The rolling Smile discussion thread ...

[buddhahat]

Post your theories and musings here!

I'll go first:

What is the Indians section referred to in Bridge to Indians?

The notes ascend up in 9 steps, then slip back a step (Sessions disc 2, track 10). I had a flash of inspiration the other day that possibly the Indians are the beaded, cheering ones sang about in the opening lines to Worms and that this bridge to indians was a transitional piece linking Heroes to Worms, thus proving Peter Reum's suites theory!! The transition between the last note of the bridge and opening notes of Worms is pretty good, but I think it's more likely a bridge to a bicycle rider section: The Indians being those in the line "See, see what you've done to the Church of the Amercian Indian".

Any other theories on this?

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

I feel it was recorded after the intention to move the "Bicycle Rider" chorus from Worms to H&V was made, thus it has no relation to "Do You Like Worms".

[buddhahat]

I feel it was recorded after the intention to move the "Bicycle Rider" chorus from Worms to H&V was made, thus it has no relation to "Do You Like Worms".

Right, I didn't look at the sessions dates. So you mean, as he'd presumably junked Worms by that point, it is unlikely it had any relationship with that song? It was a fanciful theory anyway but one I just thought I'd throw out there!

So the Worms Bicyle Rider riff with the Church of the Amercian Indian lyrics are re-recorded for H&V two days after Bridge To Indians, so that section is maybe the strongest contender for 'Indians', right?

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

The "verse edit experiement" track on the box seems to indicate where it could have gone.

[buddhahat]

The "verse edit experiement" track on the box seems to indicate where it could have gone.

Yeah I'd forgotten about that. That's a weird splice the way it cuts off the end of the verse. It's difficult to visualise how he might have made that work.

It doesn't suggest what it was to bridge to though unfortunately. My guess is to a slower section: either the minor key bicycle rider theme or Cantina perhaps.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

I reckoned it would be sandwiched between the verse and chorus. Not that it worked particularly well, but that's what the evidence seems to indicate.

All those other acetate verse things we have end abruptly into some Bicycle Rider piano music before quickly fading out. Clearly a transitional piece was needed. Eventually, the slot for "Bridge to Indians" was replaced with the slower drawn-out harmonies that followed the first verse of the finished 45/"Smiley Smile" version.

"Bridge to Indians" is also "Pickup to third verse" (albeit at a different speed). Maybe 2nd verse didn't need one because it would wind down into the cantina thing rather than a chorus.

[buddhahat]

Eventually, the slot for "Bridge to Indians" was replaced with the slower drawn-out harmonies that followed the first verse of the finished 45/"Smiley Smile" version.

Yeah of course - the dum be do be do waaaaah bit! I never realised this. It comes in at exactly the same point as bridge to indians on the verse edit experiment. It even ascends slowly in a similar way.

[seltaeb1012002]

Post your theories and musings here!

I'll go first:

What is the Indians section referred to in Bridge to Indians?

With the way that it goes into the F major at the end, I was thinking "Indians" could just be another name for DYLW. It works perfectly.

[buddhahat]

Post your theories and musings here!

I'll go first:

What is the Indians section referred to in Bridge to Indians?

With the way that it goes into the F major at the end, I was thinking "Indians" could just be another name for DYLW. It works perfectly.

I agree it's a very natural transition and sounds perfect, but I think Bubba Ho Tep's theories are more plausible here.

[buddhahat]

I have read in a few places that Brian was a huge fan of The Rolling Stones' My Obsession.

Listening to it I'm struck how similar it sounds to Fire and Fall Breaks. The way the organ part in My Obsessions ascends and descends reminds me of Fire, Who Ran The Iron Horse, Fall Breaks. It's really striking. This similarity was pointed out to me by another poster, maybe Bubba Ho Tep, so I can't take credit for it.

Also the way Obsession periodically halts to an extended note reminds me very much of the Dada ryhthm.

http://youtu.be/bKWzH2IAZls

There are some quotes online about Brian's interest in the song. This from a Wall St Journal interview:

Which artists influenced you then?

The Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Phil Spector. Those were my idols. I loved the Stones' "My Obsession," and I still love to listen to Phil Spector's records—you can write that—especially the Ronettes.

And this from Critical Mess blog:

My Obsession - Brian Wilson was present for the recording, stoned as f*** and loose as a goose, but even though there's a heavy handed, Wilson's boogie piano on there, I'm gonna have to give it to Ian Stewart, and lament the lack of a "rock-n-roll-Brian-summit". To this day, however, this is Beach Boy Number One's favourite Stones tune; just recently in Mojo Magazine, he compared it bizarrely to "Good Vibrations" - well, he is a little loopy. It's not without charm though  - more melisma from Keith, turning his ugly voice into a weird impression of a Moroccan street-singer: "My-ey-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi!".[ I would imagine that Paul McCartney's bravura melisma from the fade of Revolver's Harrisong "I Want To Tell You" was the inspiration for THAT, though], that clonky piano and a high up in the mix shaker, plus some uncommonly heavy drums.

Was Brian really at the My Obsession session? I remember reading about him meeting the Stones and getting really heavily stoned to Keith's bemusement, but I had no idea it was this session. On Wikipedia it lists the first Between The Buttons sessions at RCA Studos in LA between 3rd and 11th August 1966. Presumably this was when Brian attended, and is perfect timing for the song to then influence some of Brian's Smile songs.

If anyone has some solid info on the above, it would be much appreciated!

[Cabinessenceking]

I have read in a few places that Brian was a huge fan of The Rolling Stones' My Obsession.

Listening to it I'm struck how similar it sounds to Fire and Fall Breaks. The way the organ part in My Obsessions ascends and descends reminds me of Fire, Who Ran The Iron Horse, Fall Breaks. It's really striking. This similarity was pointed out to me by another poster, maybe Bubba Ho Tep, so I can't take credit for it.

Also the way Obsession periodically halts to an extended note reminds me very much of the Dada ryhthm.

http://youtu.be/bKWzH2IAZls

There are some quotes online about Brian's interest in the song. This from a Wall St Journal interview:

Which artists influenced you then?

Could it be that the gritty guitar sound on My Obsession caused Brian to use more fuzz bass for his Smile songs? I'm thinking the some unused sections for GV and the Bicycle Rider theme

The Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Phil Spector. Those were my idols. I loved the Stones' "My Obsession," and I still love to listen to Phil Spector's records—you can write that—especially the Ronettes.

And this from Critical Mess blog:

My Obsession - Brian Wilson was present for the recording, stoned as f*** and loose as a goose, but even though there's a heavy handed, Wilson's boogie piano on there, I'm gonna have to give it to Ian Stewart, and lament the lack of a "rock-n-roll-Brian-summit". To this day, however, this is Beach Boy Number One's favourite Stones tune; just recently in Mojo Magazine, he compared it bizarrely to "Good Vibrations" - well, he is a little loopy. It's not without charm though  - more melisma from Keith, turning his ugly voice into a weird impression of a Moroccan street-singer: "My-ey-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi!".[ I would imagine that Paul McCartney's bravura melisma from the fade of Revolver's Harrisong "I Want To Tell You" was the inspiration for THAT, though], that clonky piano and a high up in the mix shaker, plus some uncommonly heavy drums.

Was Brian really at the My Obsession session? I remember reading about him meeting the Stones and getting really heavily stoned to Keith's bemusement, but I had no idea it was this session. On Wikipedia it lists the first Between The Buttons sessions at RCA Studos in LA between 3rd and 11th August 1966. Presumably this was when Brian attended, and is perfect timing for the song to then influence some of Brian's Smile songs.

If anyone has some solid info on the above, it would be much appreciated!

[Jaco]

That's when he got obsessed with  Shortenin' Bread

[Bicyclerider]

Yes he was at the My Obsession session and reportedly it "blew his mind" (as many things did back then) - there are references to this out there but I' m not at home to look them up.  He was also present at Phil's River Deep session which was earlier in 66 - as was Mick Jagger.

[buddhahat]

Yes he was at the My Obsession session and reportedly it "blew his mind" (as many things did back then) - there are references to this out there but I' m not at home to look them up.  He was also present at Phil's River Deep session which was earlier in 66 - as was Mick Jagger.

Yeah the similarity between the H&V verse backing track and Save The Last Dance For Me from the River Deep album is quite something. I doubt Phil was thrilled about that one!

I started compiling a spotify playlist of songs that influenced Smile and songs referenced within it.

http://open.spotify.com/user/benkirchner/playlist/4SII3E9M7qZldN7ZSrUNWT

Any suggestions welcome of songs to add or better versions to use.

Here is the tracklist so far with an explanation of why each song is there:

1. Rhapsody In Blue excerpt - This is the best version of the slow section I can find on Spotify. Not sure which version of RIB Brian would have been into at the time though. Maybe Leonard Bernstein's 1959 recording? I've included it as the influence on Brian is well documented, but also because the part 2 section that can be heard on track 21, disc 2 of the sessions is melodically remarkably similar to this piece of music to my ears. I also think Western Theme is strongly influenced by this slow section of RIB.

2. Save The Last Dance For Me - Ike & Tina Turner (H&V verse backing track)

3. How High The Moon - Les Paul. Thanks to Guitarfool for this spot. The ascending aaahs must have been an influence on Bridge To Indians/Pickup To 3rd verse.

4. Old Master Painter - Frank Sinatra

5. You Are My Sunshine - Jimmie Davis. Which version would Brian have been familiar with? This is the most well known, right?

6. Song Of The Nightingale: Presto - Stravinski. Ok so this is just my theory, but that descending glissandro at the end really reminds me of the melting cello part at the end of OMP, and the ending from the Smile Sessions mix of H&V. Would Brian have been listening to Stravinksi at the time?

7. My Obsession - Rolling Stones. Fire/Fall Breaks/Who Ran The Iron Horse/Good Vibrations?! (According to Brian apparently!)

8. 12th St Rag - Pee Wee Hunt. Look.

9. Woody The Woodpecker - Mel Blanc. Surf's Up

10. I Wanna Be Around - Frank Sinatra