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Author Topic: The Wilson/Paley Sessions  (Read 18331 times)
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« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2022, 03:27:05 PM »

And I think Carl would NOT have gone along with it, based on what I know about the man.

He may not have had a direct decision to make, based on how the business stuff was being structured. The question probably would have been not so much "Will Carl vote to kick Al out?", and more "Will Carl stay with Mike's licensed band once Al is squeezed out?"
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« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2022, 04:13:37 PM »

What transpired in 1998 happened because Carl wasn't there to object.

I'll be honest tho, I really don't have the energy to pursue this particular topic further...
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« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2022, 04:31:16 PM »

Nor me.
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« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2022, 04:42:50 PM »

The problem is that none of these eras are comparable. The Beach Boys were *never* going to have a "hit single" in 2012. It just doesn't work that way. A good showing on the album charts and good album reviews was the *only* success their studio material was going to see in 2012. And given the status of things in 2012 (being a long dormant studio band while also having a "version" out on tour every year *not* doing new stuff, plus not a lot of push from the label), the album did quite well.

There are many reasons TWGMTR songs didn't stay in setlists for years and years, and not having a "hit single" is like #47 on that list, below things like Mike clearly having disdain for the whole project (he kept "Isn't It Time" in his setlist for a short time; not coincidentally one of the songs he wrote lyrics for), there not being a lot of extra room in either respective setlists, the general trend since the beginning of time that "new album" songs get mostly dropped very quickly, and so on.

That Mike would keep SIP tracks in the setlist for years (if not decades), and do "Duke of Earl" and dud tracks off his low-key solo albums (who's going to his shows asking for "Rockaway Beach"?) seems to prove a general lack of correlation between a song being a "hit" and being kept in the setlist.

How is the bolded portion of this reply true? If The Beach Boys released a single in 2012 that was catchy as heck and took everyone by storm, being played on the radio nonstop that Summer, streamed like crazy (maybe even picked up and put into a movie), itís definitely within the realm of possibility that they couldíve had a hit single. The simple fact is that they didnít, but that doesnít discredit the artist merit of that album! I love it.
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« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2022, 07:34:20 PM »


[/quote]

How is the bolded portion of this reply true? If The Beach Boys released a single in 2012 that was catchy as heck and took everyone by storm, being played on the radio nonstop that Summer, streamed like crazy (maybe even picked up and put into a movie), itís definitely within the realm of possibility that they couldíve had a hit single. The simple fact is that they didnít, but that doesnít discredit the artist merit of that album! I love it.
[/quote]

Even if theyíd released something as good as Wouldnít it Be Nice or California Girls, thereís no way what youíre describing could have happened. Radio wonít play music from 70-year-old musicians, boomers themselves are not interested in new music from old Sixties stars, and no young person will be caught dead playing/streaming music from old geezers.

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« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2022, 06:44:08 AM »

Just some perspective to consider: We're having this discussion about who would listen to "old" music in a year when Kate Bush and Metallica have had songs hit either the top or near the top of the most downloaded or streamed songs, and it's not people over 50 streaming those songs. It's mostly teenagers who watch Stranger Things. The Beach Boys' own California Dreamin climbed up the sales totals charts thanks to that show too, at this point it's among the most popular songs in the band's catalog, again thanks to that show.

More to the time before and shortly after TWGMTR, The Ink Spots of all groups saw a resurgence in sales thanks to the Fallout and Bioshock game franchises which used their music prominently. Again the main audience buying these songs from the 1940's was...teenagers and people in their early 20's.

In 2007, Journey's "Don't Stop Believing" was used in the Soprano's final episode, and immediately rose to the top of the download charts. Now the song is pretty much ubiquitous at weddings and events (and karaoke nights) whereas before it had been relegated mostly to pre-programmed classic rock radio playlists. And kids, yes kids, know all the lyrics.

Kids this year were buying and listening to "Danger Zone" by Kenny Loggins because of the Top Gun reboot.

Generally whenever you see a song start spiking in sales or when you hear teenagers talking about an old song that seemingly reappeared out of nowhere, it was either in a viral TikTok meme or featured somewhere like a video game or a TV show.

In the past year there have also been many reports in the media about "old" songs and albums outselling new music. The same classic albums that were stalwarts on the charts are still outselling a lot of new releases, especially in the vinyl market, as younger listeners buy the same albums for their collections as their parents and grandparents had done.

I just think the notions expressed about "old" music not being listened to by the kids should be reconsidered, not specifically in terms of the TWGMTR album but in general. If a song gets placed in a key TV show or video game (or movie), and the song isn't pure crap, chances are it too will go viral and younger listeners will add it to their playlist or even buy the vinyl if available.

Just food for thought. The music business shifted radically as we're all aware over the last 20 years, but the way in which it shifted (and how it affects the so-called 'charts' of old) still seems to be a mystery to those who used to control the music business. And trying to determine what "kids" listen to by suggesting they don't listen to old music is an opinion that could be reconsidered.

Not to mention the way various numbers posted by "modern" music could possibly be manipulated and controlled by various algorithms the same way Twitter numbers and stats were manipulated to show more followers and engagement for various accounts than actually existed. Or how YouTube created algorithms to manipulate viewer engagement and visibility for some accounts while burying others, which also led to artificial tallies of views and engagement numbers.
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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2022, 08:39:14 AM »

TWGMTR was specifically made for a group that ceased to exist after the C50 tour. There was no natural group to pick up and promote its songs, and some of them were difficult to re-create live. The title track nearly always sounded like a train wreck, and Isnít It Time was the only instance Iím ever familiar with where BW lip-synced (that incredibly exposed first verse).

Anyway, the Wilson-Paley material was and is fine. Some of it is great. I feel similarly about Imagination, although I think its high points are arguably ďpurerĒ expressions of Brianís creativity than anything he did with Andy. But itís not a contest. Someday I hope we get a good archival collection, along with a remixed GIOMH, all-instrumental BWPS, the full Scott Bennett demos,  the original mix of BWRG and all of the oldies he recorded at Gary Griffinís place.
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« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2022, 09:46:16 AM »

Just some perspective to consider: We're having this discussion about who would listen to "old" music in a year when Kate Bush and Metallica have had songs hit either the top or near the top of the most downloaded or streamed songs, and it's not people over 50 streaming those songs. It's mostly teenagers who watch Stranger Things. The Beach Boys' own California Dreamin climbed up the sales totals charts thanks to that show too, at this point it's among the most popular songs in the band's catalog, again thanks to that show.

More to the time before and shortly after TWGMTR, The Ink Spots of all groups saw a resurgence in sales thanks to the Fallout and Bioshock game franchises which used their music prominently. Again the main audience buying these songs from the 1940's was...teenagers and people in their early 20's.

In 2007, Journey's "Don't Stop Believing" was used in the Soprano's final episode, and immediately rose to the top of the download charts. Now the song is pretty much ubiquitous at weddings and events (and karaoke nights) whereas before it had been relegated mostly to pre-programmed classic rock radio playlists. And kids, yes kids, know all the lyrics.

Kids this year were buying and listening to "Danger Zone" by Kenny Loggins because of the Top Gun reboot.

Generally whenever you see a song start spiking in sales or when you hear teenagers talking about an old song that seemingly reappeared out of nowhere, it was either in a viral TikTok meme or featured somewhere like a video game or a TV show.

In the past year there have also been many reports in the media about "old" songs and albums outselling new music. The same classic albums that were stalwarts on the charts are still outselling a lot of new releases, especially in the vinyl market, as younger listeners buy the same albums for their collections as their parents and grandparents had done.

I just think the notions expressed about "old" music not being listened to by the kids should be reconsidered, not specifically in terms of the TWGMTR album but in general. If a song gets placed in a key TV show or video game (or movie), and the song isn't pure crap, chances are it too will go viral and younger listeners will add it to their playlist or even buy the vinyl if available.

Just food for thought. The music business shifted radically as we're all aware over the last 20 years, but the way in which it shifted (and how it affects the so-called 'charts' of old) still seems to be a mystery to those who used to control the music business. And trying to determine what "kids" listen to by suggesting they don't listen to old music is an opinion that could be reconsidered.

Not to mention the way various numbers posted by "modern" music could possibly be manipulated and controlled by various algorithms the same way Twitter numbers and stats were manipulated to show more followers and engagement for various accounts than actually existed. Or how YouTube created algorithms to manipulate viewer engagement and visibility for some accounts while burying others, which also led to artificial tallies of views and engagement numbers.

Great post, Craig, but hardly a surprise by you. Smiley
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kreen
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« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2022, 10:10:06 AM »

Just some perspective to consider: We're having this discussion about who would listen to "old" music in a year when Kate Bush and Metallica have had songs hit either the top or near the top of the most downloaded or streamed songs, and it's not people over 50 streaming those songs. It's mostly teenagers who watch Stranger Things. The Beach Boys' own California Dreamin climbed up the sales totals charts thanks to that show too, at this point it's among the most popular songs in the band's catalog, again thanks to that show.

More to the time before and shortly after TWGMTR, The Ink Spots of all groups saw a resurgence in sales thanks to the Fallout and Bioshock game franchises which used their music prominently. Again the main audience buying these songs from the 1940's was...teenagers and people in their early 20's.

In 2007, Journey's "Don't Stop Believing" was used in the Soprano's final episode, and immediately rose to the top of the download charts. Now the song is pretty much ubiquitous at weddings and events (and karaoke nights) whereas before it had been relegated mostly to pre-programmed classic rock radio playlists. And kids, yes kids, know all the lyrics.

Kids this year were buying and listening to "Danger Zone" by Kenny Loggins because of the Top Gun reboot.

Generally whenever you see a song start spiking in sales or when you hear teenagers talking about an old song that seemingly reappeared out of nowhere, it was either in a viral TikTok meme or featured somewhere like a video game or a TV show.

In the past year there have also been many reports in the media about "old" songs and albums outselling new music. The same classic albums that were stalwarts on the charts are still outselling a lot of new releases, especially in the vinyl market, as younger listeners buy the same albums for their collections as their parents and grandparents had done.

I just think the notions expressed about "old" music not being listened to by the kids should be reconsidered, not specifically in terms of the TWGMTR album but in general. If a song gets placed in a key TV show or video game (or movie), and the song isn't pure crap, chances are it too will go viral and younger listeners will add it to their playlist or even buy the vinyl if available.

Just food for thought. The music business shifted radically as we're all aware over the last 20 years, but the way in which it shifted (and how it affects the so-called 'charts' of old) still seems to be a mystery to those who used to control the music business. And trying to determine what "kids" listen to by suggesting they don't listen to old music is an opinion that could be reconsidered.

Not to mention the way various numbers posted by "modern" music could possibly be manipulated and controlled by various algorithms the same way Twitter numbers and stats were manipulated to show more followers and engagement for various accounts than actually existed. Or how YouTube created algorithms to manipulate viewer engagement and visibility for some accounts while burying others, which also led to artificial tallies of views and engagement numbers.

Yes, but those are all examples of old songs, of old hits, getting another 15 minutes in the spotlight through their use in a popular TV show on on some TikTok kid's channel. There are no recent examples that I can think of a NEW song by an old artist having any kind of commercial impact.
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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2022, 11:27:54 AM »

Isnít It Time was the only instance Iím ever familiar with where BW lip-synced (that incredibly exposed first verse).

Do you mean he lip-synced that verse during concert performances?
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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2022, 01:35:11 PM »

The problem is that none of these eras are comparable. The Beach Boys were *never* going to have a "hit single" in 2012. It just doesn't work that way. A good showing on the album charts and good album reviews was the *only* success their studio material was going to see in 2012. And given the status of things in 2012 (being a long dormant studio band while also having a "version" out on tour every year *not* doing new stuff, plus not a lot of push from the label), the album did quite well.

There are many reasons TWGMTR songs didn't stay in setlists for years and years, and not having a "hit single" is like #47 on that list, below things like Mike clearly having disdain for the whole project (he kept "Isn't It Time" in his setlist for a short time; not coincidentally one of the songs he wrote lyrics for), there not being a lot of extra room in either respective setlists, the general trend since the beginning of time that "new album" songs get mostly dropped very quickly, and so on.

That Mike would keep SIP tracks in the setlist for years (if not decades), and do "Duke of Earl" and dud tracks off his low-key solo albums (who's going to his shows asking for "Rockaway Beach"?) seems to prove a general lack of correlation between a song being a "hit" and being kept in the setlist.

How is the bolded portion of this reply true? If The Beach Boys released a single in 2012 that was catchy as heck and took everyone by storm, being played on the radio nonstop that Summer, streamed like crazy (maybe even picked up and put into a movie), itís definitely within the realm of possibility that they couldíve had a hit single. The simple fact is that they didnít, but that doesnít discredit the artist merit of that album! I love it.

This has kinda already been answered by kreen, but what I mean is that radio doesnít (and wasnít in 2012) playing new songs from 60s bands. Even bands that have good-selling, critically successful albums. Not literally; Iím sure some station somewhere played a song off TWGMTR here and there. But ďradioĒ (and also digital sales and streaming) in 2012 (and certainly in 2022) didnít work like it did in even 1988, or the 80s or 70s, etc.

The chances of the BBs having a hit *SINGLE* were marginal past the 60s. They did it a hand full of times after that. That already-marginal chance became much, much smaller by 2012 due both to the vast changes in the industry and how people consume music, and also because the Beach Boys werenít much of a functioning ďstudio bandĒ that released studio music in the previous couple of decades. Look at people like McCartney, who has had high-charting albums in the 90s, 00s, and 2010s, yet rarely has any action on the singles charts. Maybe some sort of action on one of the second-tier charts.

Iíve said before that the only way the Beach Boys would had a ďhit songĒ or ďhit singleĒ in 2012 or today would have been some sort of ďviralĒ thing, where it would be almost a fluke and/or some sort of novelty. Thereís obviously never *zero* chance.

TWGMTR was a good album. If the band in 2012 had wanted some sort of measurable ďsuccessĒ, it would be with chart placement and sales for *albums*, and then things like Grammy noms. It didnít get any Grammy noms. Iíd guess the album still wasnít quite good enough to warrant that, and the wonky nature of the reunion and its amateur aftermath certainly didnít help any Grammy campaigns.
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« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2022, 01:44:08 PM »

What transpired in 1998 happened because Carl wasn't there to object.

I'll be honest tho, I really don't have the energy to pursue this particular topic further...

I totally understand; it's a difficult topic and we only have scattered information.

But Carl and Al's position in the band is germane to the Paley material.

For what it's worth, while obviously a lot transpired after Carl was no longer there to object, and of course then after his death, it is my understanding that machinations on the business side were going on while Carl was still active with the band and touring, and possibly even before his 1996 diagnosis.

The Mike-Al issues clearly didn't *start* in 1997/98; they had been festering for some time. Peter Ames Carlin reports in his book that there was a supposed attempt to oust Al from the band in *1990*, and clearly by the "Summer in Paradise" era there was some strain as well, as even Mike mentioned in interviews at the time. And again, as mentioned in the Marks/Stebbins book, Mike was seeking out David Marks in 1997 while Carl was still touring, and was seeking David out as a potential replacement *for Al*, not for Carl.

We don't know precisely how much Carl knew or how much he was involved. But Al himself mentioned in interviews that he and Carl disagreed on at least some business points (supposedly one specifically being Mike's production company taking over running the tours). This is important because this set the stage for the scenario where everybody in the band then becomes "employees" of the company running the tour. I'm guessing Al knew at this stage that, while he couldn't be ousted as a shareholder of BRI, changing the the set up of the touring band so that Al (or anyone) could be fired by a third-party production company, would make it functionally much easier to squeeze someone out.

Back to the Paley material; I think some of this (and certainly some continuing Mike-Al strain) was at play during the period they would have been working on the stuff. The momentum of touring and bringing money in was keeping everything going and keeping everyone together, but it was obviously becoming more and more shaky over time.

In a scenario where a member's company begins producing the "Beach Boys" tours, and other members are then gone from that band, this obviously impacts "Beach Boys" studio material, because there is no longer even a semblance (including legally) of a band to record under the name.
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« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2022, 01:46:54 PM »

It always seemed to me that for too many people in Beach Boys "fandom" artistic merit is measured by commercial success. This thread is a confirmation of that. Not that a confirmation was needed.
Instead, I am that rare weird dinosaur who likes music for personal reasons, regardless of how many people are in the bandwagon.
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« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2022, 02:42:51 PM »

Isnít It Time was the only instance Iím ever familiar with where BW lip-synced (that incredibly exposed first verse).

Do you mean he lip-synced that verse during concert performances?

Never had confirmation, but it was always suspiciously in tune and on time.
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« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2022, 05:56:01 PM »

Just some perspective to consider: We're having this discussion about who would listen to "old" music in a year when Kate Bush and Metallica have had songs hit either the top or near the top of the most downloaded or streamed songs, and it's not people over 50 streaming those songs. It's mostly teenagers who watch Stranger Things. The Beach Boys' own California Dreamin climbed up the sales totals charts thanks to that show too, at this point it's among the most popular songs in the band's catalog, again thanks to that show.

More to the time before and shortly after TWGMTR, The Ink Spots of all groups saw a resurgence in sales thanks to the Fallout and Bioshock game franchises which used their music prominently. Again the main audience buying these songs from the 1940's was...teenagers and people in their early 20's.

In 2007, Journey's "Don't Stop Believing" was used in the Soprano's final episode, and immediately rose to the top of the download charts. Now the song is pretty much ubiquitous at weddings and events (and karaoke nights) whereas before it had been relegated mostly to pre-programmed classic rock radio playlists. And kids, yes kids, know all the lyrics.

Kids this year were buying and listening to "Danger Zone" by Kenny Loggins because of the Top Gun reboot.

Generally whenever you see a song start spiking in sales or when you hear teenagers talking about an old song that seemingly reappeared out of nowhere, it was either in a viral TikTok meme or featured somewhere like a video game or a TV show.

In the past year there have also been many reports in the media about "old" songs and albums outselling new music. The same classic albums that were stalwarts on the charts are still outselling a lot of new releases, especially in the vinyl market, as younger listeners buy the same albums for their collections as their parents and grandparents had done.

I just think the notions expressed about "old" music not being listened to by the kids should be reconsidered, not specifically in terms of the TWGMTR album but in general. If a song gets placed in a key TV show or video game (or movie), and the song isn't pure crap, chances are it too will go viral and younger listeners will add it to their playlist or even buy the vinyl if available.

Just food for thought. The music business shifted radically as we're all aware over the last 20 years, but the way in which it shifted (and how it affects the so-called 'charts' of old) still seems to be a mystery to those who used to control the music business. And trying to determine what "kids" listen to by suggesting they don't listen to old music is an opinion that could be reconsidered.

Not to mention the way various numbers posted by "modern" music could possibly be manipulated and controlled by various algorithms the same way Twitter numbers and stats were manipulated to show more followers and engagement for various accounts than actually existed. Or how YouTube created algorithms to manipulate viewer engagement and visibility for some accounts while burying others, which also led to artificial tallies of views and engagement numbers.

Yes, but those are all examples of old songs, of old hits, getting another 15 minutes in the spotlight through their use in a popular TV show on on some TikTok kid's channel. There are no recent examples that I can think of a NEW song by an old artist having any kind of commercial impact.

I was replying to your comment in bold:


Even if theyíd released something as good as Wouldnít it Be Nice or California Girls, thereís no way what youíre describing could have happened. Radio wonít play music from 70-year-old musicians, boomers themselves are not interested in new music from old Sixties stars, and no young person will be caught dead playing/streaming music from old geezers.


That's far from the case at least in my experiences.
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« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2022, 06:09:40 PM »

I just wanted to point out how much in agreement I am with both Rab and Jim V and what they posted above. I just cannot understand why fans of a band, any band, would try to diminish the accomplishment of that band scoring a top-5 album. Yes I understand the in's and out's of chart placement and the data that goes into those charts, but damn at some point you have to see the perspective as Jim did and ask if it were so easy to score a top-5 or even top-50 album according to the reasoning being listed above, then why haven't all "legacy" bands and artists scored a top-5 album?Why didn't "Unleash The Love" go top-5 if it were a case of the calculations behind the album charts and the diehard fans coming out the first week to binge on buying the album? Obviously more than the diehard fan base bought TWGMTR, otherwise it would have hit the charts around 78 or something instead of number 3.

I don't understand why there can't just be a pat on the back moment, a collective high-five, saying how cool it was for them to score a top-5 album instead of the parsing and explaining away what most artists would consider a great achievement, especially one that basically caps off their long career. Sometimes you just have to enjoy the sandwich instead of finding things to complain about. And as Jim suggested, if the Love solo album had hit number 3, there would be champagne corks flying everywhere. But not for TWGMTR? I don't get it.

And as far as trying to state almost as fact that no one would buy or stream or download any release...do you guys have a crystal ball to predict such things? If the "new" music business of the past 15-20 years has shown us anything, it's that social media is perhaps a more powerful vehicle to sell music than any DJ in the golden era would have been. Just ask Fleetwood Mac. Some random dude posts a reaction video to a Fleetwood Mac song, it goes viral, and the band has a hit with a song from the 70's out of nowhere.

Now labels are probably trying to replicate that, and probably finding that it doesn't work because they missed the killer app of the original viral video that reignited interest in the song and Fleetwood Mac overall: the authenticity of the guy who posted it.

Tell me that anyone in the record business can predict things like that happening. I'm sure they'd love to with all their focus-groups and research, but truth is they can't, and therefore to just totally rule out this happening to a group like the Beach Boys instead of Journey, or Fleetwood Mac, or Kate Bush, or any others seems a little misplaced. 
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« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2022, 07:57:44 PM »

Isnít It Time was the only instance Iím ever familiar with where BW lip-synced (that incredibly exposed first verse).

Do you mean he lip-synced that verse during concert performances?

Never had confirmation, but it was always suspiciously in tune and on time.

Not always! And if so, either multiple different recordings were used, or the pre-recording stopped around the time Melodyne wasnít being used
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« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2022, 06:54:09 AM »

It always seemed to me that for too many people in Beach Boys "fandom" artistic merit is measured by commercial success. This thread is a confirmation of that. Not that a confirmation was needed.
Instead, I am that rare weird dinosaur who likes music for personal reasons, regardless of how many people are in the same wagon.

This board has always been the exact opposite of this. It's full of fans who like weird, arcane, often *very* non-commercial stuff.

The vast majority of fans here have always lamented the emphasis on what's "commercial", what's the "formula."

What you're seeing (I guess; I'm not sure exactly which part of the thread you're referring to) is a discussion of the realities of the commercial/business side of things, and how that *does* have an impact on what actually gets released. Saying "X would have gotten them a Grammy nomination" or "Releasing Y would have bombed hard" is just another insight into the band; it's not a judgment on what music we each personally like.

I'm fascinated with and enjoy the weird rabbit hole that is early 80s Beach Boys music. I also know from a more objective point of view that it's some of their often wonkiest material. I've often mentioned that I'd love a 10-disc boxed set of the stuff, and I've also mentioned that fan-made track listings for theoretical "1982 Beach Boys Albums" would have still been really weak albums that probably would have been rejected by the label.

A discussion of the band becomes boring if *all* we do is name what music we like and don't like. In discussing this band's history, commercial success (and lack of success) at various junctures absolutely impacted their story on multiple levels. It doesn't mean in impacts how we *feel* about the music, or how much we each individually enjoy it.

If a fan says they like "Saturday Morning in the City", then cool. If they say "Saturday Morning in the City should have been a lead single off a new album", then that opens up a whole other conversation.

To be frank, I find it kind of condescending to drop into a thread and claim "I'm the rare person that actually likes music for personal reasons", as if the board is running rampant with like ex-1960s Capitol Records executives looking for the next "Fun Fun Fun." This board has been around for 17 years doing dozens of pages on the "Cocaine Tape" and the most intricate minutia of "Smile" sessions, and everything in between.

Threads about which of the five mixes of "Everything I Need" are the best or a thread trying to research a random 1982 session at Rumbo are not happening because people here have any sort of emphasis on what's "commercial."
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« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2022, 07:01:52 AM »

I just wanted to point out how much in agreement I am with both Rab and Jim V and what they posted above. I just cannot understand why fans of a band, any band, would try to diminish the accomplishment of that band scoring a top-5 album. Yes I understand the in's and out's of chart placement and the data that goes into those charts, but damn at some point you have to see the perspective as Jim did and ask if it were so easy to score a top-5 or even top-50 album according to the reasoning being listed above, then why haven't all "legacy" bands and artists scored a top-5 album?Why didn't "Unleash The Love" go top-5 if it were a case of the calculations behind the album charts and the diehard fans coming out the first week to binge on buying the album? Obviously more than the diehard fan base bought TWGMTR, otherwise it would have hit the charts around 78 or something instead of number 3.

I don't understand why there can't just be a pat on the back moment, a collective high-five, saying how cool it was for them to score a top-5 album instead of the parsing and explaining away what most artists would consider a great achievement, especially one that basically caps off their long career. Sometimes you just have to enjoy the sandwich instead of finding things to complain about. And as Jim suggested, if the Love solo album had hit number 3, there would be champagne corks flying everywhere. But not for TWGMTR? I don't get it.

And as far as trying to state almost as fact that no one would buy or stream or download any release...do you guys have a crystal ball to predict such things? If the "new" music business of the past 15-20 years has shown us anything, it's that social media is perhaps a more powerful vehicle to sell music than any DJ in the golden era would have been. Just ask Fleetwood Mac. Some random dude posts a reaction video to a Fleetwood Mac song, it goes viral, and the band has a hit with a song from the 70's out of nowhere.

Now labels are probably trying to replicate that, and probably finding that it doesn't work because they missed the killer app of the original viral video that reignited interest in the song and Fleetwood Mac overall: the authenticity of the guy who posted it.

Tell me that anyone in the record business can predict things like that happening. I'm sure they'd love to with all their focus-groups and research, but truth is they can't, and therefore to just totally rule out this happening to a group like the Beach Boys instead of Journey, or Fleetwood Mac, or Kate Bush, or any others seems a little misplaced. 

This, a million time this! Though commercial success is worth less than zero in my book, regarding artistic value of anything, still I (metaphorically) jumped out of joy when reading that the Beach Boys, the band who conquered me almost sixty years ago and never really let go, had gone to #3 in 2012. How can any fan feel otherwise?
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« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2022, 07:27:40 AM »

It always seemed to me that for too many people in Beach Boys "fandom" artistic merit is measured by commercial success. This thread is a confirmation of that. Not that a confirmation was needed.
Instead, I am that rare weird dinosaur who likes music for personal reasons, regardless of how many people are in the same wagon.

This board has always been the exact opposite of this. It's full of fans who like weird, arcane, often *very* non-commercial stuff.

The vast majority of fans here have always lamented the emphasis on what's "commercial", what's the "formula."

What you're seeing (I guess; I'm not sure exactly which part of the thread you're referring to) is a discussion of the realities of the commercial/business side of things, and how that *does* have an impact on what actually gets released. Saying "X would have gotten them a Grammy nomination" or "Releasing Y would have bombed hard" is just another insight into the band; it's not a judgment on what music we each personally like.

I'm fascinated with and enjoy the weird rabbit hole that is early 80s Beach Boys music. I also know from a more objective point of view that it's some of their often wonkiest material. I've often mentioned that I'd love a 10-disc boxed set of the stuff, and I've also mentioned that fan-made track listings for theoretical "1982 Beach Boys Albums" would have still been really weak albums that probably would have been rejected by the label.

A discussion of the band becomes boring if *all* we do is name what music we like and don't like. In discussing this band's history, commercial success (and lack of success) at various junctures absolutely impacted their story on multiple levels. It doesn't mean in impacts how we *feel* about the music, or how much we each individually enjoy it.

If a fan says they like "Saturday Morning in the City", then cool. If they say "Saturday Morning in the City should have been a lead single off a new album", then that opens up a whole other conversation.

To be frank, I find it kind of condescending to drop into a thread and claim "I'm the rare person that actually likes music for personal reasons", as if the board is running rampant with like ex-1960s Capitol Records executives looking for the next "Fun Fun Fun." This board has been around for 17 years doing dozens of pages on the "Cocaine Tape" and the most intricate minutia of "Smile" sessions, and everything in between.

Threads about which of the five mixes of "Everything I Need" are the best or a thread trying to research a random 1982 session at Rumbo are not happening because people here have any sort of emphasis on what's "commercial."

Yes, sorry for exaggerating as I did in that post. I am a bit frustrated, both by the overall tone of the thread before it was hijacked by other subjects (I sincerely thought the WP sessions were more loved), and by the discussion about TWGMTR.
However, though I agree with much of what you said, all too often discussions about the Beach Boys include several comments of the kind: "Yes, I sort of like that, but it never went past #153", or did but only for one week, and so on. And almost always those comments seem aimed at diminishing the value of an album, or song, or group or songs. The discussion about TWGMTR is a sterling example.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 01:24:30 AM by Zenobi » Logged
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« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2022, 06:00:01 AM »

I don't understand why there can't just be a pat on the back moment, a collective high-five, saying how cool it was for them to score a top-5 album instead of the parsing and explaining away what most artists would consider a great achievement, especially one that basically caps off their long career. Sometimes you just have to enjoy the sandwich instead of finding things to complain about.

It's odd to me as well. Here is why:

With all the pre-orders being counted in the first week of release, yes, any older pop/rock act is nearly guaranteed a strong first week. Bob Dylan had 3 #1 albums in the 70's - Planet Waves, Blood on the Tracks, Desire - and then nothing until Modern Times and Together Through Life in the 00's. Do I believe either of those albums sold as well as his classics? No.
So having a top 5 album in the 2010's is a nice feather in the caps of the Beach Boys, but it's not the same as Endless Summer and Spirit of America being hits in the mid 70's. It doesn't put TWGMTR on the same level as Beach Boys Today or Pet Sounds.

The Beach Boys are a band that created most of their hits/recognized songs 50+ years ago. They made an album 50 years after their formation called TWGMTR. TWGMTR came after decades of massive musical trend shifts in pop music, changes in social culture, massive changes in the way people consume media. Even through the decades of culture shift and evolving music trends, TWGMTR placed #3 it's first week and it stayed in the top 200 for 8 weeks. Just think about that: 50 years is nearly the time it took us to fly the first canvas winged airplane to landing a man on the moon. 50 years is a HUGE stretch of time culturally and technologically speaking (especially in the last 200 years).

Also, did TWGMTR's chart placement have anything to do with the quality of the music? Well, 2012 was well into an era where you could easily listen to samples of each song before you buy (on both Amazon and iTunes). The lead single peaked at #16 on the Billboard singles sales (and was later named the 30th best song of 2012 by Rolling Stone). So I think people had a pretty good idea that it was a quality album, they bought it, and it landed at #3. Obviously if the album were a clunker it would not have sold as well.

So if anything, with all of that in mind, that chart placement is a huge accomplishment. And I don't think anyone is claiming this chart position places TWGMTR on the same pedestal as Pet Sounds. But even if they were, the mention of the chart placement also shouldn't elicit an equally ridiculous response of feeling embarrassment or cringe.

To sum it all up, I don't think the measure of a successful album (from a 50 year old band) in 2012 should be based on how many people shout to hear 'Isn't It Time' in concert 10 years later, or if it sold more units than BB85. In 40 years, if Justin Bieber makes an album that hits #3 on the charts I will be just as impressed. Because in 40 years musical trends will have shifted so much further, social culture will have shifted so much further, that to still have an influence on charts 50 years after your initial breakthrough is a huge achievement and hearing someone mention it is nothing to cringe at.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 06:07:48 AM by rab2591 » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2022, 06:18:13 AM »

Isnít It Time was the only instance Iím ever familiar with where BW lip-synced (that incredibly exposed first verse).

Do you mean he lip-synced that verse during concert performances?

Never had confirmation, but it was always suspiciously in tune and on time.

Not always! And if so, either multiple different recordings were used, or the pre-recording stopped around the time Melodyne wasnít being used

I'd be glad to be wrong on this! But it seemed like something was always a bit off with performances of that.
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« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2022, 06:57:38 AM »

Regarding "Isn't It Time" on the 2012 tour; every recording I've heard (both audience and soundboard) as well as my own in-person experience, seemed to indicate there were pre-recorded elements being used, especially noticeable on the intro. It was always difficult to discern, because they were playing live on top of it as well.

Whether they were literally just grabbing like stems from the album recording, or some other pre-recorded elements, I'm not sure.

They added it to the tour setlist a month into the reunion tour. Then, soon after, they also prepped that weird "Single Mix" of the song (as I recall re-recording some elements of that literally while they were out on tour), and then changed their live rendition over to match that "Single" version.
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« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2022, 07:38:16 AM »

This reminded, however, that I did not "drop into" this thread like some kind of unwelcome alien. I started the darn thing. If I am an alien, I am the one who landed the UFO.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 01:21:48 AM by Zenobi » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2022, 07:51:50 AM »

Back on topic (kinda), I am sure that even the worst anti-Beach Boys and anti-Brian Wilson trolls should wish very long life to their music. Because when it should be forgotten, that would mean civilisation has completely ended.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 07:53:35 AM by Zenobi » Logged
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