AFM sheets for 'Till I Die?

[Pablo.]

I was relistening the Stephen Desper mix of this haunting song... anybody have any data about the sessions?

Who played vibes and bass?

Thanx

[Aegir]

Carol Kaye played vibes and bass.

(probably not)

[EthanJames]

I always thought it was themselves (Beach Boys) playing the instruments before recording the vocal parts, and I really love that opening, I'll never know why the decided to cut it.

[Jukka]

I already asked about this in the insignificant questions -thread... The bass playing is indeed mesmerising. Who is it? Too complicated for Bruce? Too pick-sounding for Brian (you know, with his thumb technique)? Is it Carl? Al? Anyway, what a great line.

[Aegir]

I wonder why Brian played bass with his thumb if he almost solely hired pick-playing session bassists.

[EthanJames]

I already asked about this in the insignificant questions -thread... The bass playing is indeed mesmerising. Who is it? Too complicated for Bruce? Too pick-sounding for Brian (you know, with his thumb technique)? Is it Carl? Al? Anyway, what a great line.

There's something about it on Wikipedia I think, about that mix, to be honest I kind of didn't like the vibes in it, well that's me anyway.

[guitarfool2002]

I wonder why Brian played bass with his thumb if he almost solely hired pick-playing session bassists.

I think among those recording and playing bass in the 60's, it was preferred in certain styles of music to use a pick on the bass so it would cut through the mix better than a thumpier sound when played with fingerstyle (or thumb) technique. You'll notice a lot of LA based bassists in the 60's used a pick more often than fingers, while Motown's bass sound was based (no pun...) on Jamerson and his cohorts playing fingerstyle, which is what most of the players who had converted from upright had used when playing electric. Each choice fit that particular style.

Joe Osborne was one very, very prolific studio bassist whose signature sound was picked Jazz Bass...note the incredible bass sound on Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In, and how a thumpier or thuddier bass tone would have gotten buried in that mix, where Joe's is one of the prominent lead instrumental tracks on that record. Same with any number of Carol Kaye tracks, or McCartney, or whoever else picked their bass.

It was ultimately an aesthetic choice for those calling the shots, and Brian obviously preferred recording that picked bass sound after it became a trademark of his records. I personally prefer playing with a pick, and I laugh at those stuck-up bassist types who think playing electric bass with a pick is blasphemy.    For me, an electric bass with more than 4 strings is blasphemy, but what do I know? 

[Aegir]

When I first started playing bass I tried playing with my thumb to play like Brian... and it was too hard. Then I tried playing with my pointer and middle fingers... and it was too hard. Then I used a pick and everything was super easy! I can play pretty decently with my pointer/middle fingers now but still prefer a pick 90% of the time (depends on the song). Every so often I try to play with my thumb, just for fun, and I just can't do it.

[guitarfool2002]

Or, another angle would be to ask the question would anyone *not* use a picked bass over fingerstyle or thumb bass if they were asked to record a song which "sounds like Brian Wilson"? It's so much of a sonic trademark associated with Brian at this point, even though he himself (as a bass player not by choice or vocation but by necessity...) played with his thumb.

Strangely enough, when I'm not using a pick, I actually prefer playing with my thumb if I need to get that thumpy fingerstyle sound from my bass! I think I got that from watching Brian, too, and I tell anyone who's watching where I got it. I'm more comfortable playing that way, especially over the 2-finger "standard" technique, which I do but not by choice. I get hellish thumb blisters, though.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Somewhere here is a post listing the musicians, taken from a tracking sheet. Use the search function.

[Jukka]

Gee, thanks for the tip! I found this: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7916.0.html. Doesn't say who actually played the bass, but it very likely was Alan or Carl. WHICH?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Gee, thanks for the tip! I found this: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7916.0.html. Doesn't say who actually played the bass, but it very likely was Alan or Carl. WHICH?

There's really no way to know.

I think Daryl Dragon played the vibes.

[Jukka]

Sigh. So many things I desperately want to know. Given the chance, I'd ask Al. And of course he wouldn't remember and, first and foremost, couldn't give a toss about who it was. I know, it's not that important... But it's such a beautiful line, and the fact it probably is played by one of the boys makes it all the more interesting. I want to know who to thank for it!

[bossaroo]

The first part of the Desper mix is just the track stripped down and without vocals. The vibes are lovely and get buried under the guys' voices, but I wish the organ was also included in the first part of the Desper mix.

[Pablo.]

Actually, before starting this topic, I did a search with the wrong keywords... I had forgotten about that topic, I read it when it was posted... Anybody remember the name of the primitive rhythm box used? I know I read it somewhere...

[Aegir]

According to AGD in that thread Jukka just linked to, it's called the Rhythm Ace.

[Jukka]

Rhytm Ace it is, and it's available as a part of Funk Box mobile app. I downloaded it, and it gave my endless Til I Die and Bi Sur 4/4 -cover versions a whole new level of authenticity. Highly recommendable device!

[runnersdialzero]

'tis sad that the kids who made these songs won't be around forever and we'll likely never have much of an idea as to who played what on a lot of their stuff. That's why folks like Carol Kaye are truly fiends.

[DonnyL]

According to AGD in that thread Jukka just linked to, it's called the Rhythm Ace.

It's a Maestro Rhythm King, not the Ace-Tone Rhythm Ace. Also featured on "Farewell My Friend", and probably buried in other tracks as well. "Til I Die" seems to utilize a snare w/ brushes overdub as well. I think the 'organs' on the song may actually be an RMI rock-si-chord sent through a leslie. presumably played by Brian.

[runnersdialzero]

Cool, I wasn't aware it was on "Farewell My Friend". It's also on the early "Big Sur" - what else?

[I. Spaceman]

Fallin' In Love/Lady.

[DonnyL]

Cool, I wasn't aware it was on "Farewell My Friend". It's also on the early "Big Sur" - what else?

I suspect it was used as a guide and tracks were built around it on a lot of songs ... and probably left in the final mix here and there. although "Lady" and "Farewell My Friend" are the only ones where I can hear it without other percussion dubbed along.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

According to AGD in that thread Jukka just linked to, it's called the Rhythm Ace.

It's a Maestro Rhythm King, not the Ace-Tone Rhythm Ace. Also featured on "Farewell My Friend", and probably buried in other tracks as well. "Til I Die" seems to utilize a snare w/ brushes overdub as well. I think the 'organs' on the song may actually be an RMI rock-si-chord sent through a leslie. presumably played by Brian.

On Til' I Die there's both the "roxi" and an organ.  I've heard a tracking session and they both play at the same time, so they can't both be Brian.

Cool, I wasn't aware it was on "Farewell My Friend". It's also on the early "Big Sur" - what else?

I suspect it was used as a guide and tracks were built around it on a lot of songs ... and probably left in the final mix here and there. although "Lady" and "Farewell My Friend" are the only ones where I can hear it without other percussion dubbed along.

The Rhythm King was a guide on H.E.L.P. also. 

[Cabinessenceking]

I wonder why Brian played bass with his thumb if he almost solely hired pick-playing session bassists.

ehm, I belive he hired bass players using picks due to having Lyle on double bass on most recordings. This way he would create more sounds.

[c-man]

Yes, I've got a copy of the AFM contract for this title, but I seriously doubt its accuracy...for one thing, the session date given is July 30th, 1971, but an early mix of the song was played over the air on WPLJ-FM during the Boys' appearance there in February '71!  Other sources give a more believable recording date of August 15, 1970.  Like most of the AFMs for the "Surf's Up" album, two titles are listed per session (the other one here being "Don't Go Near The Water"), and only actual Beach Boys are listed as musicians.  There are other things that lead me to believe this particular group of session sheets were quickly drawn up after-the-fact simply to have something to submit to the union and record company. 

Regarding who played what on the track...according to the Badman book (a notoriously unreliable source in many cases, but in this one instance I'm inclined to believe it) Dennis was away filming "Two Lane Blacktop" during the August '70 sessions (which also saw "H.E.L.P. Is On The Way", "Big Sur", and "Lookin' At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song)" recorded).  Which may explain the use of the Rhythm King and lack of a "real" drummer at these sessions...even though they could have easily brought in someone like Dennis Dragon, or Mike Kowalski, or Earl Palmer, or Hal Blaine...all of whom played drums in the studio for them around this time...but for whatever reason, they didn't.   The drums on "Lookin' At Tomorrow" are so light and simple that I believe one of the Boys - probably Al, Carl, or Brian - played them, while the snare drum on "Til I Die" is an obvious overdub on top of the Rhythm King, entering later in the song...it occupies the same track as the acoustic guitar overdub, so my guess is Brian played the drum while Carl played the guitar.    In Desper's book, he indicates that the bass is a Moog patch, Daryl Dragon plays the vibes, Brian plays the organ, and that he (Desper) added the wind effect via the Moog.