AFM sheets for 'Till I Die?

[guitarfool2002]

I wonder why Brian played bass with his thumb if he almost solely hired pick-playing session bassists.

ehm, I belive he hired bass players using picks due to having Lyle on double bass on most recordings. This way he would create more sounds.

Note that Lyle Ritz is shown playing upright with one of those heavy felt picks in the GV studio film - a key component to what was a mystery in how they were capturing such a present sound on upright, as the notes had such a strong attack it didn't seem to be all from Lyle's fingers...and sure enough, he was picking that upright!

I think Aegir was talking about the bass tracks in general, because there are all the songs and sessions where there was no upright bass. If we're talking about the Pet Sounds-Smile era, then of course he was using upwards of three or four string instruments to double a bass line or create a bass sound and feel, but there are plenty of tracks before and after which feature picked bass, too.

A lot of that came from the Nashville studio scene anyway - the "Tic Tac" bass sound was standard practice before Brian used it.

It was just the way it was done when Brian was making hit records, and he liked the sound and held onto it. Again, the key is that Brian Wilson was not the original bass player in the group, nor do I think he necessarily wanted to play bass, but he did for the live show and the "band" presentation. His main instrument was piano.

[I. Spaceman]

Apropos of nothing really, but just because Lyle Ritz was mentioned, I gotta say that seeing Lyle's actual bass at the Nashville Musicians' Hall Of Fame (sadly closed, and its inventory decimated by the Nashville flooding) was a life highlight.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

In Desper's book, he indicates that the bass is a Moog patch

There's pretty clearly a Fender bass on the track too.

[DonnyL]

According to AGD in that thread Jukka just linked to, it's called the Rhythm Ace.

It's a Maestro Rhythm King, not the Ace-Tone Rhythm Ace. Also featured on "Farewell My Friend", and probably buried in other tracks as well. "Til I Die" seems to utilize a snare w/ brushes overdub as well. I think the 'organs' on the song may actually be an RMI rock-si-chord sent through a leslie. presumably played by Brian.

On Til' I Die there's both the "roxi" and an organ.  I've heard a tracking session and they both play at the same time, so they can't both be Brian.

Cool, I wasn't aware it was on "Farewell My Friend". It's also on the early "Big Sur" - what else?

I suspect it was used as a guide and tracks were built around it on a lot of songs ... and probably left in the final mix here and there. although "Lady" and "Farewell My Friend" are the only ones where I can hear it without other percussion dubbed along.

The Rhythm King was a guide on H.E.L.P. also. 

ah ok, cool.

[DonnyL]

if anyone is interested in listening, I produced a song recently utilizing several of these original 'beach boys' type instruments & recorders.

The song (recorded for a Jim Henson tribute collection called 'The Henson Stitch') features an RMI Rocksichord, a Maestro Rhythm King (along with snare brushes & flood tom), and a '65 Fender Electric XII ('Sloop John B' guitar) recorded direct. This is an all-analog recording start to finish, and was created on a Scully 280 4-track recorder. It was recorded on Scotch 206 1/2" tape and mixed to mono on an Ampex 440 to Scotch 202 1/4". It was also spliced in two sections as the intros & outros were recorded separately.

here's the link:

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

(mods, feel free to move this to the 'smilers who make music' thread if it is deemed inappropriate ... but I thought it might be relevant to hear in the context of this gear talk)

[Jukka]

^That was a great listen. Great song, of course, but the sound quality is just wonderful. Is it really analog four-track recording? Oh my. You're quite an engineer, I have to admit. Singing reminds me of Adult Child -era Brian, which is meant as the ultimate compliment!

[EgoHanger1966]

if anyone is interested in listening, I produced a song recently utilizing several of these original 'beach boys' type instruments & recorders.

The song (recorded for a Jim Henson tribute collection called 'The Henson Stitch') features an RMI Rocksichord, a Maestro Rhythm King (along with snare brushes & flood tom), and a '65 Fender Electric XII ('Sloop John B' guitar) recorded direct. This is an all-analog recording start to finish, and was created on a Scully 280 4-track recorder. It was recorded on Scotch 206 1/2" tape and mixed to mono on an Ampex 440 to Scotch 202 1/4". It was also spliced in two sections as the intros & outros were recorded separately.

here's the link:

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

(mods, feel free to move this to the 'smilers who make music' thread if it is deemed inappropriate ... but I thought it might be relevant to hear in the context of this gear talk)

That was so cool! You really got the period sound - so hard to achieve. Cheers! 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

if anyone is interested in listening, I produced a song recently utilizing several of these original 'beach boys' type instruments & recorders.

The song (recorded for a Jim Henson tribute collection called 'The Henson Stitch') features an RMI Rocksichord, a Maestro Rhythm King (along with snare brushes & flood tom), and a '65 Fender Electric XII ('Sloop John B' guitar) recorded direct. This is an all-analog recording start to finish, and was created on a Scully 280 4-track recorder. It was recorded on Scotch 206 1/2" tape and mixed to mono on an Ampex 440 to Scotch 202 1/4". It was also spliced in two sections as the intros & outros were recorded separately.

here's the link:

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

(mods, feel free to move this to the 'smilers who make music' thread if it is deemed inappropriate ... but I thought it might be relevant to hear in the context of this gear talk)

Great 12-string sound.  Do you have a recording of just the 12-string, soloed?

[DonnyL]

^That was a great listen. Great song, of course, but the sound quality is just wonderful. Is it really analog four-track recording? Oh my. You're quite an engineer, I have to admit. Singing reminds me of Adult Child -era Brian, which is meant as the ultimate compliment!

thanks for listening. yes, it's a 4-track, but it's half-inch ... so it's a pretty thick kind of sound.

[DonnyL]

if anyone is interested in listening, I produced a song recently utilizing several of these original 'beach boys' type instruments & recorders.

The song (recorded for a Jim Henson tribute collection called 'The Henson Stitch') features an RMI Rocksichord, a Maestro Rhythm King (along with snare brushes & flood tom), and a '65 Fender Electric XII ('Sloop John B' guitar) recorded direct. This is an all-analog recording start to finish, and was created on a Scully 280 4-track recorder. It was recorded on Scotch 206 1/2" tape and mixed to mono on an Ampex 440 to Scotch 202 1/4". It was also spliced in two sections as the intros & outros were recorded separately.

here's the link:

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

(mods, feel free to move this to the 'smilers who make music' thread if it is deemed inappropriate ... but I thought it might be relevant to hear in the context of this gear talk)

Great 12-string sound.  Do you have a recording of just the 12-string, soloed?

I can get one together of the intro, as the 12-string is on it's own track ... but it's on the same track as the Rock-si-chord on the main section though if you want that.  That particular track has some kind of problem on it (bias 'rocks'/modulation I think) which sound kind of weird solo'd, but I can do a dub of that later tonight.  I also mixed it with a tape delay and glockenspiel on the intro. almost everything on there was recorded using the mic preamps that are built into the Scully.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

That's cool.  I just wanted to hear the 12-string in a more isolated setting.  You've come about as close as anybody I've heard to getting a sound close to the 12-string sound on the 64-67 stuff.  It's so distinct, yet it's not some occult magic, and yet, nobody quite nails it.  But you're very, very close.

[DonnyL]

That's cool.  I just wanted to hear the 12-string in a more isolated setting.  You've come about as close as anybody I've heard to getting a sound close to the 12-string sound on the 64-67 stuff.  It's so distinct, yet it's not some occult magic, and yet, nobody quite nails it.  But you're very, very close.

I think the trick is that it's deceptively simple, but the meat and potatoes of it have to be correct (i.e. musician, guitar, preamp, tape machine). The raw sound is quite plain ... to the point that many people would probably think it's too sterile or sounds weird ... but it works in the mix.

I believe the only way to get closer would be an original UA board with the right echo chambers. and of course, the playing itself will never be replicated !

[DonnyL]

That's cool.  I just wanted to hear the 12-string in a more isolated setting.  You've come about as close as anybody I've heard to getting a sound close to the 12-string sound on the 64-67 stuff.  It's so distinct, yet it's not some occult magic, and yet, nobody quite nails it.  But you're very, very close.

i sent you a PM

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Incidentally, I dug out my notes for the tracking session I've heard.

The Rhythm King just keeps pounding away, there are several blown takes.  Brian seems to be playing the "Roxi" and as I mentioned the organ is also live on the basic track.  The Fender bass is on the basic track too, as is Carl strumming acoustic guitar during the "I lost my way, hey hey hey" sections.  I assume that I was able to hear voices associated with the instruments for which I identified the players.  Desper calls out take numbers.  They need at leat 4 or 5 takes, because Carl has trouble with the tuning on the guitar or something.

[Jukka]

OK, so Carl is playing acoustic - that means the bassline is most likely played by Al, or are there non-BB voices present (aseiden from Desper)?

[c-man]

OK, so Carl is playing acoustic - that means the bassline is most likely played by Al, or are there non-BB voices present (aseiden from Desper)?

And since the tracksheet has Carl's guitar on the same track as the snare drum...do you recall the drum being live?  Otherwise, if it was overdubbed (as I suspect), there must've been a bounce-down combining the guitar & drum.
Interesting...if Bri is playing the Roxi, it's most likely Bruce playing the organ...or Daryl...were vibes on the basic?  If not, Daryl coulda played organ on the basic and o/d'd the vibes.

[lance]

Four or five years ago I read a post by Desper in which he said that Brian overdubbed snare on the last part of the song, the rest was a drum machine.

[DonnyL]

if anyone is interested in listening, I produced a song recently utilizing several of these original 'beach boys' type instruments & recorders.

The song (recorded for a Jim Henson tribute collection called 'The Henson Stitch') features an RMI Rocksichord, a Maestro Rhythm King (along with snare brushes & flood tom), and a '65 Fender Electric XII ('Sloop John B' guitar) recorded direct. This is an all-analog recording start to finish, and was created on a Scully 280 4-track recorder. It was recorded on Scotch 206 1/2" tape and mixed to mono on an Ampex 440 to Scotch 202 1/4". It was also spliced in two sections as the intros & outros were recorded separately.

here's the link:

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

Terrific! It's like in a 70s childlike Brian style. Very optimistic & agree with some posters that it has 60s times' sound. What also impressed me are those intriguing key changes. The choice of instruments is another good point. All in all, greatly done! I even downloaded it for inclusion to my collection. Thanks for the link, DonnyL!

thanks to you & all who listened & downloaded ... i honestly didn't expect it, and it's very touching.

[DonnyL]

It's so distinct, yet it's not some occult magic, and yet, nobody quite nails it.

although i must add that i do think maybe there is at least some occult magic to it.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

OK, so Carl is playing acoustic - that means the bassline is most likely played by Al, or are there non-BB voices present (aseiden from Desper)?

And since the tracksheet has Carl's guitar on the same track as the snare drum...do you recall the drum being live?  Otherwise, if it was overdubbed (as I suspect), there must've been a bounce-down combining the guitar & drum.
Interesting...if Bri is playing the Roxi, it's most likely Bruce playing the organ...or Daryl...were vibes on the basic?  If not, Daryl coulda played organ on the basic and o/d'd the vibes.

I dug a little deeper and found more notes.  The following is more or less a transcription of everything I have:

"Desper calls take 1--levels are adjusted, take breaks down.

take 2, rhythm king is just kept going between takes -- long time before they count it.  Roxi not playing.  Guitar problem.

false start take 3

Brian distinctly counts in takes 4 and 5.  The roxi is playing along now.  No vibes, no sign of moog bass as per desper's book but the roxi doubles the fender.
another guitar problem.

take 6 appears to be master because vocals appear over the next take, with overdubs.  vocals are different in general.  different performance in some cases and different mix in others.  Definitely different Brian vox."

....


So no vibes on the basic track, and I think the snare is overdubbed, even though they don't actually get to that part during the bad takes.  I also noted that there is some talking in between takes that I couldn't really make out who was talking, unfortunately.

[runnersdialzero]

<3 <3 <3 ~~~~~

I'm kind of uneasy about how into reading about takes breaking down etc. that I was. It was interesting! Why!?

But still, thanks ^_^

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:

You ask who played the bass and vibs?

The paperwork is a placeholder for billing purposes. I would not count on it as accurate for determining who played what.

It was all recorded at the "house studio."

The vibraphone was played by Daryl Dragon and recorded in stereo as an overdub.

The bass is a Moog patch using several oscillators and an envelope generator.
It was written by Brian and played on the keyboard by myself. If I remember correctly, the bass was re-recorded via the Moog to replace a working bass track played by someone. Does it matter? The final song only uses the Moog bass line. Like most of the Moog bass lines realized by my patching, this one goes down to around 40 Hz with equal balance given to the first and second overtones. This technique of Moog patching structure will give a good musical balance to both the smaller speaker and a full-range system. If you have a sub-woofer in your reproduction system, you will hear very deep fundamental notes in some places of the song.

~swd

[monicker]

if anyone is interested in listening, I produced a song recently utilizing several of these original 'beach boys' type instruments & recorders.

The song (recorded for a Jim Henson tribute collection called 'The Henson Stitch') features an RMI Rocksichord, a Maestro Rhythm King (along with snare brushes & flood tom), and a '65 Fender Electric XII ('Sloop John B' guitar) recorded direct. This is an all-analog recording start to finish, and was created on a Scully 280 4-track recorder. It was recorded on Scotch 206 1/2" tape and mixed to mono on an Ampex 440 to Scotch 202 1/4". It was also spliced in two sections as the intros & outros were recorded separately.

here's the link:

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

(mods, feel free to move this to the 'smilers who make music' thread if it is deemed inappropriate ... but I thought it might be relevant to hear in the context of this gear talk)

That sounds really, really great.