New Icon Fetch Interview with Mark & Alan

[hypehat]

http://www.iconfetch.com/great-music-interviews/2011-shows/440-mark-linett-a-alan-boyd-smile-followup.html


Bah, good interview, but it hates my computer. Does anyone elses stop when they start playing Cabinessence?

Hey - Tony from Icon Fetch here.  For those having problems with the audio player, it's apparently a Flash problem.  If you update to the latest version, it should remedy the situation.  Shutting down and restarting your browser solves it too.

Part 2 will be posted in a week.

Enjoy.


Tony
Icon Fetch

Yeah, it was just my computer having a funny five minutes. Thanks so much for making these interviews happen, by the way 

[buddhahat]

Yes Tony - thanks so much for these interviews. This one is especially interesting, hearing Mark & Alan answering some of the questions that have plagued the board for years (Durrie Parks acetates for one). And thanks for submitting my question too. Great to hear a definitive answer on how the Heroes Part 2 mix was compiled.

[Roger Ryan]

Is it just me or did they not really answer too many of the questions?  What was the sequence of the average version of Child they took the chorus with the extra vocals from?  It wasn't' what was used on cd1, that was based on  BWPS. 

Actually, I thought they answered almost all of the questions that I had about the set. However, you're right that given how much time they spent talking about "The Child Is Father Of The Man" assembly, they didn't really address where the vocals came from (how did the rest of that acetate go?) plus the fact that the Disc 1 version doesn't really mirror the BWPS version which goes verse/chorus/verse/chorus/moody piano bridge (Disc 1 goes vocal/piano chorus variation/moody piano bridge/chorus/verse/chorus).

By the way, for those who didn't have a chance to hear the interview, Brian's original rough mix sequencing of "Child" reportedly went chorus/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/half-chorus.

[adam78]

I only listened to this once yesterday, but didn't Mark say he was preparing the stereo track of Good Vibrations for the anniversary release, and then decided to put it on TSS? Then they started talking about hearing isolated elements, (vocals), of the mono track for good vibrations and how they weren't too pleased with the results. Do you think they are/were having a go at doing a full stereo version for the anniversary using this method? If you've heard the beatles rockband multi tracks, then you'll know it can be done VERY well...sometimes. To the degree that you'd never know it was extracted from a mono full mix. Of course some of them aren't as isolated as well.

I'm starting to get excited at the thought of what they may release next year now that smile is in my hands.....

[Roger Ryan]

I only listened to this once yesterday, but didn't Mark say he was preparing the stereo track of Good Vibrations for the anniversary release, and then decided to put it on TSS? Then they started talking about hearing isolated elements, (vocals), of the mono track for good vibrations and how they weren't too pleased with the results. Do you think they are/were having a go at doing a full stereo version for the anniversary using this method? If you've heard the beatles rockband multi tracks, then you'll know it can be done VERY well...sometimes. To the degree that you'd never know it was extracted from a mono full mix. Of course some of them aren't as isolated as well.

I'm starting to get excited at the thought of what they may release next year now that smile is in my hands.....

What Mark was talking about was editing the stereo mix of the backing track which did indeed appear on the 2006 anniversary CD single of "Good Vibrations". The backing track appears for a second time on the TSS set. HOWEVER, pay close attention and you'll hear that the drum is missing from the last section of the version on TSS whereas it appears intact on the 2006 release.

The rest of the discussion was based on various YouTube experiments with vocal isolation they've listened to (like we all have) and their feeling that the results are not strong enough to issue an "official" stereo mix of the song.

[adam78]

I only listened to this once yesterday, but didn't Mark say he was preparing the stereo track of Good Vibrations for the anniversary release, and then decided to put it on TSS? Then they started talking about hearing isolated elements, (vocals), of the mono track for good vibrations and how they weren't too pleased with the results. Do you think they are/were having a go at doing a full stereo version for the anniversary using this method? If you've heard the beatles rockband multi tracks, then you'll know it can be done VERY well...sometimes. To the degree that you'd never know it was extracted from a mono full mix. Of course some of them aren't as isolated as well.

I'm starting to get excited at the thought of what they may release next year now that smile is in my hands.....

What Mark was talking about was editing the stereo mix of the backing track which did indeed appear on the 2006 anniversary CD single of "Good Vibrations". The backing track appears for a second time on the TSS set. HOWEVER, pay close attention and you'll hear that the drum is missing from the last section of the version on TSS whereas it appears intact on the 2006 release.

The rest of the discussion was based on various YouTube experiments with vocal isolation they've listened to (like we all have) and their feeling that the results are not strong enough to issue an "official" stereo mix of the song.

Oh okay, thanks for clearing that up. I was getting ahead of myself clearly. If they've only been listening to fan made isolations though, and are basing their thoughts on those, they surely aren't as good as could be isolated by the pros who did beatles rockband? I don't know?

[Roger Ryan]

I only listened to this once yesterday, but didn't Mark say he was preparing the stereo track of Good Vibrations for the anniversary release, and then decided to put it on TSS? Then they started talking about hearing isolated elements, (vocals), of the mono track for good vibrations and how they weren't too pleased with the results. Do you think they are/were having a go at doing a full stereo version for the anniversary using this method? If you've heard the beatles rockband multi tracks, then you'll know it can be done VERY well...sometimes. To the degree that you'd never know it was extracted from a mono full mix. Of course some of them aren't as isolated as well.

I'm starting to get excited at the thought of what they may release next year now that smile is in my hands.....

What Mark was talking about was editing the stereo mix of the backing track which did indeed appear on the 2006 anniversary CD single of "Good Vibrations". The backing track appears for a second time on the TSS set. HOWEVER, pay close attention and you'll hear that the drum is missing from the last section of the version on TSS whereas it appears intact on the 2006 release.

The rest of the discussion was based on various YouTube experiments with vocal isolation they've listened to (like we all have) and their feeling that the results are not strong enough to issue an "official" stereo mix of the song.

Oh okay, thanks for clearing that up. I was getting ahead of myself clearly. If they've only been listening to fan made isolations though, and are basing their thoughts on those, they surely aren't as good as could be isolated by the pros who did beatles rockband? I don't know?

Right, but Mark and Alan aren't putting together a BEACH BOYS ROCK BAND game (that would be kind of cool though!) which requires that kind of manipulation in order to make the gameplay practical. I believe they could have some success in isolating the vocals (and at least one of those YouTube versions is superb), but there was no real reason to attempt this. The mono mix is the official track; anything else is just a little diversion and they had already provided two or three of those little "Good Vibrations" diversions on TSS.

[adam78]

Yeah true. My point though isn't why you would extract parts, e.g. the rockband example, merely the point that it can be done. I don't know if you have heard the isolated multi tracks of rockband but truly, the parts extracted are nothing short of a miracle in some cases. No hint of any additional sound bar the instrument they worked on. I don't expect Linnett to do this. It's like a science rather than production ability and it would have to be done out of house.

Now given the significance of GV and that a true stereo mix of this song is possibly the most sought after artifact to many people, and we know that'll never happen from the tapes, surely it's worth having a go?

You're right about one on youtube. Some guy has done a pretty decent home job of separating the vocals using the said process but as he says also, he's no pro and wishes someone else would do it right!

I still remember years and years ago my dad, who's no massive beach boys fan, saying what a shame there was never stereo version of Good Vibrations! Then I got into the Beach Boys and boy was he right!

[runnersdialzero]

Yeah true. My point though isn't why you would extract parts, e.g. the rockband example, merely the point that it can be done.

Sometimes, and not always well. I'll also say there's a difference between making something "work" for a video game and making a presentable product for a non-amateur, officially released track.

[Austin]

It's also worth pointing out that, whether they realize it or not, most fans have different standards for fan mixes and officially-released mixes. The one that I put on YouTube -- which I think is what some people here are referring to -- is pretty good for a fan mix, but were I in Mark and Alan's shoes, I would never approve it.

Although I'd love to hear them do an attempt, I really respect the fact that they're not just running out and capitalizing on the technology, and there are definitely producers out there who would not have that kind of restraint.

[Roger Ryan]

Yes, Austin's mix was the one I was referring to. It's a great job, but it is hard to justify that much manipulation to create an official product; if it was just one line (like what happened with the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" stereo mix) or maybe one section, I bet it would be done, but not having to isolate the entire vocal track.

[Tristero]

For me, the bigger point is that I would like to be able to get a full stereo version of SMiLE now.  Most of these tracks should be doable in stereo or have already been mixed that way, but there are a few hold outs, including GV, maybe OMP/YAMS and maybe Child.  Are there any others?  In some cases, you might be able to draft in alternate versions, like the instrumental take on GV.  If worse came to worse, I suppose you could resort to mono in a few cases.

[runnersdialzero]

For me, the bigger point is that I would like to be able to get a full stereo version of SMiLE now.  Most of these tracks should be doable in stereo or have already been mixed that way, but there are a few hold outs, including GV, maybe OMP/YAMS and maybe Child.  Are there any others?  In some cases, you might be able to draft in alternate versions, like the instrumental take on GV.  If worse came to worse, I suppose you could resort to mono in a few cases.

My own mix uses mostly stereo with a few tracks in mono due to believing stuff like "Good Vibrations" should be approached with a "leave well enough alone" approach. In the past, some stuff was only available in stereo in incomplete form, but I don't think this is really the case anymore.

I don't know, I don't get either the "everything must be in stereo, even if it results in inferior quality" or "everything must be folded down to mono, even if it results in inferior quality" camps. Two or three mono tracks in your Smile mix won't kill you, and any sane set of ears would adjust in a couple seconds at the absolute most, I'd think.

[Tristero]

My own mix uses mostly stereo with a few tracks in mono due to believing stuff like "Good Vibrations" should be approached with a "leave well enough alone" approach. In the past, some stuff was only available in stereo in incomplete form, but I don't think this is really the case anymore.

Yeah, I really like what they've done with OMP/YAMS/Barnshine now too, so I'd probably want to just leave that one in mono too.

[adam78]

Yeah true. My point though isn't why you would extract parts, e.g. the rockband example, merely the point that it can be done.

Sometimes, and not always well. I'll also say there's a difference between making something "work" for a video game and making a presentable product for a non-amateur, officially released track.

Yes true, which I did say so myself, but then I would ask the question again, have you heard some of the multi tracks for beatles rockband? When you hear them isolated, knowing where they orginated from, they sound simply perfect. Like it was recorded solo in isloation. Again, it can't always be done to perfection, but, it can be done to perfection in certain cases. Which begs the original question, why not try? Sure, if it doesn't work, don't release a vocal that sounds like it was sung through a toilet roll into a megaphone, but surely worth a try. That's all I'd say.

[monicker]

The rest of the discussion was based on various YouTube experiments with vocal isolation they've listened to (like we all have) and their feeling that the results are not strong enough to issue an "official" stereo mix of the song.

Yes, Austin's mix was the one I was referring to. It's a great job, but it is hard to justify that much manipulation to create an official product; if it was just one line (like what happened with the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" stereo mix) or maybe one section, I bet it would be done, but not having to isolate the entire vocal track.

I still don't see how these sort of arguments are flying when you have pitch shifted vocals on Look, whispering winds, and Dada that hardly even resemble the voices of the Beach Boys. These sort of arguments need to stop being made because, based on certain things they DID do for an official release, you can poke holes in this reasoning the size of the box set itself. And to the argument that flying in pitch shifted vocals was the only option in those few spots...erm, there's also the option to not do that. I can totally understand trying it out and trying to make it work, but once those results were what came out, i can't comprehend how anyone was okay with it and deemed it usable.

I don't know, I don't get either the "everything must be in stereo, even if it results in inferior quality" or "everything must be folded down to mono, even if it results in inferior quality" camps. Two or three mono tracks in your Smile mix won't kill you, and any sane set of ears would adjust in a couple seconds at the absolute most, I'd think.

I also don't get the everything has to be either all mono or all stereo. It really doesn't.

[hypehat]

Yeah true. My point though isn't why you would extract parts, e.g. the rockband example, merely the point that it can be done.

Sometimes, and not always well. I'll also say there's a difference between making something "work" for a video game and making a presentable product for a non-amateur, officially released track.

Yes true, which I did say so myself, but then I would ask the question again, have you heard some of the multi tracks for beatles rockband? When you hear them isolated, knowing where they orginated from, they sound simply perfect. Like it was recorded solo in isloation. Again, it can't always be done to perfection, but, it can be done to perfection in certain cases. Which begs the original question, why not try? Sure, if it doesn't work, don't release a vocal that sounds like it was sung through a toilet roll into a megaphone, but surely worth a try. That's all I'd say.

Yeah, but with the Beatles rockband, all the multi-tracks exist. Nothings missing. You just have to divvy up the four tracks, and if you're unlucky, apply frequency extraction to one or two elements bounced down.

With the vocals for Good Vibrations, you're talking about extracting doubled, intricate, multilayered harmonies that are mixed quite close to the track, as that's the only place they exist. They only exist on the single master.

[runnersdialzero]

With the vocals for Good Vibrations, you're talking about extracting doubled, intricate, multilayered harmonies that are mixed quite close to the track, as that's the only place they exist. They only exist on the single master.

Eggsactly <3

[adam78]

Yeah true. My point though isn't why you would extract parts, e.g. the rockband example, merely the point that it can be done.

Sometimes, and not always well. I'll also say there's a difference between making something "work" for a video game and making a presentable product for a non-amateur, officially released track.

Yes true, which I did say so myself, but then I would ask the question again, have you heard some of the multi tracks for beatles rockband? When you hear them isolated, knowing where they orginated from, they sound simply perfect. Like it was recorded solo in isloation. Again, it can't always be done to perfection, but, it can be done to perfection in certain cases. Which begs the original question, why not try? Sure, if it doesn't work, don't release a vocal that sounds like it was sung through a toilet roll into a megaphone, but surely worth a try. That's all I'd say.

Yeah, but with the Beatles rockband, all the multi-tracks exist. Nothings missing. You just have to divvy up the four tracks, and if you're unlucky, apply frequency extraction to one or two elements bounced down.

With the vocals for Good Vibrations, you're talking about extracting doubled, intricate, multilayered harmonies that are mixed quite close to the track, as that's the only place they exist. They only exist on the single master.

Totally true. Although if you've heard the full mono's that they did extract, they sound pretty good isolated, and the moment you put them back into a mix, the partial artefacts left behind virtually disappear.

And the fact that some Joe public extracted truck drivin man!!! That's gotta blow the arguement wide open again? Most people could never even hear that under layers and layers and layers of music and vocals yet someone got it. Imagine with a bit more time and professionalism. Again, someone HAS managed to isolate the GV vocals already. Just not a pro.

[Austin]

Something worth keeping in mind: this is not a black-and-white scenario, where one good extraction means anything can automatically be done. Every extraction depends on many factors: the quality of the source material, the software used, the amount of time and money the controlling forces are willing to put into it, and the judgment and taste of the engineer(s).

I'm not saying it won't ever happen, but really: flying in some stems or extracting the lead vocal from Barnyard are easier tasks than Good Vibrations by an order of magnitude.

[adam78]

Something worth keeping in mind: this is not a black-and-white scenario, where one good extraction means anything can automatically be done. Every extraction depends on many factors: the quality of the source material, the software used, the amount of time and money the controlling forces are willing to put into it, and the judgment and taste of the engineer(s).

I'm not saying it won't ever happen, but really: flying in some stems or extracting the lead vocal from Barnyard are easier tasks than Good Vibrations by an order of magnitude.

Yep. Agree 100%.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Also, remember that what's acceptable for someone working in their study on something to upload on youtube would almost certainly be totally unacceptable to a pro engineer trying to produce something acceptable to their ears for official release on a prestige project that will bear their name. Just look at the sh*t that (unfairly) headed Mark's way over the "Humble Harv" flyins. Then multiply that by, oh, let's say 1000% when a "GV"  'stereo' vocal isolation is used: you wouldn't be able to move for the "This guy's done it better, can't understand why this was released". Believe.

[adam78]

Also, remember that what's acceptable for someone working in their study on something to upload on youtube would almost certainly be totally unacceptable to a pro engineer trying to produce something acceptable to their ears for official release on a prestige project that will bear their name. Just look at the sh*t that (unfairly) headed Mark's way over the "Humble Harv" flyins. Then multiply that by, oh, let's say 1000% when a "GV"  'stereo' vocal isolation is used: you wouldn't be able to move for the "This guy's done it better, can't understand why this was released". Believe.

Yes. Very true too.

I think it stems from my personal desire for someone who knows what they're doing to have a go at it full tilt. I'm actually very realistic about the possible results being unusable for an official release, and certainly, after reading some comments on this board about barnyard/great shape, every single person would have a different view on whether it worked, sounded good, sounded sacrilegious etc. So I'm defintely not in the camp of, it can definitely be done and should definitely be done. I personally would love to hear it attempted. And maybe the guy on youtube is the best we'll get?

[hypehat]

Totally true. Although if you've heard the full mono's that they did extract, they sound pretty good isolated, and the moment you put them back into a mix, the partial artefacts left behind virtually disappear.

And the fact that some Joe public extracted truck drivin man!!! That's gotta blow the arguement wide open again? Most people could never even hear that under layers and layers and layers of music and vocals yet someone got it. Imagine with a bit more time and professionalism. Again, someone HAS managed to isolate the GV vocals already. Just not a pro.

Cabin Essence does exist in acapella form on certain bootlegs.

It's really a question of quality - i've been impressed by some of the 'stereo' Good Vibrations I've heard, but I'd be a little miffed if they popped up on an official release.

[monicker]

I highly suspect there's a lot of self-deception going on. The officiality of a product, it being, by nature, available to purchase in stores with a Capitol logo, bearing the names of professionals, plays psychological games with many. I'd be willing to bet that if that 'stereo' GV on youtube had first been revealed to the public with a Linett credit, people would be jumping for joy, and conversely, had the fly-ins (forget getting into all the "technical" stuff) from the Capitol CD been attributed to a fan on youtube, the reaction would most likely mirror the most recent responses in this thread, i.e. "pretty good but not good enough for a professional official product." Don't be taken and influenced entirely by the fidelity of the sources used; listen to the work.