Brian's Most Complex Composition?

[hypehat]

I Just Wasn't Made For These Times is pretty out-there, a good shout.

Even his simple songs have insane arrangements going on - Something like Cool Cool Water, with all those interlocking harmonies, although the chord structure isn't so weird (still is a little)

How could I forget about The Girls On the Beach? Also mental but you really wouldn't know!


Man, I love his chords. Bacharach is the only dude who comes close, imo

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Goin On is pretty damn complex! It just keeps going up and up in awesomeness with all sorts of killer twists n turns!

My number 2 all time fave Beach Boys song.

[pobbard]

Since I doubt anyone else will nominate it... "Rio Grande". If not his most complex BBs composition, probably his most complex solo composition.

[Bill Tobelman]

"This Whole World" almost sounds like it was written to see how much stuff you could cram into one song.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Harmonically, my uninformed vote would be for "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times."  I say uninformed because I've never learned it myself, but I have learned, by ear, some pretty complex Beach Boys songs.  Having said that, I once had a gander at the chords, being played and scored, and they scared the crap out of me. 

That surprises me, that you've never learned it!

And I think that's it, too.  IJWMFTT.

But really, and I don't expect anybody to pay attention to this, we have to define what complex means or the conversation is meaningless. 

Complexity goes beyond things like key changes.  And many of you are mistaking non-diatonic chord patterns as key changes, anyway.  For instance, Wonderful doesn't change keys.  That's not to say it's not good, exotic stuff, it most certainly is--but key changes alone don't make something complex.  Anybody can do one.  Play a C chord for 3 minutes straight and then play a C-sharp chord for 2.  You've changed keys, but nothing could be further from complex.

Complexity comes from the whole package.  Melody, Harmony, Rhythm, Counterpoint, arrangements, etc.  Complexity flows out of a command of all these things and more.  It springs not from genius but from craftsmanship.  A Bach or Handel fugue is complex--but it comes out of hard work.  Isolate the motive of a great fugue, and it's actually pretty simple, usually.  It has to be.  But then you start applying techniques to the motive, you add the responses, and slowly, a complex piece of music is erected, much like a work of carpentry.

So in my opinion, we can't look at isolated elements.  Who cares if there's a diminished chord or two?  Who cares if there's a key change?  Who cares if there's long sequence?  The song has to be looked at in toto.

So here's my analysis of IJWMFTT and why I think it's "the most complex."

1.  Melody:  The melody is pretty chromatic, but more importantly, if you think about it as a graph, it's pretty amazing how Brian manages to draw a series of ascending arcs leading to a very natural climax and denouement.  The melody is almost pure jazz, and could be fitted over all kinds of different chord changes, I think.

2.  Harmony:  As Adam says, the chords are very tricky and as I mentioned just above, they are not especially congenial to the melody.  The inversions of the chords shift from 3rd to 2nd to 1st, which makes it hard to tell the central tonality of the piece.

3.  Arrangement:  In my view, Brian's best, and heaviest arrangement.  The descending tympani, Basses, and Bass Harmonica pose as a strange synth bass patch.  The harpsichord and piano play that distinctive figure which I would love to have witnessed Brian teaching or collaborating with Mike and Don.

4.  Rhythm:  Not much way out there going on here, but the temple blocks are on a somewhat unexpected beat pattern.

Now, even after describing all that, I still feel unsatisfied that I adequately described everything, and I'm not sure that I can explain the synthesis of these parts that actually adds up to the complexity.  Perhaps some sort of Webisode is in order...

[DonnyL]

yeh, right on ...

anyone can make something simple seem complex, but it takes genius to make something complex seem simple (i.e., translate easily to others).

My votes:

1 - I Just Wasn't Made for These Times
2 - This Whole World
3 - In The Back of My Mind
4 - I Get Around

It's hard for me to separate composition from production and arrangement with Brian's songs because the overall sound shaping is a big part of the end result.

[Mikie]

Josh, your post was too complex!  Let's keep it simple, eh?

Just so happens I was listening to the "I Get Around" instrumental track tonight.  For the life of me, I can't figure out how that instrumental track became the background for the melody and vocals recorded over it and how it fit so well. Not just the background parts, but especially Mike's lead and Brian's falsetto part. Just one self-contained tight package. How Brian heard all of that (and many other songs) in his head is really mind blowing to say the least.

Reminds me of when, at Brian's insistence, Carl played that fuzzy lead on Little Honda and said it sounded like crap and resisted playing it, but after he heard the playback, it sounded good. Or one other instance (I'm sure there were many) when a member of the Wrecking Crew said that something wouldn't work (chord change or whatever it was) and it ended up fitting into the song and sounded great and the guy was staggered by it.

[Austin]

4.  Rhythm:  Not much way out there going on here, but the temple blocks are on a somewhat unexpected beat pattern.

I always thought it was interesting how the bass, not the percussion, drives the track in the verses. That's pretty jazzy too, no?

Maybe it's just me, but I think the fact that the main driving force shifts from bass to drums to temple blocks to back to drums is pretty neat.

[Ron]

Someone mentioned Midnight's Another Day as a modern example, my favorite modern one for complexity's sake is "What I Really Want for Christmas".  That song is crazy.  If you haven't listened to it with 'those' ears on, check it out.  He's all over the place.  He sings some of it with just his lead.   Some with a double tracked lead.  Some with full backing vocals.  Some acapella.  Some parts have just piano.  Some parts have the full treatment.... there doesn't really seem to be a pattern to it either, it's just brilliant. 


.... and of course it's just a christmas song, too, so it'll never get much respect but it's very, very well done production wise in my opinion. 

[Ron]

Or one other instance (I'm sure there were many) when a member of the Wrecking Crew said that something wouldn't work (chord change or whatever it was) and it ended up fitting into the song and sounding great and the guy was staggered by it.

Not sure if that's from Dance Dance Dance, but that always blew my mind.  He changes the key right in the middle of the fucking verse in a rock song.  BALLS.  Brian Wilson has Balls.  He has this incredible way of somehow doing anything he wants in the studio, with no regard to what is supposed to work and what isn't.... but yet he still keeps it commercially viable.  I mean the world is full of musicians who are creative, but very few can be creative, AND keep it commercial.

[anazgnos]

Or one other instance (I'm sure there were many) when a member of the Wrecking Crew said that something wouldn't work (chord change or whatever it was) and it ended up fitting into the song and sounding great and the guy was staggered by it.

Not sure if that's from Dance Dance Dance, but that always blew my mind.  He changes the key right in the middle of the friging verse in a rock song.  BALLS.  Brian Wilson has Balls.  He has this incredible way of somehow doing anything he wants in the studio, with no regard to what is supposed to work and what isn't.... but yet he still keeps it commercially viable.  I mean the world is full of musicians who are creative, but very few can be creative, AND keep it commercial.

Yeah, I had that epiphany with "Dance Dance Dance" just a week or so ago.  It starts with what sounds like it's going to be a totally stock riff, and then he immediately starts running weird permutations on it, and doesn't stop throughout the song.  Every time that riff appears he tweaks it another way, whether major to minor or jumping in key or whatever.  The song is hardly complex, but it's such an awesome snapshot of Brian's skill as it was seriously starting to go into overdrive - the playfulness and the cockiness of it is awesome.

[homeontherange]

yeh, right on ...

anyone can make something simple seem complex, but it takes genius to make something complex seem simple (i.e., translate easily to others).

My votes:

1 - I Just Wasn't Made for These Times
2 - This Whole World
3 - In The Back of My Mind
4 - I Get Around

It's hard for me to separate composition from production and arrangement with Brian's songs because the overall sound shaping is a big part of the end result.

This whole world is the opposite of that. It seems complex because it changes key all the time but it's a very simple song aside from that.

[Jameswilliam]

Lets go away for a while is pretty complex, and of course Surf's up   And also IJWMFTT! c

[The Heartical Don]

Ding Dang

Shortenin' Bread (I know, one Trad Arr (a.k.a. Public Domain) wrote it...)

[tansen]

Kevin Barnes, the king of chord/key changes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPnd3wEF2-w

[Runaways]

and i can hear every change too.

though they've had some "SMiLE" esque moments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D02Dp6D0z1g

[tansen]

and i can hear every change too.

though they've had some "SMiLE" esque moments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D02Dp6D0z1g

Right on!

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Harmonically, my uninformed vote would be for "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times."  I say uninformed because I've never learned it myself, but I have learned, by ear, some pretty complex Beach Boys songs.  Having said that, I once had a gander at the chords, being played and scored, and they scared the crap out of me. 

That surprises me, that you've never learned it!

And I think that's it, too.  IJWMFTT.

But really, and I don't expect anybody to pay attention to this, we have to define what complex means or the conversation is meaningless. 

Complexity goes beyond things like key changes.  And many of you are mistaking non-diatonic chord patterns as key changes, anyway.  For instance, Wonderful doesn't change keys.  That's not to say it's not good, exotic stuff, it most certainly is--but key changes alone don't make something complex.  Anybody can do one.  Play a C chord for 3 minutes straight and then play a C-sharp chord for 2.  You've changed keys, but nothing could be further from complex.

Complexity comes from the whole package.  Melody, Harmony, Rhythm, Counterpoint, arrangements, etc.  Complexity flows out of a command of all these things and more.  It springs not from genius but from craftsmanship.  A Bach or Handel fugue is complex--but it comes out of hard work.  Isolate the motive of a great fugue, and it's actually pretty simple, usually.  It has to be.  But then you start applying techniques to the motive, you add the responses, and slowly, a complex piece of music is erected, much like a work of carpentry.

So in my opinion, we can't look at isolated elements.  Who cares if there's a diminished chord or two?  Who cares if there's a key change?  Who cares if there's long sequence?  The song has to be looked at in toto.

So here's my analysis of IJWMFTT and why I think it's "the most complex."

1.  Melody:  The melody is pretty chromatic, but more importantly, if you think about it as a graph, it's pretty amazing how Brian manages to draw a series of ascending arcs leading to a very natural climax and denouement.  The melody is almost pure jazz, and could be fitted over all kinds of different chord changes, I think.

2.  Harmony:  As Adam says, the chords are very tricky and as I mentioned just above, they are not especially congenial to the melody.  The inversions of the chords shift from 3rd to 2nd to 1st, which makes it hard to tell the central tonality of the piece.

3.  Arrangement:  In my view, Brian's best, and heaviest arrangement.  The descending tympani, Basses, and Bass Harmonica pose as a strange synth bass patch.  The harpsichord and piano play that distinctive figure which I would love to have witnessed Brian teaching or collaborating with Mike and Don.

4.  Rhythm:  Not much way out there going on here, but the temple blocks are on a somewhat unexpected beat pattern.

Now, even after describing all that, I still feel unsatisfied that I adequately described everything, and I'm not sure that I can explain the synthesis of these parts that actually adds up to the complexity.  Perhaps some sort of Webisode is in order...

Yes, but structurally it's very simple, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, instrumental break, fade.

I would say it's definitely the most complex thing on Pet Sounds though.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Yes, but structurally it's very simple, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, instrumental break, fade.

I would say it's definitely the most complex thing on Pet Sounds though.

That's what pop music is--verses and choruses with the occasional middle-eight.  I could be wrong, but I can't think of a single through-composed Beach Boys song at the moment, can you?  When you leave behind structure, you're often not left with very much.  Great symphonies and sonatas follow tight structural rules that are predictable.  Even Wagner's operas, which are probably the longest single through composed works in existence, refer back to previous melodies, quote the leitmotivs, etc, etc.  Simple structure is almost necessary upon which to build complexity.

[D Cunningham]

Speaking of Let's Go Away For Awhile...is anybody else like me...totally enamored of the no-strings track
from the Boxed Set?  It's got a fantastic less-is-more quality.  Then the question becomes:  Which is more
complex...with or without strings?

[willy]

Mount Vernon and Fairway.

[cablegeddon]

Yes, but structurally it's very simple, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, instrumental break, fade.

I would say it's definitely the most complex thing on Pet Sounds though.

That's what pop music is--verses and choruses with the occasional middle-eight. 

When I think of Beatles I don't think of verses and choruses, She loves you, Hey Jude etc.....When think of ABBA I think of verses and choruses, Dancing Queen, Waterloo etc......when I think Brian Wilson I don't really know, it's more like verse-> ending of verse ->verse.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Yes, but structurally it's very simple, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, instrumental break, fade.

I would say it's definitely the most complex thing on Pet Sounds though.

That's what pop music is--verses and choruses with the occasional middle-eight.  I could be wrong, but I can't think of a single through-composed Beach Boys song at the moment, can you?  When you leave behind structure, you're often not left with very much.  Great symphonies and sonatas follow tight structural rules that are predictable.  Even Wagner's operas, which are probably the longest single through composed works in existence, refer back to previous melodies, quote the leitmotivs, etc, etc.  Simple structure is almost necessary upon which to build complexity.

I didn't necessarily mean through composed. I just mean the structures got more complex later. I mentioned "When A Man Needs A Woman" earlier. Whilst I don't think it is his most complex composition, it is a good example of how his song-writing  had progressed since Pet Sounds. You have verse / chorus, then an unrelated instrumental section, then another chorus then a very inventive bridge into another unrelated section, then into a second verse which takes the original verse then develops it. Then into the last chorus and coda.

It is so subtle you don't even notice how complex it is. Such an inventive structure and so natural, many composers would struggle to get something so concise yet varied into such a short space. And thinking about it, apart from the choruses, it is pretty much through composed

To me, structure is the most important part of music, as I detailed in the earlier thread and wouldn't want to repeat myself. Suffice to say, structure is what sorts out the masters from the apprentices, and by Friends, this guy had mastered his craft.

I totally agree  that IJWMFTT is a wonderfully complex composition though. When I first heard the backing track I was blown away, and struggled to sing the melody over the top of it. Everything working to serve that melody, yet each line with it's own logic and identity. Use of counterpoint is also the sign of a master.

Good topic guys.

[send me a picture and i'll tell you]

Happy Days.

 

[Wirestone]

The different structures of BW's compositions through the years are fascinating.

There are some chorus - bridge - chorus tunes earlier. This was the format used by the Beatles a lot, and is a common pre-rock structure. Surfer Girl, for example. Verse-chorus-verse was there pretty much from the beginning too.

Eventually, in the 80s and 90s, he began (and continues) to write some very elaborate songs using this structure:

verse - prechorus - chorus - verse - prechorus - chorus - bridge - chorus - tag

You see it in Your Imagination, Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long, Walking the Line, Midnight's Another Day (the bridge is an instrumental break).

This has kind of become his default outline in recent years.