Holy Bee returns with latest crackpot theory: SMiLE almost done in Nov 66

[soniclovenoize]

Exactly what he intended to do with it, though, we'll probably never know. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is with some details of Smile.

But that's what we are saying--if we don't know exactly what he was going to do with, then the possibility of it being a Barnyard suite shouldn't be ruled because we don't know either way. 

We know this about IIGS:
1) It became it's own separate entity from H&V, enough to be considered a separate track
2) It's a fragment, a middle piece, requiring more sections
3) the lyrics concern a farmer waking up in the morning

So there is no direct evidence that the listing of IIGS on the tracklist is meant to be this Barnyard Suite, but just look: the song is about a farmer waking up.  And then we have a different piece that was gutted from H&V, it's in the same key, and is about a barnyard.  Well, we have HALF of a theoretical Barnyard right there!  Pretty neat coincidence, don't you think?  Yeah, you can't prove anything, but it sure is funny how things work out sometimes... 

Then, there's the aforementioned quote by Brian saying there was a Barnyard Suite...  But the counter argument here, if I'm understanding correctly, is that:
1) since the quote dates from 1977, it's unreliable
2) we have no other sources, so it must not be true
No offense, but I don't find either point to completely rule the possibility of a Barnyard Suite out.  The fact that there's no additional information doesn't rule it out, it just makes it unfortunate for us.  What was the exact microphone used to mic the trumpet on OMP?  We don't know, so it must not have been mic'd at all.  Does that make sense?  No of course not.

Also, the thought of Brian confusing the nature's elements (earth, wind, water and fire) with animals on the barnyard?  Are you serious?  That's like confusing a vegetable with a wind chime. 

It just seems to be such a completely pessimistic analysis. 

[soniclovenoize]

"The Barnyard Suite, that was going to be four songs - in four short pieces - combined together, but we never finished that one. We got into something else."

WAIT

What if he was indeed talking about The Elements here as you suggest...  and that Brian meant that the section of Barnyard was meant to be the "earth" section of The Elements, to be combined with Mrs O'Leary's Cow? 

 

[Beach Head]

WAIT

What if he was indeed talking about The Elements here as you suggest...  and that Brian meant that the section of Barnyard was meant to be the "earth" section of The Elements, to be combined with Mrs O'Leary's Cow? 

 

That actually makes a lot more sense to me than the idea that through the now 40+ year history of Smile, a second four-part suite was mentioned by Brian only once and never mentioned by anyone else at any time. I mean, think about it, as much time and effort as has been put into research and documentation of Smile, nothing else has ever turned up about a "Barnyard" suite?!! That's just unbelievable! Literally!

[soniclovenoize]

WAIT

What if he was indeed talking about The Elements here as you suggest...  and that Brian meant that the section of Barnyard was meant to be the "earth" section of The Elements, to be combined with Mrs O'Leary's Cow? 

 

That actually makes a lot more sense to me than the idea that through the now 40+ year history of Smile, a second four-part suite was mentioned by Brian only once and never mentioned by anyone else at any time. I mean, think about it, as much time and effort as has been put into research and documentation of Smile, nothing else has ever turned up about a "Barnyard" suite?!! That's just unbelievable! Literally!

I can actually believe it because we have a little scrap of it already, you know? 

But as you and I can agree, there's not enough information to know either way.   

[Beach Head]

I can actually believe it because we have a little scrap of it already, you know?

Of a "Barnyard" suite? You'll have to explain that to me. I don't deny that we have "a little scrap" of a "Barnyard" song/track/section/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, but that's a far cry from having a suite or anything indicative of a suite (like the recording session ID we have for "Fire" and "The Elements").

[soniclovenoize]

I can actually believe it because we have a little scrap of it already, you know?

Of a "Barnyard" suite? You'll have to explain that to me. I don't deny that we have "a little scrap" of a "Barnyard" song/track/section/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, but that's a far cry from having a suite or anything indicative of a suite (like the recording session ID we have for "Fire" and "The Elements").

We know because Brian said-so, remember? 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I can actually believe it because we have a little scrap of it already, you know?

Of a "Barnyard" suite? You'll have to explain that to me. I don't deny that we have "a little scrap" of a "Barnyard" song/track/section/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, but that's a far cry from having a suite or anything indicative of a suite (like the recording session ID we have for "Fire" and "The Elements").

We know because Brian said-so, remember? 

Right around the same time he started talking about how the tapes had been thrown into the fire.

[soniclovenoize]

I can actually believe it because we have a little scrap of it already, you know?

Of a "Barnyard" suite? You'll have to explain that to me. I don't deny that we have "a little scrap" of a "Barnyard" song/track/section/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, but that's a far cry from having a suite or anything indicative of a suite (like the recording session ID we have for "Fire" and "The Elements").

We know because Brian said-so, remember? 

Right around the same time he started talking about how the tapes had been thrown into the fire.

Haha duly noted. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think another logical possibility is that when he said Barnyard Suite, he was thinking about what we come to think of as Heroes and Villains-I'm in Great Shape - Barnyard --> and then, maybe something else. That the Barnyard Suite was the name given, at that temporary moment for what we think of more as a Heroes and Villains suite.

[soniclovenoize]

I think another logical possibility is that when he said Barnyard Suite, he was thinking about what we come to think of as Heroes and Villains-I'm in Great Shape - Barnyard --> and then, maybe something else. That the Barnyard Suite was the name given, at that temporary moment for what we think of more as a Heroes and Villains suite.

Yeah, I thought of that last night, but by 1977, why would Brian have to ambiguously describe H&V as a "Barnyard Suite" if it was already a well known song for a decade?

Unless you mean the early incarnation of H&V? 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well, because it was something different. I mean, on the demo, H&V is only two verses before it becomes something else entirely that had nothing to do with the finished product that was released as a single the following year.

But mostly I think Brian is kind of making something up in order to explain the larger truth of the Smile experience - that he had conceived many interesting ideas that were abandoned in favor of somehing else. For some reason Brian has made up other things about Barnyard. "Barnyard Billy loves his chicken" anyone?

[Roger Ryan]

Well, because it was something different. I mean, on the demo, H&V is only two verses before it becomes something else entirely that had nothing to do with the finished product that was released as a single the following year.

But mostly I think Brian is kind of making something up in order to explain the larger truth of the Smile experience - that he had conceived many interesting ideas that were abandoned in favor of somehing else. For some reason Brian has made up other things about Barnyard. "Barnyard Billy loves his chicken" anyone?

Yeah, Brian always seemed to allude to barnyard imagery in describing SMiLE...probably because the agrarian culture was referenced so often by Parks lyrics. Knowing how Brian will often interpret questions, I have no problem believing that Brian would assume a question about a "Barnyard Suite" was actually a question about "The Elements Suite".

[The_Holy_Bee]

Just got back, so a full post will have to wait, but I'm a little surprised there was no direct response to my last post. Maybe it was a little long-winded (though short by my standards!). In the meantime, what I said was essentially this from Rockandroll:

"I think another logical possibility is that when he said Barnyard Suite, he was thinking about what we come to think of as Heroes and Villains-I'm in Great Shape - Barnyard --> and then, maybe something else. That the Barnyard Suite was the name given, at that temporary moment for what we think of more as a Heroes and Villains suite."

I think I answered the question pretty concisely. Would love to hear some folks' thoughts.

[LostArt]

"The Barnyard Suite, that was going to be four songs - in four short pieces - combined together, but we never finished that one. We got into something else."
 
It would be nice to know the context in which Brian makes this statement. 

Did an interviewer ask Brian what songs were to be on Smile, to which Brian gave this answer?  We simply don't know. 

Or did the interviewer ask about early incarnations of H&V, possibly thinking about the Humble Harv demo (possibly not)?  I'm not sure, but I don't think Brian would refer to H&V as The Barnyard Suite.  The Humble Harv tape was discovered much later, wasn't it? 

Or did the interviewer ask specifically about a Barnyard Suite?  If so, then there must have been some common knowledge of such a 'suite'.

We just don't have enough information about this quote to form any concrete opinions about it.   

[soniclovenoize]

Just got back, so a full post will have to wait, but I'm a little surprised there was no direct response to my last post. Maybe it was a little long-winded (though short by my standards!). In the meantime, what I said was essentially this from Rockandroll:

"I think another logical possibility is that when he said Barnyard Suite, he was thinking about what we come to think of as Heroes and Villains-I'm in Great Shape - Barnyard --> and then, maybe something else. That the Barnyard Suite was the name given, at that temporary moment for what we think of more as a Heroes and Villains suite."

I think I answered the question pretty concisely. Would love to hear some folks' thoughts.

I think I already talked about that...  That by 1977, H&V had been commonly known for a decade as one of the few SMiLE survivors; it would seem a bit odd to refer to it so ambiguously at that point in the game...

[guitarfool2002]

Keep in mind how many people around him during this time would witness Brian getting excited about an idea, musical or otherwise, make all kinds of plans and details around the idea, get everyone around him on board with the enthusiasm and creativity boiling over, then all but forget about it as early as the next day. You could make an interesting list of these ideas that never materialized...among them is Vosse in "Teen Set" quoting Brian's plans to shoot a "Barnyard" film featuring a chicken wearing tennis shoes at Paul Robbins' place. As far as we know, unless someone has found a reel of film in a vault somewhere, that "Barnyard" film never happened beyond Brian's words in that magazine article.

Same thing with sending Desper and Vosse at separate times "into the field" with studio-quality recording gear to record water sounds and all but forgetting about them and the tapes.

I'm thinking this mythical "Barnyard Suite" was a possibility in Brian's mind just like the chicken wearing sneakers film, and it just never happened.

[PhilCohen]

"Smile" almost complete in Nov.1966? I doubt it, but perhaps it was almost complete in April 1967. We don't know(and perhaps will never know) how much closer to completion "Smile" came in those still-missing tapes. Only Brian Wilson knows what was on those tapes, and no one has asked him. Perhaps some day, some of those tapes will be found, and we will get a partial answer to these mysteries.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Okay, to begin:

“And claiming "well there should be some evidence..." is clearly a cop-out, for a subject where not a lot of evidence exists.  Analysis is required, which is what I assumed this thread was platform for?”

Actually, this thread – not that I mind it’s organically evolved as people have posted! – was about using the contemporary data to build a thesis, not so much about analysis. Obviously the latter will play an important role, but my original plea was for any such conjecture to rely as much as possible on what we do know. And I’m not sure I agree there is a particular lack of data here.

So, in that spirit, “I’m in Great Shape” – “The Elements”, “Barnyard Suite” or both?

As of October, into November, 1966, “I’m in Great Shape” is part of Heroes and Villians. The evidence for this? The session logs for the backing track, which have the 30 second “IIGS” snippet as part of H&V. This is pretty solidly backed up by Brian’s rundown for Humble Harv. The same applies, obviously, for Barnyard. I’d say this is pretty conclusive evidence that “I’m in Great Shape” was conceived and tracked not as its own number but as a section of the original “3 minute musical comedy” version of Heroes.

The next reference we have to “Great Shape” is a notation for the 11-29 “Friday Night” tracking session. This, again, is contemporary data. It is possible that “Great Shape” is a transcription error, but on what basis might one argue this? (The only reason I can see is if it doesn’t fit with received wisdom or one’s own preferences.) Further, in terms of a connection to IIGS/Barnyard etc, we have this from Vosse in Fusion: “... and [minor key YAMS] developed into an instrumental thing with barnyard sounds, people sawing – he had people in the studio sawing wood – and Van Dyke being a duck – and it was marvellous.”

Obviously this is conflating at least three pieces – “The Old Master Painter”, “Workshop” and “Barnyard” - but this is an almost contemporary anecdotal connection to “I’m in Great Shape” (through its songmate “Barnyard”) and through that, to Heroes.

(And, of course, a four-part “Barnyard Suite” comprising a series of short sections. As to the Teen Scene description of a film featuring “a chicken in tennis shoes bopping around” - if this wasn’t a Brian-Vosse put on – then since “Barnyard” was part of “Heroes” when the article was written, then what’s being described is almost certainly Brian’s concept for the video clip for that single.

It also lends weight to the idea that Brian’s comment to Priess in ’77 – bearing in mind his problems at the time, his preference not to think too deeply about SMiLE over the previous ten years and that the final form of Heroes was created in at atmosphere approaching desperation – is a description either of the original form of that track, or of a conceived structure for its orphaned sections.)

Finally, we have the December tracklist, which lists “I’m in Great Shape” as a discrete track. If, as I conjecture above, this is indicative of separating at least that section off from H&V by mid-December in order to rework the single, then my analysis would be that “Workshop” was taped at the very end of November in order to replace the Heroes and Villains verses that were originally intended to precede IIGS/Barnyard. As a final observation on this, the structure of the February “Cantina” version follows quite closely a likely structure for the October conception, with the following substitutions:

Heroes Verse/I’m in Great Shape/(third section, possibly Heroes Verse 2)/Barnyard (fade)
Heroes Verse/In the Cantina/Heroes Verse 2/Barnshine (fade)

*****

So what conclusions can we draw from the above?

Fairly conclusively that at least until the first week of November, “I’m Great Shape” didn’t exist as a song – it was part of Heroes and Villains. So in the “fully conceived” version of SMiLE this thread was intended to argue existed in October 1966, there was no “I’m in Great Shape”.

Then things changed – at least by December, when the mystery track we’ve debated for decades suddenly arrives on the Captol memo. And the only hard data we have for that version is the (Great Shape) notation on “Workshop”, though we also have Vosse’s recollection of an instrumental featuring “sawing sounds” as developed from The Old Master Painter and connected to “Barnyard”.

Pretty strong evidence, I would argue, for “I’m in Great Shape” as “Barnyard Suite”, featuring at least “I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night”, “I’m in Great Shape” and “Barnyard”, possibly to follow “The Old Master Painter/You are My Sunshine” - or at least an off shoot of an earlier “Barnyard Suite” called “Heroes and Villains”.

(If, indeed, there was any further thought on "Great Shape" after it was excised from Heroes, for which the only evidence is that "Friday Night" notation and the memo. No other recording, vocal or instrumental, seems to have been done for the track - except for Workshop - after the October "Heroes" sessions.)

Whereas, I can’t see a single piece of supporting data for Great Shape as part of The Elements, except for Carol Kaye’s comments (on the session as well as in later interviews) about “Workshop” (if we do assume this to be part of IIGS) beingWh “rebuilding after the fire” which – considering that session followed the Fire one the previous day – is probably a flippant comment and at the very least isn’t backed up by anything written down, or in quotes attributed to the principles, at the time.

So we’re left with the argument that farm animals and wordwork are more earth-related than vegetables – which strikes me, in the face of the above data, as insubstantial basis for an analysis.

Thoughts?

[The_Holy_Bee]

"Smile" almost complete in Nov.1966? I doubt it, but perhaps it was almost complete in April 1967. We don't know(and perhaps will never know) how much closer to completion "Smile" came in those still-missing tapes. Only Brian Wilson knows what was on those tapes, and no one has asked him. Perhaps some day, some of those tapes will be found, and we will get a partial answer to these mysteries.

Thanks Phil, but could you back up that statement with reference to my original essay on the the topic? Would love to know where you think my thesis falls short.

[PhilCohen]

"Smile" almost complete in Nov.1966? I doubt it, but perhaps it was almost complete in April 1967. We don't know(and perhaps will never know) how much closer to completion "Smile" came in those still-missing tapes. Only Brian Wilson knows what was on those tapes, and no one has asked him. Perhaps some day, some of those tapes will be found, and we will get a partial answer to these mysteries.

Thanks Phil, but could you back up that statement with reference to my original essay on the the topic? Would love to know where you think my thesis falls short.

Because of existing session paperwork showing the dates when each song was recorded or attempted.

[soniclovenoize]

Okay, to begin:

“And claiming "well there should be some evidence..." is clearly a cop-out, for a subject where not a lot of evidence exists.  Analysis is required, which is what I assumed this thread was platform for?”

Actually, this thread – not that I mind it’s organically evolved as people have posted! – was about using the contemporary data to build a thesis, not so much about analysis. Obviously the latter will play an important role, but my original plea was for any such conjecture to rely as much as possible on what we do know. And I’m not sure I agree there is a particular lack of data here.

So, in that spirit, “I’m in Great Shape” – “The Elements”, “Barnyard Suite” or both?

As of October, into November, 1966, “I’m in Great Shape” is part of Heroes and Villians. The evidence for this? The session logs for the backing track, which have the 30 second “IIGS” snippet as part of H&V. This is pretty solidly backed up by Brian’s rundown for Humble Harv. The same applies, obviously, for Barnyard. I’d say this is pretty conclusive evidence that “I’m in Great Shape” was conceived and tracked not as its own number but as a section of the original “3 minute musical comedy” version of Heroes.

The next reference we have to “Great Shape” is a notation for the 11-29 “Friday Night” tracking session. This, again, is contemporary data. It is possible that “Great Shape” is a transcription error, but on what basis might one argue this? (The only reason I can see is if it doesn’t fit with received wisdom or one’s own preferences.) Further, in terms of a connection to IIGS/Barnyard etc, we have this from Vosse in Fusion: “... and [minor key YAMS] developed into an instrumental thing with barnyard sounds, people sawing – he had people in the studio sawing wood – and Van Dyke being a duck – and it was marvellous.”

Obviously this is conflating at least three pieces – “The Old Master Painter”, “Workshop” and “Barnyard” - but this is an almost contemporary anecdotal connection to “I’m in Great Shape” (through its songmate “Barnyard”) and through that, to Heroes.

(And, of course, a four-part “Barnyard Suite” comprising a series of short sections. As to the Teen Scene description of a film featuring “a chicken in tennis shoes bopping around” - if this wasn’t a Brian-Vosse put on – then since “Barnyard” was part of “Heroes” when the article was written, then what’s being described is almost certainly Brian’s concept for the video clip for that single.

It also lends weight to the idea that Brian’s comment to Priess in ’77 – bearing in mind his problems at the time, his preference not to think too deeply about SMiLE over the previous ten years and that the final form of Heroes was created in at atmosphere approaching desperation – is a description either of the original form of that track, or of a conceived structure for its orphaned sections.)

Finally, we have the December tracklist, which lists “I’m in Great Shape” as a discrete track. If, as I conjecture above, this is indicative of separating at least that section off from H&V by mid-December in order to rework the single, then my analysis would be that “Workshop” was taped at the very end of November in order to replace the Heroes and Villains verses that were originally intended to precede IIGS/Barnyard. As a final observation on this, the structure of the February “Cantina” version follows quite closely a likely structure for the October conception, with the following substitutions:

Heroes Verse/I’m in Great Shape/(third section, possibly Heroes Verse 2)/Barnyard (fade)
Heroes Verse/In the Cantina/Heroes Verse 2/Barnshine (fade)

*****

So what conclusions can we draw from the above?

Fairly conclusively that at least until the first week of November, “I’m Great Shape” didn’t exist as a song – it was part of Heroes and Villains. So in the “fully conceived” version of SMiLE this thread was intended to argue existed in October 1966, there was no “I’m in Great Shape”.

Then things changed – at least by December, when the mystery track we’ve debated for decades suddenly arrives on the Captol memo. And the only hard data we have for that version is the (Great Shape) notation on “Workshop”, though we also have Vosse’s recollection of an instrumental featuring “sawing sounds” as developed from The Old Master Painter and connected to “Barnyard”.

Pretty strong evidence, I would argue, for “I’m in Great Shape” as “Barnyard Suite”, featuring at least “I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night”, “I’m in Great Shape” and “Barnyard”, possibly to follow “The Old Master Painter/You are My Sunshine” - or at least an off shoot of an earlier “Barnyard Suite” called “Heroes and Villains”.

(If, indeed, there was any further thought on "Great Shape" after it was excised from Heroes, for which the only evidence is that "Friday Night" notation and the memo. No other recording, vocal or instrumental, seems to have been done for the track - except for Workshop - after the October "Heroes" sessions.)

Whereas, I can’t see a single piece of supporting data for Great Shape as part of The Elements, except for Carol Kaye’s comments (on the session as well as in later interviews) about “Workshop” (if we do assume this to be part of IIGS) beingWh “rebuilding after the fire” which – considering that session followed the Fire one the previous day – is probably a flippant comment and at the very least isn’t backed up by anything written down, or in quotes attributed to the principles, at the time.

So we’re left with the argument that farm animals and wordwork are more earth-related than vegetables – which strikes me, in the face of the above data, as insubstantial basis for an analysis.

Thoughts?

I think I agree with you!     

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hey Sonic, I thought you might - saw a lot of this in your posts above. Sorry for not giving credit; the idea of quoting extensively did my head in!

[soniclovenoize]

haha It's OK.  I'm sure I"m not the first one to think Barnyard->IIGS->IWBA->Workshop anyways.   

[The_Holy_Bee]

See, actually - on the basis of what I posted above - I'd be inclined to go IWBA/Workshop-I'm in Great Shape-Barnyard. But regardless of the order, you have a 2-3 minute track there which more or less follows the original schematic for Heroes minus the titular verses. I'm working on both a November and a December mix at the moment, which is quite revealing in several small ways - I've limited myself to only using backing tracks recorded prior to the end of November 1966, and for all the compromises - early Veggies demo instead of its more developed April incarnation, less pieces for Heroes, no Dada - it sounds much more like the "beautiful miniature" Van Dyke has described it as, rather than the sprawling "rock opera" we got in 2004. Not that that - just to be clear! - wasn't and isn't wonderful and perfect in its own right.

[soniclovenoize]

That would be an interesting listen, I guess that will make-or-break your theory! 

I always thought that IIGS and IWBA sounded like middle-pieces, Workshop sounded like an end-piece and Barnyard sounded like a beginning-piece.  But I will admit, I can also see Barnyard as a fade too!