pet sounds as gnostic esotericism

[FUN³]

i've been lurking here for a while, but i've grown to greatly value some alternative perspectives from a few folks here, (the esteemed tobelman and not as esteemed fishmonk lol...i will make no apologies, i love those guys! they present another truth to the mystery of SMiLE.) many times those folks are unfairly derided or not even listened to, for some of their important contributions or for just being themselves; i dont see how anyone could listen to smile, or read "catch a wave" and not come to the same conclusions?!!  So YES, Im a firm believer in tobelman's spiritual enlightment teleology/zen interpretation of SMiLE!
It would be cool if tobelman's views were represented in the official release but in the interest of non-disclosure he will play his part from the fringe as im sure he's resigned to do so.  truth is not for everyone, but for the initiated, who listen. sometimes we are simply messengers, without reason, performing the Great Work. BW was aware of this when he dreamed of his halo and his invocation of light during the PET SOUNDS recordings.

so today is the celebration of the resurrection of christ(found in all of us), and i was thinking about a gnostic interpretation of Pet Sounds (Pistis Sophia).

as above(god-love) so below(romantic love).

almost every song is about love/yearning for unity(or reunification) with another spirit or the all. this is pure, spiritual expression and the key to understanding the album as sonic alchemy

the following will refer to god a number of times. when i use this term it should be read as the gnostic concept of the "pleroma" and not some old bearded white dude:

WOULDN'T IT BE NICE - to have a chemical marriage and realise our destiny, to return from whence we came?
YOU STILL BELIEVE IN ME - we are leaving the fullness of god(again), Ein Sof awaits us with unimaginable love and unwavering faith that we will return.
THATS NOT ME - the soul's declaration of independence & descent into the world of matter. every incarnation is a learning experience that moves us closer to god
DONT TALK - meditation/prayer/repose on divine love and heartbeat of creation. how we connect with the universal mind
I'M WAITING FOR THE DAY - the LOGOS, eternal love even when we turn our back.
LETS GO AWAY FOR AWHILE ...
SLOOP JOHN B - this song is very important to the story arc, its a day in the life of our earthly confines. we desire to hoist up our sails and go home.
GOD ONLY KNOWS - love completes us, gives us reason
LGOYE/HOTYE/IKTAA - ego is an earthly construct. you will lose the fight eventually. thats why we practice meditation, to prepare for next stage of life.
HERE TODAY - dark night of the soul, but our desire for love & connection will persevere, no matter the consequences.
IJWMFTT - haven't we all felt like a stranger here once?
PET SOUNDS (Run James Run) - is this for a james bond movie as brian said was its original intention? or is he referring to James the Just, brother of jesus? i suppose he had to run from the romans...it was documented that James was stoned which would fit with brian's mindset at the time.
CAroline, NO - Carol Mountain was the inspiration. Go tell it on the mountain, that Jesus Christ is born.

Has this been discussed elsewhere? i wouldnt mind reading some thoughts.

Thanks

[Andrew G. Doe]

I distinctly felt my leg being pulled just then...   

[rab2591]

indeed.
_____

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds and Smile?

I know he held prayer sessions with his brothers, and talked about a form of God in interviews, but did he ever talk about his "religion" in-depth?

(I've read books on Brian Wilson/The Beach Boys and have searched threads, but I've only found very basic information on this subject)

[Andrew G. Doe]

indeed.
_____

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds and Smile?

I know he held prayer sessions with his brothers, and talked about a form of God in interviews, but did he ever talk about his "religion" in-depth?

(I've read books on Brian Wilson/The Beach Boys and have searched threads, but I've only found very basic information on this subject)

Brian was raised a Presbyterian - used to attend Mesa Angeles (or some such) church. As for his leanings during the mid sixties, it was pretty well whatever anyone told him about, although a hugely reliable source has informed that his main 'religion du jour' (their phrase) during said span was Subud.

[rab2591]

indeed.
_____

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds and Smile?

I know he held prayer sessions with his brothers, and talked about a form of God in interviews, but did he ever talk about his "religion" in-depth?

(I've read books on Brian Wilson/The Beach Boys and have searched threads, but I've only found very basic information on this subject)

Brian was raised a Presbyterian - used to attend Mesa Angeles (or some such) church. As for his leanings during the mid sixties, it was pretty well whatever anyone told him about, although a hugely reliable source has informed that his main 'religion du jour' (their phrase) during said span was Subud.

Thanks for the info. Quite odd - I wonder where (or from whom) he picked up Subud.

[FUN³]

Brian was raised a Presbyterian - used to attend Mesa Angeles (or some such) church. As for his leanings during the mid sixties, it was pretty well whatever anyone told him about, although a hugely reliable source has informed that his main 'religion du jour' (their phrase) during said span was Subud.

that is hugely interesting, thanks. Lorren Daro must have turned him on to that then?

[Ron]

I must not be initiated yet.

[Andrew G. Doe]

indeed.
_____

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds and Smile?

I know he held prayer sessions with his brothers, and talked about a form of God in interviews, but did he ever talk about his "religion" in-depth?

(I've read books on Brian Wilson/The Beach Boys and have searched threads, but I've only found very basic information on this subject)

Brian was raised a Presbyterian - used to attend Mesa Angeles (or some such) church. As for his leanings during the mid sixties, it was pretty well whatever anyone told him about, although a hugely reliable source has informed that his main 'religion du jour' (their phrase) during said span was Subud.

Thanks for the info. Quite odd - I wonder where (or from whom) he picked up Subud.

To be fair, it was the instant belief of choice for a few stars in those days - John Phillips & Roger McGuinn spring instantly to mind.

[Carrie Marks]

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds

It would seem Brian had a genuine interest in spirituality from a young age hence the tendency to have a 'religion du jour'.  

Although its a philosophy and not a religion, David was raised to follow the teachings of the Rosicrucian Fellowship and its still the closest thing he has to a practicing religion today. Brian was very interested in Jo Ann Marks and her beliefs in metaphysics back in the late 50's - mid 60's and he did study the Cosmo Conception under her guidances and would call her in the middle of the night to ask her spiritual questions.  

Jo Ann was also a psychic whose abilities came from psychometry - which is the ability to pick up vibrations from an object to read its energy and Brian was fascinated by this...she once predicted he would be signed to Capitol Records before he even wrote his first song. The Marks' astrologer / spiritual councilor was a women name J'Nevelyn Terrell - who later became Brian's astrologer during the PS / Smile era.

[rab2591]

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds

It would seem Brian had a genuine interest in spirituality from a young age hence the tendency to have a 'religion du jour'.  

Although its a philosophy and not a religion, David was raised to follow the teachings of the Rosicrucian Fellowship and its still the closest thing he has to a practicing religion today. Brian was very interested in Jo Ann Marks and her beliefs in metaphysics back in the late 50's - mid 60's and he did study the Cosmo Conception under her guidances and would call her in the middle of the night to ask her spiritual questions.  

Jo Ann was also a psychic whose abilities came from psychometry - which is the ability to pick up vibrations from an object to read its energy and Brian was fascinated by this...she once predicted he would be signed to Capitol Records before he even wrote his first song. The Marks' astrologer / spiritual councilor was a women name J'Nevelyn Terrell - who later became Brian's astrologer during the PS / Smile era.

Thanks Carrie! Love the Good Vibrations connection. Do you know if David was ever a part of any religious bull-sessions with Brian? I'd love to be a fly-on-the-wall during his religious discussions.

[FUN³]

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds

It would seem Brian had a genuine interest in spirituality from a young age hence the tendency to have a 'religion du jour'.  

Although its a philosophy and not a religion, David was raised to follow the teachings of the Rosicrucian Fellowship and its still the closest thing he has to a practicing religion today. Brian was very interested in Jo Ann Marks and her beliefs in metaphysics back in the late 50's - mid 60's and he did study the Cosmo Conception under her guidances and would call her in the middle of the night to ask her spiritual questions.  

Jo Ann was also a psychic whose abilities came from psychometry - which is the ability to pick up vibrations from an object to read its energy and Brian was fascinated by this...she once predicted he would be signed to Capitol Records before he even wrote his first song. The Marks' astrologer / spiritual councilor was a women name J'Nevelyn Terrell - who later became Brian's astrologer during the PS / Smile era.

Thank you Carrie! So Brian was exposed to Rosicrucianism?! If he has read the Cosmo Conception or any of Heindel's work, I'm confident that he was almost certainly aware of what he was doing with Pet Sounds (even if he isn't so much nowadays). he was in tune and transmitting. his inner flame was alit!

So perhaps I'm on to something with my interpretation, as rough as it is. i just dont have the skill to impress that feeling into words. I have read the cosmo conception, as well as some of his other work, and i encourage brian wilson fans to do the same, and then listen to pet sounds again 

[Carrie Marks]

Fun:  I don't know if he read the Cosmo Conception cover to cover, but he was definitely exposed to Rosicrucianism in his late teens.

Rab: Being that many years younger than Brian, David was dis-interested at best - embarrassed at worst when it came to his mother and her progressive thinking for the 1950's so he didn't participate in any deep discussion with Brian and Jo Ann.  He later embraced Rosicrucianism on his own in the late 60's when he was working on The Moon. Matt Moore, his partner on the project, was also influenced by Max Heindel.

[rab2591]

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds

It would seem Brian had a genuine interest in spirituality from a young age hence the tendency to have a 'religion du jour'. 

Although its a philosophy and not a religion, David was raised to follow the teachings of the Rosicrucian Fellowship and its still the closest thing he has to a practicing religion today. Brian was very interested in Jo Ann Marks and her beliefs in metaphysics back in the late 50's - mid 60's and he did study the Cosmo Conception under her guidances and would call her in the middle of the night to ask her spiritual questions. 

Jo Ann was also a psychic whose abilities came from psychometry - which is the ability to pick up vibrations from an object to read its energy and Brian was fascinated by this...she once predicted he would be signed to Capitol Records before he even wrote his first song. The Marks' astrologer / spiritual councilor was a women name J'Nevelyn Terrell - who later became Brian's astrologer during the PS / Smile era.

Thank you Carrie! So Brian was exposed to Rosicrucianism?! If he has read the Cosmo Conception or any of Heindel's work, I'm confident that he was almost certainly aware of what he was doing with Pet Sounds (even if he isn't so much nowadays). he was in tune and transmitting. his inner flame was alit!

So perhaps I'm on to something with my interpretation, as rough as it is. i just dont have the skill to impress that feeling into words. I have read the cosmo conception, as well as some of his other work, and i encourage brian wilson fans to do the same, and then listen to pet sounds again 

Asher said that there was no concrete concept plan for the album (rather it just came together, probably subconsciously). There was certainly a spiritual undertone, but as for Brian planning such a religious album (and being aware of it) - well, I highly doubt that that is the case. Asher says that he and Brian mostly talked about girls...hence half the songs are about relationships, two are instrumentals, one about a boat trip, and the rest are about Brian fitting in and trying to get people to see things his way.

[rab2591]

Rab: Being that many years younger than Brian, David was dis-interested at best - embarrassed at worst when it came to his mother and her progressive thinking for the 1950's so he didn't participate in any deep discussion with Brian and Jo Ann.  He later embraced Rosicrucianism on his own in the late 60's when he was working on The Moon. Matt Moore, his partner on the project, was also influenced by Max Heindel.

Ah, I forgot about the age factor. I'm definitely going to order the Cosmo Conception soon.

It must have indeed peeved Brian to be mostly writing songs about surfing and cars when his interests were nearly 180 degrees opposite of that (spirituality, astronomy, astrology, etc). I think Timothy White's book went into detail about how Brian wanted to compose more Bacharach/Gershwin style music - but got pegged into writing surf tunes - thus he eventually combined the two to make a completely different type of music.

[Andrew G. Doe]

It must have indeed peeved Brian to be mostly writing songs about surfing and cars when his interests were nearly 180 degrees opposite of that (spirituality, astronomy, astrology, etc). I think Timothy White's book went into detail about how Brian wanted to compose more Bacharach/Gershwin style music - but got pegged into writing surf tunes - thus he eventually combined the two to make a completely different type of music.

Ah, the old, old canard - Brian wrote surf & car tunes then broke free and out of nowhere came Pet Sounds.

Last surf song - "Don't Back Down", recorded April 29th 1964.

Last car song - "This Car Of Mine", recorded February 7th 1964 (or if I'm feeling generous, "I Get Around", recorded April 2nd 1964)

Brian wasn't 'mostly writing songs about surfing and cars', except for two, maybe three albums in 1963.

[rab2591]

It must have indeed peeved Brian to be mostly writing songs about surfing and cars when his interests were nearly 180 degrees opposite of that (spirituality, astronomy, astrology, etc). I think Timothy White's book went into detail about how Brian wanted to compose more Bacharach/Gershwin style music - but got pegged into writing surf tunes - thus he eventually combined the two to make a completely different type of music.

Ah, the old, old canard - Brian wrote surf & car tunes then broke free and out of nowhere came Pet Sounds.

Last surf song - "Don't Back Down", recorded April 29th 1964.

Last car song - "This Car Of Mine", recorded February 7th 1964 (or if I'm feeling generous, "I Get Around", recorded April 2nd 1964)

Brian wasn't 'mostly writing songs about surfing and cars', except for two, maybe three albums in 1963.

I wasn't talking about Brian's mid-60s Today!/Pet Sounds period. I was reiterating Timothy Whites thoughts on the early Beach Boys period - based on Carrie Marks saying that "Brian had a genuine interest in spirituality from a young age" - thus including the surf/car period.

"Nothing was turning out as he had planned. Brian always imagined he would become a songsmith at the top end of the popular idiom, composing in a vague nether zone somewhere between broadway and hit-parade, and hollywood; between George and Ira Gershwin's "Summertime" and the Four Freshmen's Voices in Modern......now, as a result of the cocky outbursts of his brother Dennis he was now something called a Beach Boy. But Brian wasn't into surfing..."

- Timothy White, The Nearest Faraway Place

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think if it 'peeved' him so much, he'd have moved on from the subject a lot quicker than he did, and not written so many cracking tunes on those topics. Sure, he wrote car/surf songs, but by early '64 he was done with that and even in 1963 was coming up with more spiritual material such as "In My Room", "The Lonely Sea" (I know, Gary Usher claimed it was mostly his) and "Your Summer Dream".

[rab2591]

I think if it 'peeved' him so much, he'd have moved on from the subject a lot quicker than he did, and not written so many cracking tunes on those topics. Sure, he wrote car/surf songs, but by early '64 he was done with that and even in 1963 was coming up with more spiritual material such as "In My Room", "The Lonely Sea" (I know, Gary Usher claimed it was mostly his) and "Your Summer Dream".

Good Point. But with Murry in control for most of that time I can see why he wasn't able to easily break away from the formula. However, your most likely right: he loved the fame and loved seeing his songs fly up the charts. However, White does make it sound like Brian had more in mind than Billboard fame....I'd love to see where White got this idea from.

[bgas]

I think if it 'peeved' him so much, he'd have moved on from the subject a lot quicker than he did, and not written so many cracking tunes on those topics. Sure, he wrote car/surf songs, but by early '64 he was done with that and even in 1963 was coming up with more spiritual material such as "In My Room", "The Lonely Sea" (I know, Gary Usher claimed it was mostly his) and "Your Summer Dream".

I missed this, somehow:Usher claimed Lonely Sea as mostly his?  While he's not here to argue it, He's always struck me as over-reaching/ over claiming based on what he did.  Lots of smoke, but too much trying to take Brian's credit for me.

[guitarfool2002]

Getting back to Subud, there are some hard facts and evidence out there which supports Brian's involvement with Subud. Or at least some evidence he was surrounded by it. I know some people here already saw it but on another forum I copied/pasted an old newspaper gossip blurb from the Smile era (late 66) which stated Brian was working on a religious composition for his group of friends called the "Subdubs". It's not unreasonable to assume the columnist erred and it should have read "Subuds", unless the group of friends was calling themselves "Subdubs" as a play on the word. If anyone wants to see it I'll gladly copy it here.

More telling is a piece of audio from the chanting material where Van Dyke Parks makes a joke using the word "Latihan". A Latihan in the study of Subud is the moment of enlightenment which the practice of that faith strives for, and at that time I'd imagine only those close to it would know that term enough to use it in a conversation (or a joke). So Van Dyke knew it, yet it sounds like Vosse was incredulous, and said "A WHAT?", to which Anderle repeated "a Latihan". Brian doesn't comment.

Van Dyke was traveling in those Hollywood circles in 1966 which were into studying Subud and it got to be kind of a hip course of study, much like TM after The Beatles became students and very publicly followed the Maharishi to India, along with of course Mike Love who was one of the few to hang on to the studies after many thought the Maharishi had been exposed as a fraud looking for high-income and high-profile stars to back him.

Even if he only dabbled in Subud for a short time and then moved on as he had done with TM, there is almost no doubt Brian was involved. To pinpoint it to one person, say Loren, Van Dyke, or even David Anderle or some unknown scenester who Brian was hanging with is a much tougher question to answer unless someone says who brought it into Brian's world. But in certain circles in LA in 1966 it was the thing to do.

[rab2591]

Thanks guitarfool!

Utterly fascinating - all this stuff. If it isn't any trouble could you upload that newspaper blurb to this thread? I think it would add a lot.

What about Post-SMiLE - has Brian ever talked about what his spiritual interests were then. What books did he read (if any) while lying in bed?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Even if he only dabbled in Subud for a short time and then moved on as he had done with TM, there is almost no doubt Brian was involved.

No doubt whatsoever.

[guitarfool2002]

Thanks guitarfool!

Utterly fascinating - all this stuff. If it isn't any trouble could you upload that newspaper blurb to this thread? I think it would add a lot.

What about Post-SMiLE - has Brian ever talked about what his spiritual interests were then. What books did he read (if any) while lying in bed?

It's so interesting to connect the dots with words like "Latihan" - not that we'll ever get all the inside jokes and comments but it's worth the effort to see what's behind all of this.

Here is the newspaper clipping:

[rab2591]

Is that "Latihan" reference on the Psychedelic Sounds boot? I try not to subject myself to that boot too often but I may have to in order to find this!

Also, another thing I found interesting: yesterday I was listening to Secret Smile, and the Vega-table argument started playing, towards the end of it Hal Blaine starts talking about how planets are going to be aligned that night and weird things are going to happen. Then Brian starts talking about how his dogs were acting weird - probably because of it the alignment. I wonder if Brian is still into astronomy today.

[buddhahat]

PET SOUNDS (Run James Run) - is this for a james bond movie as brian said was its original intention? or is he referring to James the Just, brother of jesus? i suppose he had to run from the romans...it was documented that James was stoned which would fit with brian's mindset at the time.
CAroline, NO - Carol Mountain was the inspiration. Go tell it on the mountain, that Jesus Christ is born.

Priceless