Carl and his solo career

[Ovi]

I was listening to Carl's solo debut album, and even though I don't hate it as much as other people, it's definitely not something essential. The album sounds very much of its time, not in a "snyth and drum machine" kind of way like 'BB85' or 'BW88', but more like a typical 80's mix of light pop-dance songs and lifeless power ballads. But the 80's are no excuse whatsoever, the material is weak and that's that.

But here's a premise. It's 74/75 and Carl gets mad on his band for not wanting to keep the artistic direction 'Holland' started and he goes solo. As a mid-70's album, taking further what songs like 'Feel Flows', 'Long Promised Road' or 'Trader' started, would it have been a good album?

[Lowbacca]

I don't know if Carl would have been able to write an entire LP of great tunes à la "Trader".

[Autotune]

I think Carl's and Brian's solo careers have something in common.

Carl wanted to go solo in order to "rock a bit". But he did not rock. Not that there aren't a few gems in there.

When Brian went solo, he did not record the music the hyper fans dreamed of. He had been cajoled by his group, supposedly, and breaking free would allow him to do the music he wanted. He did. He wrote and recorded beach boy music, with vocals by himself instead of the group.

None of their solo careers havr been entirely justified on musical terms. Of course there's plenty of personal and historical issues that led to those guys going solo. And you can't twist history. And for sure that Carl, and most specially Brian, has produced some GREAT solo music. It's just that those guys are beach boys. And, I think, we're arriving at a full realization of such statement in these days.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Dennis of course is the big exception to the rule here. He felt restrained by the direction the BB's were taking, broke free, and released an album of music that was exactly what the group should have been producing but weren't. He didn't yearn to break free from the group only to then produce an album of safe BB-lite musak - he really f**king went for it!

(Even when his personal demons subsequently overwhelmed him he still stuck to his musical guns: he disowned MIU; love 'em or hate 'em, his two LA contributions were both forward-looking songs; and then of course he refused to be involved with KTSA).

[drbeachboy]

Dennis of course is the big exception to the rule here. He felt restrained by the direction the BB's were taking, broke free, and released an album of music that was exactly what the group should have been producing but weren't. He didn't yearn to break free from the group only to then produce an album of safe BB-lite musak - he really f**king went for it!

(Even when his personal demons subsequently overwhelmed him he still stuck to his musical guns: he disowned MIU; love 'em or hate 'em, his two LA contributions were both forward-looking songs; and then of course he refused to be involved with KTSA).

I agree with you to a point, but if you think The Beach Boys would have had a better following doing Dennis' music, I don't think it would have helped. Remember, the only studio album that sold well was 15 Big Ones. They tried lots of stuff from Sunflower through KTSA and nothing sold well. I really think they went the oldies style route was to capture lightning in a bottle. As we all know, that didn't work either. Had they gone the Dennis route, I seriously doubt that they would have received a record contract to release it. I mean both the Reprise and CBS contracts both had stipulations that Brian write the majority of the music. The record companies were looking for Brian hits, not what Dennis was doing as a solo artist.

[runnersdialzero]

Dennis of course is the big exception to the rule here. He felt restrained by the direction the BB's were taking, broke free, and released an album of music that was exactly what the group should have been producing but weren't. He didn't yearn to break free from the group only to then produce an album of safe BB-lite musak - he really f**king went for it!

I'd say Carl "really fucking went for it" just as Dennis did, it's just that the results weren't nearly as good.

I don't know how into a Beach Boys album that sounds like POB myself or a lot of other people would be. It has its moments, but it's very 70s (I'm not saying that as a compliment at all and only as a criticism a little bit) in a way that the Beach Boys music never really was and didn't really suit them sans a few songs (imo).

[Jonathan Blum]

When Brian went solo, he did not record the music the hyper fans dreamed of. He had been cajoled by his group, supposedly, and breaking free would allow him to do the music he wanted. He did. He wrote and recorded beach boy music, with vocals by himself instead of the group.

...Somehow, I can't really see the actual Beach Boys circa "Stars And Stripes" recording "Cry", "Lay Down Burden", or even "Your Imagination".  Mike's last contribution was "Summer In Paradise", and Carl's headspace was in the much slicker territory of Beckley-Lamm-Wilson.  And by the time we get to the 2010 touring group versus an album of Gershwin covers...  Yeah, I think Brian going solo has been pretty justified in musical terms -- he was going outside what the Beach Boys would consider doing.  Much as I'd like to imagine those tracks with the band's voices on it, I can't imagine them actually doing it.

Just reminds me how staggeringly unlikely it is that a Beach Boys album in 2012 -- an album from a band who hadn't actually done a single genuinely downbeat track since "Baby Blue" thirty-three years ago -- ends with a ten-minute-solid suite of Brian Wilson in melancholy mode.  Hell, the last time they did a ten-minute-solid anything was "Here Comes The Night"...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Aegir]

I agree with you to a point, but if you think The Beach Boys would have had a better following doing Dennis' music, I don't think it would have helped. Remember, the only studio album that sold well was 15 Big Ones.

15 Big Ones sold well because it was the first album released after Endless Summer reinvigorated their popularity. any album would've done pretty well.

[Jason]

I can somewhat get into Carl's solo albums; if you take Hurry Love and Heaven from the self-titled and add them to Youngblood while getting rid of the last two tracks, it's at least a 3.5 out of 5. But the first album's first side is embarrassing. It's SO dated. Like REALLY dated.

We could say Carl deserved better but I do believe these were the albums he wanted to make. Note his contributions after 1983 to the Beach Boys.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I found it extremely frustrating that Brian's solo albums - BW88, Imagination, GIOMH, TLOS, and even WIRWFC - could've easily utilized The Beach Boys' voices (and songs), improving those albums substantially, and giving fans the kind of excitement that we're experiencing now with TWGMTR.

If Brian wanted to do specialty albums like Gershwin, Disney, and even BWPS, he could've done those without the Beach Boys. I don't think the other guys would've been particularly interested anyway. And, Brian showed that he could do the recording in a relatively short period of time, maybe not interfering with a contractual Beach Boys' album.

Oh well, we'll never know....and Youngblood is a good album BTW.

[drbeachboy]

I agree with you to a point, but if you think The Beach Boys would have had a better following doing Dennis' music, I don't think it would have helped. Remember, the only studio album that sold well was 15 Big Ones.

15 Big Ones sold well because it was the first album released after Endless Summer reinvigorated their popularity. any album would've done pretty well.

That's what I said. I used the term "oldies styled route... to capture lightning in a bottle".

[Nicko1234]

I don`t think Carl at any time in his career could have come up with 10 good songs or so to make an album. In 1974/75 he had Angel Come Home which is an ok song and had written a couple of other things I think but doubt he could have produced a whole album.

The BBs should have been doing collaborative albums from the mid-70s onwards which them all contributing songs and involved in the production.

[Sav-Man]

I don't know if Carl would have been able to write an entire LP of great tunes à la "Trader".

Yeah, I agree. I mean, Carl was a wonderful singer and a great guitarist, but he wasn't as prolific of a songwriter (at least not as prolific as Brian and Dennis). The few Carl-written songs that made it onto the BBs albums were great, but the fact that there were so few of them always made me wonder if songwriting perhaps didn't come as easy to Carl as it did to his brothers.

[Lonely Summer]

Well, you'll notice that Carl padded out Youngblood with other people's songs, so no, he wasn't a prolific writer, but he did come up with some gems. I like Carl's albums because they are distinctly different from the BB's stuff. There's very few songs on them I can imagine the group doing. Obviously, they did Heaven in a lot of their 80's shows, and that song would've fit in well on LA ....but it's probably too good for KTSA. Brian's albums generally sound like songs the group would've done in their more artistic periods. It's a shame we never got to hear a version of, for example, Melt Away, with Beach Boy vocals.

[Wirestone]

I found it extremely frustrating that Brian's solo albums - BW88, Imagination, GIOMH, TLOS, and even WIRWFC - could've easily utilized The Beach Boys' voices (and songs), improving those albums substantially, and giving fans the kind of excitement that we're experiencing now with TWGMTR.

In a perfect world, yes. I cannot, however, imagine the real-world Beach Boys agreeing to do vocals on any of those albums. I mean, Mike even today has very specific ideas about what a BB album must have (his lyrics, and fun-sun themes), and including those things was the tradeoff Brian made to get TWGMTR done. But would any of his solo work been improved with Mike's lyrics?

[Nicko1234]

In a perfect world, yes. I cannot, however, imagine the real-world Beach Boys agreeing to do vocals on any of those albums. I mean, Mike even today has very specific ideas about what a BB album must have (his lyrics, and fun-sun themes), and including those things was the tradeoff Brian made to get TWGMTR done. But would any of his solo work been improved with Mike's lyrics?

GIOMH realistically couldn`t have been any worse.

It`s also important to note though that it was Brian who apparently suggested the song title `Spring Vacation` and Brian is responsible for most of the sun/summer references whether happy or sad. He thinks Beach Boys` albums should centre around those themes as much as Mike does.

I would say that BW88 could have been better if it had been a group album (if it had been produced in the right way). One for the Boys would surely have been more impressive and some of the Still Cruisin` songs such as Somewhere Near Japan and Kokomo are superior to guff like Walkin` the Line

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Dennis of course is the big exception to the rule here. He felt restrained by the direction the BB's were taking, broke free, and released an album of music that was exactly what the group should have been producing but weren't. He didn't yearn to break free from the group only to then produce an album of safe BB-lite musak - he really f**king went for it!

(Even when his personal demons subsequently overwhelmed him he still stuck to his musical guns: he disowned MIU; love 'em or hate 'em, his two LA contributions were both forward-looking songs; and then of course he refused to be involved with KTSA).

 Had they gone the Dennis route, I seriously doubt that they would have received a record contract to release it.

Presumably they could've just released it via the same record label that released POB to begin with...? I mean, the album did get released.

[MBE]

I think if pushed Carl could have done something good in late sixties/early seventies. If his work on the Flame is anything to go by it may have been pretty dynamic. His tastes seem to have taken a turn by the late seventies and I think that's the main problem with Carl after Holland. He really seemed to like the kind of music on his solo albums and that's what's wrong with them honestly.

[Autotune]

When Brian went solo, he did not record the music the hyper fans dreamed of. He had been cajoled by his group, supposedly, and breaking free would allow him to do the music he wanted. He did. He wrote and recorded beach boy music, with vocals by himself instead of the group.

...Somehow, I can't really see the actual Beach Boys circa "Stars And Stripes" recording "Cry", "Lay Down Burden", or even "Your Imagination".  Mike's last contribution was "Summer In Paradise", and Carl's headspace was in the much slicker territory of Beckley-Lamm-Wilson.  And by the time we get to the 2010 touring group versus an album of Gershwin covers...  Yeah, I think Brian going solo has been pretty justified in musical terms -- he was going outside what the Beach Boys would consider doing.  Much as I'd like to imagine those tracks with the band's voices on it, I can't imagine them actually doing it.


Just reminds me how staggeringly unlikely it is that a Beach Boys album in 2012 -- an album from a band who hadn't actually done a single genuinely downbeat track since "Baby Blue" thirty-three years ago -- ends with a ten-minute-solid suite of Brian Wilson in melancholy mode.  Hell, the last time they did a ten-minute-solid anything was "Here Comes The Night"...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Gotcha. But those are career-choice issues, not strictly musical matters. Lay Down Burden, Cry, and all the others are not unlike what Brian would submit for the BBs to record, or to Mike to write lyrics for. Certain quarters thought that, released from the BBs Brian would be experimenting like wild. And all he did was write pop songs.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I found it extremely frustrating that Brian's solo albums - BW88, Imagination, GIOMH, TLOS, and even WIRWFC - could've easily utilized The Beach Boys' voices (and songs), improving those albums substantially, and giving fans the kind of excitement that we're experiencing now with TWGMTR.

In a perfect world, yes. I cannot, however, imagine the real-world Beach Boys agreeing to do vocals on any of those albums. I mean, Mike even today has very specific ideas about what a BB album must have (his lyrics, and fun-sun themes), and including those things was the tradeoff Brian made to get TWGMTR done. But would any of his solo work been improved with Mike's lyrics?

If every song on the album was Brian's, yes, that might've been a problem. That's why I included "(and songs)" in my post. That would've left room for Mike's contributions and any other group member who had something to offer; more of a group effort if you will.

There certainly was room for other band members' songs; Brian barely had enough quality material to fill the solo albums, thus the covers and re-hashing of older material.

[drbeachboy]

I found it extremely frustrating that Brian's solo albums - BW88, Imagination, GIOMH, TLOS, and even WIRWFC - could've easily utilized The Beach Boys' voices (and songs), improving those albums substantially, and giving fans the kind of excitement that we're experiencing now with TWGMTR.

In a perfect world, yes. I cannot, however, imagine the real-world Beach Boys agreeing to do vocals on any of those albums. I mean, Mike even today has very specific ideas about what a BB album must have (his lyrics, and fun-sun themes), and including those things was the tradeoff Brian made to get TWGMTR done. But would any of his solo work been improved with Mike's lyrics?

If every song on the album was Brian's, yes, that might've been a problem. That's why I included "(and songs)" in my post. That would've left room for Mike's contributions and any other group member who had something to offer; more of a group effort if you will.

There certainly was room for other band members' songs; Brian barely had enough quality material to fill the solo albums, thus the covers and re-hashing of older material.

Brian had the material, he was holding it back for the Beach Boys. He said so.

[Sav-Man]

I found it extremely frustrating that Brian's solo albums - BW88, Imagination, GIOMH, TLOS, and even WIRWFC - could've easily utilized The Beach Boys' voices (and songs), improving those albums substantially, and giving fans the kind of excitement that we're experiencing now with TWGMTR.

In a perfect world, yes. I cannot, however, imagine the real-world Beach Boys agreeing to do vocals on any of those albums. I mean, Mike even today has very specific ideas about what a BB album must have (his lyrics, and fun-sun themes), and including those things was the tradeoff Brian made to get TWGMTR done. But would any of his solo work been improved with Mike's lyrics?

If every song on the album was Brian's, yes, that might've been a problem. That's why I included "(and songs)" in my post. That would've left room for Mike's contributions and any other group member who had something to offer; more of a group effort if you will.

There certainly was room for other band members' songs; Brian barely had enough quality material to fill the solo albums, thus the covers and re-hashing of older material.

Brian had the material, he was holding it back for the Beach Boys. He said so.

Well, in Jon Stebbins' Beach Boys FAQ, Stebbins writes, in his review for TLOS, that even when Brian is writing and recording solo, he (Stebbins) gets the feeling that it's part of Brian's nature to think in terms of the BBs and not just himself as far as harmony parts. I suspect that part of the reason why Imagination and (especially) GIOMH relied so much on older, unreleased material (from "Sweet Insanity," The Paley Sessions, etc.) was perhaps b/c the few new (or newer) songs that we did get on those albums were the only ones Brian felt comfortable doing by himself (overdubbing his own backgrounds) or w/ his touring band. Further proof of this comes in Joe Thomas now revealing, as he has in several interviews, that a lot of the songs that Brian started on or finished when they worked together in the late 1990s' were things that he (Brian) refused to do solo, b/c "they wouldn't sound good without the BBs," as Thomas states Brian said. For all we know, this could be why Brian has done so many "new versions of old material" albums in his solo career (I Just Wasn't Made For These Times, Live at The Roxy Theatre, Pet Sounds Live, BWPS, What I Really Want For Christmas, Gershwin, Disney ). Perhaps he was hoping to eventually work w/ the BBs again all along (in spite on his claims to the contrary in interviews), and thus wanted to hold off on finishing certain songs that he'd started until the day came (if it ever did come) when he would get to produce, arrange and sing w/ the BBs again. Even if he still doesn't like the problems that come with touring (airplanes, hotels, etc.), I do think Brian is sincere when he states that he loves working w/ the BBs again in the studio and being on stage with them (watching Mike work the crowd, etc), whereas touring and recording solo, Brian had to assume the "host" role, which I just don't think he's comfortable doing. So the new album and tour are wins in all respects, I think. 

[Lonely Summer]

I think if pushed Carl could have done something good in late sixties/early seventies. If his work on the Flame is anything to go by it may have been pretty dynamic. His tastes seem to have taken a turn by the late seventies and I think that's the main problem with Carl after Holland. He really seemed to like the kind of music on his solo albums and that's what's wrong with them honestly.

I like that kind of music - at least when Carl sings it!

[Dunderhead]

I have no idea why it's the case, but I find She's Mine on Youngblood really satisfying...

[MBE]

I think if pushed Carl could have done something good in late sixties/early seventies. If his work on the Flame is anything to go by it may have been pretty dynamic. His tastes seem to have taken a turn by the late seventies and I think that's the main problem with Carl after Holland. He really seemed to like the kind of music on his solo albums and that's what's wrong with them honestly.

I like that kind of music - at least when Carl sings it!

Well Carl's voice never was a problem and if I have to listen to AC 80's I would pick Carl over many others. Still I only really like a few songs from each.