SMiLE Sessions box set!

[dmcguire70]

Honestly, what the heck is an "American Gothic trip"?

Who cares, though? Do you need Van Dyke to explain that to be convinced that "Cabinessence", "Heroes and Villains", "Surf's Up", and etc. are good songs?  Mike's only creatives input, from what we can tell, is to turn all songs into either boy/girl stories or tales about cars and amusement parks. Mike has gotten so overrated here it's not funny. Sure, he was a good singer and a good, albeit artistically limited lyricist... but he wasn't irreplaceable. "Little Duece Coupe" and "Surfer Girl" were hits without Mike's lyrics. And ny the time of Smile, he wasn't even singing on all the hits anymore. "Do You Wanna Dance", "Help Me Rhonda", "Barbara Ann", and "Good Vibrations" all had one thing in common: no Mike Love leads.  Yes, there was "California Girls" and "Dance, Dance, Dance", but you get the picture: Mike was being marginalized. That was his real problem. The guy was and is pure ego.

I'm not the biggest Mike Love supporter or fan either and love the SMiLE music, but i think Van Dyke should have just told him what the songs ment   so Mike could understand the music or at least kinda it accept to help finish the album. SMiLE has a wonderful concept, when understood fully, that is hard to hate by anyone.

I think that some of Van Dykes lyrics on SMilE weren't necessarily meant to make sense. You can write lyrics that are complete nonsense ,but sometimes it's the way the words are put together that makes them sound so good. John Lennon wrote a couple of songs in which he admitted the lyrics were complete nonsense  such as- I Am The Walrus, which BTW is a track that i love.
I think Mike was being quite pedantic towards Van Dyke on the Cabinessence lyric thing IMO!

[The Heartical Don]

Honestly, what the heck is an "American Gothic trip"?

Who cares, though? Do you need Van Dyke to explain that to be convinced that "Cabinessence", "Heroes and Villains", "Surf's Up", and etc. are good songs?  Mike's only creatives input, from what we can tell, is to turn all songs into either boy/girl stories or tales about cars and amusement parks. Mike has gotten so overrated here it's not funny. Sure, he was a good singer and a good, albeit artistically limited lyricist... but he wasn't irreplaceable. "Little Duece Coupe" and "Surfer Girl" were hits without Mike's lyrics. And ny the time of Smile, he wasn't even singing on all the hits anymore. "Do You Wanna Dance", "Help Me Rhonda", "Barbara Ann", and "Good Vibrations" all had one thing in common: no Mike Love leads.  Yes, there was "California Girls" and "Dance, Dance, Dance", but you get the picture: Mike was being marginalized. That was his real problem. The guy was and is pure ego.

I'm not the biggest Mike Love supporter or fan either and love the SMiLE music, but i think Van Dyke should have just told him what the songs ment   so Mike could understand the music or at least kinda it accept to help finish the album. SMiLE has a wonderful concept, when understood fully, that is hard to hate by anyone.

I think that some of Van Dykes lyrics on SMilE weren't necessarily meant to make sense. You can write lyrics that are complete nonsense ,but sometimes it's the way the words are put together that makes them sound good. John Lennon wrote a couple of songs in which he admitted the lyrics were complete nonsense  such as- I Am The Walrus, which is a track that i love.
I think Mike was being quite pedantic towards Van Dyke on the Cabinessence lyric thing IMO!

Agree. I guess Mike felt control slipping from him, esp. after the Pet Sounds experience. But there, he had little to take on Asher about. The poetic obscurity of Parks' words offered him gun powder.

[drbeachboy]

I don't think this is about control as much as it was about the band  measuring it's success through Top 40 radio. There was nothing on Smile that would make them comfortable that the album would be a big seller or that there were any tracks that would make it on the radio. For the band, I'm sure that Smile was uncharted territory that they were nervous to travel.

[The Heartical Don]

I don't think this is about control as much as it was about the band  measuring it's success through Top 40 radio. There was nothing on Smile that would make them comfortable that the album would be a big seller or that there were any tracks that would make it on the radio. For the band, I'm sure that Smile was uncharted territory that they were nervous to travel.

...eh, but how does that square with Denny, then probably seen as the least 'artistic' of the team, defending the project so strongly? Or rather, singing the praises of SMiLE so much that he placed it above Pet Sounds? Honestly, apart from Mike's derogatory questions/remarks, I can't think of other members being overtly critical or skeptical, or nervous.

[SMiLE Brian]

Honestly, what the heck is an "American Gothic trip"?

Who cares, though? Do you need Van Dyke to explain that to be convinced that "Cabinessence", "Heroes and Villains", "Surf's Up", and etc. are good songs?  Mike's only creatives input, from what we can tell, is to turn all songs into either boy/girl stories or tales about cars and amusement parks. Mike has gotten so overrated here it's not funny. Sure, he was a good singer and a good, albeit artistically limited lyricist... but he wasn't irreplaceable. "Little Duece Coupe" and "Surfer Girl" were hits without Mike's lyrics. And ny the time of Smile, he wasn't even singing on all the hits anymore. "Do You Wanna Dance", "Help Me Rhonda", "Barbara Ann", and "Good Vibrations" all had one thing in common: no Mike Love leads.  Yes, there was "California Girls" and "Dance, Dance, Dance", but you get the picture: Mike was being marginalized. That was his real problem. The guy was and is pure ego.

I'm not the biggest Mike Love supporter or fan either and love the SMiLE music, but i think Van Dyke should have just told him what the songs ment   so Mike could understand the music or at least kinda it accept to help finish the album. SMiLE has a wonderful concept, when understood fully, that is hard to hate by anyone.

I think that some of Van Dykes lyrics on SMilE weren't necessarily meant to make sense. You can write lyrics that are complete nonsense ,but sometimes it's the way the words are put together that makes them sound so good. John Lennon wrote a couple of songs in which he admitted the lyrics were complete nonsense  such as- I Am The Walrus, which BTW is a track that i love.
I think Mike was being quite pedantic towards Van Dyke on the Cabinessence lyric thing IMO!

Van Dyke could of told Mike a made up answer with fancy words about what the words mean, just to deal with the Mike never accepting the songs or art direction. But like Fishmonk said, there is more to the story beside the lyrics battle between Mike and Van Dyke.

[drbeachboy]

I don't think this is about control as much as it was about the band  measuring it's success through Top 40 radio. There was nothing on Smile that would make them comfortable that the album would be a big seller or that there were any tracks that would make it on the radio. For the band, I'm sure that Smile was uncharted territory that they were nervous to travel.

...eh, but how does that square with Denny, then probably seen as the least 'artistic' of the team, defending the project so strongly? Or rather, singing the praises of SMiLE so much that he placed it above Pet Sounds? Honestly, apart from Mike's derogatory questions/remarks, I can't think of other members being overtly critical or skeptical, or nervous.

Liking the material and whether thinking that it would be acceptable to the masses are two different things. Most of us love Beach Boys material that the average Joe has no time for. As for the other guys, if the story about the vote to do Smile as individual tracks is true, that tells me that they wanted to stick as close to convention as possible. Smile was not commercial, and in 1966-67 with finicky rock and roll fans, that was taking a very big chance. As it turned out, the singles are the only thing that kept them afloat in the US. Album sales certainly weren't what they were pre-Pet Sounds. When it comes right down to it, popularity and making money is just as important or more so than artistry.

[drbeachboy]

double post

[Peter Reum]

Just the reaction to one interpretation of America Gothic shows the complxity of trying to discren the "meaning" of Van Dyke`s lyrics. Both Brian and Van Dyke were huge Poe aficionados. But then again, there is that theme of Westword Expansiom ans plowing the prairie that comes up in Smile too. Mike, in my opinion, was pissed because Brian had told him they would resume their writing partnership after Pet Sounds, and instead, Brian retained Van Dyke.

[The Heartical Don]

Just the reaction to one interpretation of America Gothic shows the complxity of trying to discren the "meaning" of Van Dyke`s lyrics. Both Brian and Van Dyke were huge Poe aficionados. But then again, there is that theme of Westword Expansiom ans plowing the prairie that comes up in Smile too. Mike, in my opinion, was pissed because Brian had told him they would resume their writing partnership after Pet Sounds, and instead, Brian retained Van Dyke.

As always, thank you Peter. This makes eminent sense, and I'd gladly trade in my layman's conjectures on the matter.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't think this is about control as much as it was about the band  measuring it's success through Top 40 radio. There was nothing on Smile that would make them comfortable that the album would be a big seller or that there were any tracks that would make it on the radio. For the band, I'm sure that Smile was uncharted territory that they were nervous to travel.

Good Vibrations was the single that would drive initial sales for the Smile album just as it did later on Smiley Smile. Heroes And Villains was being announced and anticipated as a new single release for months from the album with picture sleeves and promotions in the works, and when Brian decided to take that one back for reworking, Vegetables was mentioned as a single. Then Heroes did come out, just months after it was originally planned.

So how could a band who had recently traveled around the world as heroes playing a "new sound" that even eclipsed the Beatles in popularity be doubting a single? I'd think if Good Vibrations was being lavished with praise and they were building their live setlists around it and a handful of Pet Sounds singles, and Brian was working on variations on that "new sound" which made the band a ton of money, what exactly were they worried about?

That makes at least 2 singles to drive sales on an upcoming album, one in the bag and ready to go and one still being sold as the next single (promoted, hyped, etc.), and one in reserve on the shelf.

[guitarfool2002]

I'd like to pose one question to those speculating about Mike Love and Van Dyke and all things related in this thread.

How would one explain the portrayal Brian, Smile, Good Vibrations, Van Dyke, and the entire 1966-67 era received in the 2000 TV movie "An American Family"?

For those not as familiar with the film, I won't comment for now on the exact content, but take 10 minutes or so to watch the Pet Sounds through Smile section of that film. Understand that a lot of effort was spent trying to get the details of the costumes, sets, equipment, clothing, etc to look accurate to the period down to Mike Love's Moog Ribbon Controller and the cut of his Pet Sounds-era beard, and for the most part the original songs and session tapes of the Beach Boys were used in the film to add another layer of authenticity.

So this film came from "official" Beach Boys channels, please consider that when watching. And that portrayal of Brian and everything happening around him during that time period had to come from someone's ideas of what took place and how things happened, and perhaps an opinion of that era which those someones wanted to put forth in public.

I'll ask it again, how can that "official" film portrayal be explained and/or justified in relation to the recent theories and speculations in this thread?

[drbeachboy]

I'm not sure how a Smile version single of H&V would have done on Top 40 radio, but I know that the H&V that was released did not get great airplay everywhere across the US. In Philadelphia where I grew up, I only remember hearing it a few times. I doubt Vegetables would have been a Top 10 hit. Both songs are fabulous to BB fans, but not quite at the same level for the average fan. There is nothing on Smile hit-wise that comes close to GV. As history shows, nothing that they released did as well, until Kokomo. Now that tells you what radio listeners are listening for.

[Mikie]

A "Vegetables" single would have bombed, the same way the next single "Gettin' Hungry" did.  What in the hell were they thinking??  If "Heroes" got minimal airplay, "Vegetables" would have gotten ZERO airplay. I use to think it was sabatoge against Capitol because of the impending lawsuit. Can't even believe they did that song live! I don't think the "Laughing Gravy" version of "Vegetables" went anywhere either, did it?

[guitarfool2002]

I'm not sure how a Smile version single of H&V would have done on Top 40 radio, but I know that the H&V that was released did not get great airplay everywhere across the US. In Philadelphia where I grew up, I only remember hearing it a few times. I doubt Vegetables would have been a Top 10 hit. Both songs are fabulous to BB fans, but not quite at the same level for the average fan. There is nothing on Smile hit-wise that comes close to GV. As history shows, nothing that they released did as well, until Kokomo. Now that tells you what radio listeners are listening for.

You're mentioning the H&V single from Smiley Smile which was released in July 1967 after word was given that Smile had been scrapped, which is different from saying the Beach Boys were worried about having a successful single on Smile when the album was still being worked on in 1966-67. A lot of the hype and the buzz had simply worn off during the Summer Of Love, dominated by Sgt Pepper.

One of the points I made was that in the wake of Good Vibrations, a #1 smash top 40 hit to be included on Smile, there would be little doubt any follow-up single would sell at least enough to go top 10 in the first half of 1967. And in many markets Heroes did go top 10, even though it was nowhere near Good Vibrations.

I grew up in the Philly 'Burbs myself, and while I wasn't there in the 60's I was there in the 80's to be interested in pop radio, and I can say comparing 1967 to 1988-89 is beyond apples and oranges. Even Philly top-40 radio in 1985, let's say, was a different universe from radio in 1989, a span of a few years. It went from a powerhouse station like Hot Hits 98 to watered-down stuff like Salt N Pepa and endless Bon Jovi records in a few months' time...very sad time for fans of good pop radio, it all coincided with the demise of the 45rpm single, too.

P.S. I've been trying to get my hands on a few Hy Lit airchecks from the mid 60's, I always liked his sound and style.

[Quincy]

I'd like to pose one question to those speculating about Mike Love and Van Dyke and all things related in this thread.

How would one explain the portrayal Brian, Smile, Good Vibrations, Van Dyke, and the entire 1966-67 era received in the 2000 TV movie "An American Family"?

For those not as familiar with the film, I won't comment for now on the exact content, but take 10 minutes or so to watch the Pet Sounds through Smile section of that film. Understand that a lot of effort was spent trying to get the details of the costumes, sets, equipment, clothing, etc to look accurate to the period down to Mike Love's Moog Ribbon Controller and the cut of his Pet Sounds-era beard, and for the most part the original songs and session tapes of the Beach Boys were used in the film to add another layer of authenticity.

So this film came from "official" Beach Boys channels, please consider that when watching. And that portrayal of Brian and everything happening around him during that time period had to come from someone's ideas of what took place and how things happened, and perhaps an opinion of that era which those someones wanted to put forth in public.

I'll ask it again, how can that "official" film portrayal be explained and/or justified in relation to the recent theories and speculations in this thread?

You're kidding..right?..

[Mike's Beard]

I wonder if Smile had been completed and released in place of Smiley at the exact date that Smiley eventually surfaced if it would have sold more copies than Smiley actually did? Something tells me that their moment had passed and it would have still flopped.

[drbeachboy]

I wasn't trying to compare. Radio listeners want catchy, hook filled tunes. There was/is nothing on Smile that is anything like that or pop radio friendly except for GV. As for Heroes, as I said I'm not quite sure what the Smile version would ultimately become, but the basic verses and track would have been similar to what was released. Overall, I think it was not the great hit some thought it would be. Watch concert footage beginning in the early 70's onward when H&V is played, you can tell most of the audience is not familiar with it at all. GV would have initially made Smile sell well, but with a lack of a solid followup, it would have had to go over big time on FM Progressive stations. I guess my whole point is, is that the band wanted to progress, but still have a solid presence on AM radio. A tight balancing act between being popular and artistic.

[guitarfool2002]

I'd like to pose one question to those speculating about Mike Love and Van Dyke and all things related in this thread.

How would one explain the portrayal Brian, Smile, Good Vibrations, Van Dyke, and the entire 1966-67 era received in the 2000 TV movie "An American Family"?

For those not as familiar with the film, I won't comment for now on the exact content, but take 10 minutes or so to watch the Pet Sounds through Smile section of that film. Understand that a lot of effort was spent trying to get the details of the costumes, sets, equipment, clothing, etc to look accurate to the period down to Mike Love's Moog Ribbon Controller and the cut of his Pet Sounds-era beard, and for the most part the original songs and session tapes of the Beach Boys were used in the film to add another layer of authenticity.

So this film came from "official" Beach Boys channels, please consider that when watching. And that portrayal of Brian and everything happening around him during that time period had to come from someone's ideas of what took place and how things happened, and perhaps an opinion of that era which those someones wanted to put forth in public.

I'll ask it again, how can that "official" film portrayal be explained and/or justified in relation to the recent theories and speculations in this thread?

You're kidding..right?..

Pardon? Was my post not clear enough? Watch the 10-15 minute segment in that film dedicated to 1966-67. Ask yourself: Whose version of events did you just watch? And consider why someone would want to put that image of this era out there.

[onkster]

Don't forget that before very long, radio listeners began to change--they certainly became able to tolerate jammy material that stretched into the double-digit play length, so why not something like SMiLE? Once again, it may have been just a hair ahead of its time.

And right now, I'm gonna contradict my own argument somewhat: FM listeners became tolerant--even embracing--of long-form stuff. AM listeners remained with the 3-minute single.

The main exception to that that I can think of was Sgt. Pepper. I remember hearing nearly all the cuts played on AM radios constantly that summer. And this was in Iowa. On AM stations. From an album that had no singles. Things were changing.

So, in the end: who the hell knows?

[SMiLE Brian]

I'd like to pose one question to those speculating about Mike Love and Van Dyke and all things related in this thread.

How would one explain the portrayal Brian, Smile, Good Vibrations, Van Dyke, and the entire 1966-67 era received in the 2000 TV movie "An American Family"?

For those not as familiar with the film, I won't comment for now on the exact content, but take 10 minutes or so to watch the Pet Sounds through Smile section of that film. Understand that a lot of effort was spent trying to get the details of the costumes, sets, equipment, clothing, etc to look accurate to the period down to Mike Love's Moog Ribbon Controller and the cut of his Pet Sounds-era beard, and for the most part the original songs and session tapes of the Beach Boys were used in the film to add another layer of authenticity.

So this film came from "official" Beach Boys channels, please consider that when watching. And that portrayal of Brian and everything happening around him during that time period had to come from someone's ideas of what took place and how things happened, and perhaps an opinion of that era which those someones wanted to put forth in public.

I'll ask it again, how can that "official" film portrayal be explained and/or justified in relation to the recent theories and speculations in this thread?

You're kidding..right?..

Pardon? Was my post not clear enough? Watch the 10-15 minute segment in that film dedicated to 1966-67. Ask yourself: Whose version of events did you just watch? And consider why someone would want to put that image of this era out there.

That movie was a missed opportunity to tell the true story of what happened all-around. It could of incorperated all the complex issues behind SMiLE's cancelation and not make Brian look so bad. All the background problems,  if put into the film,  would of made a heck of a better and fair story.

[guitarfool2002]

Don't forget that before very long, radio listeners began to change--they certainly became able to tolerate jammy material that stretched into the double-digit play length, so why not something like SMiLE? Once again, it may have been just a hair ahead of its time.

And right now, I'm gonna contradict my own argument somewhat: FM listeners became tolerant--even embracing--of long-form stuff. AM listeners remained with the 3-minute single.

The main exception to that that I can think of was Sgt. Pepper. I remember hearing nearly all the cuts played on AM radios constantly that summer. And this was in Iowa. On AM stations. From an album that had no singles. Things were changing.

So, in the end: who the hell knows?

Let's not rewrite history entirely here with what was played versus what wasn't played, I agree with Onkster's words above that times were changing and Spring/Summer 1967 was *the* turning point for pop music. As proof I have a sampling of airchecks from various stations around the country in 1967 and among the songs played were album cuts from Magical Mystery Tour, Sgt Pepper, The Monkees' Headquarters, and other "albums" beyond the obvious singles.

I will concede the local markets had a major impact on a song's success, and what played big in LA could totally die in a market like Boston.

I have several examples of LA stations still playing Pet Sounds album cuts in 1967, songs like "Here Today" on AM radio formats.

[drbeachboy]

Don't forget that before very long, radio listeners began to change--they certainly became able to tolerate jammy material that stretched into the double-digit play length, so why not something like SMiLE? Once again, it may have been just a hair ahead of its time.

And right now, I'm gonna contradict my own argument somewhat: FM listeners became tolerant--even embracing--of long-form stuff. AM listeners remained with the 3-minute single.

The main exception to that that I can think of was Sgt. Pepper. I remember hearing nearly all the cuts played on AM radios constantly that summer. And this was in Iowa. On AM stations. From an album that had no singles. Things were changing.

So, in the end: who the hell knows?

AM might have played the album or a track here and there at night or late night, but heavy rotation of the top 40 was still the main format throughout most, if not all of the major US stations. WMMR FM in Philadelphia was my first experience with the long-form format. From my recollection, I never heard a Beach Boys song on that station until the Surf's Up album in 1971. Smile would have had to hit the hipsters pretty hard for the Beach Boys to gain acceptance in the late 60's.

[RONDEMON]

An aside -
Has anyone who DOESN'T own the Mojo 45 heard the new Wonderful mix?
Cabinessence sounds pretty great from what I've heard too.

[guitarfool2002]

Some proof is in the audio tapes. I also thought top 40 was a much more restrictive format in 1967 until I heard with my own ears how wild some of the playlists were. Again, it could also be a radical difference from city to city with what was played, but hearing "Blue Jay Way" and "Here Today" on the same drive time playlist on an LA station from Dec. '67, then "A Day In The Life" shortly after "Shades Of Gray" from July '67 on another station's afternoon drive time shift was an eye-opener. Or ear-opener...

[drbeachboy]

I listened to WFIL AM here in Philly and the only songs that got decent airplay after Good Vibrations was Darlin' in late 67-early 68, Do It Again in 1968 and I Can Hear Music in 1969. After that, nothing, and I mean nothing. Fred Vail's story checks out with me, because they couldn't buy time on AM radio in Philly.