gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
673067 Posts in 27119 Topics by 3988 Members - Latest Member: davidTN December 06, 2021, 01:32:24 AM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Howie Edelson Talks Brian's 1971 "Sail on Sailor" Demo & "Carl's Song"  (Read 3684 times)
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9456



View Profile WWW
« on: July 28, 2021, 06:16:42 AM »

There's a new interview with Howie by Ken Sharp in the new Goldmine (from a longer interview coming soon) discussing "Feel Flows" and Howie also touches on other "Holy Grail" tracks in the catalog and discusses a couple that he's heard: Brian's 1971 "Sail on Sailor" demo and the '75 track "Carl's Song" (alternatively known as "It Could Be Anything").

Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9648


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2021, 08:14:08 AM »

Very nice, looking forward to reading the full interview!

Speaking of the "let's get it out there" spirit Howie mentioned regarding unreleased material, I wish that same initiative were applied to the 45+ minutes of Good Vibrations session film from '66 that exists and has only been teased to fans with about 5 minutes worth of clips since 2012. Let's get it out there for everyone to enjoy.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9456



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2021, 09:08:25 AM »

Even though we all already knew this, it sounds like there is plenty of jaw-dropping material for the *next* set after "Feel Flows", and beyond.

I think it's difficult, especially for non-hardcore fans, to truly understand the depth of the BB archives. I honestly can't think of another case, in popular recorded music, or even in other fields like film, of *this much* A-quality material over the span of *years and decades* being left collecting dust in vaults *for decades*. It's so crazy, I can't even think of something that comes close.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9648


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2021, 09:19:21 AM »

Wondering if the "Sail On Sailor" tape mentioned is the original songwriting tape with Van Dyke Parks where Brian is heard asking Van Dyke to hypnotize him, or another possibly later demo run-though of the song? That "hypnotize me" tape has definitely been a holy grail for a lot of people since it was written about in the 70's.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 09:19:58 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5723



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2021, 09:20:36 AM »

Even though we all already knew this, it sounds like there is plenty of jaw-dropping material for the *next* set after "Feel Flows", and beyond.

I think it's difficult, especially for non-hardcore fans, to truly understand the depth of the BB archives. I honestly can't think of another case, in popular recorded music, or even in other fields like film, of *this much* A-quality material over the span of *years and decades* being left collecting dust in vaults *for decades*. It's so crazy, I can't even think of something that comes close.

!!!!

wow.
Logged
phirnis
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 2571



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2021, 09:58:40 AM »

Loved the bit about "Sail On, Sailor"! Someone should collect all the different lyrics that were written for this song until it got released.
Logged
WillJC
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 454


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2021, 10:05:54 AM »

Wondering if the "Sail On Sailor" tape mentioned is the original songwriting tape with Van Dyke Parks where Brian is heard asking Van Dyke to hypnotize him, or another possibly later demo run-though of the song? That "hypnotize me" tape has definitely been a holy grail for a lot of people since it was written about in the 70's.

The "hypnotize me" dialogue was supposedly an invention of the original keeper of the tape. But it is that tape.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 10:54:16 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
Howie Edelson
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 645


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2021, 10:16:20 AM »

Not an invention.
Logged
Greg Parry
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 108



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2021, 10:24:26 AM »

Not an invention.

Cut the crap Brian?
Logged
WillJC
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 454


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2021, 10:53:06 AM »

The originator of the story recently claimed that he'd made up the conversation for his own amusement. So that he'd made it up for his own amusement was made up for his own amusement and it's all really there?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 10:57:52 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
Rocker
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 10100


"Too dumb for New York City, too ugly for L.A."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2021, 11:13:59 AM »

Great stuff! Would love to hear how "Won't you tell me" and "It's natural" where brought to BRI.
Logged

a diseased bunch of mo'fos if there ever was oneÖ their beauty is so awesome that listening to them at their best is like being in some vast dream cathedral decorated with a thousand gleaming American pop culture icons.

- Lester Bangs on The Beach Boys


PRO SHOT BEACH BOYS CONCERTS - LIST


To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.

- Jack Rieley
Howie Edelson
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 645


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2021, 11:18:31 AM »

"Hypnotize me" certainly is.
Logged
terrei
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 121


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2021, 11:36:27 AM »

"Sun Flower 16 track master reel"? Didn't Desper say that it didn't exist?
Logged
WillJC
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 454


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2021, 11:38:29 AM »

"Hypnotize me" certainly is.

Great to hear. (That was coming from Berson, by the way. Odd.)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 11:39:21 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
WillJC
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 454


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2021, 11:48:55 AM »

"Sun Flower 16 track master reel"? Didn't Desper say that it didn't exist?

I think Desper might've denied that there was ever a fourteen-song 'Sun Flower' album assembly of the above titles submitted to Reprise as reported by some authors - there wasn't, and the list comes from one of two comp reels containing the 16-trk masters for the project, seen in picture.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 11:49:34 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
All Summer Long
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 445



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2021, 11:57:24 AM »

As a somewhat new hardcore fan who hasnít heard many bootlegs or rare songs because Iím on the younger side, I still have a hard time processing the greatness that you all have said lies in the vaults.

Also, so I guess Carlís Song isnít Angel Come Home? It Could Be Anything is the same song re-recorded and left unissued during the LA a Sessions right? Howie, could some of the song have started in Ď74, or did Carl just invite Ricky over? Also, Iím assuming the owner of the ďhypnotize meĒ tape wanted too much money from BRI and thatís why itís not on Feel Flows?
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9648


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2021, 12:16:14 PM »

Also, Iím assuming the owner of the ďhypnotize meĒ tape wanted too much money from BRI and thatís why itís not on Feel Flows?

Since "Sail On Sailor" was the keystone and standout commercial song of the Holland album, it's probably a better fit for something covering that era.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 12:16:53 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9456



View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2021, 12:26:23 PM »

Also, Iím assuming the owner of the ďhypnotize meĒ tape wanted too much money from BRI and thatís why itís not on Feel Flows?

Since "Sail On Sailor" was the keystone and standout commercial song of the Holland album, it's probably a better fit for something covering that era.

Exactly; and because it's an already-released title, it didn't need to be "copyright extension" protected by a certain date.

A "Sail on Sailor" demo would undoubtedly be a great centerpiece to a future 72/73 boxed set.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Jim V.
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2969



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2021, 11:17:00 PM »

I must say, I feel a bit conflicted about the "Sail On Sailor" demo. Apparently Brian was in a bad place when he recorded this, and I'm not sure if I will feel like an intruder of this does indeed get released. Perhaps Howie could put my mind at ease. The vibe around that one for years has always been one of a pretty emotional, sad part of Brian's story. Hearing it exists and actually has a real performance from Brian is really something though.

As far as what Howie wished he had found, but hadn't, it's almost kinda crazy that instead of coming up with a wishlist he actually listed off actual tracks. Once again demonstrating how much great material is still lurking in the vaults, even after we get Feel Flows in a few weeks.

While we are at it though, anybody have anything that they think might not actually be in the vaults but have hopes for to be found? I think my choices of now would be the supposed medley of "Baby I Need Your Lovin'" with "Gimme Some Lovin'" that Brian and David Sandler did in '72 (?), "Come to the Sunshine" from '75 and "Just an Imitation" from '74. I'm not sure either the medley nor the Van Dyke Parks cover are in the vaults, while my suspicion on "Just an Imitation" is that while it was definitely composed by Brian, it may never have been recorded in any form. Regardless, judging by Howie's continued excitement about what's left in the vault, I'm excited about the possibility of more new Beach Boys releases.
Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4909


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2021, 03:31:29 AM »

Also, Iím assuming the owner of the ďhypnotize meĒ tape wanted too much money from BRI and thatís why itís not on Feel Flows?

Since "Sail On Sailor" was the keystone and standout commercial song of the Holland album, it's probably a better fit for something covering that era.

Exactly; and because it's an already-released title, it didn't need to be "copyright extension" protected by a certain date.

A "Sail on Sailor" demo would undoubtedly be a great centerpiece to a future 72/73 boxed set.

Well...a "SOS" home demo recording is not the same as material from the "SOS" studio session, and therefore probably DOES need copyright extension protection - just like live recordings of already-released songs do. And a "SOS" home demo recording from 1971 should be released this year to ensure it.
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9456



View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2021, 06:20:37 AM »

Also, Iím assuming the owner of the ďhypnotize meĒ tape wanted too much money from BRI and thatís why itís not on Feel Flows?

Since "Sail On Sailor" was the keystone and standout commercial song of the Holland album, it's probably a better fit for something covering that era.

Exactly; and because it's an already-released title, it didn't need to be "copyright extension" protected by a certain date.

A "Sail on Sailor" demo would undoubtedly be a great centerpiece to a future 72/73 boxed set.

Well...a "SOS" home demo recording is not the same as material from the "SOS" studio session, and therefore probably DOES need copyright extension protection - just like live recordings of already-released songs do. And a "SOS" home demo recording from 1971 should be released this year to ensure it.

I've heard conflicting interpretations of the copyright law when it comes to this. There is no precise clarity to this, because we can't precisely define what material is, for instance, a studio session that leads up to the finished master. Which studio tapes would *not* need to be protected? What if it's a demo, but recorded in a studio? What if there is a studio session for "Sail on Sailor" from 1966? Is that still considered a "work" part on the way to the finished master?

I don't think a "home demo" versus a "studio demo" can even be delineated or differentiated, especially when it comes to Brian and the band during this time, where their studio was literally in Brian's home!

From everything I've been able to tell, it's unique song titles that need to be protected. One interpretation is that any "work" material on the way to a master that's already been released would be protected, and this would, in this scenario, include both home or studio demos, as well as studio work. And would not include live concert recordings.

However, even if something does need to be protected, we've now learned after last year that dumping 30-second samples of songs online for five minutes and then pulling them constitutes "publishing" the material. So either way, I wouldn't expect we're going to see a full "Sail on Sailor" demo in 2021. I obviously won't complain if we do!
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
WillJC
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 454


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2021, 07:16:58 AM »


Also, so I guess Carlís Song isnít Angel Come Home? It Could Be Anything is the same song re-recorded and left unissued during the LA a Sessions right? Howie, could some of the song have started in Ď74, or did Carl just invite Ricky over?

Ricky would still play on Carl and Dennis' sessions after he'd quit the group, if available and asked.

There are two things called "Carl's Song" from the '74-'75 window (because Carl couldn't title something to save his life): one an early Angel and the other an early It Could Be Anything. Neither received lyrics or a title until Carl's collaboration with Geoffrey Cushing-Murray in '78. The track bootlegged as "Carl's Song" is something else, I think from the LA period itself. Not certain about that.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 07:24:25 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9648


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2021, 01:17:29 PM »

Also, Iím assuming the owner of the ďhypnotize meĒ tape wanted too much money from BRI and thatís why itís not on Feel Flows?

Since "Sail On Sailor" was the keystone and standout commercial song of the Holland album, it's probably a better fit for something covering that era.

Exactly; and because it's an already-released title, it didn't need to be "copyright extension" protected by a certain date.

A "Sail on Sailor" demo would undoubtedly be a great centerpiece to a future 72/73 boxed set.

Well...a "SOS" home demo recording is not the same as material from the "SOS" studio session, and therefore probably DOES need copyright extension protection - just like live recordings of already-released songs do. And a "SOS" home demo recording from 1971 should be released this year to ensure it.

I've heard conflicting interpretations of the copyright law when it comes to this. There is no precise clarity to this, because we can't precisely define what material is, for instance, a studio session that leads up to the finished master. Which studio tapes would *not* need to be protected? What if it's a demo, but recorded in a studio? What if there is a studio session for "Sail on Sailor" from 1966? Is that still considered a "work" part on the way to the finished master?

I don't think a "home demo" versus a "studio demo" can even be delineated or differentiated, especially when it comes to Brian and the band during this time, where their studio was literally in Brian's home!

From everything I've been able to tell, it's unique song titles that need to be protected. One interpretation is that any "work" material on the way to a master that's already been released would be protected, and this would, in this scenario, include both home or studio demos, as well as studio work. And would not include live concert recordings.

However, even if something does need to be protected, we've now learned after last year that dumping 30-second samples of songs online for five minutes and then pulling them constitutes "publishing" the material. So either way, I wouldn't expect we're going to see a full "Sail on Sailor" demo in 2021. I obviously won't complain if we do!

I won't complain either! Fans have been waiting decades to hear the SOS demo, now is a great time to unveil it to the public.

This does indeed bring up an interesting aspect of copyright law, and how the recent copyright extension provisions fall into place within the existing laws. There are (or were) for decades two main types of copyright for songs, one was for the sound recording itself (form SR used to be the filing form) and the other was for the song itself, which would often mean sending in a lead sheet and/or a lyric sheet to establish when the song was created. So there were two possible copyrights for any song, both could be filed if that owner wanted to also seal in the recording so no one else could file a claim on the recording and the sound of that song when recorded.

So here is Sail On Sailor...a demo made before various other writers contributed and were credited for their contributions to what became the final product. And then, that more finalized version of the song itself, for which a lead sheet and lyric sheet could be created. Then after that, there is the demo recording which sounds different from the final released version, and then the final released version.

And that doesn't even factor in the publishing and royalty areas for filings with BMI or ASCAP, and the writers' claim filings for all those who contributed to it.

It is something that I really don't know how it would be factored into the new laws and how something like the Sail On Sailor demo would fall into those categories. If the song itself was copywritten at the time of creation, that should cover it and all future claims on that song. If changes were made later by various outside cowriters, were the changes enough to warrant a new or revised copyright filing? Then the demo, usually demo recordings would probably not be copywritten as a sound recording unless the actual music and lyric copyright wasn't full enough to cover it, or something inherent in the demo recording was unique enough to file both forms. And then the final recording would probably have its own SR sound recording copyright because that protects the sounds of the song as recorded so no one can steal the sounds and feels on that recording.

So yeah, my head is spinning. I can see where a copyright on the demo might need to fall under the extension process, but not if the song itself is already copywritten through the released version. No one can nick those lyrics or those notes played in that sequence, so it should fall under the original copyright. But how about the recording of the demo itself? I'm sure that could be copywritten as a unique sound recording for release purposes without having to be part of the extension process.

That's why they have lawyers who specialize in this bull***t.  Grin
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9456



View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2021, 02:42:40 PM »

I would also reiterate that if we were to get a 72/73 "So Tough/Holland" focused set, then a legendary, holy grail demo of "Sail on Sailor" would make sense as a centerpiece of such a collection.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Tony S
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2021, 06:31:15 PM »

If only SOS with Dennis on lead vocals had been saved. I always have hope that o every it may actually surface.
Logged
gfx
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.398 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!