The Smiley Smile Message Board
Welcome,
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Login with username, password and session length
If you like this message board, please help with the hosting costs!
683212
Posts in
27761
Topics by
4096
Members - Latest Member:
MrSunshine
July 23, 2025, 04:42:36 PM
The Smiley Smile Message Board
|
Smiley Smile Stuff
|
General On Topic Discussions
|
"City Blues" songwriting credits, and Brian's current view of Dennis + Carl.
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
« previous
next »
Pages:
[
1
]
2
Author
Topic: "City Blues" songwriting credits, and Brian's current view of Dennis + Carl. (Read 5204 times)
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5761
"City Blues" songwriting credits, and Brian's current view of Dennis + Carl.
«
on:
June 08, 2012, 01:02:03 PM »
Sadly, Brian seems to have had many unfinished/unresolved issues between himself and his brothers at the time of their deaths.
Things weren't exactly going along swimmingly between Brian + Dennis in late 1983 (with the beginnings of Brian’s Landy-induced estrangement as well as Dennis’ downfall), or with Brian + Carl in 1997 around the time Carl got sick (though at least they had time to try and patch things up near the end).
These days in interviews, it seems that Brian will get sad, but generally say only nice/positive things about Carl… but Dennis doesn’t quite seem to be afforded a similar courtesy. It’s a bit heartbreaking to see.
What I've seemed to notice is that in interviews with Brian lately (and even over the last decade or so), when Dennis is brought up, less affection seems to be shown for him, and he gets brushed to the side. Brian doesn’t really seem to want to talk about Dennis at all. (Of course it's his prerogative to do so, and Brian often avoids uncomfortable topics).
When modern-day Brian does say something about Dennis, I think I’ve heard negative things about him like “he was a troublemaker” with perhaps a sprinkle of positivity of his musical talents, saying stuff like “he blew us away with Forever” every now and then.
It could simply be that simply Brian just clearly had a favorite brother (Carl) and less love (and less in common personally) for Dennis - but it seems like there is more to it than just that.
Dennis’ absence of credit on “City Blues” on GIOMH seems to clearly highlight this. Dennis appears to have co-written the song, but his glaring credit omission on the released version seems telling. Could this be due to Dennis being lumped into the people of “bad influence” on Brian (by Brian’s people), and Brian’s people wanting to airbrush away the public’s memory of the early ‘80s creative spark between Brian + Dennis (due to drugs being heavily involved)? If Dennis’ (possibly minor) contributions to “City Blues” would remind the public of this little-known era of collaboration between the two, that may not be considered “desirable” to Brian’s wifeandmanagers. I just can’t imagine that if Carl had a similar hand in collaborating on a song from that era (sans drug involvement) that Carl’s credit would be glaringly omitted like that.
«
Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 02:00:29 PM by CenturyDeprived
»
Logged
Ron
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5086
Re: Brian's current view of Dennis + Carl.
«
Reply #1 on:
June 08, 2012, 01:04:22 PM »
I disagree that there's a different degree of love, I think Brian just feels more comfortable talking about Carl because he died from Cancer, whereas Dennis died from Alcoholism. Kind of. You know what I mean.
Logged
joshferrell
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1634
Re: Brian's current view of Dennis + Carl.
«
Reply #2 on:
June 08, 2012, 01:14:04 PM »
I don't know,I can't read his mind but maybe he thinks that Dennis did a stupid thing by jumping in the water drunk or something like that and he looks at him differently because of it, who knows..just an idea I wanted to throw out there..not saying that is how he thinks or feels but who knows it's possible.
Logged
onkster
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 882
Re: Brian's current view of Dennis + Carl.
«
Reply #3 on:
June 08, 2012, 01:17:36 PM »
Well, there was that interview fairly recently where he said Dennis was a real a-hole, interrupting meetings, causing commotions, etc. I'm sure that's not the whole story for him, but probably a momentary recollection. As many of us have of old relationships--some days we remember the best, others the worst.
I wouldn't read too much into it. If he hadn't cared about Dennis at all, I don't think he would have been so bothered when he heard the news of the drowning.
Logged
Ziggy Stardust
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1107
Re: Brian's current view of Dennis + Carl.
«
Reply #4 on:
June 08, 2012, 01:50:11 PM »
Quote from: joshferrell on June 08, 2012, 01:14:04 PM
I don't know,I can't read his mind but maybe he thinks that Dennis did a stupid thing by jumping in the water drunk or something like that and he looks at him differently because of it, who knows..just an idea I wanted to throw out there..not saying that is how he thinks or feels but who knows it's possible.
Not sure Brian did many clever things when he was on drugs?
nah the guy who did the thread is right about almost everything, Brian clearly showed more love for Carl.. it's sad.
Logged
Jon Stebbins
Honored Guest
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2635
Re: \
«
Reply #5 on:
June 08, 2012, 02:55:17 PM »
In a very recent interview with Howie Edelson of United Stations... Brian says he liked Dennis' solo record, but that he did not like Carl's. So that's something.
Logged
Ron
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5086
Re: \
«
Reply #6 on:
June 08, 2012, 02:56:42 PM »
That must be proof that he loves Dennis more, then.
Logged
Ziggy Stardust
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1107
Re: \
«
Reply #7 on:
June 08, 2012, 02:56:56 PM »
So back then, he knew Dennis had an solo record, somewhere in 2008 he didn't know Dennis had an solo record, and know he's saying he loves it ?
heh, well i agree, Carl's solo album isn't fantastic.
Logged
Sheriff John Stone
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5309
Re: \
«
Reply #8 on:
June 08, 2012, 03:05:06 PM »
I don't think Brian feels a certain way about Carl or Dennis based on the WAY each died.
I am surprised (or, maybe not...) that Brian has rarely, if at all, spoken lengthily about each brother as men or as persons. You know, as fathers, husbands, brothers, even as uniique human beings. He only says like "we miss his voice..." or "he was a great singer....) or whatever. He usually only speaks of them in the context as Beach Boys or musicians.
They were, of course, brothers, and they obviously shared many important moments early in their lives (say from age birth to 25). But, I sometimes wonder how close they were and how much quality time they spent together later in their lives - i.e. birthdays, weddings, holidays, just hanging out, etc.
Logged
Ron
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5086
Re: \
«
Reply #9 on:
June 08, 2012, 03:06:32 PM »
Well when you're doing an interview about your music, and they ask about Carl or Dennis... he gives them a musical answer. If his wife asked him about them, I'll bet there answer would be different.
He doesn't feel a certain way about them because of the way they died, I was saying he reacts to interview situations differently because of that. If they ask about Carl, he can act like Carl was a saint. If they ask about Dennis, he doesn't want to sit there and prove why Dennis was a good man or whatever. So he just doesn't talk about Dennis, and talks glowingly sometimes about Carl.
«
Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 03:07:47 PM by Ron
»
Logged
Jon Stebbins
Honored Guest
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2635
Re: \
«
Reply #10 on:
June 08, 2012, 03:07:15 PM »
Quote from: Ron on June 08, 2012, 02:56:42 PM
That must be proof that he loves Dennis more, then.
Or maybe proof he doesn't love everything about Carl more...he draws the line at solo albums.
Logged
Ron
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5086
Re: \
«
Reply #11 on:
June 08, 2012, 03:08:11 PM »
Quote from: Jon Stebbins on June 08, 2012, 03:07:15 PM
Quote from: Ron on June 08, 2012, 02:56:42 PM
That must be proof that he loves Dennis more, then.
Or maybe proof he doesn't love everything about Carl more...he draws the line at solo albums.
Could be. I'll bet he loves Dennis's drums better than Carl's drums too.
Logged
Amy B.
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1664
Re: \
«
Reply #12 on:
June 08, 2012, 03:15:10 PM »
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on June 08, 2012, 03:05:06 PM
I don't think Brian feels a certain way about Carl or Dennis based on the WAY each died.
I am surprised (or, maybe not...) that Brian has rarely, if at all, spoken lengthily about each brother as men or as persons. You know, as fathers, husbands, brothers, even as uniique human beings. He only says like "we miss his voice..." or "he was a great singer....) or whatever. He usually only speaks of them in the context as Beach Boys or musicians.
They were, of course, brothers, and they obviously shared many important moments early in their lives (say from age birth to 25). But, I sometimes wonder how close they were and how much quality time they spent together later in their lives - i.e. birthdays, weddings, holidays, just hanging out, etc.
Dennis once said that if it hadn't been for the music, he wouldn't be close to his brothers at all...so maybe Brian best related to his brothers through music. When Brian was making music, there was a chance for those relationships. Carl was always there for Brian, musically-- he was much more solid and dependable, and his musical ability was apparent early on. Dennis wasn't always dependable, and at first maybe it seemed his voice/instrumental ability wasn't up to par. Plus, siblings' perceptions of one another are often rooted in the way the related as kids...and it seems like Dennis and Brian didn't have a lot in common as kids.
I'm sure the love for both of them is deep, but it's understandably hard for Brian to talk about them. I can't even picture him saying something nice about Dennis as a person because it just seems like they didn't spend time together outside the music.
Logged
SamMcK
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 586
Re: \
«
Reply #13 on:
June 08, 2012, 03:16:56 PM »
It's shame, Dennis was the second best songwriter in the group IMO but he rarely gets mentioned or any of his songs are performed with the exception of Forever. I suppose I shouldn't expect much since it's been 30 years since he died but I would like to see The Beach Boys at least mention him more or talk about his contributions.
Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 2871
Re: \
«
Reply #14 on:
June 08, 2012, 04:02:45 PM »
It's funny because I always got the feeling that Brian and Dennis were very close to each other and maybe closer than Brian and Carl for a while given that they were closer in age. And you're right the way that Brian casually puts Dennis down in interviews at times is inconsistent with the kind of relationship that they seemed to actually have.
Logged
Sheriff John Stone
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5309
Re: \
«
Reply #15 on:
June 08, 2012, 04:18:11 PM »
Quote from: Ron on June 08, 2012, 03:06:32 PM
Well when you're doing an interview about your music, and they ask about Carl or Dennis... he gives them a musical answer.
Except the part of the interview when Brian is asked about Dennis or Carl ISN'T about the music - Brian makes it that way.
The interviewer will usually be talking about the state of Brian's life and how he's doing and specifically how he cope(s)(ed) with the loss of his brothers. And, instead of answering the question like you think someone would, Brian talks about them in terms of the Beach Boys, like specifically about their voice and, not how he misses them as people, but how The Beach Boys miss them. That's just Brian I guess...
«
Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 04:19:04 PM by Sheriff John Stone
»
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 10296
Re: \
«
Reply #16 on:
June 08, 2012, 04:26:09 PM »
The personal stuff is a clouded issue for sure. But when it comes to asking Brian to talk about how much he likes or doesn't like a certain song or album or artist, even then you probably won't always get the exact same answer twice.
I'd be surprised if Brian today could name or sing much of anything off of Carl's solo albums aside from "Heaven" and maybe one or two others that were singles or the BB's briefly peformed. That's no slight on Brian, I would guess most of the band don't remember it well enough to be familiar with, say, "Too Early To Tell." Heck, I couldn't look at the tracklistings to Carl's solo albums and remember how every single one of them goes.
Reminds of me of the McCartney quote I remember from several years ago that was both startling and refreshingly honest where he was asked about some of his now-largely-forgotten solo output like "Press to Play" and McCartney said something to the effect that he can pick up an album like that and look at the song title and think "I wonder how that one goes?"
«
Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 04:27:20 PM by HeyJude
»
Logged
THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!!
http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion
- Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog -
http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Wirestone
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 6063
Re: \
«
Reply #17 on:
June 08, 2012, 04:46:59 PM »
I would be interested to know how many people here have lost love ones.
Grief doesn't make sense. Loss and death do not make sense. And about the worst possible way to lose someone you love is unexpectedly.
Yes, everyone retrospectively says they expected something like this from Dennis. But they didn't. Not really. Not still in his 30s, and not with young kids. And for Brian, who was at the time emerging from years of severe self-loathing, to have his brother go like that -- the emotions must have been intense, contradictory and difficult.
And people's grief does not, contrary to what people thing, "resolve" over the years. It becomes more manageable, but the essential issues are still there, unless the person grieving makes a concerted effort to address them on his or her own. And Brian does not strike me as that kind of person -- his day-to-day life is complicated and difficult enough.
Logged
Ron
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5086
Re: \
«
Reply #18 on:
June 08, 2012, 04:51:39 PM »
I've lost people I wasn't on good terms with (immediate family members) and while you forgive them after they die, you don't really stop talking about them. You just laugh about all the crap they pulled, instead of being mad about it. Also you don't really love them any less than people you got along with who died. They're kind of all 'gone' and in the same category.
So in my opinion Brian doesn't love either of them more or less, it's just easier to talk about one than the other. And like Wirestone said, everybody's different so maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about as it pertains to them.
Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 2871
Re: \
«
Reply #19 on:
June 08, 2012, 05:57:32 PM »
Quote from: Ron on June 08, 2012, 04:51:39 PM
So in my opinion Brian doesn't love either of them more or less, it's just easier to talk about one than the other.
I think that's true. I wonder why, though. He could just as easily give a very short answer that's the same for both like "I miss him". It's just interesting that he sometimes tacks on something like, "especially Carl."
Logged
startBBtoday
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 693
Re: \
«
Reply #20 on:
June 08, 2012, 06:01:58 PM »
Quote from: rockandroll on June 08, 2012, 05:57:32 PM
Quote from: Ron on June 08, 2012, 04:51:39 PM
So in my opinion Brian doesn't love either of them more or less, it's just easier to talk about one than the other.
I think that's true. I wonder why, though. He could just as easily give a very short answer that's the same for both like "I miss him". It's just interesting that he sometimes tacks on something like, "especially Carl."
Well, he was alive for 15 years longer, so he's obviously more fresh in his mind. I think Dennis might also bring up some bad memories for Brian with drugs and the like.
I also think as much as we all love Dennis, he was probably a bit of a pain in the ass. Carl really helped Brian, especially by taking over the band like he did. If Carl was still around, he may be playing that Foskett role, Dennis wouldn't be.
Logged
JohnMill
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1253
Re: \
«
Reply #21 on:
June 08, 2012, 06:07:48 PM »
I mentioned this awhile back but in regards to Dennis, read the liner notes to the "Hawthorne" disc where Brian reacts to quite frankly a gorgeous unreleased composition by Dennis entitled "A Time To Live In Dreams". He was particularly taken by the verse "In this new day, forgive your brother because life is precious". My feeling on Brian's state of mind regarding his brothers is that it would be similar to anyone else who had both of their kid brothers precede them in death, it has to be pretty hard. I also wonder if and maybe some of this is referenced in "Lay Down Burden" if Brian felt some guilt due to the fact that he was so consumed with his own struggles that he couldn't be there for Dennis as he began his own downward fall. Now don't take this as I'm saddling Brian with any amount of responsibility for Dennis' decisions but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only person whose ever thought that maybe if Brian was in a better place in the seventies and early eighties then perhaps Dennis might still be here as well.
The bottom line: I think the topic of his deceased brothers is understandably a very touchy one for Brian one that is he is more than willing to address in music but not articulate in any other way at least publicly. Therefore taken in that context this whole topic really isn't any great mystery as there are many people out there who deal with the deaths of loved ones the same way Brian does.
Logged
God Bless California
For It Marks My Faith To See
You're The Only State With The Sacred Honor
....to sink into the sea
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 2871
Re: \
«
Reply #22 on:
June 08, 2012, 06:17:10 PM »
Quote from: startBBtoday on June 08, 2012, 06:01:58 PM
I also think as much as we all love Dennis, he was probably a bit of a pain in the ass. Carl really helped Brian, especially by taking over the band like he did. If Carl was still around, he may be playing that Foskett role, Dennis wouldn't be.
Yeah, but for a while it was Dennis who really took over the creative element of the band in Brian's absence and, in fact, should have been given more creative space given the kind of stuff he was producing.
Logged
startBBtoday
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 693
Re: \
«
Reply #23 on:
June 08, 2012, 06:24:45 PM »
Quote from: rockandroll on June 08, 2012, 06:17:10 PM
Quote from: startBBtoday on June 08, 2012, 06:01:58 PM
I also think as much as we all love Dennis, he was probably a bit of a pain in the ass. Carl really helped Brian, especially by taking over the band like he did. If Carl was still around, he may be playing that Foskett role, Dennis wouldn't be.
Yeah, but for a while it was Dennis who really took over the creative element of the band in Brian's absence and, in fact, should have been given more creative space given the kind of stuff he was producing.
Yeah, but he was never the rock that Brian needs. Carl was in both production and being the band leader on tour.
Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 2871
Re: \
«
Reply #24 on:
June 08, 2012, 06:31:57 PM »
I've got nothing but profound respect for Carl but I do question whether or not Brian really needed Carl to stand in for him in terms of production and being a band leader. I mean, I can understand why it was important for the other guys and important for us, because otherwise we wouldn't have gotten some great albums. But if Brian was content to let the Beach Boys fizzle out, I don't really think it was all that important to him (at least not at the time) if things went on in his absence or not. It's not like it was crucial to have something there in case Brian got into the spirit again and wanted to make something like he did in the old days, since when he did (Til I Die, Mt. Vernon, etc.) he was still met with resistance.
«
Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 07:12:56 PM by rockandroll
»
Logged
Pages:
[
1
]
2
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
Smiley Smile Stuff
-----------------------------
=> BRIAN WILSON Q & A
=> Welcome to the Smiley Smile board
=> General On Topic Discussions
===> Ask The Honored Guests
===> Smiley Smile Reference Threads
=> Smile Sessions Box Set (2011)
=> The Beach Boys Media
=> Concert Reviews
=> Album, Book and Video Reviews And Discussions
===> 1960's Beach Boys Albums
===> 1970's Beach Boys Albums
===> 1980's Beach Boys Albums
===> 1990's Beach Boys Albums
===> 21st Century Beach Boys Albums
===> Brian Wilson Solo Albums
===> Other Solo Albums
===> Produced by or otherwise related to
===> Tribute Albums
===> DVDs and Videos
===> Book Reviews
===> 'Rank the Tracks'
===> Polls
-----------------------------
Non Smiley Smile Stuff
-----------------------------
=> General Music Discussion
=> General Entertainment Thread
=> Smiley Smilers Who Make Music
=> The Sandbox
Powered by SMF 1.1.21
|
SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.161 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi
design by
Bloc
Loading...