The "Leila Revelation"

[Micha]

The Brian mono mix of Wind Chimes doesn't seem to have been used either  The mix on Disc 1 (after the Holidays/Whispering winds crossfade, ugh) takes the verses from the second version re-record, but the rest of the track from the chorus onwards is from the first version, as heard on the Sea Of Tunes boots, and like BWPS.

Well, as I predicted waaaayyyy back in May or something WC isn't just the 1993 box set version... But what is "The Brian mono mix of Wind Chimes"?

[Andrew G. Doe]

And of course, as AGD said, under normal (ie non-phase-cancelled) listening conditions, it's utterly inaudible.

Exactly... which means that neither L, B or S could possibly have heard it either. Hence the original claim for extra vocals is invalid. However, listening closely, with headphones and a few other bells & whistles, I hear... nothing of the sort, just a whole bunch of phase cancellation.  Been down this road before with "JOIML" when someone swore black & white there were ghost bvs in the middle eight when it was just a product of the mixing.

If Alan or Mark pop up here and says "yeah, that's because..." then I'll hold my hands up, but until then, I'm hugely skeptical. Sorry.

Reminds me of when they did the scan of the supposed Noah's Ark in Turkey, and got... nothing. One of the party spent the whole night recalibrating and jigging with the results until a pattern of lines appeared. However, some years later, the 'Ark' was proven to be a natural feature.

[JMZ]

Cancelling from a needle-drop of a vinyl record (ie a non-sample-accurate analogue source) is never going to work well, for the reasons described above. When the SMiLE Sessions finally comes out, we might be able to do a much better job with the uncompressed audio off the CD.

TAPE is a non-sample-accurate analogue source, so the problem will remain the same on the CD version.

This would have worked if Mark Linett had edited (copy-paste) the two Cabin Essence choruses from the same digital capture, then put the "Truck Driving Man" on top of it digitally.

Anyways, I confirm, the grand coolie IS the extra vocal on the 2nd chorus, here's a better extraction from my vinyl: http://www.jmz-music.net/work/SMiLE

It's so weird they put it here, it would sound like an editing mistake if it wasn't starting right at the begining of the chorus.

[Mooger Fooger]

Depending on the multi-track source used to remix the song, I'm betting this is print through of the "Coolie" vocal. As it is so inaudible on the non OOP track it was never an issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through

[monicker]

I don't think there's any way print through can be that loud. It's nearly at the same volume as Dennis' vocals. This is so odd.

[JMZ]

Depending on the multi-track source used to remix the song, I'm betting this is print through of the "Coolie" vocal. As it is so inaudible on the non OOP track it was never an issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through

Have you ever listened to real tape bleeding ? This is WAY TOO LOUD to be tape-bleed. And why does it starts and stops so clearly ? And anyway, it's too far from the tag to be tape-bleed. IMO, it was a test the Boys did during the recording and droped it off because it didn't work properly.

But maybe Mark Linett found it interesting to get it back, just for fun and historical accuracy.  

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Depending on the multi-track source used to remix the song, I'm betting this is print through of the "Coolie" vocal. As it is so inaudible on the non OOP track it was never an issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through

Have you ever listened to real tape bleeding ? This is WAY TOO LOUD to be tape-bleed. And why does it starts and stops so clearly ? And anyway, it's too far from the tag to be tape-bleed. IMO, it was a test the Boys did during the recording and droped it off because it didn't work properly.

But maybe Mark Linett found it interesting to get it back, just for fun and historical accuracy.  

Wow, good work.

Great to hear Dennis in isolation too!

[The Shift]

If Mark did put it back…  now someone with the skills of JMZ & Matt B is gonna have to do exactly the same process with a '68 vinyl version to see if it was there all along and we've simply missed it all these years.

What are the chances?

This is (a bit) like finding a lost masterpiece painting buried on a canvas beneath the layers of paint of another masterpiece.

So… Intent? Accident? Fake?

And Oct/Dec66 origin? Oct 68 origin? Or 2010/11 origin?

[Matt Bielewicz]

OK, a few points here. Firstly, thanks to JMZ for doing a much better job than I could last night, and of the whole section, too. Andrew, I was ready this morning to send you the isolated left channel of what I did, because then you might have heard what I was going on about much more clearly, but JMZ has provided more compelling evidence than I could.

To Mooger... it can't be print-through. Print-through happens when the sections of tape are next to each other on the reel. And as JMZ said, the tag would have been way too far from the TDM bridge to print the vocals through onto the bridge. The more turns of tape there are between the sections, the less chance there is of significant print-through, and any such print-through has progressively less top end and volume the further away it is. The start of the TDM section is nearly 30 seconds away from the start of the GC section. At 15 inches per second, that puts that Grand Coolie vocal... [sticks out tongue, crosses eyes] ***four hundred and fifty inches*** from the start of the TDM section. There's just no way that could print through. Even if it was a sizzling cymbal recorded with loads of top end, it'd be IMPOSSIBLE that a signal could print through over that distance of tape.

Next, as I pointed out last night, this can't have been in any historical mix of Cabin Essence, as it wouldn't have been possible to cancel the TDM vocals out of older mixes otherwise. Not without getting this ghostly Grand Coolie vocal all over it, any way. And yet we DO have the isolated Dennis vocal. I haven't tried doing a similar cancelling job on a 20/20 copy of Cabin Essence (and I don't have time today...), but if anyone tries it, I'll bet the proverbial donut that this ghostly Grand Coolie vocal... will NOT be present.

So... that new vocal is there now because the TDM section is a NEW mix, with the GC vocal mixed in *in addition to* Dennis's vocal.

Now, I don't know how 'B' ('Brent'? 'Brett?' er... 'BRAD???') knew there was something extra there, but he claimed that there was... and there was. That Cabin Essence claim was the only thing I thought fishy about his and 'Leila's' claims. So I'm going to have to say, I think they're on the money, even if 'they' are not who 'they' claim to be...

Oh, and John, great points. Yes, it is a bit like finding 'this is a fake' scrawled underneath the paint on the Mona Lisa with felt-tip pen, isn't it? Which is a reference I have a sneaking feeling you'll get...!

As I say, though, I come down on the side of this being a 2011 addition. Unless they used a *different* vintage mixdown for the TDM section from a 66 or 68 era tape in the 2011 mix than the one that was used in Cabin Essence on 20/20. I suppose that's a possibility...?

[JMZ]

At 15 inches per second, that puts that Grand Coolie vocal... [sticks out tongue, crosses eyes] ***four hundred and fifty inches*** from the start of the TDM section. There's just no way that could print through. Even if it was a sizzling cymbal recorded with loads of top end, it'd be IMPOSSIBLE that a signal could print through over that distance of tape.

Wow, you like to be accurate 

I haven't tried doing a similar cancelling job on a 20/20 copy of Cabin Essence (and I don't have time today...), but if anyone tries it, I'll bet the proverbial donut that this ghostly Grand Coolie vocal... will NOT be present.

Right ! It's NOT present that's what I did to enhance the TDM section on my SMiLE mix which by the way is available on the Linear Zap's blog in both ISO, flac and mp3 format and of which I strongly recommand to have a listen 

Now, I don't know how 'B' ('Brent'? 'Brett?' er... 'BRAD???')

BOYD 

If Mark did put it back…  now someone with the skills of JMZ & Matt B is gonna have to do exactly the same process with a '68 vinyl version to see if it was there all along and we've simply missed it all these years.

I don't own the original vinyl pressing, but if someone rips it to me in wave or aiff file, I will gladly do the extraction 

[The Shift]

Oh, and John, great points. Yes, it is a bit like finding 'this is a fake' scrawled underneath the paint on the Mona Lisa with felt-tip pen, isn't it? Which is a reference I have a sneaking feeling you'll get...!

Now that's oblique!

[Mooger Fooger]

JMZ I have the original iso TDM vocals and the extra vocals are not there.

[JMZ]

JMZ I have the original iso TDM vocals and the extra vocals are not there.

So it's definitely from 2010/2011 ? I'm pretty sure these were demo vocals they didn't keep for the 68 final cut.

[Micha]

A few weeks ago I listened to CE with headphones repeatedly, and something in the "newly mixed" sections struck me as sonically strange... the overall sound of those sections and some strange hissing artifacts at the endings of the chorusses... and a thought crossed my mind I did not dare to put over to you before: Could it be that those are not 2011 mixes but actual 1966 Brian test mixes that were used for the iron horse and grand coolie sections?

Anyway I agree that the grand coolie vocals are not on the 1969 version of the iron horse section. At 1:56 of the ripped version of the Mojo single you can hear the "s" of "seen" pretty good. That's not on the 20/20 version.

[Matt Bielewicz]

JMZ... how could they be demo vocals that were not used? For one thing, they're *finished* vocals, but from the wrong section, in the wrong place. They must surely have been placed here by mistake...?

Sorry, I sound like I'm attacking you there, I'm not. It's a genuine question. The GC vocals don't fit rhythmically or musically there. It has to be a compilation mistake, surely - 37!ws (or Upside-down SMiLE as I now like to think of him/her...) has suggested an excellent explanation for how it might have happened. Whether from a 66- or 68-era tape, or from a 2011 mixing snafu, I concede we can't be sure. But they *can't* be there deliberately...?

[JMZ]

JMZ... how could they be demo vocals that were not used? For one thing, they're *finished* vocals, but from the wrong section, in the wrong place. They must surely have been placed here by mistake...?

Yeah, I understand that's not an attck.   

Well, are we sure these are from the same take than the "finished" tag vocals we hear 450 inches further ?  (we should sync these on top of the tag and phase cancel them to see if they cancel something - I say something because these lines have been overdubbed, whereas the ones we just discovered on TDM are not, this is also what leads me to conclude to a "demo" vocals "just to see").

Anyways, if they cancel something, these are digital copy-pasted, so this means Linett is either an alcoholic or slowly becomes senile 

if they don't cancel and happen to be from a different take, this will mean they have been recorded back in the "Tape" days, so this means these were for demoing, or "just to see". Because they couldn't "copy-paste" in those days, so this means it's here on purpose (but I agree with you, it's very unlikely).

[JMZ]

we should sync these on top of the tag and phase cancel them to see if they cancel something

Ok, I just done it but it's very hard to compare because there is a lot of noise behind (and I can't find matching point on the waveforms).

By ear, i'd say this is one of the takes from the tag, and therefore it seems to be a 2011 editing mistake (so either Linett is a drunkard or he employs bad trainees) !

[Matt Bielewicz]

Mmm, OK, thanks for running the tests - I just don't have time to do that today... All very interesting.

If it IS a 2011 mistake, I still say it's not a bad one. I mean, the whole reason I started this was that in normal listening circumstances, you can't hear the extra vocal on this section at all. Only 'B's' comment sent me down this road in the first place... so it's not like running the two Vega-Tables verse vocals at once and calling that a finished mix (yeah, I know an in-progress mix leaked out on Vigotone, but that's hardly a fair comparison, and wasn't supposed to be a finished, release-quality mix). In general, I'm a fan of Mark's (considerable) compilation and mixing efforts. And if he spliced in a mono section here that was actually mixed in 66 or 68, it can't possibly be his fault, of course. As usual, we don't know enough to be sure, at this point...!

[guitarfool2002]

Sounds too obvious to be a mistake, those vocals start right on the downbeat, whether it drifts off the beat or not.

Is there a version of this section *with Grand Coolie vocals* that can be proven to date from 1966 which can be analyzed?

[Andrew G. Doe]

So... that new vocal is there now because the TDM section is a NEW mix, with the GC vocal mixed in *in addition to* Dennis's vocal.

Gotta be a touch careful here, for reasons I'm sure you'll appreciate... but that is not my understanding. Almost everyone is hugely overthinking this.

Also, to JMZ & Matt, you might want to consider very carefully saying what you have about Mark in this post, even in jest.

[Matt Bielewicz]

Hey, Andrew, please, I entreat you, read what I said carefully. I am a huge fan of Mark's work and of all the effort he's put in to bring us this stuff over the years! And NEVER so more than now!

And I never said anything more than that! No criticisms, in jest or otherwise, in that post or this. Straight up.

I'm not having a go at you either, but I don't wish my views to be misunderstood or misrepresented, any more than you would. Fair comment?

Matt

[Matt Bielewicz]

...and what's more, I would be genuinely interested to find out how these vocals got where they are.

I've already backed off the opinion I offered earlier today: that they must be from a 2011 mix, because, as John Manning pointed out, they could be from a mono section mixed in the 60s, and cut into the new SMiLE mix this year. That made me rethink. And of course, it's a possibility.

If you can talk more about this, Andrew, I'd like to, but I understand if you can't at present.

Matt

[SloopJohnB]

I don't think anyone's "overthinking" this, and I don't see any reasons why we shouldn't talk about it. On both JMZ's and Matt's files, this "have you seen the grand coolie" section is easily audible, even without headphones and on my crappy laptop speakers, in a very surprising place. I think discussing this is waaaaay more interesting than discussing what's supposedly the last tenth of a second of Our Prayer at the beginning of Heroes & Villains.


I, too, have a copy of the isolated Dennis vocals (no idea whether they came off a vinyl or a CD though), and that "grand coolie" section is nowhere to be heard. So, unless I'm missing something, either it's a new mix that deliberately includes this section (and I don't see the point, if it isn't loud enough to be heard in normal conditions), or it's a mistake (or at least something that's been overlooked).

I can't wait to have more details about this! 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Hey, Andrew, please, I entreat you, read what I said carefully. I am a huge fan of Mark's work and of all the effort he's put in to bring us this stuff over the years! And NEVER so more than now!

And I never said anything more than that! No criticisms, in jest or otherwise, in that post or this. Straight up.

I'm not having a go at you either, but I don't wish my views to be misunderstood or misrepresented, any more than you would. Fair comment?

Matt

My apologies, I miscounted the quotes - it was JMZ both times. Even so, my point holds - not a nice thing to say, even in jest.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I don't think anyone's "overthinking" this, and I don't see any reasons why we shouldn't talk about it. On both JMZ's and Matt's files, this "have you seen the grand coolie" section is easily audible, even without headphones and on my crappy laptop speakers, in a very surprising place. I think discussing this is waaaaay more interesting than discussing what's supposedly the last tenth of a second of Our Prayer at the beginning of Heroes & Villains.


I, too, have a copy of the isolated Dennis vocals (no idea whether they came off a vinyl or a CD though), and that "grand coolie" section is nowhere to be heard. So, unless I'm missing something, either it's a new mix that deliberately includes this section (and I don't see the point, if it isn't loud enough to be heard in normal conditions), or it's a mistake (or at least something that's been overlooked).

I can't wait to have more details about this! 

My "overthinking" comment referred to the solutions offered.