Diamond Head....Smile link?

[Andrew G. Doe]

So...TBHWY, this is the first I've heard of "Diamond Head' and "Time To Get Alone" being considered for Smile in '04...source???

I was shown a copy of the tentative possibilities for a live Smile sequence back in 2004. The handwriting wasn't Brian's.

[Smilin Ed H]

What was the "Smile" concept?

Van Dyke and I wanted "Smile" to be a musical tour of America through the eyes of kids—from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head. We wanted to show people how American music had evolved over the years.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html?KEYWORDS=brian+wilson+++smile

[guitarfool2002]

Time To Get Alone and Diamond Head were on the preliminary tracklist for BWPS, was that an aesthetic decision and nothing more? It was confusing to place them in that context and it led to questions of the origins of those pieces of music. Diamond Head...that was a studio "jam session" more or less conceived by Brian and Wrecking Crew musicians who were well versed in Hawaiian music: Lyle Ritz who is a legendary uke player and Al Vescovo who was first call on lap steel in LA. Brian basically turned them loose and recorded it and even credited the guy who made the "ping" noises on a spring reverb unit as a co-writer.

So the genesis of that tune wasn't in Smile, unless we want to lump anything sounding vaguely "Hawaiian" with the Smile concept, and that would be incorrect. I guess that may have been why it was left off BWPS.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

You stated that BWPS was "quite loose" do to Dada. You confused me, maybe still do. How does one song, possibly the very last Smile song, make it loose?

You really want to turn this into a semantics debate? Okay, well, maybe you wouldn't use the word loose but in the context of my post, it seemed appropriate. It's not just loose because Dada. It's also loose because they used mostly the Smiley version of Heroes and Villains, the demo lyrics of Good Vibrations, other bits seemingly from the Smiley era like Whispering Winds (though I'm not too sure, but it certainly seems a part of SS since it's on the album), and the inclusion of pieces that probably wouldn't have ended up on the album had it been released in Jan. 67 (Holidays, Look, and certainly Dada). Had it been Brian Wilson Presents the long lost Pet Sounds, Trombone Dixie would have surely ended up on the list, with new lyrics from Tony Asher.

And because many posters here are very quick to assume that someone is being critical of BWPS when they are not, let me say that I love the live performance, love the album, love the choices that they made, love the songs they included, love the order of the songs - wouldn't want it any other way.

Also, if Brian was going to use TTGA and Diamond Head,

As AGD suggests above, it may not have been Brian's decision to use those songs at all.

who is not to say that all or parts of those songs were composed during the Smile Era?

I think the composition credits on Diamond Head strongly suggest that the song was written somewhat on the fly by studio musicians who recorded it in April of 1968.

There had to be some connection, because as it stands all of the other songs used on BWPS were from the Smile Era.

And TTGA and DH are not on BWPS. Like I said, maybe in draft form, there was a looser conception of what BWPS was going to be from certain people so that it didn't have to just include songs from the era but other songs that fit thematically. Once that idea was discarded, BWPS was shaped the way we know it now - a gathering of songs specific to the Smile era.

[drbeachboy]

Time To Get Alone and Diamond Head were on the preliminary tracklist for BWPS, was that an aesthetic decision and nothing more? It was confusing to place them in that context and it led to questions of the origins of those pieces of music. Diamond Head...that was a studio "jam session" more or less conceived by Brian and Wrecking Crew musicians who were well versed in Hawaiian music: Lyle Ritz who is a legendary uke player and Al Vescovo who was first call on lap steel in LA. Brian basically turned them loose and recorded it and even credited the guy who made the "ping" noises on a spring reverb unit as a co-writer.

So the genesis of that tune wasn't in Smile, unless we want to lump anything sounding vaguely "Hawaiian" with the Smile concept, and that would be incorrect. I guess that may have been why it was left off BWPS.

Anybody else here interviewing Darian soon? I'm sure he knows the reason(s) why both tunes were up for consideration in 2004.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What was the "Smile" concept?

Van Dyke and I wanted "Smile" to be a musical tour of America through the eyes of kids—from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head. We wanted to show people how American music had evolved over the years.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html?KEYWORDS=brian+wilson+++smile

Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

[drbeachboy]

What was the "Smile" concept?

Van Dyke and I wanted "Smile" to be a musical tour of America through the eyes of kids—from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head. We wanted to show people how American music had evolved over the years.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html?KEYWORDS=brian+wilson+++smile

Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

Andrew, didn't that list have Dada on it too, as I recall?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What was the "Smile" concept?

Van Dyke and I wanted "Smile" to be a musical tour of America through the eyes of kids—from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head. We wanted to show people how American music had evolved over the years.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html?KEYWORDS=brian+wilson+++smile

Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

Andrew, didn't that list have Dada on it too, as I recall?

I'm sure it did. Why should that matter?

[drbeachboy]

What was the "Smile" concept?

Van Dyke and I wanted "Smile" to be a musical tour of America through the eyes of kids—from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head. We wanted to show people how American music had evolved over the years.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html?KEYWORDS=brian+wilson+++smile

Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

Andrew, didn't that list have Dada on it too, as I recall?

I'm sure it did. Why should that matter?

Because you said this: "Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968." Why do you and I go through this so much. You really need to reread what you write. How can your reasoning that one was rewritten to replace the other when both were on the list?

[guitarfool2002]

Dada was on the list with Cool Cool Water.

[Wirestone]

.

[donald]

The production and engineering on Diamond Head, especially the drums, congas, special effect sounds, and steel guitar,  reminds these ears and imagination of Little Pad and Workshop sort of combined. 

[guitarfool2002]

The same guitarist who played on Little Pad, Al Vescovo, is on Diamond Head and I believe whatever other "Hawaiian" songs Brian used lap steel at this time. Or maybe just Diamond Head and Little Pad, either way it's the same guy. He was one of the few steel guitarists in LA who could read traditional notation for steel guitar, which is why he got a lot of studio calls to play specific written parts. On Diamond Head I think they followed a chord/form sketch rather than specific notes.

Diamond Head sounds remarkably similar to the production on Les Paul and Mary Ford's "Lover's Luau" album from 1959, especially the use of slap echo and reverb...it's a very similar aural sheen to the tracks, and a similar pulse in the rhythm of the songs. I was going to do an A/B comparison tying it together with the other Les Paul video featuring Heroes.

[drbeachboy]

The production and engineering on Diamond Head, especially the drums, congas, special effect sounds, and steel guitar,  reminds these ears and imagination of Little Pad and Workshop sort of combined.  

Absolutely! I would not be surprised if the that middle section of Diamond Head was a Smile Era composition.

[The Shift]

So...TBHWY, this is the first I've heard of "Diamond Head' and "Time To Get Alone" being considered for Smile in '04...source???

I was shown a copy of the tentative possibilities for a live Smile sequence back in 2004. The handwriting wasn't Brian's.

My understanding was that the list was drawn up by (I assume) the band members at the outset of the project to turn Smile into a live performance, and shown to Brian so he could approve the inclusion of those he wanted to include, and knock back others. It was SMiLE-based/oriented but its scope was wider, to include songs that folk weren't sure should be included or not.   That was BW could give the final, authoritative judgement on whether DH, TTGA etc etc etc were really SMiLE-origin tracks or not. The fact that he obviously must have rejected them implies they weren't, to the best of his memory.  That's my interpretation of the memory of the list. It's posted on this forum somewhere in the depths of history and I think Peter Reum will have a much better (and far more accurate) recollection than mine.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What was the "Smile" concept?

Van Dyke and I wanted "Smile" to be a musical tour of America through the eyes of kids—from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head. We wanted to show people how American music had evolved over the years.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html?KEYWORDS=brian+wilson+++smile

Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

Andrew, didn't that list have Dada on it too, as I recall?

I'm sure it did. Why should that matter?

Because you said this: "Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968." Why do you and I go through this so much. You really need to reread what you write. How can your reasoning that one was rewritten to replace the other when both were on the list?

I think you need to reread what I wrote, personally. The reason why we go through this so much is because you draw conclusions from what I say rather than accept what I say - that has been the basis for virtually every argument we have had. I am not suggesting that Love to Say Dada was rewritten to replace Diamond Head. Rather, there is little evidence to suggest that Diamond Head was ever part of Brian's agenda when it came to BWPS. So let's just eliminate the "rather than use a song about Hawaii from 1968" part of the sentence since that's what has confused you. In that sense, I am saying, if he wanted to convey the journey from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head, it makes sense why he would turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii. So now, the question becomes, why not choose Diamond Head? To which the answer is, Diamond Head was not a Smile era song which is why it was not considered to for the final draft of BWPS. In other words, there's a reason why they chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

[drbeachboy]

So...TBHWY, this is the first I've heard of "Diamond Head' and "Time To Get Alone" being considered for Smile in '04...source???

I was shown a copy of the tentative possibilities for a live Smile sequence back in 2004. The handwriting wasn't Brian's.

My understanding was that the list was drawn up by (I assume) the band members at the outset of the project to turn Smile into a live performance, and shown to Brian so he could approve the inclusion of those he wanted to include, and knock back others. It was SMiLE-based/oriented but its scope was wider, to include songs that folk weren't sure should be included or not.   That was BW could give the final, authoritative judgement on whether DH, TTGA etc etc etc were really SMiLE-origin tracks or not. The fact that he obviously must have rejected them implies they weren't, to the best of his memory.  That's my interpretation of the memory of the list. It's posted on this forum somewhere in the depths of history and I think Peter Reum will have a much better (and far more accurate) recollection than mine.

My recollection was that the list was for the live performance and I recall seeing it within weeks of the first RFH show. Now, whether it was an old list, I cannot say, but it was touted as the first playlist for the live performance.

[Wirestone]

What the live Smile was changed a great deal.

Originally, Jeff was asked to be in charge of it. He started listening to the archival tracks (or at least I recall him saying this in an interview). And we have this original list -- which is not, in any way, connected to what was played at the first shows, or at any BW shows. My guess has always been that this list dates from that early brainstorming. And part of that was that they were just going to play Smile-era tracks as a group.

At a certain point, Darian became involved, and Jeff was no longer mentioned. Actual, archival tracks began to be presented to Brian. Who know what the thought was then -- probably a little more historically accurate, a little more focused on Smile proper. And when Brian made the call -- and this is perhaps the most important single creative act Brian did in 2003 -- to bring back Van Dyke, the whole project shifted yet again. That's when the notion of trying to complete it thematically came up. I can't help but think that Van Dyke's presence allowed that to happen.

[drbeachboy]

What was the "Smile" concept?

Van Dyke and I wanted "Smile" to be a musical tour of America through the eyes of kids—from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head. We wanted to show people how American music had evolved over the years.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html?KEYWORDS=brian+wilson+++smile

Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

Andrew, didn't that list have Dada on it too, as I recall?

I'm sure it did. Why should that matter?

Because you said this: "Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968." Why do you and I go through this so much. You really need to reread what you write. How can your reasoning that one was rewritten to replace the other when both were on the list?

I think you need to reread what I wrote, personally. The reason why we go through this so much is because you draw conclusions from what I say rather than accept what I say - that has been the basis for virtually every argument we have had. I am not suggesting that Love to Say Dada was rewritten to replace Diamond Head. Rather, there is little evidence to suggest that Diamond Head was ever part of Brian's agenda when it came to BWPS. So let's just eliminate the "rather than use a song about Hawaii from 1968" part of the sentence since that's what has confused you. In that sense, I am saying, if he wanted to convey the journey from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head, it makes sense why he would turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii. So now, the question becomes, why not choose Diamond Head? To which the answer is, Diamond Head was not a Smile era song which is why it was not considered to for the final draft of BWPS. In other words, there's a reason why they chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

You are right, there had to be a reason, but we really don't know. Yet, In Blue Hawaii & Diamond Head were both on the list as I recall, though not absolutely certain. Also, since we are not speaking, but writing, you need to be more clear in your writing like you are with this last post. Yes, I do draw conclusions from what I read. I use my brain to think. I only know what you write, not always what you mean.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Also, since we are not speaking, but writing, you need to be more clear in your writing like you are with this last post. Yes, I do draw conclusions from what I read. I use my brain to think. I only know what you write, not always what you mean.

I write as I have been trained to write, as a published PhD candidate of Literature studies. I'm afraid I'm not particularly interested in changing my writing style now, especially since it has served me quite well for readers whose profession demands for them to use their brain to think. If you'd like me to link you to my published peer reviewed work in PM for evidence, I will gladly do so. Or, if you wish, I can link you to the work-in-progress on the academic journal that I have been asked to co-edit.

[drbeachboy]

Also, since we are not speaking, but writing, you need to be more clear in your writing like you are with this last post. Yes, I do draw conclusions from what I read. I use my brain to think. I only know what you write, not always what you mean.

I write as I have been trained to write, as a published PhD candidate of Literature studies. I'm afraid I'm not particularly interested in changing my writing style now, especially since it has served me quite well for readers whose profession demands for them to use their brain to think. If you'd like me to link you to my published peer reviewed work in PM for evidence, I will gladly do so. Or, if you wish, I can link you to the work-in-progress on the academic journal that I have been asked to co-edit.

Not necessary. I have a degree too, so what? We are, what we are. On this board I tend not to be over analytical when it comes to figuring out Brian's head or the Smile album. I have stated my thoughts and opinions many times throughout these threads on each subject, and there are no real or ideal answers to either. I try to just keep to the facts as I know or understand them, and hopefully I learn something new along the way. As for Smile, for me it is what Brian wants it to be. I have no need to theorize on what shoulda or coulda in 1967. Since 2004, I believe as Brian believes, that how it is presented now, is how the "adventure" should be experienced. That quote of his just sums things up perfectly for me.

[LostArt]

I think though that the original Smile presentation was much looser. It's already quite loose - things like Love to Say Dada which itself has a very vague connection to the album is included

Umm, let's not forget this:

8. Da Da (Taped Piano Strings) [LOVE TO SAY DADA / COOL, COOL WATER; Da Da Session: 12/22/66] 
9. Da Da (Fender Rhodes) [LOVE TO SAY DADA / COOL, COOL WATER; Da Da Session: 12/22/66] 

[guitarfool2002]

Still curious how 1965's "Three Blind Mice" tape connects with Smile...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think though that the original Smile presentation was much looser. It's already quite loose - things like Love to Say Dada which itself has a very vague connection to the album is included

Umm, let's not forget this:

8. Da Da (Taped Piano Strings) [LOVE TO SAY DADA / COOL, COOL WATER; Da Da Session: 12/22/66] 
9. Da Da (Fender Rhodes) [LOVE TO SAY DADA / COOL, COOL WATER; Da Da Session: 12/22/66] 

You make a good point.

[letsmakeit31]

Good point about three blind mice too. I always thought it was only a try out for Brian to see if he could work with a lot of musicians??