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Author Topic: History of Mike's reputation  (Read 63349 times)
The Heartical Don
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« Reply #275 on: January 13, 2010, 03:11:25 AM »

It may have boosted the sales of 20 Golden Greats from 1976. Endless Summer already peaked. Spirit Of America and Good Vibrations Best Of The Beach Boys  probably sold more because of the Chicago joint tour.

Cheers for clarifying. Another ultra-deep BBs mystery solved... Wink
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #276 on: January 13, 2010, 04:11:21 AM »

We are down to blaming Mike for other people's words and blaming Murry for Brian's credit and the band [or Capitol?] for its own success which was somehow not success, sssssssssoooooooooooooo....that's a pretty good 14 pages work.

So just to be clear [giggle],  the theory is that Murry was in control of who Brian credited with the songwriting. Brian signed these papers and had double responsibility as both co-publisher and co-author to get this right. Murry didn't profit from fiddling the credit for songwriting but Brian did. Re. the Murry's letter draft: I should read this agian but too lazy, I don't remember Murry wanting anyone out of the band for publishing reasons.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, Brian pushed around Capitol Records, managed high power musicians by the car load, managed an international touring act, had a whole 8 page letter drafted about how not under his father's control he was but some how we are thinking Brian can credit strangers for songwriting but he can't manage to credit his cousin.

Of course as always we don't know what credit was claimed or how much was granted or for what and we assume Tony Asher was right in whatever it was  and Mike was over-credited for one song out of 30+ after 30 years.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 04:14:14 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #277 on: January 13, 2010, 09:14:11 AM »


Brian had exactly nothing to do with any aspect of "the Beach Boys biggest single"... and Mike wrote very little of the lyric.

"That's where we used to go" to, "That's where we want to go." I think he also tweaked a few location names.
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Meade
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« Reply #278 on: January 13, 2010, 02:35:10 PM »

My earlier reply was a bit over-critical of Mike, and frankly I also think Brian deserves some criticism too, "mental illness" or not. I think Brian does, as has been stated earlier, a tendency to play the victim. Sure Mike didn't like Smile and didn't think it was a good direction to go in... I doubt even he wanted the entire project to just collapse, that's a bit extremist. I'm sure all Mike wanted was a bit of compromise... "do your songs Brian but let's change these lyrics so it doesn't freak out the fans." Fact is, Brian didn't have to collapse the project and then go into creative hibernation just because, in his own words "Mike didn't like it" (although I seriously doubt that's the main reason). He could have just released the finished tracks as the band was probably expecting him to do, let it sink or swim however history would have it, and then gone in a new direction. I've heard Brian contradict himself in interview, someone asked him if he blamed anyone for the collapse of Smile and he said "no, I blame myself, and drugs." And then like 30 seconds later he's blaming Mike.. "Reasons I didn't finish Smile... 1. Mike didn't like it." And I'm not too keen on his whole "giving drugs to the kids" episode either. So frankly, Brian annoys me sometimes as well.

At least when Mike makes wrong decisions he usually is doing it for genuine reasons... he genuinely wants the band to prosper--whether or not that happens is another story. Brian on the other hand seems to have actually tried to sabotage the band multiple times either out of personal problems or just out of spite. Some of his later antics and songwriting almost seem to be trying to do that. Unless he honestly thinks recording, re-recording, and re-re-recording various versions of "Shortnin' Bread" in the late 70's was going to be the splash they needed. I think he holds back a lot of good material just because he's not confident enough to be successful and doesn't want to do anything totally mind-blowing because he doesn't want any more worshipers. In that, he lets the personal issues get in the way of making good music... despite the fact that I think "Love You" and "Adult Child" still have quite a bit of charm.

Don't get me wrong, I'm nestled firmly in the so-called "Brian camp" for his awkward and interesting musical ideas and his sweeping personal statements that I think anyone with a pulse could relate with, but I'm no worshiper.

This is, of course, entirely my opinion.
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KokoMoses
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« Reply #279 on: January 13, 2010, 03:37:30 PM »

Well, this is what seperates you from what is referred to as a "Brianista" .... Though, I dislike that term, because you almost can't be a Beach Boys fan without being a Brianista to a certain extent. I mean, the man is simply awesome!

But, in my mind at least, the term "Brianista" refers to that segment of Beach Boys fans who aren't really Beach Boys fans but worship the concept of Brian Wilson as the genius who singlehandedly created/produced/wrote/sang everything that they consider great/good in their selective compartmentalizing of the Beach Boys catalog. They don't like or appreciate the fact that the story is a lot more complicated and that the blood sweat and tears of others were involved to a great extent in why we love The Beach Boys. And Mike Love happens to be the great big pink elephant in the Beach Boys universe. He's the great satan who defines what the Brianistas try and deny. People simply don't like the man and all he represents and will hang onto that opinion no matter how many pages of well rounded discussion might be wasted.

Granted, I absolutely do not think that this type of Brianista is anywhere to be found on this board.  Grin
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Wirestone
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« Reply #280 on: January 13, 2010, 03:56:40 PM »

Not that simple. It is possible to dislike the man while still appreciating his contribution as a lyricist and front man in the glory days. I've made my personal feelings about Mike clear -- but that doesn't mean I deny what he's contributed to the group.

But no, he's not the cause of Brian Wilson's problems. No person is the cause of Brian Wilson's problems (well, dad is dead, so make that no living person).
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bgas
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« Reply #281 on: January 13, 2010, 04:58:01 PM »

Not that simple. It is possible to dislike the man while still appreciating his contribution as a lyricist and front man in the glory days. I've made my personal feelings about Mike clear -- but that doesn't mean I deny what he's contributed to the group.

But no, he's not the cause of Brian Wilson's problems. No person is the cause of Brian Wilson's problems (well, dad is dead, so make that no living person).

But, But, maybe Murry wasn't the cause; maybe Audree was the cause. It's her fault after all that Murry "brutalized" her sons. If she had stood up and made certain Murry didn't do any of the rotten, low-down disgusting things he did,to his own sons for crying out loud, they might have all grown to be well adjusted adults.
Talent-less hacks, probably; but well adjusted.
So let's not be putting all of the blame on Murry. 
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adamghost
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« Reply #282 on: January 13, 2010, 05:19:11 PM »

Also, can none of you songwriters help me out with this previous inquiry?

"2. Who would profit from this supposed songwriting credit tampering? Wouldn't the publisher's cut be separate from the songwriter's cut and remain the same regardless of who, or how many, was credited with the songwriting? In other words, there would be no economic advantage to the publisher for adding or subtracting the numbers of songwriters on the paperwork but there would be an advantage/disadvantage for the songwriters. Or do I have that wrong? I'd be interested to hear from those who actually know about this sort thing."

Thanks.

It depends.  In theory, you've got it about right.  But the BBs controlled their own publishing, so if Brian was suing to regain his publishing rights (as a opposed to his songwriting rights) then there's probably a legal theory that allows Mike to claim part of the publishing too.  It all depends on how this stuff was handled and I just don't know enough to say.  But basically, any time you create a song, you own the songwriting and publishing.  It was commonplace in those days to sell the publishing and keep the songwriting, but the BBs were unusual in that they kept the publishing (or, more accurately, Murry did).
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KokoMoses
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« Reply #283 on: January 13, 2010, 05:25:10 PM »

Adam, do you know to what extent Murry's sale of Sea Of Tunes damaged the BBs $-wise at the time?
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« Reply #284 on: January 13, 2010, 05:35:10 PM »

I hope you don't mind me replying to the question for Adam. In 1969 the Beach Boys catalog was not selling much in the USA. Europe was a different story. I would think that (if it was under the Sea Of Tunes umbrella) what they lost most in 1969-70 was the publishing money from their overseas record sales. In 1970 they had a UK hits collection that did very well.
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KokoMoses
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« Reply #285 on: January 13, 2010, 05:37:45 PM »

That's awful Sad
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Jason
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« Reply #286 on: January 14, 2010, 04:06:53 PM »

Brian Wilson is the cause of Brian Wilson's problems.
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Surfer Joe
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« Reply #287 on: January 14, 2010, 04:34:55 PM »

Brian Wilson is the cause of Brian Wilson's problems.

Totally agree.  All this stuff about mental illness, abuse, and manipulation was just cooked up to make Mike look bad. He should have just rubbed some dirt on it and kept playing. LOL
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Wirestone
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« Reply #288 on: January 14, 2010, 05:11:04 PM »

No, it's easier to blame Brian Wilson (or Mike) for Brian Wilson's problems than acknowledging that mental illness is cruel and (at least in the 60s-70s) not especially treatable. We don't like to think the world can be fundamentally unfair. How many of us blame the poor or homeless for their troubles, for example? We know in general that bad things happen to good people. But when it comes to specific people, we have a hard time accepting it. They must have done something wrong. They deserve it. That means that bad things can't happen to us.
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« Reply #289 on: January 14, 2010, 05:24:43 PM »

Brian Wilson is the cause of Brian Wilson's problems.

So it's Brian's fault that his dad abused him right? It's Brian's fault that he became mentally ill (dumbass me, I thought depression was caused by  a chemical imbalance in your brain, right?)

Jason, < censored >.  I am amazed people take you seriously.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:26:53 AM by SMiLE-Holland » Logged
KokoMoses
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« Reply #290 on: January 14, 2010, 05:35:43 PM »

I think he's just trying to say that Brian Wilson is the cause of Brian Wilson's problems when it comes to the Beach Boys!

Which is certainly true to a large extent.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 05:39:26 PM by erikdavid5000 » Logged
Surfer Joe
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« Reply #291 on: January 14, 2010, 05:45:03 PM »

You know who else is kind of a bitch?  Helen Keller.  I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for her early years.
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« Reply #292 on: January 14, 2010, 05:59:20 PM »

You know who else is kind of a bitch?  Helen Keller.  I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for her early years.
And Marlee Matlin, too.  She totally did not deserve her Oscar.  Especially when William Hurt did ALL of the acting work in Children of a Lesser God and got jack sh*t in regards to recognition.
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Surfer Joe
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« Reply #293 on: January 14, 2010, 06:16:24 PM »

Agree.  Can't hear, Marlee?  Or won't hear? 
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KokoMoses
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« Reply #294 on: January 14, 2010, 06:17:39 PM »

Hey, Mike spent some time in a padded room himself! Can we include his name on your sympathy cards too?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 06:39:27 PM by erikdavid5000 » Logged
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« Reply #295 on: January 14, 2010, 06:30:31 PM »

Brian Wilson is the cause of Brian Wilson's problems.

So it's Brian's fault that his dad abused him right? It's Brian's fault that he became mentally ill (dumbass me, I thought depression was caused by  a chemical imbalance in your brain, right?)

Jason, < censored >.   I am amazed people take you seriously.

The drug use I would say yes, but everything else no. I don't think anyone asks for mental illness.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:26:23 AM by SMiLE-Holland » Logged
Dancing Bear
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« Reply #296 on: January 14, 2010, 06:43:09 PM »

Hey, Mike spent some time in a padded room himself! Can we include his name on your sympathy cards too?
LOL

Ok, we can close the thread now.  LOL
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adamghost
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« Reply #297 on: January 14, 2010, 06:59:07 PM »

I hope you don't mind me replying to the question for Adam. In 1969 the Beach Boys catalog was not selling much in the USA. Europe was a different story. I would think that (if it was under the Sea Of Tunes umbrella) what they lost most in 1969-70 was the publishing money from their overseas record sales. In 1970 they had a UK hits collection that did very well.

Better answer than I would have given, actually.

Of course, once ENDLESS SUMMER hit, it became obvious that it was a DISASTROUS decision.  IIRC Murry sold SOT for $700,000.  Now consider the value of those copyrights in commercials, repackages, movie and TV placements, cover versions...mind boggling.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 07:00:01 PM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #298 on: January 14, 2010, 07:14:43 PM »

Hey, Mike spent some time in a padded room himself! Can we include his name on your sympathy cards too?

Mike chose to fast.
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KokoMoses
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« Reply #299 on: January 14, 2010, 07:31:56 PM »

Brian chose to take drugs...... by the boatload
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