Hey, Mike Love!

[Zach95]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  Mike's comments on BW 88 are, er, attack-able because he criticizes it for lack of "commercial" arrangements.  That's not an informed way to criticize music.  I have nothing against Mike, I'm just pointing out why some people might still find issue with the things he has said over the years. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing. 

Just last week, Brian called Mike a genius, a conceptual genius. Is Brian Wilson ill-advised and uninformed?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  Mike's comments on BW 88 are, er, attack-able because he criticizes it for lack of "commercial" arrangements.  That's not an informed way to criticize music.  I have nothing against Mike, I'm just pointing out why some people might still find issue with the things he has said over the years.  

Just how exactly can you accuse his opinion of being ill-advised and uninformed? All Mike would have to do to arrive at an opinion of Brian's album would be to.......... listen to it.

If he thinks the arrangements are too non-commercial, how is this ill-advised or uninformed? Just because you disagree with his opinion? No! Both your opinions are valid.

[Jason]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  Mike's comments on BW 88 are, er, attack-able because he criticizes it for lack of "commercial" arrangements.  That's not an informed way to criticize music.  I have nothing against Mike, I'm just pointing out why some people might still find issue with the things he has said over the years.  

Just how exactly can you accuse his opinion of being ill-advised and uninformed? All Mike would have to do to arrive at an opinion of Brian's album would be to.......... listen to it.

If he thinks the arrangements are too non-commercial, how is this ill-advised or uninformed? Just because you disagree with his opinion? No! Both your opinions are valid.

We need to start linking to the blueboard, where insanity prevails and objectivity goes out the window.

[hypehat]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing. 

Just last week, Brian called Mike a genius, a conceptual genius. Is Brian Wilson ill-advised and uninformed?

No.

But I tend to distrust people who criticise music based purely on commercial interests anyway (where is Ron these days?), so why shouldn't I extend that to Mike Love? Not all great music is "commercially viable". Would you like examples?


But, Erik H is also correct. It's his opinion. Certainly not law. But I whilst I do not agree with his way of thinking, I defend to the death his right to express it yadda yadda.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Let's also not forget, that interview is 20 years old and Mike is PISSED!

Maybe I'm sympathetic because I've been in his position with regards to credits/$$$ and it's an awful thing to go through.

[Justin]

Great picture! Did he surprise you with a whoopee cushion as well? 

ha!  I heard about those pranks he used to do...sadly no he didn't do it that day.  But I did ask if he would pull out a classic Drebin-delivered "Hector Savage!" for me... It was fantastic

[seltaeb1012002]

Let's also not forget, that interview is 20 years old and Mike is PISSED!

Maybe I'm sympathetic because I've been in his position with regards to credits/$$$ and it's an awful thing to go through.

Makes you wonder why Mike didn't take legal action as soon as the first song came out without his name on it though... I know I'd have a lawyer on that right away.

[Jason]

The fact of the matter is that Michael was willing to work WITH Brian as opposed to against him; Michael just asked for $750,000 and future royalties on the songs he indeed co-wrote. Brian's management felt differently...when your main witness is Brian Wilson...and the rest is history.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Let's also not forget, that interview is 20 years old and Mike is PISSED!

Maybe I'm sympathetic because I've been in his position with regards to credits/$$$ and it's an awful thing to go through.

Makes you wonder why Mike didn't take legal action as soon as the first song came out without his name on it though... I know I'd have a lawyer on that right away.

And what sort have mega-disaster would that have resulted in Beach Boys history-wise? What, with Murray still around!!!!???!!!???

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  

Just last week, Brian called Mike a genius, a conceptual genius. Is Brian Wilson ill-advised and uninformed?

And in 1966, Brian said that Mike was incapable of being creative. Was he ill-advised and uninformed then?

Look, fair is fair. I am already on record in this thread of crediting Mike with playing a major role in creating California. I can't think of a greater compliment. With that in mind though, I think it's nothing short of blindness to pretend as if he wasn't a difficult person to get along with because of his traits that are less than likeable.

Furthermore, I'd say the imbalance of opinion is obvious when one cannot question whether Mike Love is Brian Wilson's greatest fan without having a bunch of people get angry.

[Sound of Free]

Brian's "autobiography" – coming during the conservator fight with Landy – was VERY anti-Mike, but even in that book, Brian gives Mike credit for being the first person to believe in him as a songwriter. Brian was never the most confident guy and he needed someone behind him. Mike was the first one to do it.

I don't have the book anymore, and it's been a long time since I read it, but I believe it went something like this: Mike was trying to get Brian to write, and Brian didn't know if he could write songs good enough to be on the radio. Mike responded, "Brian, the stuff you come up with when you're just fooling around is better than most of the stuff on the radio." (quote my be slightly off, but that was the gist of it).

If Mike had never sung a lead or a great bass part, had never written a lyric and had never fronted a single concert, that conversation alone would make him hugely important.

[seltaeb1012002]

Let's also not forget, that interview is 20 years old and Mike is PISSED!

Maybe I'm sympathetic because I've been in his position with regards to credits/$$$ and it's an awful thing to go through.

Makes you wonder why Mike didn't take legal action as soon as the first song came out without his name on it though... I know I'd have a lawyer on that right away.

And what sort have mega-disaster would that have resulted in Beach Boys history-wise? What, with Murray still around!!!!???!!!???

Very true, could've been real bad for Mike. Hard to imagine what the dynamic was between Brian and Mike in say '65, circa California Girls.. or '67, circa Wild Honey.  I know I couldn't sit there and be creative with someone knowing they jerked me out of songwriting credits time and time again. Mike supposedly let that happen repeatedly for years, imagine that? (I guess you can imagine that as you mentioned in your last post!) Very weird when supposedly Mike was the bully figure towards Brian. Then again I don't know all the facts. Maybe Brian was paying Mike for his songwriting services, and that kept him cool for the time being. Roger Christian and Gary Usher always got their credit, so I'm not sure if we can blame Murry. Not to bring up old stuff that's over and donewith, but damn this seems extremely f'd up. Then again, maybe if Lennon and McCartney didn't have that songwriting agreement early on, we would've seen something similar happen between them.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  

Just last week, Brian called Mike a genius, a conceptual genius. Is Brian Wilson ill-advised and uninformed?

And in 1966, Brian said that Mike was incapable of being creative. Was he ill-advised and uninformed then?

Look, fair is fair. I am already on record in this thread of crediting Mike with playing a major role in creating California. I can't think of a greater compliment. With that in mind though, I think it's nothing short of blindness to pretend as if he wasn't a difficult person to get along with because of his traits that are less than likeable.

Furthermore, I'd say the imbalance of opinion is obvious when one cannot question whether Mike Love is Brian Wilson's greatest fan without having a bunch of people get angry.

We get angry because we love THE BEACH BOYS (not just Brian and Smile) and are happy beyond belief that we're being gifted an awesome final act here in 2012 and we're tired of the same old tired "Mike evil" "Brian a God-like helpless teddy bear" routine floating up through the murk and threatening to wreck the party.

How is it inconceivable that we can understand Mike might have said/done some shitty things yet still appreciate the guy and his contributions? And how is it impossible to conceive that some might consider Mike's vision of The Beach boys as being as valid as Brian's: or more so, the crucial yin to Brian's yang? This being the case, there is no point in going over and over and over this. It's history and it's done, but the Beach Boys are out there kicking ass! Let's get over it.

[Denny's Drums]

Besides writing Big Sur (my favorite being the landlocked version) he also helped Paul McCartney out with some of the memorable lines on Back In The U.S.S.R., some of those lyrics are classic Mike!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Let's also not forget, that interview is 20 years old and Mike is PISSED!

Maybe I'm sympathetic because I've been in his position with regards to credits/$$$ and it's an awful thing to go through.

Makes you wonder why Mike didn't take legal action as soon as the first song came out without his name on it though... I know I'd have a lawyer on that right away.

And what sort have mega-disaster would that have resulted in Beach Boys history-wise? What, with Murray still around!!!!???!!!???

Very true, could've been real bad for Mike. Hard to imagine what the dynamic was between Brian and Mike in say '65, circa California Girls.. or '67, circa Wild Honey.  I know I couldn't sit there and be creative with someone knowing they jerked me out of songwriting credits time and time again. Mike supposedly let that happen repeatedly for years, imagine that? (I guess you can imagine that as you mentioned in your last post!) Very weird when supposedly Mike was the bully figure towards Brian. Then again I don't know all the facts. Maybe Brian was paying Mike for his songwriting services, and that kept him cool for the time being. Roger Christian and Gary Usher always got their credit, so I'm not sure if we can blame Murry. Not to bring up old stuff that's over and donewith, but damn this seems extremely f'd up. Then again, maybe if Lennon and McCartney didn't have that songwriting agreement early on, we would've seen something similar happen between them.

Well, I guess Paul was irked enough to recently reverse the credit order (from Lennon-McCartney to McCartney Lennon) in several cases for some songs, so, this is sensitive stuff with people. I can't imagine it being easy for Mike to figure out the right foot to put forward with the issue. I wouldn't think he'd be too eager to confront Murray/Brian and end up possibly kicked out of the band at the absolute height of their awesomeness. Why get off that bus when you were having so much fun? Why not let it simmer and bring it up at a "better time"? ..... I'm just speculating.

[Sheriff John Stone]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  

Just last week, Brian called Mike a genius, a conceptual genius. Is Brian Wilson ill-advised and uninformed?

And in 1966, Brian said that Mike was incapable of being creative. Was he ill-advised and uninformed then?

Exactly. You got to my point inadvertently without me having to spell it out. Who or what or when are you going to listen to? And how are you going to use it?

There are so many threads going on and so many points trying to be made - using various articles, interviews, and quotes. And, the fact is, you can make any point you want and try to back it up any way you want by the selective use of old - or new - quotes. And, the bottom line is, it gets you nowhere. It is almost impossible to prove anything in the Beach Boys' crazy world, even though we keep trying. So many of these debates (and they are stimulating, enjoyable, and educational - that's why we're here), just boil down to opinion. And, even though we keep trying, you can't prove an opinion wrong. Mike Love is what he is, and everybody can, and will, see him differently. And, they're not right or wrong for their THOUGHTS.

* This post is not directed specifically at you, rockandroll. You just responded to my post the way I had hoped somebody would.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  

Just last week, Brian called Mike a genius, a conceptual genius. Is Brian Wilson ill-advised and uninformed?

And in 1966, Brian said that Mike was incapable of being creative. Was he ill-advised and uninformed then?

Look, fair is fair. I am already on record in this thread of crediting Mike with playing a major role in creating California. I can't think of a greater compliment. With that in mind though, I think it's nothing short of blindness to pretend as if he wasn't a difficult person to get along with because of his traits that are less than likeable.

Furthermore, I'd say the imbalance of opinion is obvious when one cannot question whether Mike Love is Brian Wilson's greatest fan without having a bunch of people get angry.

We get angry because we love THE BEACH BOYS (not just Brian and Smile) and are happy beyond belief that we're being gifted an awesome final act here in 2012 and we're tired of the same old tired "Mike evil" "Brian a God-like helpless teddy bear" routine floating up through the murk and threatening to wreck the party.

How is it inconceivable that we can understand Mike might have said/done some sh*tty things yet still appreciate the guy and his contributions? And how is it impossible to conceive that some might consider Mike's vision of The Beach boys as being as valid as Brian's: or more so, the crucial yin to Brian's yang? This being the case, there is no point in going over and over and over this. It's history and it's done, but the Beach Boys are out there kicking ass! Let's get over it.

Your description of this thread's conversation does not match the thread itself. As far as I can see, it is the OP's "opinion" that has been attacked and those who are on the side of the attackers have taken the position of "Hey, it's just an opinion" which is more than ironic. I understand quite seriously your desire to not go "over and over and over this." The best way, I think, to do that is to let people have their opinions and let them feel free to have them without being called an "idiot" or a Brianista, or whatever slur is being hurled these days in order to utterly shut down what can often be a valid point of view.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Exactly. You got to my point inadvertently without me having to spell it out. Who or what or when are you going to listen to? And how are you going to use it?

There are so many threads going on and so many points trying to be made - using various articles, interviews, and quotes. And, the fact is, you can make any point you want and try to back it up any way you want by the selective use of old - or new - quotes. And, the bottom line is, it gets you nowhere. It is almost impossible to prove anything in the Beach Boys' crazy world, even though we keep trying. So many of these debates (and they are stimulating, enjoyable, and educational - that's why we're here), just boil down to opinion. And, even though we keep trying, you can't prove an opinion wrong. Mike Love is what he is, and everybody can, and will, see him differently. And, they're not right or wrong for their THOUGHTS.

* This post is not directed specifically at you, rockandroll. You just responded to my post the way I had hoped somebody would.

Right, which is why that's not my method, though to be perfectly honest, I think for many reasons it makes more sense to accept Brian's word on any matter (not just his views on Mike) in the 60s than his word on matters presently.

[Cam Mott]

I still say Murry wouldn't profit from leaving anyone out of the credit. Right? Co-author's didn't compete with his publisher's royalties. Right?

Brian would profit from leaving his co-authors off of the authorship but not Murry, so I'm not sure why Murry keeps getting the suspicion. Must have stung that authorship got shared with Brian by non-family but not always family.

If Brian shared publishing with Murry [I seem to remember seeing that alleged] he kind of had a conflict of interest when co-authors were not properly credited and he thereby profited from it.

Too harsh?

[Sheriff John Stone]

Exactly. You got to my point inadvertently without me having to spell it out. Who or what or when are you going to listen to? And how are you going to use it?

There are so many threads going on and so many points trying to be made - using various articles, interviews, and quotes. And, the fact is, you can make any point you want and try to back it up any way you want by the selective use of old - or new - quotes. And, the bottom line is, it gets you nowhere. It is almost impossible to prove anything in the Beach Boys' crazy world, even though we keep trying. So many of these debates (and they are stimulating, enjoyable, and educational - that's why we're here), just boil down to opinion. And, even though we keep trying, you can't prove an opinion wrong. Mike Love is what he is, and everybody can, and will, see him differently. And, they're not right or wrong for their THOUGHTS.

* This post is not directed specifically at you, rockandroll. You just responded to my post the way I had hoped somebody would.

Right, which is why that's not my method, though to be perfectly honest, I think for many reasons it makes more sense to accept Brian's word on any matter (not just his views on Mike) in the 60s than his word on matters presently.

But, again, if I dug deep enough, I could probably find a quote by Brian praising Mike's work. Brian's an easy one to find contradictory quotes, no matter what era.

Like Dennis Wilson said about Brian in a nationally televised 1976 documentary, "He's crazy..." Have fun with that one. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  

Just last week, Brian called Mike a genius, a conceptual genius. Is Brian Wilson ill-advised and uninformed?

And in 1966, Brian said that Mike was incapable of being creative. Was he ill-advised and uninformed then?

Look, fair is fair. I am already on record in this thread of crediting Mike with playing a major role in creating California. I can't think of a greater compliment. With that in mind though, I think it's nothing short of blindness to pretend as if he wasn't a difficult person to get along with because of his traits that are less than likeable.

Furthermore, I'd say the imbalance of opinion is obvious when one cannot question whether Mike Love is Brian Wilson's greatest fan without having a bunch of people get angry.

We get angry because we love THE BEACH BOYS (not just Brian and Smile) and are happy beyond belief that we're being gifted an awesome final act here in 2012 and we're tired of the same old tired "Mike evil" "Brian a God-like helpless teddy bear" routine floating up through the murk and threatening to wreck the party.

How is it inconceivable that we can understand Mike might have said/done some sh*tty things yet still appreciate the guy and his contributions? And how is it impossible to conceive that some might consider Mike's vision of The Beach boys as being as valid as Brian's: or more so, the crucial yin to Brian's yang? This being the case, there is no point in going over and over and over this. It's history and it's done, but the Beach Boys are out there kicking ass! Let's get over it.

Your description of this thread's conversation does not match the thread itself. As far as I can see, it is the OP's "opinion" that has been attacked and those who are on the side of the attackers have taken the position of "Hey, it's just an opinion" which is more than ironic. I understand quite seriously your desire to not go "over and over and over this." The best way, I think, to do that is to let people have their opinions and let them feel free to have them without being called an "idiot" or a Brianista, or whatever slur is being hurled these days in order to utterly shut down what can often be a valid point of view.

Well one opinion stirs another, so the conversation goes on.....

I'm not trying to call anyone an idiot, nor have I. And I don't care if my posts might veer away in some fashion from the whatever the thread is called. I'm hardly guilty of this alone. I think the Sheriff spoke as well about the subject as I ever could and there have been many such reasonable posts that have seemed to bring some resolution, yet this keeps bubbling up. It is annoying, and please try and understand that I mean this when I say there are genuine Mike fans out there and for such creatures: constantly feeling the need to defend him or inflate our own opinions of the guy is extremely tiresome. Part of this is Mike's fault sure, but in a way, the constant Mike bashing/second guessing feels like someone trying to break the family apart....... Odd analogy maybe, but it fits.....

[oldsurferdude]

What's with this Brian-fascism thing with Mike bashers?

I'm sorry, but the guy has the right to his opinion.

I wonder if there's also a bit of Mike envy due to the fact that he seems to be the one guy on earth who doesn't HAVE to praise every damn thing Brian does.

Speaking of: I think we can located many an instance where many on this board have had less than complimentary things to say about one or more of Brian's solo efforts.....

HOW DARE YOU HAVE AN OPINION!!!!!

And then there is Myke's stellar solo outings that have been so influential to music over the years. "Looking Back With Luhv" anyone? Who can forget Country Luhv"? Let's give credit when it's due.! It's a Luhv thing.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And after all that, in drops OSD with a remark that I certainly can't disagree with...... Ugh  

Them Beach Boys are a damn confusing/conflicting bunch!!!!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

But, again, if I dug deep enough, I could probably find a quote by Brian praising Mike's work. Brian's an easy one to find contradictory quotes, no matter what era.

Sure, and in fact, the very quote that I myself am referring to contains Brian praising Mike.

Like Dennis Wilson said about Brian in a nationally televised 1976 documentary, "He's crazy..." Have fun with that one. 

Yes, though I will say too that one can use their evaluative skills in order to find some kind of stability behind the contradictory statements, if that makes any sense. If you take into account, era, conditions under which the statement was made (say an interview vs. an intimate moment caught on tape), and so on, one can probably find a consistency and maybe even a reason for the contradictions. But I agree that simply pulling quotes at random aren't going to help much.