Smile Box set: Ghost melodies, clues, hints, and new mysteries

[TheManchesterMan]

...And speaking of Darian and his access...didn't he say that the melody for "Song for Children" came from a clarinet line he heard bleed through someone's headphones on the original session tapes??? Whatever happened to that, and how did it elude the box? Can anybody hear it???

I don't remember hearing that, although it sounds similar to this from Sound on Sound's article on BWPS:

And while listening to the multitracks for the song 'Child Is Father Of The Man', Darian soloed a chorus lead vocal by Brian's late brother Carl and made discoveries which were later incorporated into the finished arrangements. Mark Linett explains: "When he's not singing, you can hear faint background vocal parts that no longer exist on the multitrack. They must have been in his headphones, and were picked up by the vocal mic. It could be that Brian decided he didn't need them, or that he was going to re-record them, but never did. You hear this sort of stuff throughout the tapes."

Now that would have been something to hear.

[buddhahat]

...And speaking of Darian and his access...didn't he say that the melody for "Song for Children" came from a clarinet line he heard bleed through someone's headphones on the original session tapes??? Whatever happened to that, and how did it elude the box? Can anybody hear it???

I don't remember hearing that, although it sounds similar to this from Sound on Sound's article on BWPS:

And while listening to the multitracks for the song 'Child Is Father Of The Man', Darian soloed a chorus lead vocal by Brian's late brother Carl and made discoveries which were later incorporated into the finished arrangements. Mark Linett explains: "When he's not singing, you can hear faint background vocal parts that no longer exist on the multitrack. They must have been in his headphones, and were picked up by the vocal mic. It could be that Brian decided he didn't need them, or that he was going to re-record them, but never did. You hear this sort of stuff throughout the tapes."

Now that would have been something to hear.

I definitely remember reading in several places about the clarinet line. I'm sure the Priore book mentions it, but I thought there was another interview too. Maybe just the Priore book. It certainly sounds vintage and I'd be stunned to discover it was written in 03/04.

Child Is father Of The Man - fascinating to discover from the sessions for version 1 of Child, that the part that I previously thought was a bridge (the quick tempo bit that goes up and down the scale) was initially the verse part. Anyone else surprised by this information?

[Roger Ryan]

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[TheManchesterMan]

I definitely remember reading in several places about the clarinet line. I'm sure the Priore book mentions it, but I thought there was another interview too. Maybe just the Priore book. It certainly sounds vintage and I'd be stunned to discover it was written in 03/04.

Child Is father Of The Man - fascinating to discover from the sessions for version 1 of Child, that the part that I previously thought was a bridge (the quick tempo bit that goes up and down the scale) was initially the verse part. Anyone else surprised by this information?

Yeah, I'd read it was a vintage part but not that it had only been heard on a bleed-through. A search found this:

From Domenic Priore's Smile book: "I think Look had vocals intended for it, by the way Brian reacted to it and the way he came up with the melody; working on that song was something like the experience I had with Do You Like Worms. When I was able to listen to multitracks of the song, there was bleed through on the tape. That's where I got that clarinet line from, and Brian was quick to sing the melody, based on that clarinet line."

[Cam Mott]

I'd like to lob this perspective into the mix.

Brian is recording a song he recently wrote in this newly discovered fragment. He's trying to line up the tempo of the backing track, and, with Van sitting (presumably) just behind him in the control room, sings that fragment.

If it weren't the melody he'd written for DYLW, why on earth would he have sung it? There really is no reasonable explanation other than That's How It Goes.

With the BWPS version, it seems feasible to me that he remembered some backing vocals. SMiLE contains the most complex backing vocals the BBs ever recorded (hell, that 10-part combined chord and countermelody backing for the H&V verse is possibly the greatest backing vocal arrangement BW ever committed to tape) -- and his writing had a tendency to pile things on top of each other.

If you'd never heard the H&V melody, say, but heard that isolated backing vocal track (as on the original single), you'd be blown away, and would have trouble working out where another mleody could have fitted across it. And a glance at the lyric sheet would have got you nowhere. Likewise, if you'd heard one of the three combined countermelodies of the GOK fade, you'd have had trouble imagining either of the other two, and would have thought the job was a good 'un. Similarly, the GV chorus is made of three stacked melodies: Mike's one, following the bass line, the stacked 'good bup bup', and then the stacked high line. Each would be enough on its own if you didn't know the other two existed.

For my money, this was the melody BW wrote for DYLW, and he had stacks of bvs sloshing around with it. I've always thought, for such a supreme melodist as BW, that the BWPS 'melody' for DYLW/RPR is nothing of the sort -- it's practically static; something quite uncharacteristic for BW, especially at this period in his writing, when his melodies were prone to doing extraordinary things -- big reaches (Surf's Up, Cabinessence), difficult and very satisfying leaps (Wonderful), twists and switchbacks (Heroes And Villains, this DYLW melody, Vega-Tables).

I've often wondered whether BW recorded demos. F*** knows how you memorise Surf's Up or Wonderful without committing to either tape or paper. Astonishing writing.

If only, if only...

I tend to agree and I haven't even heard it. It may not be obvious how it was to work but my donut is on it is not mistaken nor arbitrary.

[TheManchesterMan]

I've had a listen to most of these experiments with the "new" Worms melody and it is wierd (unless I've missed one) that nobody has tried placing them over the part that Brian is pacing when he demonstrates the lines. He sings over the decending line (is it played by Lyle Ritz on the string bass? I cannot check at this moment as I'm using my speakers to play a film for my son) at the end of the "Rock, rock, roll, Plymouth Rock roll over" part. Maybe the verse melody in BWPS was a period melody and this snipet was a vocal that repeated (possibly only some of) the lyrics over that descending bass line just before the chorus.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I've had a listen to most of these experiments with the "new" Worms melody and it is wierd (unless I've missed one) that nobody has tried placing them over the part that Brian is pacing when he demonstrates the lines. He sings over the decending line (is it played by Lyle Ritz on the string bass? I cannot check at this moment as I'm using my speakers to play a film for my son) at the end of the "Rock, rock, roll, Plymouth Rock roll over" part. Maybe the verse melody in BWPS was a period melody and this snipet was a vocal that repeated (possibly only some of) the lyrics over that descending bass line just before the chorus.

 It starts at the same time as the BWPS melody starts. This is obvious from the demonstration. It's been playing in my head constantly for a week now.

[TheManchesterMan]

I've had a listen to most of these experiments with the "new" Worms melody and it is wierd (unless I've missed one) that nobody has tried placing them over the part that Brian is pacing when he demonstrates the lines. He sings over the decending line (is it played by Lyle Ritz on the string bass? I cannot check at this moment as I'm using my speakers to play a film for my son) at the end of the "Rock, rock, roll, Plymouth Rock roll over" part. Maybe the verse melody in BWPS was a period melody and this snipet was a vocal that repeated (possibly only some of) the lyrics over that descending bass line just before the chorus.

 It starts at the same time as the BWPS melody starts. This is obvious from the demonstration. It's been playing in my head constantly for a week now.

I'm not sure. It depends on how it's been edited I suppose but to me you can take it as him following up the previous take by directing Lyle Ritz (who he mentions specifically in the same bit of dialogue) on how to play the part at the end of the section or you can take it as him guiding the whole band on the speed of the whole section from the beginning. Maybe it's due to me repeatedly listening to the preceding take followed by the dialogue while others have been listening to the dialogue followed by the next take. It'd probably shed more light on it if we could hear the whole unedited session.

The descending bassline is the same rhythm as the vocal line on the final take and serves as a counterpoint to it.  

[homeontherange]

Child Is father Of The Man - fascinating to discover from the sessions for version 1 of Child, that the part that I previously thought was a bridge (the quick tempo bit that goes up and down the scale) was initially the verse part. Anyone else surprised by this information?

Nah, you could hear that in the SOT set too. But yes, it's very cool since it doesn't sound like a verse backing track at all. More like an intro. How would you put vocals there?

[buddhahat]

Child Is father Of The Man - fascinating to discover from the sessions for version 1 of Child, that the part that I previously thought was a bridge (the quick tempo bit that goes up and down the scale) was initially the verse part. Anyone else surprised by this information?

Nah, you could hear that in the SOT set too. But yes, it's very cool since it doesn't sound like a verse backing track at all. More like an intro. How would you put vocals there?

Didn't realise that session is on sot.

Yeah that was my thought - how would vocals fit? Also makes you wonder if there were ever verse vocals given that the verse clearly changed so dramatically between these two sessions. Maybe all it ever was was a feel that brian intended to put words to but never got round to it.

[homeontherange]

Child Is father Of The Man - fascinating to discover from the sessions for version 1 of Child, that the part that I previously thought was a bridge (the quick tempo bit that goes up and down the scale) was initially the verse part. Anyone else surprised by this information?

Nah, you could hear that in the SOT set too. But yes, it's very cool since it doesn't sound like a verse backing track at all. More like an intro. How would you put vocals there?

Didn't realise that session is on sot.

Yeah that was my thought - how would vocals fit? Also makes you wonder if there were ever verse vocals given that the verse clearly changed so dramatically between these two sessions. Maybe all it ever was was a feel that brian intended to put words to but never got round to it.

That would have to be some really complex vocal melody. I think he probably had one, cause I don't think he ever composed the vocals after recording the backing track? I've always had the impression that he sat down at the piano, playing different chords and rhythms ("feels") until he found a nice progression, and then came up with a melody.

[mammy blue]

 It starts at the same time as the BWPS melody starts. This is obvious from the demonstration. It's been playing in my head constantly for a week now.

Are you saying that you think it starts after the first measure? Boom Boom a Boom Boom - Once upon the sandwich etc

I thought that initially, but most people seem to think it starts right on the first beat. Just wondering.

[tansen]

It's quite likely that the lyrics are gibberish, but the melodyline is valid. As a songwriter, it's no uncommon to come up with the melodyline without lyrics first. So in a tracking session you might sing nonsense lyrics to give the musicians an idea of where you want to go with the song. Most of the time when I record early demos, I sing gibberish lyrics just to have something to fill the melodyline with.

[LeeDempsey]

It's quite likely that the lyrics are gibberish, but the melodyline is valid. As a songwriter, it's no uncommon to come up with the melodyline without lyrics first. So in a tracking session you might sing nonsense lyrics to give the musicians an idea of where you want to go with the song. Most of the time when I record early demos, I sing gibberish lyrics just to have something to fill the melodyline with.

But in this case what Brian is singing were Van Dyke's original lyrics, as given to Frank Holmes in order to create his drawings:

Once upon the Sandwich Isles
The social structure steamed upon Hawaii;
Rock, Rock, Roll, Plymouth Rock Roll Over;
Ribbon of concrete, see what you done done
to the church of the American Indian.

Lee

[tansen]

It's quite likely that the lyrics are gibberish, but the melodyline is valid. As a songwriter, it's no uncommon to come up with the melodyline without lyrics first. So in a tracking session you might sing nonsense lyrics to give the musicians an idea of where you want to go with the song. Most of the time when I record early demos, I sing gibberish lyrics just to have something to fill the melodyline with.

But in this case what Brian is singing were Van Dyke's lyrics, as given to Frank Holmes in order to create his drawings:

Once upon the Sandwich Isles
The social structure steamed upon Hawaii;
Rock, Rock, Roll, Plymouth Rock Roll Over;
Ribbon of concrete, see what you done done
to the church of the American Indian.

Lee

Ah, did not know that. In that case it is quite obvious that this is indeed the melody line and lyrics he intended for DYLW.

[LeeDempsey]

One more clue -- if you'll look at Frank's drawing for "Do You Like Worms" in the SMiLE booklet, you'll see images of slices of bread -- representing the "Sandwich Isles."

Lee

[Runaways]

heroes and villains part 2 from disc 2 suure is pretty.  i wonder where that woulda fit

[The Demon]

Child Is father Of The Man - fascinating to discover from the sessions for version 1 of Child, that the part that I previously thought was a bridge (the quick tempo bit that goes up and down the scale) was initially the verse part. Anyone else surprised by this information?

Nah, you could hear that in the SOT set too. But yes, it's very cool since it doesn't sound like a verse backing track at all. More like an intro. How would you put vocals there?

Didn't realise that session is on sot.

Yeah that was my thought - how would vocals fit? Also makes you wonder if there were ever verse vocals given that the verse clearly changed so dramatically between these two sessions. Maybe all it ever was was a feel that brian intended to put words to but never got round to it.

That would have to be some really complex vocal melody. I think he probably had one, cause I don't think he ever composed the vocals after recording the backing track? I've always had the impression that he sat down at the piano, playing different chords and rhythms ("feels") until he found a nice progression, and then came up with a melody.

I've always wondered if "Little Bird" was in any way an indication to what a more complete "Child" would sound like, vocally.  I think, at best, any vocal hints of "Child" in "Little Bird" are probably very simplified, not unlike Brian's half-remembered melody lines for BWPS (i.e. the verse to "Worms").  I could see Dennis' lead in "Little Bird" being close to a possible "Child" lead, but I imagine Brian's version would have had much more going on in terms of backing vocals.

Somewhat related, I've always wondered how Carl knew to sing "Cabin Essence."  Brian had nothing to do with assembling it for 20/20, right?  Was Carl meant to sing this in 66?  I feel like Brian's voice would suit it more, but always wondered.

[egon spengler]

i've got two issues with the DYLW ghost melody being the "real" one.

1) it doesn't fit with the rest of the "feel" of the recorded vocals in the song.  both the "rock rock roll" and "bicycle rider" parts are two-part droning harmonies without much in the way of melodic acrobatics. the BWPS verse melody, while not as interesting and "surfer moon"-ish as this ghost melody, is consistent with the rest of the recorded vocals for the song.
2) if Brian knew that the ghost melody was what he wanted for the verse before even recording the backing track, why didn't he lay down those vocals way back when? the fact that they recorded the "la la la la" background vocals over the verse, AND recorded lyrics over the "rock rock roll" part (which is on the same reel of tape as the rest of the verse), but never recorded the "once upon the sandwich isles" lines, suggests that he hadn't settled on that particular melody yet.

perhaps he first came up with all the melodies (including the "ghost melody"), recorded the track, decided that the ghost melody didn't fit (but the rest did), recorded everything else, then came up with the BWPS melody before having a chance to lay it down. (of course, this doesn't explain why they didn't lay down the "ribbon of concrete" line at the same time as the "bicycle rider" line, but that's a question for another day.)

[Chocolate Shake Man]

i've got two issues with the DYLW ghost melody being the "real" one.

1) it doesn't fit with the rest of the "feel" of the recorded vocals in the song.  both the "rock rock roll" and "bicycle rider" parts are two-part droning harmonies without much in the way of melodic acrobatics. the BWPS verse melody, while not as interesting and "surfer moon"-ish as this ghost melody, is consistent with the rest of the recorded vocals for the song.

To me, that is all the more reason to suggest that this melody was the melody - it contrasts and therefore is more in line with the Smile aesthetic. So, for example, the last two sections of Cabin Essence has the repeating line "Who ran the iron horse? Who ran the iron horse?" and "Have you seen the grand coulee working on the rail road?" "Over and over..." but that doesn't suggest that the "Home on the Range section" would have repetition like that.

2) if Brian knew that the ghost melody was what he wanted for the verse before even recording the backing track, why didn't he lay down those vocals way back when? the fact that they recorded the "la la la la" background vocals over the verse, AND recorded lyrics over the "rock rock roll" part (which is on the same reel of tape as the rest of the verse), but never recorded the "once upon the sandwich isles" lines, suggests that he hadn't settled on that particular melody yet.

To use the same example as above, why did he record the backing vocals to Cabin Essence and not the main vocal? If he knew the melody to Surf's Up (which he obviously did), why didn't he lay down those vocals? Why are there only backing vocals on Barnyard when there was a pretty obvious lead. To me, this point really doesn't take into account Brian's recording methods in late 1966.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

I've always wondered if "Little Bird" was in any way an indication to what a more complete "Child" would sound like, vocally.  I think, at best, any vocal hints of "Child" in "Little Bird" are probably very simplified, not unlike Brian's half-remembered melody lines for BWPS (i.e. the verse to "Worms").  I could see Dennis' lead in "Little Bird" being close to a possible "Child" lead, but I imagine Brian's version would have had much more going on in terms of backing vocals.

I addition to the tag, I always felt the verses of "Little Bird" resembled "Surf's Up", more than a little. Listen to the baseline. It's a very similar arrangement.

[The Demon]

I've always wondered if "Little Bird" was in any way an indication to what a more complete "Child" would sound like, vocally.  I think, at best, any vocal hints of "Child" in "Little Bird" are probably very simplified, not unlike Brian's half-remembered melody lines for BWPS (i.e. the verse to "Worms").  I could see Dennis' lead in "Little Bird" being close to a possible "Child" lead, but I imagine Brian's version would have had much more going on in terms of backing vocals.

I addition to the tag, I always felt the verses of "Little Bird" resembled "Surf's Up", more than a little. Listen to the baseline. It's a very similar arrangement.

You're right.  They have a similar steadiness, part of the difference coming from "Surf's Up" having more syllables.  But they're similar, good call.

[Runaways]

doesn't it for a millisecond sound like the organ is playing the BWPS in blue hawaii main melody at :33 on love to say dada part 2?  i'm sure i'm just filling in the meldoy, but i found that interesting.

[doinnothin]

Posted this in the DYLW Thread of Smile Sessions Box forum but figured it warranted posting here too:

I think the new melody is actually something we've heard before.
Vigotone 110/111: Disc 1 Track 25 0:26.

That vocal appears to be missing along with some others towards the end. Wonder what happened.

Thoughts?

[Ebb and Flow]

Posted this in the DYLW Thread of Smile Sessions Box forum but figured it warranted posting here too:

I think the new melody is actually something we've heard before.
Vigotone 110/111: Disc 1 Track 25 0:26.

That vocal appears to be missing along with some others towards the end. Wonder what happened.

Thoughts?

That's a cover by Ant Bee from the 80's.