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Author Topic: SMiLE release thoughts from a returnee and some questions for the scholars  (Read 76004 times)
LostArt
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« Reply #300 on: March 22, 2011, 03:56:49 AM »

Everyone, check out this image: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=6358897&postcount=35

The poster claims that these are real. Enjoy!

Mike Love would have had something to say about not being given a credit on Good Vibrations.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 03:58:28 AM by LostArt » Logged
Roger Ryan
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« Reply #301 on: March 22, 2011, 05:58:15 AM »

There's no question that "recess" is a play-on-words evoking both a crevice and free-time for children at school. "Chalk and numbers" is there to make sure you don't miss the second meaning.

Perhaps this has been suggested before, but reading the opening line "She belongs there left with her liberty" again, I was struck that perhaps "she" is America. Certainly, Parks is writing about a boy-girl relationship, but maybe he's using that as a metaphor for the loss of innocence in the U.S. The ideal of America, or perhaps freedom itself, is what the boy bumps into. But that freedom becomes mishandled. The "non-believer" represents those who wish to put limits on freedom, political freedom or freedom of expression. But like the idea in "Surf's Up" that the children will triumph over the collapsing traditions of their parents, America will return with her liberty intact if it can rediscover its innocence.

Interesting observation but it doesn't quite ring true with several of the album's thematic concerns. In the words of Van Dyke Parks: "There was an obsession to reject anything that smacked of patriotism." This is certainly the case in several songs that work to undermine traditional American assumptions of manifest destiny. Do You Like Worms? calls attention to the displacement and ultimate destruction of Native American society, while Cabin Essence uncovers (and I use that word on purpose) the repressed history of Asian workers who helped bring white Easterners to the West (or the frontier) to make the fortune that said Asians were themselves kept from having. The lyrics typically challenge the conception of an "American ideal" rather than support it. I think Wonderful does fit in here -- we've been treated to Plymouth Rock, with DYLW? which puts us squarely in the location and time period of the height of New England Puritanism. Indeed, she belongs there, in the Puritan dream of the city upon a hill, treated to liberty, but also repressed sexuality. Again, Parks and Wilson challenge this by having the girl encounter someone who is sexually open. Instead of rejecting her religious beliefs, she simply revises them to account for her new found sexuality.

I think you may be using Parks' quote out of context. My understanding is that he was distressed that all things American were being ridiculed and dismissed as phony patriotism (especially in the way the British rock music invasion had culturally overshadowed American musicians). His lyrical concern for SMiLE was an attempt to present what he perceived as the truth about America, both good and bad. Writing about this was something he thought was so uncool that it would become cool.

I didn't want to politicize my fanciful analysis of "Wonderful", but the "non-believers" could very well be something like the House On Un-American Activities Committee, destroying lives through misguided patriotism. I agree with you that Parks' lyrics are not blindly patriotic, but I believe he was attempting to address a core value that the country was founded on and the ways it had deviated from that value. It's not surprising that only a few years later Parks released an album entitled DISCOVER AMERICA with songs about "G-Man Hoover", FDR and Bing Crosby!
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #302 on: March 22, 2011, 04:21:50 PM »

Quote
I think you may be using Parks' quote out of context. My understanding is that he was distressed that all things American were being ridiculed and dismissed as phony patriotism (especially in the way the British rock music invasion had culturally overshadowed American musicians). His lyrical concern for SMiLE was an attempt to present what he perceived as the truth about America, both good and bad. Writing about this was something he thought was so uncool that it would become cool.

Yes, I would agree with this. Certainly Parks believes it is crucial for Americans to write as Americans. His songs, after all, are riddled with American references and are highly indebted to Poe (he elsewhere described Cabin Essence as Gothic).

Quote
I didn't want to politicize my fanciful analysis of "Wonderful", but the "non-believers" could very well be something like the House On Un-American Activities Committee, destroying lives through misguided patriotism. I agree with you that Parks' lyrics are not blindly patriotic, but I believe he was attempting to address a core value that the country was founded on and the ways it had deviated from that value.

Here's where we might part ways a bit. I think that bringing in the House of Un-American Activities is somewhat of a stretch - there's not much in the song or elsewhere in the album that alludes to this sort of thing. Parks appears to interested in reaching further back in American history to, really, the origins of American mythology.

I think the lyrics of Do You Like Worms unsettles this notion of "core American values" suggesting instead that America was founded on an act of aggression and repression. This, incidentally, runs though a lot of Parks's lyrics. In Song Cycle he has a song where he brings up both Jim Crow laws and the taking of Mexican land in the same song!

To be honest, I think it is impossible to not politicize Parks's lyrics since they demand that kind of reading.

Quote
It's not surprising that only a few years later Parks released an album entitled DISCOVER AMERICA with songs about "G-Man Hoover", FDR and Bing Crosby!

Well, yes, but even in that album, Parks is challenging what we mean when we call ourselves "American". After all, the definition of American, from the point of view of the United States, typically excludes places like Trinidad & Tobago, which play a big role in that album. When Parks says "Discover America" he is calling attention to the imperial practices that are at the very core of "discovery" (Columbus's "discovery" for example, was part of an imperial and consequently exploitative mission) as well as the voices that are typically excluded in the name "America". And it is precisely these excluded voices that he calls our attention to in Smile as well.
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hypehat
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« Reply #303 on: March 22, 2011, 05:06:09 PM »

*Koff* Parks didn't write any of the songs on Discover America. They are calypso tunes originating from Trinidadian musicians (and Lowell George).....
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All roads lead to Kokomo. Exhaustive research in time travel has conclusively proven that there is no alternate universe WITHOUT Kokomo. It would've happened regardless.
What is this "life" thing you speak of ?

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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #304 on: March 22, 2011, 05:08:07 PM »

*Koff* Parks didn't write any of the songs on Discover America. They are calypso tunes originating from Trinidadian musicians (and Lowell George).....

Yes. But that doesn't challenge my point about what the album is doing or what Parks is doing by calling the album containing those songs and the music, "Discover America".
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 05:09:04 PM by rockandroll » Logged
hypehat
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« Reply #305 on: March 22, 2011, 05:17:00 PM »

That is true!  Grin
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Roger Ryan
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« Reply #306 on: March 23, 2011, 06:09:32 AM »

I really think we're generally in agreement here and just getting hung up on semantics. "Core American values" is not a very appealing, or appropriate, term when referencing the SMiLE lyrics (or Parks lyrics in general), but I couldn't think of another way to state it. I'll only suggest that I believe Parks is attempting to comment on the America of 1966 by way of reaching back into history. "Surf's Up", for example, seems to be more "present tense" despite it's historical allusions.
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Julia
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« Reply #307 on: September 20, 2025, 03:06:01 AM »

Wind Chimes is not a song about Wind or Air at all. It has nothing to do with the elements. That connection is just the result of the title. Wind Chimes is about death, it's about how we as a culture are hung up on death, and how we need to let go of our hang ups and flow with life, and recognize the beauty and necessity of death.

I really appreciate your breakdown of WC and say some other posters weren't giving you nearly enough credit. It's interesting to me how people acknowledge the depth of VDP's words (though admittedly WC isn't one of his more complex lyrics, at least at first glance) but then poo-poo in depth analysis. I think you raised a lot of good points and besides the sound texture of WC being so similar to the BWPS second movement, your "song about death" argument was a big factor in making me reconsider it as a Cycle of Life track.

Again personally I'd lean away from the three movements concept.  In my opinion the album in that format was enjoyable to listen to a few times (and was especially enjoyable to hear in concert presented in that context) but soon became a challenge for me to listen to.  It just seemed to elongate the entire album.

Its amazing what editing can do, isn't it? A simple rearrangement of tracks can make the same music sound exhilarating or exhausting. Before I took matters into my own hands and only had an iTunes playlist of SMiLE (in the BWPS playing order) I looked at the play counts one day and realized CE through SU were heard like 5+ times more often than anything else and I thought "why don't I ever listen to MOLC or WC, those are great songs!" and realized "yeah but not back to back and not coming after that awful hump that is BWPS IIGS & VT!"

Now, in a two-movement structure, I still single out CE and CIFOTM for individual listens very often but I also listen to the entire album front to back way more frequently than I used to. That, to me, is the ultimate proof a 2-movement sequence is superior and that BWPS' template doesn't do the material justice. I resent that it's how most newcomers will experience the music because I think they're getting a poor impression. I'll beat this dead horse until the bones break, but the material's reputation is being actively diminished every day that casuals discover SMiLE for the first time, find the TSS Disc 1 assembly on youtube or spotify, and listen to that awful, broken mess of a "reconstruction." If you want to know why SMiLE didn't make more of a splash and start a critical reevaluation for the group, I say look no further than that disastrous decision. (I know it was Brian's call but even geniuses can be wrong sometimes.) It's both sad and validating looking through this thread and seeing how almost nobody wanted things to come out the way they did, but alas...


Thank you, my point exactly. The idea that Brian was tragically lost is a romantic fan-tasy imo. Mainly because Brian documented in some way exactly what each section he recorded was for, in what song, in what place in that song. He did change his mind and would record something new or a replacement and each time it is noted what it was for in what song. He wasn't just casting around recording crap hoping he found a place for it. Anyways, it was exactly the way he did GV, noting what each recording was for and where it fit in the song.

Calm down Cam. Well, you know.....it just...... Go lay down, pard.

I both agree and disagree. I think the "there was no plan! / Brian was crazy / he never knew what he wanted to do!" talking points are overstated but not totally made up either. He definitely changed his mind a lot as we can see by the number of tracks remade several times HOWEVER they weren't pointless revisions as some claim either:

1) WC version 1 I think was abandoned when it didn't satisfy Brian's bisociative/pictorial arrangement MO during the SMiLE sessions. Version 2's marimbas (and piano fade) sound more like actual wind chimes.

2) Heroes...well, Heroes was Heroes. Obviously it cannibalized other songs' best moments to try to make it better as a single.

3) I suspect Version 2 Wonderful was meant to sound more like a cantina song than Version 1's music box sound texture. I think it was meant to be like the song Margarita would dance to, and be the B-side of Heroes, so the two tracks were meant to be thematically linked in that way. I'm guessing Version 3's piano sound paired with Veggies was a similar idea.

4) CIFOTM is also, I think, a case where the first Version wasn't bisociative/pictorial enough, while the second with the bass and horn parts sound more like a baby crying and heartbeat.

5) Veggies too, went from basically an extended verse to a full-blown song as it was selected for a single.

^With this in mind, suddenly Brian's revisiting previously recorded songs makes a bit more sense. Still arguably wasteful, but purposeful. As far as the album sequence as a whole, same thing. We have accounts of him demoing some sequences to people, they tell him it's perfect, he changes it the next time and they say that's perfect too, and he couldn't settle on one for good. Without knowing what specific medleys anyone heard I can't comment directly. But some seemingly contradictory clues I think are easy to explain if people aren't being obstinate about it. The best example I can think of is...

We know at the time it was recorded, Prayer was "intro to the album" and that's September. But then people point out the contradiction of Vosse describing something like Prayer coming after SU at the very end. And some argue "Prayer is in the right key for Worms/GV but not Heroes" which is most commonly placed as the first proper track. Well, in December, when Brian would've been informed there needed to be another single besides Vibes (when previously he'd intended no additional singles,) we get You're Welcome. YW, in the key of Heroes and the timeline matches up for when that song would almost certainly now lead off a side. So, Vosse was describing Prayer as it existed later in the sessions, and the cut that fades in...fades into the album (doesn't that make so much more sense than using it as an outro??). It all fits, it's just people take disparate pieces of half-understood info and you get a seeming contradiction and/or a musically awkward sequence. (I never liked Prayer into Heroes, or YW as an outro, these decisions always sounded forced as hell to me. I maintain that if people weren't bowing to convention, no one would organically sequence things the way they're done on most fanmixes and boots.)

^So that's another case where a little research and common sense can connect all the dots in a very plausible way if people would just take the time and step outside the established traditions. But for some, it's easier to default to "there was no plan! / the plan changed every day!" as an excuse not to think, or to dismiss any attempt at reconstruction that isn't BWPS. There was at least a general idea of what the album was, especially by Nov I say, even if Brian didn't dot all the i's, cross all the t's and was want to change his mind every so often. Things shifted over time but not so frequently nor so haphazardly that we can't piece together some of his conceptions with a little educated guesswork and well-reasoned conjecture. I've always thought that during the Oct-Dec period, there was absolutely ~35 minutes worth of interconnected brilliant music floating around in Brian's head (probably everything sans the other elements) he just couldn't get it down in time before shifting focus and once the search for the single was done he'd lost interest and lost heart.

Im also increasingly convinced that a lot of the confusion and "contradictions" that keep us from locking down a more accurate understanding of what happened and SMiLE's true form, is mostly due to selfish lying "authorities" like Priore poisoning the well with their unproven (Id argue all but disproven) fan theories and libel passed off as fact. That man, and some others I wont name, have done a ton of damage to SMiLE discourse over the decades and may've cost us our chance at getting definitive answers before it was too late. I'll sing that man's follies till the cows come home.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2025, 03:44:18 AM by Julia » Logged
Zenobi
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« Reply #308 on: September 20, 2025, 06:01:07 AM »

I have to clarify a thing. While I agree that very probably a 1967 SMiLE would not have been structured as a 3-movements cantata, I think that structure in BWPS is GREAT. My issues with BWPS are not about its structure, which I consider the BEST thing about it, but:

1) of course, no Beach Boys voices, including "vintage" Brian
2) the production of the album, too "flat" imho
3) the lack of two of the best moments from the Sessions, i.e. the Vega-Tables tag and the "Barnshine" tag

The 2011 "BWPS-like" reconstruction solves all three problems, so I think it's fabulous, very far from a "mess".

Anyone has the right to dislike or even despise BWPS and the 2011 reconstruction, but I have the right to disagree. STRONGLY disagree.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2025, 06:03:05 AM by Zenobi » Logged

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« Reply #309 on: September 20, 2025, 10:57:05 AM »

I think Vegetables was originally noted as IIGS..?  Didn't Will say that..?  If so the track went from IIGS/Elements/its own song.

Its possible the Vegetables-Elements thing from the booklet referred to one of the spoken pieces and VT would have been in the Elements and also a seperate tune but I think that less likley - or very unlikley.

I don't think Elements was a last minute or throwaway thing at all - we know that Cow and VT were both in at one point and would be replaced + unfinished piano CUT.  We've heard all the chants.  We know brian referred to 'Atlantis' as a Smile cut (even though it isn't).

It just doesn't seem all that mysterious to me.  I think TE would have been quirky and not all that phenomenal - it wasn't an unfinished SU or CE - see what I mean..?
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Julia
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« Reply #310 on: September 20, 2025, 02:10:19 PM »

I think Vegetables was originally noted as IIGS..?  Didn't Will say that..?  If so the track went from IIGS/Elements/its own song.

Its possible the Vegetables-Elements thing from the booklet referred to one of the spoken pieces and VT would have been in the Elements and also a seperate tune but I think that less likley - or very unlikley.

I don't think Elements was a last minute or throwaway thing at all - we know that Cow and VT were both in at one point and would be replaced + unfinished piano CUT.  We've heard all the chants.  We know brian referred to 'Atlantis' as a Smile cut (even though it isn't).

It just doesn't seem all that mysterious to me.  I think TE would have been quirky and not all that phenomenal - it wasn't an unfinished SU or CE - see what I mean..?

I wasnt aware veggies was originally part of iigs but thats a fascinating possibility id love to see that quote. (I can ask Will)

I know ive postulated elements came later in the brainstorming but i never intended that to mean "last minute throwaway." Just that it came later, and its only speculation since it wasnt finished and vdp never talks about it.

I agree elements wouldnt have been a highlight. Ive played around using combinations of Fire, workshop, veggies, water chant, undersea chant, breathing, whispering winds in various orders as a makeshift elements and they all sound spotty at best. Like theyre ok, but not gonna win a grammy or be anyones favorite part. I think theres a reason this song in particular was abandoned. It was a cool idea brian had, he couldn't figure out how to make it work or thought it wasnt worth the effort and moved on. Frankly i think MOLC works better as part of a "fire then rebuilding" medley with iwba/workshop and/or with the Intro than it ever wouldve smash cut into an elements medley
« Last Edit: September 20, 2025, 02:59:26 PM by Julia » Logged
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