Opinons on what's false about what's written in WIBN: My Own Story

[rogerlancelot]

Here's another great Syd interview from 1971 HERE:

http://www.sydbarrett.net/subpages/articles/syd_barrett_interview_melody_mak.htm

Piping hot clam chowder enemas!

Edit: I had posted the wrong link and I wanted to mention piping hot clam chowder enemas again in case anybody missed it the first couple of times. After all, nobody wants to take their clam chowder enemas icy cold, right???

[Andrew G. Doe]

I sent Jules Siegel an email about the "Surfing Saints" article:

"Your piece in "Cheetah" entitled "Surfing Saints" has regularly been attributed to Brian Wilson, although having read the piece I have to say it doesn't read like his speech pattern (or knowledge of surfing) at all. Is this attribution correct ?"

His response:

"He had nothing to do with it. I paraphrased it from another source."

I also asked him...

"May I ask if at any time during your acquaintance with him he mentioned Zen as being a cornerstone to SMILE ?"

"He would use the word occasionally, but I didn't get the feeling that he really knew much about it."

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

^

That should be in a sticky, and be in a FAQ. Check and mate

[Sam_BFC]

But how reliable is Jules' present day account of events that took place over 40 years ago 

[Andrew G. Doe]

But how reliable is Jules' present day account of events that took place over 40 years ago  

Considerably more reliable than Brian's recall in 1990/1  

But your point is fair.

[cutterschoice]

"May I ask if at any time during your acquaintance with him he mentioned Zen as being a cornerstone to SMILE ?"

"He would use the word occasionally, but I didn't get the feeling that he really knew much about it."

Well, we know he had a "toehold on Zen"

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

And a headlock on our hearts!

[bgas]

I sent Jules Siegel an email about the "Surfing Saints" article:

"Your piece in "Cheetah" entitled "Surfing Saints" has regularly been attributed to Brian Wilson, although having read the piece I have to say it doesn't read like his speech pattern (or knowledge of surfing) at all. Is this attribution correct ?"

His response:

"He had nothing to do with it. I paraphrased it from another source."

I also asked him...

"May I ask if at any time during your acquaintance with him he mentioned Zen as being a cornerstone to SMILE ?"

"He would use the word occasionally, but I didn't get the feeling that he really knew much about it."

But how reliable is Jules' present day account of events that took place over 40 years ago 

How does one attribute "Surfing Saints" to Jules in the first place? Of the articles listed, it's the ONLY one not credited to an author. Might it not just as easily have been written/ borrowed by Lawrence Dietz, Barbara Petty or Tom Nolan? An Uncredited unknown? Or perhaps it also came from an old Chassidic saying;

         

[Andrew G. Doe]

But how reliable is Jules' present day account of events that took place over 40 years ago  

How does one attribute "Surfing Saints" to Jules in the first place? Of the articles listed, it's the ONLY one not credited to an author. Might it not just as easily have been written/ borrowed by Lawrence Dietz, Barbara Petty or Tom Nolan? An Uncredited unknown? Or perhaps it also came from an old Chassidic saying

Fair point, and one I considered - but JS responded that he paraphrased it from another source, not that it was nothing to do with him.

And, er, it's not the only one listed sans author... page 38.

[bgas]

But how reliable is Jules' present day account of events that took place over 40 years ago  

How does one attribute "Surfing Saints" to Jules in the first place? Of the articles listed, it's the ONLY one not credited to an author. Might it not just as easily have been written/ borrowed by Lawrence Dietz, Barbara Petty or Tom Nolan? An Uncredited unknown? Or perhaps it also came from an old Chassidic saying

Fair point, and one I considered - but JS responded that he paraphrased it from another source, not that it was nothing to do with him.

And, er, it's not the only one listed sans author... page 38.

AH, you'd have me there.... BUT!!!!  I have the magazine, and I think you don't.  On page 38, the story is signed by Barbara Petty. The text on page 70, where Surfing Saints begins, gives no credits, nor are there any on the foloowing pages with text. Which is not to say that I'm disputing his claim of ownership, cuz even after 44 years, he was there and I wasn't; Tho I wonder if he owns a copy for reference, or he's just going on the little gray cells...( are Brains grey?)

[Andrew G. Doe]

But how reliable is Jules' present day account of events that took place over 40 years ago  

How does one attribute "Surfing Saints" to Jules in the first place? Of the articles listed, it's the ONLY one not credited to an author. Might it not just as easily have been written/ borrowed by Lawrence Dietz, Barbara Petty or Tom Nolan? An Uncredited unknown? Or perhaps it also came from an old Chassidic saying

Fair point, and one I considered - but JS responded that he paraphrased it from another source, not that it was nothing to do with him.

And, er, it's not the only one listed sans author... page 38.

AH, you'd have me there.... BUT!!!!  I have the magazine, and I think you don't.  On page 38, the story is signed by Barbara Petty. The text on page 70, where Surfing Saints begins, gives no credits, nor are there any on the foloowing pages with text. Which is not to say that I'm disputing his claim of ownership, cuz even after 44 years, he was there and I wasn't; Tho I wonder if he owns a copy for reference, or he's just going on the little gray cells...( are Brains grey?)

*koff*

Check who's listed as editor. 

[A Million Units In Jan!]

This has really nothing to do with one side or the other, but didn't somebody once say that Siegel sort of tried to come off like he was tight with the gang, but he was actually pretty annoying?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I recall that as well.

[bgas]

But how reliable is Jules' present day account of events that took place over 40 years ago  

How does one attribute "Surfing Saints" to Jules in the first place? Of the articles listed, it's the ONLY one not credited to an author. Might it not just as easily have been written/ borrowed by Lawrence Dietz, Barbara Petty or Tom Nolan? An Uncredited unknown? Or perhaps it also came from an old Chassidic saying

Fair point, and one I considered - but JS responded that he paraphrased it from another source, not that it was nothing to do with him.

And, er, it's not the only one listed sans author... page 38.

AH, you'd have me there.... BUT!!!!  I have the magazine, and I think you don't.  On page 38, the story is signed by Barbara Petty. The text on page 70, where Surfing Saints begins, gives no credits, nor are there any on the foloowing pages with text. Which is not to say that I'm disputing his claim of ownership, cuz even after 44 years, he was there and I wasn't; Tho I wonder if he owns a copy for reference, or he's just going on the little gray cells...( are Brains grey?)

*koff*

Check who's listed as editor. 

*Sniff*
I noticed that first thing, which is why I mentioned the Managing Editor, Editorial Assisstant, and Contributing Editor( Los Angeles). Does the Editor get the credit when no-one else is listed? ( I am unaware as to the proper protocol) Perhaps BT could chime in here and enlighten me?

[18thofMay]

But how reliable is Jules' present day account of events that took place over 40 years ago  

How does one attribute "Surfing Saints" to Jules in the first place? Of the articles listed, it's the ONLY one not credited to an author. Might it not just as easily have been written/ borrowed by Lawrence Dietz, Barbara Petty or Tom Nolan? An OiUncredited unknown? Or perhaps it also came from an old Chassidic saying

Fair point, and one I considered - but JS responded that he paraphrased it from another source, not that it was nothing to do with him.

And, er, it's not the only one listed sans author... page 38.

AH, you'd have me there.... BUT!!!!  I have the magazine, and I think you don't.  On page 38, the story is signed by Barbara Petty. The text on page 70, where Surfing Saints begins, gives no credits, nor are there any on the foloowing pages with text. Which is not to say that I'm disputing his claim of ownership, cuz even after 44 years, he was there and I wasn't; Tho I wonder if he owns a copy for reference, or he's just going on the little gray cells...( are Brains grey?)

*koff*

Check who's listed as editor. 

*Sniff*
I noticed that first thing, which is why I mentioned the Managing Editor, Editorial Assisstant, and Contributing Editor( Los Angeles). Does the Editor get the credit when no-one else is listed? ( I am unaware as to the proper protocol) Perhaps BT could chime in here and enlighten me?

I am sure that is coming soon!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

That's what she said.









-_-

[Andrew G. Doe]

*Sniff*
I noticed that first thing, which is why I mentioned the Managing Editor, Editorial Assisstant, and Contributing Editor( Los Angeles). Does the Editor get the credit when no-one else is listed? ( I am unaware as to the proper protocol) Perhaps BT could chime in here and enlighten me?

Yup, standard protocol - anything unsigned is the work of the editor.

[bgas]

*Sniff*
I noticed that first thing, which is why I mentioned the Managing Editor, Editorial Assisstant, and Contributing Editor( Los Angeles). Does the Editor get the credit when no-one else is listed? ( I am unaware as to the proper protocol) Perhaps BT could chime in here and enlighten me?

Yup, standard protocol - anything unsigned is the work of the editor.

Alrighty then, I'm delivered

[Mike's Beard]

Nevermind the Jules article, what on earth is a naked Mama Cass spread doing in there? There are some things man is not meant to see.

[bgas]

Nevermind the Jules article, what on earth is a naked Mama Cass spread doing in there? There are some things man is not meant to see.

Umm, YUM! That's a three pager in Full COLOR!!  I'd post it here, except I'm not taking the magazine apart to do it...

[Bill Tobelman]

I think that the reason the person being quoted in the Surfing Saints article is not mentioned by name is because of a request in the piece itself. The request is, "Please don't tell anyone I said that" (referring to the "finding out you really are...God" line that precedes the request for anonymity).

Compare these two quotes from CHEETAH!:

"It's physical; really Zen, right?"

"You get to understand that the surf is now. The eternal now, right?"

The first one is from Goodbye Surfing, Hello God and the second is from Surfing Saints. And at the end of both lines you have a Zen reference followed by "right?". Obviously, this will likely not be very convincing to most of you.

I would however ask the same people to consider how many people they know speak of God in such a manner. In my 50 plus years the majority of my intersection with people speaking in such terms is pretty much limited to one person, Brian Wilson.

Consider some of the following pairs of quotes. The first one will be from Surfing Saints & the follow-ups will be noted.

"A lot of people say Kahuna all the time, but that doesn't mean they really believe Kahuna is God. It's just a word, anyway. You don't need words when you know."

"If they don't get the words, they'll get the music, because that's where it's really at, in the music. You can get hung-up in the words, you know." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"You don't need words when you know. And if you don't know, man, don't expect anyone to tell you."

"I can't teach you, or tell you, what I learned from taking it (LSD). But I consider it a very religious experience." (The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music)

"That's what you really learn from surfing, that everything is always changing and time never repeats itself."

"Empires, ideas, lives, institutions--everything has to fall, tumbling like dominoes." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"To come out of that wave alive, is like being reborn."

"Then the whole thing was there. I mean my whole life. Birth and death and rebirth. The whole thing. Even the beach was in it, a whole thing about the beach." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"It's only happened to me once---early in the morning alone on the beach...."

"I had what I consider a very religious experience." (The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music)

What subtlety I like most (this is a very subjective point) about the Surfing Saints article, besides the clear light claim, is that the sun was coming up very red. As you glance through the booklet meant for inclusion in the album you get the feeling of the red sky red.

But as far as the spiritual topics covered in the Surfing Saints piece go....they seem to be what was on Brian's mind following his religious experience. The intro to the piece about "the sun tanned world of bikini beach" seems straight out of the California myth.

You could knock Surfing Saints out of the discussion if you honestly think & feel it's not Brian. You can totally ignore the bio's LSD accounts if that makes you feel better. You don't have to think SMiLE is comparable to a Zen riddle: that it was meant to bring about spiritual enlightenment. It doesn't have to be the greatest album ever. Brian doesn't have to be on the genius level certain "theories" would have you believe. All the grandest claims about SMiLE don't have to be satisfied.

You can gloriously settle for the confusion kettle that all your brilliant uncreative research has wrought. Let obviousness rule.

[bgas]

I think that the reason the person being quoted in the Surfing Saints article is not mentioned by name is because of a request in the piece itself. The request is, "Please don't tell anyone I said that" (referring to the "finding out you really are...God" line that precedes the request for anonymity).

Compare these two quotes from CHEETAH!:

"It's physical; really Zen, right?"

"You get to understand that the surf is now. The eternal now, right?"

The first one is from Goodbye Surfing, Hello God and the second is from Surfing Saints. And at the end of both lines you have a Zen reference followed by "right?". Obviously, this will likely not be very convincing to most of you.

I would however ask the same people to consider how many people they know speak of God in such a manner. In my 50 plus years the majority of my intersection with people speaking in such terms is pretty much limited to one person, Brian Wilson.

Consider some of the following pairs of quotes. The first one will be from Surfing Saints & the follow-ups will be noted.

"A lot of people say Kahuna all the time, but that doesn't mean they really believe Kahuna is God. It's just a word, anyway. You don't need words when you know."

"If they don't get the words, they'll get the music, because that's where it's really at, in the music. You can get hung-up in the words, you know." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"You don't need words when you know. And if you don't know, man, don't expect anyone to tell you."

"I can't teach you, or tell you, what I learned from taking it (LSD). But I consider it a very religious experience." (The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music)

"That's what you really learn from surfing, that everything is always changing and time never repeats itself."

"Empires, ideas, lives, institutions--everything has to fall, tumbling like dominoes." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"To come out of that wave alive, is like being reborn."

"Then the whole thing was there. I mean my whole life. Birth and death and rebirth. The whole thing. Even the beach was in it, a whole thing about the beach." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"It's only happened to me once---early in the morning alone on the beach...."

"I had what I consider a very religious experience." (The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music)

What subtlety I like most (this is a very subjective point) about the Surfing Saints article, besides the clear light claim, is that the sun was coming up very red. As you glance through the booklet meant for inclusion in the album you get the feeling of the red sky red.

But as far as the spiritual topics covered in the Surfing Saints piece go....they seem to be what was on Brian's mind following his religious experience. The intro to the piece about "the sun tanned world of bikini beach" seems straight out of the California myth.

You could knock Surfing Saints out of the discussion if you honestly think & feel it's not Brian. You can totally ignore the bio's LSD accounts if that makes you feel better. You don't have to think SMiLE is comparable to a Zen riddle: that it was meant to bring about spiritual enlightenment. It doesn't have to be the greatest album ever. Brian doesn't have to be on the genius level certain "theories" would have you believe. All the grandest claims about SMiLE don't have to be satisfied.

You can gloriously settle for the confusion kettle that all your brilliant uncreative research has wrought. Let obviousness rule.

If there was anyone anywhere, ever, that belongs in the Cuckoo's nest, more than you do, I'd be totally surprised.  If it doesn't fit, it's not because you could be wrong, it's obviously because the rest of the world is wrong.
 You need to tune out for a while. Get some therapy.  Check into a Zen Clinic.  drop some tabs.  join a monastery
Brian wrote it, but he wanted to be disguised so only Bill Tobelman and himself would know
You're much more than one toke over the line, Bill. Everything you say now means squat.

[18thofMay]

I think that the reason the person being quoted in the Surfing Saints article is not mentioned by name is because of a request in the piece itself. The request is, "Please don't tell anyone I said that" (referring to the "finding out you really are...God" line that precedes the request for anonymity).

Compare these two quotes from CHEETAH!:

"It's physical; really Zen, right?"

"You get to understand that the surf is now. The eternal now, right?"

The first one is from Goodbye Surfing, Hello God and the second is from Surfing Saints. And at the end of both lines you have a Zen reference followed by "right?". Obviously, this will likely not be very convincing to most of you.

I would however ask the same people to consider how many people they know speak of God in such a manner. In my 50 plus years the majority of my intersection with people speaking in such terms is pretty much limited to one person, Brian Wilson.

Consider some of the following pairs of quotes. The first one will be from Surfing Saints & the follow-ups will be noted.

"A lot of people say Kahuna all the time, but that doesn't mean they really believe Kahuna is God. It's just a word, anyway. You don't need words when you know."

"If they don't get the words, they'll get the music, because that's where it's really at, in the music. You can get hung-up in the words, you know." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"You don't need words when you know. And if you don't know, man, don't expect anyone to tell you."

"I can't teach you, or tell you, what I learned from taking it (LSD). But I consider it a very religious experience." (The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music)

"That's what you really learn from surfing, that everything is always changing and time never repeats itself."

"Empires, ideas, lives, institutions--everything has to fall, tumbling like dominoes." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"To come out of that wave alive, is like being reborn."

"Then the whole thing was there. I mean my whole life. Birth and death and rebirth. The whole thing. Even the beach was in it, a whole thing about the beach." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"It's only happened to me once---early in the morning alone on the beach...."

"I had what I consider a very religious experience." (The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music)

What subtlety I like most (this is a very subjective point) about the Surfing Saints article, besides the clear light claim, is that the sun was coming up very red. As you glance through the booklet meant for inclusion in the album you get the feeling of the red sky red.

But as far as the spiritual topics covered in the Surfing Saints piece go....they seem to be what was on Brian's mind following his religious experience. The intro to the piece about "the sun tanned world of bikini beach" seems straight out of the California myth.

You could knock Surfing Saints out of the discussion if you honestly think & feel it's not Brian. You can totally ignore the bio's LSD accounts if that makes you feel better. You don't have to think SMiLE is comparable to a Zen riddle: that it was meant to bring about spiritual enlightenment. It doesn't have to be the greatest album ever. Brian doesn't have to be on the genius level certain "theories" would have you believe. All the grandest claims about SMiLE don't have to be satisfied.

You can gloriously settle for the confusion kettle that all your brilliant uncreative research has wrought. Let obviousness rule.

If there was anyone anywhere, ever, that belongs in the Cuckoo's nest, more than you do, I'd be totally surprised.  If it doesn't fit, it's not because you could be wrong, it's obviously because the rest of the world is wrong.
 You need to tune out for a while. Get some therapy.  Check into a Zen Clinic.  drop some tabs.  join a monastery
Brian wrote it, but he wanted to be disguised so only Bill Tobelman and himself would know
You're much more than one toke over the line, Bill. Everything you say now means squat.

I drew the same conclusion months ago! I have copped some harsh criticism from some for my comments to Bill. I seriously believe some of us need help some more urgently than others!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think that the reason the person being quoted in the Surfing Saints article is not mentioned by name is because of a request in the piece itself. The request is, "Please don't tell anyone I said that" (referring to the "finding out you really are...God" line that precedes the request for anonymity).

Compare these two quotes from CHEETAH!:

"It's physical; really Zen, right?"

"You get to understand that the surf is now. The eternal now, right?"

The first one is from Goodbye Surfing, Hello God and the second is from Surfing Saints. And at the end of both lines you have a Zen reference followed by "right?". Obviously, this will likely not be very convincing to most of you.

I would however ask the same people to consider how many people they know speak of God in such a manner. In my 50 plus years the majority of my intersection with people speaking in such terms is pretty much limited to one person, Brian Wilson.

Consider some of the following pairs of quotes. The first one will be from Surfing Saints & the follow-ups will be noted.

"A lot of people say Kahuna all the time, but that doesn't mean they really believe Kahuna is God. It's just a word, anyway. You don't need words when you know."

"If they don't get the words, they'll get the music, because that's where it's really at, in the music. You can get hung-up in the words, you know." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"You don't need words when you know. And if you don't know, man, don't expect anyone to tell you."

"I can't teach you, or tell you, what I learned from taking it (LSD). But I consider it a very religious experience." (The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music)

"That's what you really learn from surfing, that everything is always changing and time never repeats itself."

"Empires, ideas, lives, institutions--everything has to fall, tumbling like dominoes." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"To come out of that wave alive, is like being reborn."

"Then the whole thing was there. I mean my whole life. Birth and death and rebirth. The whole thing. Even the beach was in it, a whole thing about the beach." (Goodbye Surfing Hello God)

"It's only happened to me once---early in the morning alone on the beach...."

"I had what I consider a very religious experience." (The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music)

What subtlety I like most (this is a very subjective point) about the Surfing Saints article, besides the clear light claim, is that the sun was coming up very red. As you glance through the booklet meant for inclusion in the album you get the feeling of the red sky red.

But as far as the spiritual topics covered in the Surfing Saints piece go....they seem to be what was on Brian's mind following his religious experience. The intro to the piece about "the sun tanned world of bikini beach" seems straight out of the California myth.

You could knock Surfing Saints out of the discussion if you honestly think & feel it's not Brian. You can totally ignore the bio's LSD accounts if that makes you feel better. You don't have to think SMiLE is comparable to a Zen riddle: that it was meant to bring about spiritual enlightenment. It doesn't have to be the greatest album ever. Brian doesn't have to be on the genius level certain "theories" would have you believe. All the grandest claims about SMiLE don't have to be satisfied.

You can gloriously settle for the confusion kettle that all your brilliant uncreative research has wrought. Let obviousness rule.

What a bunch of self-congratulatory nonsense.

[18thofMay]

I honestly got that vibe from his very first post on this board. I had read his stuff, looked around asked a few welll sourced people and then thought nothing of it..Most just think it is a laugh!!