in the liner notes that the lyrics took inspiration from old poetry!

Van Dyke Parks has noted on several occasions that he was heavy in reading the classics, especially American classics at the time...and thus it inspired him in writing an American gothic trip. And considering that VDPs hasn't written liner notes for any release of Smile, it's odd you'd be irritated at HIM for the non-inclusion of this information in said liner notes.

Given the multiple releases, the countless interviews, requests to write liner notes etc he never once mentioned the direct inspiration?

Nope. Never did.

'
In your own words: "I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius."

Exactly.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Given the multiple releases, the countless interviews, requests to write liner notes etc he never once mentioned the direct inspiration?

If you don't know what The Pit and the Pendulum is or, for that matter Child is father of the man then that's on you. Art is and always has been a collaborative process wherein you are collaborating with everything that came before you and everything that will come after. The great artists recognize that.

[hypehat]

Nope. Never did.

'
In your own words: "I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius."

Exactly.

Again, where has Van Dyke Parks presented himself as an wholly original genius?

[SMiLE Brian]

Keep in mind Van Dyke was *not* and never claimed to be a lyricist or poet when Brian approached him to collaborate on Smile. He wasn't like a Rod McKuen or Leonard Cohen who would build an image around being the traveling bard, the melancholy man of words and verses...he was a studio musician, and didn't he even tell Brian he wasn't a lyricist?

Among other things, there are some direct references to Edgar Allan Poe - Brian and VDP were both fans.  "The Pit and the Pendulum" obviously, and "columnated ruins domino" refers to the Fall of the House of Usher.  In which, at the end, the mansion collapses, and the columns fall like dominoes.  (See! It all makes sense!)

I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius.

funny, I never recall a story where Parks presented himself as such.

Taking another artists entire work and presenting it as your own would be lame. Using 5 words from a poem to help elicit some of the greatest imagery of opulence known to any song is not lame.

Actions speaks louder than words. To embrace all the applause and the legacy and never once reference the inspiration!?!?!? It could have been mentioned in the liner notes that the lyrics took inspiration from old poetry!

Van Dyke Parks has noted on several occasions that he was heavy in reading the classics, especially American classics at the time...and thus it inspired him in writing an American gothic trip. And considering that VDPs hasn't written liner notes for any release of Smile, it's odd you'd be irritated at HIM for the non-inclusion of this information in said liner notes.

Given the multiple releases, the countless interviews, requests to write liner notes etc he never once mentioned the direct inspiration?

Nope. Never did.

'
In your own words: "I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius."

Exactly.

Your quote reads like you don't like Van dyke for borrowing poetry and his persona is phony. I guess you don't like Bob Dylan or any other great artist who references the past of great literature and philosophy concepts either.

[cablegeddon]

Given the multiple releases, the countless interviews, requests to write liner notes etc he never once mentioned the direct inspiration?

If you don't know what The Pit and the Pendulum is or, for that matter Child is father of the man then that's on you. Art is and always has been a collaborative process wherein you are collaborating with everything that came before you and everything that will come after. The great artists recognize that.

No that's on him. That is his legacy, his life.

Nope. Never did.

'
In your own words: "I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius."

Exactly.

Again, where has Van Dyke Parks presented himself as an wholly original genius?

Again actions speaks louder than words.

[SMiLE Brian]

Given the multiple releases, the countless interviews, requests to write liner notes etc he never once mentioned the direct inspiration?

If you don't know what The Pit and the Pendulum is or, for that matter Child is father of the man then that's on you. Art is and always has been a collaborative process wherein you are collaborating with everything that came before you and everything that will come after. The great artists recognize that.

No that's on him. That is his legacy, his life.

Nope. Never did.

'
In your own words: "I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius."

Exactly.

Again, where has Van Dyke Parks presented himself as an wholly original genius?

Again actions speaks louder than words.

Van Dyke in his own words...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6JwCmTIEw

[hypehat]

Actions like WHAT? Leaving the project, recording his own record, then retiring behind a desk at Warner Bros. for the rest of the decade? SHEER ARROGANCE, I TELL YOU

[rab2591]

Keep in mind Van Dyke was *not* and never claimed to be a lyricist or poet when Brian approached him to collaborate on Smile. He wasn't like a Rod McKuen or Leonard Cohen who would build an image around being the traveling bard, the melancholy man of words and verses...he was a studio musician, and didn't he even tell Brian he wasn't a lyricist?

Among other things, there are some direct references to Edgar Allan Poe - Brian and VDP were both fans.  "The Pit and the Pendulum" obviously, and "columnated ruins domino" refers to the Fall of the House of Usher.  In which, at the end, the mansion collapses, and the columns fall like dominoes.  (See! It all makes sense!)

I don't like that. It's lame to rehash old poetry and go out there and present yourself as a some original genius.

funny, I never recall a story where Parks presented himself as such.

Taking another artists entire work and presenting it as your own would be lame. Using 5 words from a poem to help elicit some of the greatest imagery of opulence known to any song is not lame.

Actions speaks louder than words. To embrace all the applause and the legacy and never once reference the inspiration!?!?!? It could have been mentioned in the liner notes that the lyrics took inspiration from old poetry!

Van Dyke Parks has noted on several occasions that he was heavy in reading the classics, especially American classics at the time...and thus it inspired him in writing an American gothic trip. And considering that VDPs hasn't written liner notes for any release of Smile, it's odd you'd be irritated at HIM for the non-inclusion of this information in said liner notes.

Given the multiple releases, the countless interviews, requests to write liner notes etc he never once mentioned the direct inspiration?

Again, in several interviews, he has talked about his inspirations. He has mentioned Wordsworth being a direct inspiration for CIFOTM. He has mentioned Mark Twain being an inspiration. It's ridiculous to think that he would list out every song, book, movie, poem that inspired his lyrics for SMiLE.

Besides, I wouldn't doubt it if VDPs feels that the "Pit and the pendulum" line is such an obvious nod to Poe it needs no further explanation or credit.

[The Heartical Don]

Keep in mind Van Dyke was *not* and never claimed to be a lyricist or poet when Brian approached him to collaborate on Smile. He wasn't like a Rod McKuen or Leonard Cohen who would build an image around being the traveling bard, the melancholy man of words and verses...he was a studio musician, and didn't he even tell Brian he wasn't a lyricist?

This turn in discussion came at a great time, I was just reading a new interview with John McLaughlin where he remembered getting called to play with Miles Davis on "In A Silent Way". Miles gave him sheet music which was Joe Zawinul's piano part, naturally scored for piano. He asked McLaughlin to play that part, McLaughlin was sweating it out and told him it's a piano part, suggesting he wasn't able to do it. Miles then told him to play the part like he didn't know how to play the guitar. That was a genius move: And what McLaughlin did was what Miles wanted all along, a total shift in the approach to the music, a revision of what a jazz guitar part should be and how it would normally be approached.

Brian, I think, wanted the same thing with Van Dyke: He was not a lyricist by trade or by reputation or claims to be skilled in the field, as some other BW collaborators had been. Therefore his outlook and methods would be new and fresh, along with the music. And it worked. But I don't think you'll find any reference to Van Dyke claiming to be a poet or a McKuen-styled man of words, rather he is most often very humble about working with Brian on Smile.

Van Dyke should write an autobiography, it would be one hell of a read with his unique personality and wide work in the music industry.

Yes. I find his interviews always a delicious treat, and he never repeats himself. He makes new jokes at the drop of a hat. Great man.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Given the multiple releases, the countless interviews, requests to write liner notes etc he never once mentioned the direct inspiration?

If you don't know what The Pit and the Pendulum is or, for that matter Child is father of the man then that's on you. Art is and always has been a collaborative process wherein you are collaborating with everything that came before you and everything that will come after. The great artists recognize that.

No that's on him. That is his legacy, his life.

What's on him? He understands the reference. You didn't.

[cablegeddon]

Go on. Sugarcoat the fact that VDP rehashed classic poetry and never bothered to make it clear that he was influenced by classic poets.

Somehow I'm the bad guy? I never took credit for someone elses work or original thoughts.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Something to ponder: Brian's favorite author in his teen years was Edgar Allan Poe.

[rab2591]

Go on. Sugarcoat the fact that VDP rehashed classic poetry and never bothered to make it clear that he was influenced by classic poets.

Somehow I'm the bad guy? I never took credit for someone elses work or original thoughts.

Are you even reading these posts? First off, Hypehat made it very clear that The Pit and the Pendulum is a STORY (correcting both you and I) not a poem. Secondly, I mentioned a POET that VDPs is quoted in saying was a direct inspiration to his work on Smile.

Again I'll say: I wouldn't doubt it if VDPs feels that the "Pit and the pendulum" line is such an obvious nod to Poe it needs no further explanation or credit.

[The Heartical Don]

Something to ponder: Brian's favorite author in his teen years was Edgar Allan Poe.

Interesting. Poe was a man with many psychological problems, really neurotic. It shines true in his work. Perhaps young Brian (un)consciously recognised that here was a writer whom he shared some issues with? Both tried to control their mood swings (and depression later in life) with alcohol and substances (of Poe's habits, the details aren't very clear I must add). But feelings of fear, guilt and doubt are present in many of stories, including the premonition that things will end very badly for the protagonist. That is called 'catastrophic thinking' in psychiatry - a trait that features prominently in anxiety disorders, notably obsessive-compulsive disorder.

BTW: every poet borrows from other writers. As such, there isn't absolute originality, in no art form whatsoever. That is why VDP probably did not find it necessary at all to make statements about such matters.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Go on. Sugarcoat the fact that VDP rehashed classic poetry and never bothered to make it clear that he was influenced by classic poets.

Somehow I'm the bad guy? I never took credit for someone elses work or original thoughts.

I'm starting to think you're joking. It's kind of like criticizing a painter for not letting his audience know where he bought the paint. The artist is under absolutely no obligation to make that clear just as, say, Van Gogh was under no obligation to make it clear when his paintings were largely the same as Japanese works, just as Duchamp was under no obligation to make it clear that he was using the Mona Lisa, just as Bob Dylan was under no obligation to make clear when he took dozens upon dozens of melodies and lyrics from old folk/blues songs, and so on. This is what art is - if you can't understand that elementary principle then you shouldn't watch, listen, or read anything again and focus instead on scientific journals. Even in those cases though, they are indebted to and rely on unsourced principles.

[Amazing Larry]

Sure smells like troll in here...