Play devils advocate. Is Brian Wilson NOT a musical genius?

[cablegeddon]

(Just for the record I consider BW a musical genius and the most talented composer to ever write pop music)


Speak to the idea that Brian Wilson is not a musical genius. For example

• 
  In the liner notes to Pet sounds sessions, it's described that most of the Wrecking crew didn't really care for BW's music and thought his instructions were sketchy and that he came in with just basic chord progressions, no notes.
  
  Brian has always said that he can't hear music in his head. He has to play the piano where as other great composers are known to compose symphonies in their head and then just put it on paper.
  
  

[Slow In Brain]

He may not be a genious 

[cablegeddon]

He may not be a genious 

hater 

[Slow In Brain]

Nope just a hard working fan

[lance]

I've only heard of Mozart 'hearing it all in his head' and taking, as it were, dictation when composing. I think most composers have to try things out and experiment. I think the problem is the definition of genius. It's either overused, or not used enough. I definitey consider him one of the greats. But I think there are lots of greats.

[Slow In Brain]

Apart from all the other voices that he hears, there is plenty of confirmation that the harmony structures are formulated in his head. Which has been the constant through his career.

[Amy B.]

So many people who are merely talented are described as geniuses these days and I find it annoying. The word has been diluted.

Interestingly, Hal Blaine said he thought the word was overused and that he reserved it for people like Einstein. So I guess he wouldn't apply it to Brian, even though he obviously has high regard for him. There is a difference (in my opinion) between being astoundingly good at what you do and being a genius. I think if you're a genius, you can unlock something no one else has been able to unlock.

I haven't read the Pet Sounds booklet in a long time, but I thought the Wrecking Crew was skeptical of Brian's abilities early on but later came to admire his work. And they were all asked whether they thought Brian was a genius, and several of them said yes.

Getting back to "merely talented versus genius," I suppose you could argue that Brian is very talented, but if he were a genius he would not have put out any bad songs, or he would have been writing symphonies at age 20, for example. But I think he's a genius, for his ability to create this very complex music (without training) yet make it completely accessible to the general public... and do it again and again. Not sure I'd use that word for any other pop songwriter.

[Ron]

The word 'Genius' definately is overused.  It's earlier use was for Brilliant people everybody knew about, like Amy said.  So Einstein was a genius, and it was obvious to everyone that he had analytical abilities much higher than most people do. 

Now the word is almost exclusively used to describe people who have an intellect that not everybody understands.  So it goes:

 - Brian is known by the casual observer as a member of the "Beach Boys" a pop phenomenon that mainly ruled in the 60's

 - Average people would say he was pretty good if he wrote all those songs

 - People who know more about him because they've delved deeper into the band, introduce him as a 'Genius', to tell everyone that they should take a closer look at him and how much musical talent he has.


Meanwhile, people like John Williams who have been making incredible music for decades, and everybody respects how great their music is, don't usually get called a genius, even though it's obvious to everyone that he has an extreme musical talent.   The music Williams makes takes much more effort to write and create than Brian's.

So I don't know, it's strange.  I do think Brian is a genius, however.

[Nicko1234]

If you were talking about the present tense then I think you would have to say that Brian isn`t a genius. You could look at his output from 1972 onwards and say that it isn`t the work of a genius.

[Cabinessenceking]

anyone who can come up with the chord progression of Surf's Up in just a couple of minutes is by definition a  genius.  You can hear from the sessions that he had a very good idea of how he wanted it.

[Jason]

I'd say it depends who you ask. If you ask the morons on the blueboard, they'll insist up and down that music began and ended with him and therefore he is not merely "A" musical genius but "THE" musical genius.

Is he a musical genius? Sure, in his own way, much like Hildegard of Bingen, Mozart, Beethoven, Gershwin, Frank Sinatra were in their own way.

[cablegeddon]

I've only heard of Mozart 'hearing it all in his head' and taking, as it were, dictation when composing. I think most composers have to try things out and experiment. I think the problem is the definition of genius. It's either overused, or not used enough. I definitey consider him one of the greats. But I think there are lots of greats.

Well Beethoven was deaf so......

[lance]

he wasn't fully deaf until the end of his career/life.

[cablegeddon]

he wasn't fully deaf until the end of his career/life.

I had no idea! That makes a world of a difference. I'll have to convert to a new religion now.

[NHC]

Hal Blaine remarked in one of the DVD's that they (the session players) seldom knew what the finished product sounded like unless they heard it on the radio or listened to the record, which, apparently, was not all that often. They weren't around for the vocal tracks or final "assembly". So it was hard to grasp the full measure of it just with the various tracks they played or heard in the studio. But he also said they quickly realized this guy (Brian) was not just some kid, he was something different. I think he might have even used the word genius, not sure right now. Genius?  Maybe, maybe not, how do you measure it and why bother?  But one of the best composers of popular music in our lifetime who gained the respect of some of the best players in the business?  Yes.

[Wirestone]

Mozart was exceptionally unusual. From all accounts, he did indeed hear everything in place, and just "wrote it down."

Beethoven was different. He worked very, very hard. Beethoven wrote and rewrote and rewrote his pieces. You can still see the notebooks where he wrestled with his materials. Beethoven's genius was one grounded in diligent, unceasing effort. Does that make it less impressive than Mozart's ability? Or more so?



Brian seems to generally not have fully arranged instrumental tracks in his head. He would have a part or three worked out (usually a bass line among them), which probably originated when he was writing the songs on a piano. At the height of his abilities, it seems like he probably had a bit more arranging aptitude, but he always leaned on the musicians to translate his ideas and offer suggestions.

But as people here note, Brian does have the ability to think in four or five part harmony. He can just do it -- think of the parts, hand them out, and have it done. And on virtually every album that he has a production credit on (and even a few that don't, like OCA), the one thing you can always be sure of is that Brian arranged all the vocals. Not because he wants to show off, and not because other people don't have ideas, but because it's his really singular gift, and it's still incredibly easy for him.

So there are several answers to your question. In the sense of sheer, Mozartian genius, Brian's abilities as a vocal arranger are deeply impressive. But he is also, perhaps, a genius of collaboration. He figured out how to use a half-dozen co-writers to express his deepest personal feelings. He arranged astonishing backing tracks on which he does not play. He produced records without any deep technical knowledge, but through friendships with a long line of sympathetic so-producers and engineers (starting with Chuck Britz). And even his vocal arrangements spring to life when sung by the multiple members of his band.

This kind of collaborative ability is underestimated. Think of all the times you've seen Brian praise his solo band as "better than the Beach Boys." Regardless of its truth, how do you think it makes his band feel? Awesome, I'd bet. And think about how he told Mike how great he sounded for 70 years old. Brian is a master encourager. Because this kind of praise -- coming from him -- makes people he works with feel great. And then they do great things for him.

[cablegeddon]

Mozart was exceptionally unusual. From all accounts, he did indeed hear everything in place, and just "wrote it down."

Beethoven was different. He worked very, very hard. Beethoven wrote and rewrote and rewrote his pieces. You can still see the notebooks where he wrestled with his materials. Beethoven's genius was one grounded in diligent, unceasing effort. Does that make it less impressive than Mozart's ability? Or more so?



Brian seems to generally not have fully arranged instrumental tracks in his head. He would have a part or three worked out (usually a bass line among them), which probably originated when he was writing the songs on a piano. At the height of his abilities, it seems like he probably had a bit more arranging aptitude, but he always leaned on the musicians to translate his ideas and offer suggestions.

But as people here note, Brian does have the ability to think in four or five part harmony. He can just do it -- think of the parts, hand them out, and have it done. And on virtually every album that he has a production credit on (and even a few that don't, like OCA), the one thing you can always be sure of is that Brian arranged all the vocals. Not because he wants to show off, and not because other people don't have ideas, but because it's his really singular gift, and it's still incredibly easy for him.

So there are several answers to your question. In the sense of sheer, Mozartian genius, Brian's abilities as a vocal arranger are deeply impressive. But he is also, perhaps, a genius of collaboration. He figured out how to use a half-dozen co-writers to express his deepest personal feelings. He arranged astonishing backing tracks on which he does not play. He produced records without any deep technical knowledge, but through friendships with a long line of sympathetic so-producers and engineers (starting with Chuck Britz). And even his vocal arrangements spring to life when sung by the multiple members of his band.

This kind of collaborative ability is underestimated. Think of all the times you've seen Brian praise his solo band as "better than the Beach Boys." Regardless of its truth, how do you think it makes his band feel? Awesome, I'd bet. And think about how he told Mike how great he sounded for 70 years old. Brian is a master encourager. Because this kind of praise -- coming from him -- makes people he works with feel great. And then they do great things for him.

I applaud you for your post. (even though you didn't play devil's advocate)


Just to defend myself...if Beethoven was deaf and continued to compose music......where was his music? Possibly it was in his head and he put it on paper right?

[lance]

he wasn't fully deaf until the end of his career/life.

I had no idea! That makes a world of a difference. I'll have to convert to a new religion now.

No need for that, but it does make a difference in the context of my post and your reply.

[lance]

Mozart was exceptionally unusual. From all accounts, he did indeed hear everything in place, and just "wrote it down."

Beethoven was different. He worked very, very hard. Beethoven wrote and rewrote and rewrote his pieces. You can still see the notebooks where he wrestled with his materials. Beethoven's genius was one grounded in diligent, unceasing effort. Does that make it less impressive than Mozart's ability? Or more so?



Brian seems to generally not have fully arranged instrumental tracks in his head. He would have a part or three worked out (usually a bass line among them), which probably originated when he was writing the songs on a piano. At the height of his abilities, it seems like he probably had a bit more arranging aptitude, but he always leaned on the musicians to translate his ideas and offer suggestions.

But as people here note, Brian does have the ability to think in four or five part harmony. He can just do it -- think of the parts, hand them out, and have it done. And on virtually every album that he has a production credit on (and even a few that don't, like OCA), the one thing you can always be sure of is that Brian arranged all the vocals. Not because he wants to show off, and not because other people don't have ideas, but because it's his really singular gift, and it's still incredibly easy for him.

So there are several answers to your question. In the sense of sheer, Mozartian genius, Brian's abilities as a vocal arranger are deeply impressive. But he is also, perhaps, a genius of collaboration. He figured out how to use a half-dozen co-writers to express his deepest personal feelings. He arranged astonishing backing tracks on which he does not play. He produced records without any deep technical knowledge, but through friendships with a long line of sympathetic so-producers and engineers (starting with Chuck Britz). And even his vocal arrangements spring to life when sung by the multiple members of his band.

This kind of collaborative ability is underestimated. Think of all the times you've seen Brian praise his solo band as "better than the Beach Boys." Regardless of its truth, how do you think it makes his band feel? Awesome, I'd bet. And think about how he told Mike how great he sounded for 70 years old. Brian is a master encourager. Because this kind of praise -- coming from him -- makes people he works with feel great. And then they do great things for him.

I applaud you for your post. (even though you didn't play devil's advocate)


Just to defend myself...if Beethoven was deaf and continued to compose music......where was his music? Possibly it was in his head and he put it on paper right?

Well, he wrote at the piano. When his hearing got worse he stopped using the orchestra as a writing tool* and he would have to put his ear against the piano to hear what he was writing. In the very end, he must have learned how to imagine it in his head, but I don't think it ever flowed out of him like Mozart. He was less prolific and lived a lot longer.

*what I mean is he would sometimes have orchestras perform pieces for him and then rewrite them--I have heard recordings of 'alternate takes' that he had written)

[monicker]

Great composers are known to compose symphonies in their head?
John Williams?
Frank Sinatra?
Writing the Surf’s Up chord progression in just a couple of minutes is by definition genius?
Beethoven was deaf?

What else?

[AndrewHickey]

Meanwhile, people like John Williams who have been making incredible music for decades, and everybody respects how great their music is, don't usually get called a genius, even though it's obvious to everyone that he has an extreme musical talent.   The music Williams makes takes much more effort to write and create than Brian's.

So I don't know, it's strange.  I do think Brian is a genius, however.

Williams' music may take more effort, in the sense that what he's doing requires writing parts for a larger set of musicians and so on, but in terms of creativity or imagination there's not much there -- it's all warmed-over Wagner. It's effectively-done warmed-over Wagner, admittedly, but it's the kind of thing that anyone who did a degree in music could do. That's not to disparage his work -- he's done it and others haven't, after all -- but there's nothing in there that's on the same level *imaginatively* as Brian's best work.

[monicker]

Wagner, Copland, and especially Bernard Herrmann. John Williams is McComposing.

[AndrewHickey]

I've only heard of Mozart 'hearing it all in his head' and taking, as it were, dictation when composing. I think most composers have to try things out and experiment.

It's actually a fairly common thing. I know I've heard entire records in my head -- music, lyrics, arrangements, production, everything -- and I'm certainly no Mozart. Paul McCartney has had whole songs come to him in dreams -- most famously Yesterday, but also a couple of others.

Where experimentation comes in, for a lot of people, is adapting that music to what is possible with the tools at hand. The parts one hears in one's head may not be physically realisable -- a vocal melody may stretch across more notes than a singer can hit, a horn part may require more register changes than a player can comfortably accomodate, or the sound may not even be one that can be realised by any existing instrument. Or the composer may hear two short sections of music in her head that feel like they should be part of the same piece, and then have to compose linking material to bridge the two sections.

What does seem to be the case, though, is that while some composers hear music in their heads, that music is neither better or worse (as far as listeners can tell) than the music they sit down and consciously write one note after another, and there is little or no correlation between hearing music in your head and compositional ability.

[Autotune]

Mozart was exceptionally unusual. From all accounts, he did indeed hear everything in place, and just "wrote it down."

Beethoven was different. He worked very, very hard. Beethoven wrote and rewrote and rewrote his pieces. You can still see the notebooks where he wrestled with his materials. Beethoven's genius was one grounded in diligent, unceasing effort. Does that make it less impressive than Mozart's ability? Or more so?



Brian seems to generally not have fully arranged instrumental tracks in his head. He would have a part or three worked out (usually a bass line among them), which probably originated when he was writing the songs on a piano. At the height of his abilities, it seems like he probably had a bit more arranging aptitude, but he always leaned on the musicians to translate his ideas and offer suggestions.

But as people here note, Brian does have the ability to think in four or five part harmony. He can just do it -- think of the parts, hand them out, and have it done. And on virtually every album that he has a production credit on (and even a few that don't, like OCA), the one thing you can always be sure of is that Brian arranged all the vocals. Not because he wants to show off, and not because other people don't have ideas, but because it's his really singular gift, and it's still incredibly easy for him.

So there are several answers to your question. In the sense of sheer, Mozartian genius, Brian's abilities as a vocal arranger are deeply impressive. But he is also, perhaps, a genius of collaboration. He figured out how to use a half-dozen co-writers to express his deepest personal feelings. He arranged astonishing backing tracks on which he does not play. He produced records without any deep technical knowledge, but through friendships with a long line of sympathetic so-producers and engineers (starting with Chuck Britz). And even his vocal arrangements spring to life when sung by the multiple members of his band.

This kind of collaborative ability is underestimated. Think of all the times you've seen Brian praise his solo band as "better than the Beach Boys." Regardless of its truth, how do you think it makes his band feel? Awesome, I'd bet. And think about how he told Mike how great he sounded for 70 years old. Brian is a master encourager. Because this kind of praise -- coming from him -- makes people he works with feel great. And then they do great things for him.

I appreciate your post!
Just would like to mention that, appart from being an extraordinary talent, Mozart did work hard on his music, as the tens or hundreds of surviving sketches show.

If an aristic genius is a person that, with some consistency, tends to create masterpieces in his field, then perhaps the term can be applied to Brian. He created several songs/recordings that are masterpieces, appart from quite a few minor gems. He has a songsmith's craft that he keeps to this day, manages to dialogue with his tradition and time and place while introducing his own vision and originality. Has a natural -if developed- talent for vocal arranging, and a sixth sense for voicing and pacing. But I agree wholeheartedly with your remarks about Brian's abilities as a collaborator.

[AndrewHickey]

Mozart was exceptionally unusual. From all accounts, he did indeed hear everything in place, and just "wrote it down."

Beethoven was different. He worked very, very hard. Beethoven wrote and rewrote and rewrote his pieces. You can still see the notebooks where he wrestled with his materials. Beethoven's genius was one grounded in diligent, unceasing effort. Does that make it less impressive than Mozart's ability? Or more so?



Brian seems to generally not have fully arranged instrumental tracks in his head. He would have a part or three worked out (usually a bass line among them), which probably originated when he was writing the songs on a piano. At the height of his abilities, it seems like he probably had a bit more arranging aptitude, but he always leaned on the musicians to translate his ideas and offer suggestions.

But as people here note, Brian does have the ability to think in four or five part harmony. He can just do it -- think of the parts, hand them out, and have it done. And on virtually every album that he has a production credit on (and even a few that don't, like OCA), the one thing you can always be sure of is that Brian arranged all the vocals. Not because he wants to show off, and not because other people don't have ideas, but because it's his really singular gift, and it's still incredibly easy for him.

So there are several answers to your question. In the sense of sheer, Mozartian genius, Brian's abilities as a vocal arranger are deeply impressive. But he is also, perhaps, a genius of collaboration. He figured out how to use a half-dozen co-writers to express his deepest personal feelings. He arranged astonishing backing tracks on which he does not play. He produced records without any deep technical knowledge, but through friendships with a long line of sympathetic so-producers and engineers (starting with Chuck Britz). And even his vocal arrangements spring to life when sung by the multiple members of his band.

This kind of collaborative ability is underestimated. Think of all the times you've seen Brian praise his solo band as "better than the Beach Boys." Regardless of its truth, how do you think it makes his band feel? Awesome, I'd bet. And think about how he told Mike how great he sounded for 70 years old. Brian is a master encourager. Because this kind of praise -- coming from him -- makes people he works with feel great. And then they do great things for him.

I applaud you for your post. (even though you didn't play devil's advocate)


Just to defend myself...if Beethoven was deaf and continued to compose music......where was his music? Possibly it was in his head and he put it on paper right?

Well, he wrote at the piano. When his hearing got worse he stopped using the orchestra as a writing tool* and he would have to put his ear against the piano to hear what he was writing. In the very end, he must have learned how to imagine it in his head, but I don't think it ever flowed out of him like Mozart. He was less prolific and lived a lot longer.

*what I mean is he would sometimes have orchestras perform pieces for him and then rewrite them--I have heard recordings of 'alternate takes' that he had written)